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Nancy Grace
Kardashian Reality Star in a Coma. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired October 14, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news right now, live to Nevada. Reality star husband of Khloe Kardashian Lamar Odom at this hour fighting for his
life after he is found face down, unconscious, mucus pouring out of his mouth and nose at the so-called Love Ranch, a Nevada brothel, prostitutes.
When Odom`s 6-10 frame would not fit in a chopper, he`s raced to a Vegas hospital.
Bombshell now. Reports the NBA star, Kardashian husband on a respirator, in heart failure, liver and kidneys shutting down, his dad
claiming somebody drugged him.
More reports Odom goes, quote, "off the rails" over the reality hit "Keeping up With the Kardashians," seen here from E, and the way he was
portrayed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: NBA star turned reality star Lamar Odom is fighting for his life after being found unconscious at a Nevada brothel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ambulance came, police came, took him to the hospital.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m really on high alert for Lamar because, I mean, anything I think will set him to spiral, and that`s kind of the last
thing I want for him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That from E`s "Keeping up With the Kardashians,."
And live, Albuquerque, caught on video, a baby sitter dangerously abusing a tiny tot girl. How long has this been going on? While the owner
tells us she takes action the moment she hears about the child abuse, we uncover two more secret videos taken of the same woman allegedly abusing
more children!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was the first video released, then three more, one showing Armas Camacho (ph) shoving a baby rocker to the side.
Another appears to show her picking up a baby from a crib by her foot, and another showing her roughly taking another child from a crib.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Sarasota, 9-week-old infant baby boy, Chance (ph), goes missing, but both parents keep changing their story. As we go to air,
a stunning twist. A seven-foot alligator just sliced open in the search for the missing baby.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sarasota County deputies and Florida Wildlife Commission officers worked to capture a gator, a 7-foot-1-inch reptile, are
examining its contents.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please, if you know anything, anything that can help, please share it!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, a day at the beach turns nightmare. A dad of four takes his family to the beach and spots his 7-year-old little girl emerging
from a public port-a-potty with an unknown grown man with a knife who sex molests the little girl in the beachside portable bathroom. BOLO -- be on
the lookout. He is still at large.
Hello. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell right now. Live to Nevada, reality star, husband of Khloe Kardashian Lamar Odom at this hour fighting for his life. He`s found face
down, unconscious, mucus pouring out of his mouth and nose at the so-called Love Ranch, a Nevada brothel, prostitutes.
When Odom`s 6-foot, 10-inch frame does not fit in a chopper, he`s raced to a Vegas hospital. Reports the NBA star Kardashian husband on a
respirator in heart failure, liver and kidneys shutting down, his father insisting somebody drugged him.
More reports Odom goes, quote, "off the rails" over the reality hit "Keeping up With the Kardashians" and the way he is being portrayed.
I want to go straight out to Kyung Lah, CNN national correspondent, joining us. Thanks so much for being with us. What is the latest on Lamar
Odom?
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What we`ve heard is, regarding his condition from the Reverend Jesse Jackson, Nancy. Reverend Jesse Jackson
visited him in the hospital and he gave us this eyewitness report, that he isn`t able to breathe on his own, that he isn`t able to speak, that there
are tubes helping him to breathe, and that machine is really fundamental right now.
What we have heard, though, from Jesse Jackson is that there is slightly better news from his doctors. Yesterday, he was completely
unresponsive. Today, he is a bit more responsive. So that is some slightly better news, Nancy.
GRACE: Right.
[20:05:00]You`re seeing video from E`s "Keeping up With the Kardashians."
Joining me right now is our special guest, Dennis Hof, the owner of the so-called Love Ranch, Moonlight Bunny Ranch. It`s a house of
prostitution, that`s what it is.
Hof, thank you for being with us. You own the brothel where Odom is found unconscious. Long time no see. Hof, what happened? What do you
know?
DENNIS HOF, OWNER OF BROTHEL: Well, he called us on -- he called my manager on Saturday, wanted to come out and stay for four or five days,
wanted me to come down and visit with him. He was just there to have a good time...
