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Nancy Grace
Clues in Leasing Agent`s Murder. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired November 02, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news now, live, upscale Orlando. We obtain just-released closed-circuit TV images of beautiful 27-year-old
Sasha Samsudean smiling, happy, after dinner with girlfriends. But just hours later, Sasha found murdered in her own apartment. We analyze the
clues left behind. Bombshell now. Is there a break in the case?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-seven-year-old Sasha Samsudean was found dead in her third-floor apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was a veteran. He was honorably discharged and he had no criminal history. So nobody could have seen this coming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, a mom allegedly throws her newborn baby girl out a seventh-story window alive. Neighbors find the newborn baby, umbilical
cord still attached, dead from blunt trauma from the fall. We now learn the 33-year-old woman, who once worked at the Department of Child
Protection, hides the last stages of her pregnancy from family and friends, including the baby`s father, insisting she had miscarried. Police say
immediately after she throws the baby to her death, Mommy gets right on her computer to look for a new job.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baby born and murdered within minutes or seconds.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s plenty of people out here that want kids. It could have been anywhere you could have brung them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no name. She didn`t live long enough to have one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Indianapolis. After police raid the mansion of former Subway sandwich superstar Jared, after Jared catapults the multi-
million-dollar sandwich giant to the stratosphere, police raid his mansion for child porn. But in the last hours, new secret recordings reportedly of
Subway`s Jared trying to set up child sex and asking his friends if he would let them video their children naked! Warning, the audio you`re about
to hear from CBS and Potesky (ph) Productions is disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jared Fogle, Subway pitchman, now child porn convict.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you let me see your kids naked?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Florida woman says she secretly recorded his every word, listened to him describing how he lured children in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, but I think that girl from the broken home could be a possibility, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, live, Orlando. We obtain just released closed- circuit TV images of beautiful 27-year-old Sasha Samsudean. She`s smiling happily after dinner with girlfriends, but just hours later, just after
this picture, Sasha found murdered in her own apartment.