GRACE: Hold on, Hof. Hold on. I didn`t know you had extended stay.
HOF: Yes. You can stay as long as you want, as long as you can afford to.
GRACE: OK, good to know.
HOF: And he can afford to. So he was just having a good time. He wanted to drink some cognac, just hang out with the girls. He was with a
couple girls, one named Ryder Cherry and the other named Monica Monroe. Everything was fine...
GRACE: Did you say Ryder Cherry? Is that what you said?
HOF: Ryder Cherry.
GRACE: OK.
HOF: And you can see their pictures on Loveranch.net. And he was just having a good time. He wanted to get away. He was doing some herbal
supplements, and -- but we don`t -- we didn`t see anything about...
GRACE: Hold on, hold on. Herbal supplement. What is that? Herbal supplement for what, an erection?
HOF: Exactly. There`s herbal supplements you buy at gas stations and convenience stores. We sell them at the ranch. And he was taking some of
those. We don`t think he was doing any drugs.
GRACE: OK, Hof -- again, everyone, with me, the owner of Love Ranch and the Moonlight Bunny Ranch, Dennis Hof.
Hof, let me understand what happened. So he`s partying with the girls, you said Ryder and Monica.
HOF: Correct.
GRACE: And then what happens?
HOF: Well, everything was fine until Tuesday morning. They last saw him at 6:00 o`clock in the morning when they went to do some things and he
was going to sleep, or been sleeping. And my staff took some food in to him about noon, which he was sleeping then. The girls came back at 3:15
and he was unconscious, foaming from the mouth.
GRACE: Foaming from the mouth. So they see him at 6:00 AM, he`s alive and well, probably asleep. They go from the room, two of them. Were
they together when they left, Hof?
HOF: Yes. They were together.
GRACE: OK. So he`s partying with two hookers. Is that what I`m hearing?
HOF: Yes.
GRACE: And he`s taking herbal supplements to maintain an erection, and he`s drinking cognac. all right. I`m just trying to get the picture
of what`s happening. 6:00 AM to 2:00 -- that gives me eight hours that he`s in the room. Those two go back to the room. Are they the ones that
discover him, Hof?
HOF: Absolutely. My staff member had gone there about midday, around noon, to take some food in case he was hungry, and he was sound asleep.
There was no problem then.
GRACE: OK. Everybody, you`re seeing E`s "Keeping up With the Kardashians."
So somebody checked on him at noon. I don`t know, was he asleep or was he already in a coma? I don`t know. But we do know, according to
Dennis Hof, the owner of the Love Ranch and Moonlight Ranch, he was foaming, according to Hof, at the mouth.
OK, then what happened, Dennis?
HOF: Well, they called 911. My management went in there. 911 said, Put him on his left side, which was a challenge because he`s a big guy.
And when they did that, he started throwing up.
The police and the ambulance came. They took him off in the ambulance, got him to the hospital and said, This isn`t looking good. We
want to care flight him to Las Vegas. But he wouldn`t fit in the helicopter, so they had to take an ambulance.
GRACE: Did he even have a -- everybody, you`re seeing E`s "Keeping up With the Kardashians." For those of you just joining us, Kardashian
husband Lamar Odom is right now fighting for his life. His organs are shutting down. This is after non-stop partying at the Love Ranch.
With me, the owner of the Love Ranch, Dennis Hof. He says everything was fine at 6:00 AM. The guy had been partying. Now, let`s see, you said
that was -- what day did -- what day did he -- he`s been there since Saturday, so he`s been partying for several days?
HOF: Correct. In fact, and speaking of the Kardashians, I got a call from their publicist today and saying, Are you going to do any media? And
I said, Yes, I`m going to go on the Nancy Grace show. And they said, Please don`t do that. We`d rather have Khloe say what needs to be said. I
told her to go to hell.
GRACE: OK. Good to know. Back to Lamar Odom. Let me ask you this, Hof.
For those of you just joining us -- we`re taking your calls, by the way. Liz, can you throw up the number?
Hof, you said somebody checked on him at 12:00 o`clock. He seemed to be sleeping. Then when all of this broke, they said, Put him on his left
side. Why did they want him on his left side? What does that do?
HOF: When we called 911, my staff told them he`s on his right side, and they said, Roll him to the left side. I don`t know what the reason
that was for, but when they did it, he started throwing up and foaming at the mouth. He also had a small amount of blood around his mouth and nose.
[20:10:13]GRACE: Hof, did he ever eat any of the food your staffer took to him?
HOF: Well, he`d been eating great. And you know, that`s -- that`s why I think he was being -- he was healthy. You know, he was sleeping
every night. He was eating all the food. This guy can eat. They were cooking meals for him all the time. He was just a guy wanting to get away
and have a good time at a brothel with some fun girls.
GRACE: OK, so then they try to airlift him. He`s too tall to fit into the chopper.
Oh, I remember that. That`s the "Unbreakable" commercial with Khloe and Lamar when they released their perfume together.
All right. Hof, so you check on him at lunch. He`s asleep, or so you think. Then the girls go back in there -- as you call them. They`re grown
women. They`re hookers. And that`s about -- did you say 2:00 PM?
HOF: It was 3:15.
GRACE: 3:15. Then he leaves. (sic) So question to you. Do you have hidden cameras in the rooms?
HOF: No.
GRACE: So is there anybody monitoring what`s going on?
HOF: No. We don`t keep cameras in the rooms. We have cameras in the hallways and the exterior for security purposes, but nothing in the rooms
at all.
GRACE: You`re seeing E`s "Keeping up With the Kardashians."
OK, tell me some more, if you don`t mind, Hof, about this herbal supplement you were talking about.
HOF: Well, there`s herbal supplements out there, and I tried one, sampled one about five years ago, and all it did is just -- it just made me
-- it was like I drank two or three energy drinks. And I hated the feeling, but there are guys that do these for energy, and they also do them
for ED purposes.
GRACE: Erectile dysfunction. So don`t they have ephedrine in them? They give you an upper? It`s like caffeine?
HOF: Well, they -- there`s instructions on how to take them. The girls told me that he had taken a lot of them over the last few days. I
don`t -- I don`t know -- the amount that I keep hearing is 8 to 10. I don`t know whether that was over the four days or whether that was all in
one day.
GRACE: How do you know he wasn`t doing drugs?
HOF: I don`t know, and we don`t have any way, except that I told my manager, I`m going to allow him to stay in my home that`s attached to the
brothel. You tell him no drugs. If there`s any sign of any drugs, he`s got to leave. We`re zero tolerance with drugs. And so we were taking him
at his word.
Is it possible? Absolutely. One of your favorites talked to me this morning and said, Dennis -- this is Heidi Fleiss. She says, You know drug
addicts can hide drugs. I can do it. So can Lamar. So we`re not 100 percent sure, but we`re hoping that he lived up to his word. But the fact
he was able to go to sleep every night is a good indication to me.
GRACE: Dr. Joye Carter, his organs are shutting down, according to reports. That`s not good. Can he be brought back? He`s on a respirator.
You`re seeing "Keeping up With the Kardashians" from E.
What about it, Dr. Carter?
DR. JOYE M. CARTER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Well, that doesn`t sound good (INAUDIBLE) he was found in pulmonary failure. That`s
the edema foam coming out of his mouth. Depending how long his brain was deprived of oxygen (INAUDIBLE) going to get over this or survive, but it
could be a matter of time.
GRACE: Right.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:17:57]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: NBA star turned reality star Lamar Odom is fighting for his life after being found unconscious at a Nevada
brothel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ambulance came, police came, took him to the hospital.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m really on high alert for Lamar because, I mean, anything, I think, will set him to spiral, and that`s kind of the
last thing I want for him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s from E`s "Keeping up With the Kardashians."
And joining me, Dennis Hof, the owner of the Love Ranch and the Moonlight Bunny Ranch.
For those just joining us, Kardashian husband Lamar Odom is right now fighting for his life. His organs are going into organ failure. He was
found face down at Dennis Hof`s Love Ranch with foam coming out of his mouth and nose. It ultimately was bloody. We don`t know exactly what
happened, but we do know he`s in the hospital right now, Hof insisting he knows nothing about any drug use.
Chris Spargo joining me, reporter, Dailymail.com. Chris, what else do we know?
CHRIS SPARGO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): So we know right now that he`s in a coma in a Vegas hospital. His heart is reportedly failing.
His lungs and his kidneys are beginning to shut down. We know that Khloe Kardashian is by his side, that Kim Kardashian and Kris Jenner are also
there. Other members of the Kardashian family are trying to get to the hospital. But other than that, we don`t know what`s in his system
completely, and there`s no definitive report about what happened.
GRACE: You`re seeing E`s "Keeping up With the Kardashians."
Question to you, Spargo, and don`t lie to me about this. Were they videoing? Were the Kardashians -- were there cameras rolling on them when
they got there?
SPARGO: There was no cameras. The show is actually on hiatus. Their finale just aired. There were some initial reports that there were cameras
following them in, but apparently, at Khloe`s insistence, there were no cameras filming this at this moment. We don`t know that for sure, but
that`s what they`re claiming.
GRACE: I`m glad to hear that, Chris Spargo with Dailymail.com, that they`re not using this as some reality show stunt. That`s good to know
because right now, her husband -- yes, they are still married. Khloe Kardashian`s husband is fighting for his life. His father is saying
somebody drugged him.
[20:20:10]You`re seeing E`s "Keeping up With the Kardashians."
To Dennis Hof, owner of the Love Ranch, where he was found in this condition. Dennis Hof, his father is insisting somebody drugged him. He
was at your place for several days. What`s your response to that?
HOF: Well, the father has no basis to say that, and there`s too many people there that were hanging out with him, having fun. The guy was
having a good time. If the father`s trying to use that weak excuse for him being at a brothel, it`s disgusting for him to even say that.
GRACE: Well, another thing. As I recall, Chris Spargo, he and his father had a little bit of a disagreement a while back over the father
giving statements, as I recall. Do you remember that?
SPARGO: Yes. The two have had an incredibly tumultuous relationship, which actually played out frequently when he was still on the Kardashian
show. His father is reportedly a former drug addict, and they had a lot of difficulty with him giving his father money, his father talking to the
press for money. They`ve had a very tempestuous relationship over the years.
GRACE: OK, I don`t know about anybody doing any drugs. So nobody`s reporting in on the NG show. Let me just put that out there.
That`s from E`s "Keeping up With the Kardashians."
Dennis Hof, back to you. Dennis, you see where this is going already, that people are insisting that he was on drugs...
HOF: Yes.
GRACE: ... but I don`t get it now -- you know, hold on, Hof, Dennis Hof with me. But now Brad Lamm, addiction specialist, started Breathe Life
Healing Centers and former addict.
BRAD LAMM, BREATHE LIFE HEALING CENTERS: You know, Nancy...
GRACE: And he`ll put that right out there.
You know, I don`t see how herbal supplements for, as Hof says -- what did he say, ED, erectile dysfunction, can`t get an erection? I don`t see
how that with a little cognac is going to throw you into something like an ischemic stroke.
LAMM: Well, it`s a super sad day, you know? And Nancy, if I ever end up in a brothel and the ambulance is called, I think no matter the excuses,
the most likely answer is the most obvious answer.
Look, if he was using these legal speedy-type drugs that decrease blood pressure and increase the ability to get an erection, ostensibly, who
knows if that might be part of the problem here. But I think the most obvious answer is probably more on the mark. I think it`s a sad thing.
Lamar Odom lost his son tragically in 2006. His infant son died. And he has had a well-documented rough patch.
GRACE: He`s had a really hard time, really hard time, Brad.
You`re seeing E`s "Keeping up With the Kardashians."
But Brad, you know, another thing is, if you`re taking anything -- and I`m not saying this is an ischemic stroke. I`m not saying that. But it
sounds like stroke-like conditions. But if you`re up all night partying and you`re taking even an herbal supplement, if it has anything in it to
jack you up, and you`re drinking and you`re staying up all night long partying, that looks to be a good time...
LAMM: Nancy, look, you know I have a good BS meter. And I love to trust folks, but I also do not trust the stories that come out soon after
people with well-documented addiction stories come out. I think it`s very unlikely that his food was spiked with something. I think the most obvious
answer, sadly, is the answer of what`s happened here.
And my thoughts and prayers are with the family, and hopefully, this will be a wake-up call for a lot of families to say, Hey, let`s get in
there and do something, let`s intervene, and whether somebody wants the help or not, bring the help to them.
GRACE: Well, again -- again, we don`t know this has to do with drugs.
You`re seeing video of Khloe Kardashian and Lamar Odom`s "Unbreakable" perfume commercial from his YouTube channel.
But Hof, I got to go back to you on this. You insist there were no drugs. There was the herbal supplement, and he was taking a lot of that,
but you can get that at the gas station, for Pete`s sake, at the checkout counter -- and cognac. That`s all you know about, correct?
HOF: Absolutely. The girls said there was no signs of that. And you`re right. Your last guest is right. These people will sell these
stories. You know, from our perspective, we don`t want anybody doing much of anything. We want them there to spend money with the girls and have a
good time, not passed out, drunk or high.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:28:26]GRACE: For those of you just joining us, reality TV star Lamar Odom, the husband of Khloe Kardashian and NBA superstar, right now
fighting for his life in a Vegas hospital.
I want to go back to Dennis Hof, the owner of the Love Ranch. It`s a brothel where Odom was partying at the time of this incident. For everyone
just joining us, Hof, if you don`t mind, could you start at the beginning and tell me what the two girls said, Ryder Cherry and Monica Monroe? What
did they say to you? I assumed they called you first thing.
HOF: Well, first thing -- yes, as soon as they saw him at 3:15 on Tuesday, after he`d been there since Saturday evening, there was a problem.
I got the first call after 911.
And my person, Richard, was in the room with them, with the girls. And 911 -- they told them, you know, he`s foaming at the mouth. He`s --
they put him on his left side. He started throwing up.
Terrible scene. The girls, of course, were traumatized. And got 911 there to get him in there and get him in the ambulance and rush him out of
the facility, hopefully, to save his life.
GRACE: You know, to Dr. Joye M. Carter, forensic pathologist, chief forensic pathologist -- you`re seeing E`s "Keeping up With the
Kardashians."
What does it sound like to you?
CARTER: It sounds like they have to rule out a drug overdose. Sounds like he`s had decreased oxygen to his brain. They wanted him rolled over
on his side to keep from getting any gastric material into his lungs, and you`re more prone to do that on the right side. And it sounds like the
foam come out of his mouth. His pulmonary edema from respiratory failure (INAUDIBLE) rule out drug overdose, and then try to support his organs.
[20:30:00]
GRACE: And Hof, I guess there`s no way you can actually ensure nobody comes in with drugs on them. I mean, but you would be so busted -- you`re
already running -- let me just put it out there -- a whorehouse. You`re running a brothel. So if you`re busted with illegal drugs there, you`re
out of business.
HOF: Well, we`re going to ask people to leave. We let people know right from the beginning, there is no tolerance for drugs in our place.
You can drink 24 hours a day, you can have some fun with the girls, but we don`t have any room for drugs in our world, whether it be an employee, a
working girl, or a customer. We just don`t want it at all. Just like a casino doesn`t, or a 7-Eleven or McDonald`s doesn`t want it.
GRACE: Everybody, rumors are rife right now that he is dying of a drug overdose. We do not know that. We don`t know what happened. But
right now, let`s just send out our prayers that Odom pulls through this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:36:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A horrifying attack.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I had black eyes, cuts all over my face.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Beaten and scalped by an ex-boyfriend and his pitbull.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My ear was not really attached to my face.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nancy sits down with the victim and she shares her story of violence Thursday on Nancy Grace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Live, Albuquerque, caught on video. A babysitter dangerously abusing a tiny tot girl, but how long has this been going on? The owner
tells us she takes action the moment she hears about the abuse. But we uncover two more secret videos taken of the same woman allegedly abusing
children.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A daycare worker caught on cell phone video violently shaking a baby. More equally disturbing cell phone videos.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of them was where she was picking up the baby kind of by the feet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Charged with child abuse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Picking up a baby by its foot? Liz, let me see this video in full, please, if you don`t mind? This woman -- how is it she was fired the
first time they heard about the abuse-- yes, she picked it up by the foot. Yes, picked up a baby by the foot. Watch this. Just throw that baby down!
Just throw it down! And then there is the rocking video. How is it, I ask, how is it that she was fired the first time it came to the administration`s
knowledge of the abuse, she was fired, then why are there two more videos that we have uncovered? To James Gimmel, news director, WJRW. James,
thank you for being with us. Tell me what happened.
JAMES GIMMEL, NEWS DIRECTOR, WJRW: Well, you can see in the video there, Nancy, what happened, this daycare worker who was dismissed
allegedly mishandled these tots, including rocking violently a seven-month or six-month-old girl, supposedly tossing the baby aside. Although that
one where she shoves the rocker a little bit, I don`t think that was too violent, but certainly the one you`ve shown repeatedly here of picking up
the baby off the floor or off the mat by the foot, a pretty violent situation.
GRACE: When you see her rocking the baby -- Liz, if you could show that one again, the way the baby`s foot is going violently back and forth,
that`s what`s happening to its neck as well. Also with me in addition to James Gimmel at WJRW, is Alyssa Bowen, a daycare worker, her son enrolled
at the daycare. Thank you for being with us.
ALYSSA BOWEN, DAYCARE WORKER: Thank you.
GRACE: What did you think when you first saw these videos, when you first heard about the alleged abuse at Eastern Child Development?
BOWEN: I was horrified. I couldn`t believe that, that someone could do that, and that it happened at our facility.
GRACE: You know, when you look at her shaking the baby back and forth, Dr. Carter, Joye Carter, chief forensic pathologist, author of "I
Speak for the Dead," explain why that is so damaging to a baby, what she`s doing to it, Dr. Carter.
CARTER: The infant`s brain is very soft, and to shake or rapidly move an infant in this manner can only lead to brain damage and/or death. A
child could develop all kinds of problems and nonetheless be bleeding on the brain, permanent brain damage or death.
GRACE: Permanent brain damage with shaking a child`s neck and heck that way. I spoke with the owner. Listen to what she says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve never had a complaint. I`ve never written her up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We immediately fired her when it was brought to our attention.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s done it to other children, too.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just really rough with the kids.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, like just upset because they wouldn`t sleep.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:40:00]
GRACE: I don`t understand, Alyssa Bowen, daycare worker, her son enrolled there. If there are all of these videos, three videos we managed
to dig up so far of her mistreating infants who can`t fight back, how long has it been going on?
BOWEN: I hadn`t heard about it until pretty much when the news came to the facility. That`s when I found out also.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, David Lee Windecher, defense attorney and author. Alex Sanchez joining me out of New York. Okay, Alex, what`s your
best defense?
SANCHEZ: I`ve looked at that video several times. It`s a little over the top in terms of the rocking, but I don`t know if it rises to the level
of criminality, where she could be held accountable in a criminal court of law. So you know, even if she did what she allegedly did, the question I
have is what`s the injuries? Has there been an independent examination to determine if these children were injured, because that would determine
whether or not she should be brought up on serious charges.
GRACE: Alex, have you ever defended a shaken baby syndrome case?
SANCHEZ: Yes, I have. And that does not -- as far as I`m concerned, that does not rise to the level of shaken baby syndrome. Let me tell you,
if you look at that video, the woman is not hitting the child, she`s not punching the child, she`s not swinging the child around. She`s a little
bit over the top, I admit, but does it rise to the level of criminal liability? I think it just is slightly below that line.
GRACE: Oh, my stars. When I even look at that video. Caryn Stark, can you help me, please? See, that`s the whole point of the shaken baby
syndrome prosecution. People don`t understand when you shake a baby like that, you do permanent damage in their brain. Their brain is hitting up
against the front and the back of their skull. I think, Caryn Stark, people are basically preordained, predisposed to think that women are not
going to hurt a baby.
STARK: I think that that`s really true, that they think women won`t hurt a baby, and they particularly feel like somebody who would volunteer
to be in a position like that would not want to. But you never know who gets attracted to those situations, Nancy, and this is a person who
obviously needs help. She has sadistic tendencies, and she needs to have this power over the children. That`s the only power she seems like she can
have. It`s very dangerous what she was doing. Clearly shaken baby syndrome.
GRACE: To David Lee Windecher, defense attorney and author, David. I mean, are you too still trying to argue that carrying a baby around by its
foot is not abusive? Would you like to be carried around by your foot?
WINDECHER: Nancy, it`s abuse, but this might be a civil commitment issue, I don`t think it`s a criminal issue --
GRACE: Civil commitment? Child abuse is civil, not criminal?
WINDECHER: Hear me out. The person who captured the video, she said herself she had to get the video because no one would believe her, because
Camacho had an impeccable record for seven years, no complaints. This is all of a sudden, this is her new behavior. She`s out on bond. The judge
should order a mental health evaluation to see if there is a psychological disorder. This is probably (inaudible) issue.
GRACE: Alyssa Bowen, the whole reason she wasn`t fired is because people thought she was a good employee. There is no history of her
whatsoever having any mental illness at all.
BOWEN: No.
GRACE: I think I`ve got Alyssa Bowen with me. Are you still there, Alyssa?
BOWEN: Yes. I`m here.
GRACE: What do you think? You knew her. What did you think of her?
BOWEN: I didn`t really know her too well, but she always seemed calm and she seemed like a good worker, but you never know. Maybe something has
changed in her. She snapped or something, who knows.
GRACE: If she snapped, Alyssa Bowmen, she snapped three times in a row that we know of. Matt Zarrell, here`s the thing. The reason nobody
has ever complained is because the victims can`t talk, Matt.
ZARRELL: Yes, in fact, the person who recorded this video recorded it because she thought nobody would believe her as well because the daycare
worker had no prior record before this. She had to have the video as evidence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She just kept saying it was a bad day. I told her that`s not a bad day. You could have killed her. She could have brain
damage for the rest of her life.
GRACE: Were you worried about possible brain damage on the child?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The actual video shows she has good control of the baby`s head. I wasn`t concerned about the baby having damage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:39:00]
GRACE: Live to Sarasota, a nine-week-old infant, baby boy Chance goes missing. Both parents keep changing their stories. As we go to air, a
stunning twist. A 7-foot alligator just sliced wide open in the search for the missing baby.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Standing next to a canal behind the missing boy`s home, Sarasota County deputies and Florida Wildlife Commission officers
work to capture a gator. They set a trap, hanging bait on a rope suspended by a pole. They bagged what they came for, a 7-foot 1-inch reptile. They
are examining its contents to rule out that possibility. The boy`s parents, Kristen Verrie (ph) and Joseph Walsh (ph) live steps away from the
canal, which runs behind their backyard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. Michelle Southern, assistant news director joining me from LRN. Michelle, how did they identify the alligator?
[20:50:00]
I mean, to me, you have got two parents, a mom and a dad changing their story about what happened to the baby. So how do they identify this
particular alligator as the one to get the death penalty?
SOUTHERN: Well, the alligator was found in the canal behind the couple`s apartment, and, you know, one of the strange things is that
cadaver dogs had detected blood and possible human remains inside the apartment. And what the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
wanted to do was euthanize this alligator, and search its stomach, to ensure or eliminate the possibility, rather, that the alligator had not
eaten the baby.
GRACE: Okay. Stacey Newman, was there any evidence that the baby had been near the water? And if so, what was a 9-week-old baby doing near the
water?
NEWMAN: Well, we know a 9-week-old wouldn`t just crawl out there while it was playing, so they`re connecting the possibility that maybe the
parents, who are suspects, gave the baby -- threw the baby in the canal, and this alligator ate the baby.
GRACE: Okay. Correction, Stacey, 9 weeks old, cannot crawl, just so you know. Keep that in mind. Dr. Gray Stafford, I need you. Gray
Stafford, director of Conservation and Wildlife World Zoo, author and animal trainer. His CV is too long to read. Gray, thank you for bringing
your friend. Okay, you keep him on that end of the camera. An alligator, eat a baby?
DR. GREY STAFFORD: Well, it certainly can. I`m not sure that they would be able to detect that several weeks, because I know the baby has
been missing for over a month now, so I`m not sure that forensic scientists could detect anything after this long time, but certainly an alligator can
consume a small child.
GRACE: But don`t you believe that the bones would still be in the animal`s stomach?
STAFFORD: I have to believe there might be some traces, but certainly in a seven-foot alligator, that`s a big animal. That`s probably about an
eight to ten-year-old animal at least, and certainly they might be able to consume a small child. And that`s tragic if that, indeed, was the case.
GRACE: Okay, now, Gray, I`ve only got my J.D. I know you`ve got your Ph.D. in animals and reptiles, but I would not have that thing that close
to my face if I were you, because that thing can snap around and bite you in a New York minute, okay? So, just --
STAFFORD: Well, you`re absolutely right, they are very fast. But this fellow here is worked with every day, so`s pretty safe compared to
most wild alligators.
GRACE: Okay. An alligator`s safe. Let me get back to the possibility that it would eat a baby. Explain.
STAFFORD: Well, alligators are going to take advantage of whatever prey`s available, and so if this child was harmed, if it was tossed in the
canal, then the alligator is going to see it as prey just like it would any other animal, like a duck, a turtle, et cetera.
GRACE: But Grey, would it eat a dead creature? Or does the alligator --
STAFFORD: It will.
GRACE: Oh. An alligator will eat a dead creature. Is that correct?
STAFFORD: It will. It is correct. Alligators can`t chew, Nancy, so if the prey is too big, they actually will tear it into small sections and
then store what`s left over in the water.
GRACE: Thanks, Grey. Let me just burn that bridge when I get there. Michelle Southern, LRN, assistant news director. The parents, I`m less
worried about the alligator they just sliced open, and I`m more worried about the parents changing their stories about the baby. What are their
stories, Michelle?
SOUTHERN: Well, one of the things that they have been saying, and, I mean, apparently they stayed at this Georgia motel at the end of September,
keep in mind the baby was last seen on September 9th. They keep telling family members after this car accident happened earlier in October that the
baby was with them, the baby was okay, then the father says that the baby died in the car accident. Then they say that they ended up giving the baby
away to a woman at that Georgia motel where they stayed. So, extremely inconsistent stories throughout this entire ordeal as this has been going
on and we`re searching for Chance.
GRACE: Another thing, Stacey, Stacey Newman, in addition to the stories Michelle Southern just recounted the parents have told, didn`t they
also say, haven`t we learned of another statement where the mom was trying to bum money off somebody and they didn`t have it because, well, I guess
I`ll just have to sell my baby. Who would say that? Who would even say that? Even jest? Jesting?
NEWMAN: There are also indicators she told other people she lives with she was angry with this baby, because we uncovered her previous child
died at just 2 weeks old from a mysterious kidney infection, and baby Chance, the baby who is now missing, was not like that baby. He was too
fussy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:59:00]
GRACE: We remember American hero, Tennessee police officer Terence Olridge, 31, killed en route to work wearing his uniform. Memphis police.
Leaves behind fiancee pregnant with their first child. Terence Olridge, American hero.
And tonight we remember Robert Leuci, passed away Monday. NYPD, known for going undercover in the `70s, exposing corruption by detectives. TV
writer, author, taught at University of Rhode Island. Children, our friends, Santina, and Anthony. Five grands.
Tonight, your prayers and thoughts for our dear friend Caryn Stark, breast cancer survivor, headed back for surgery. Caryn, stay strong.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night. 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
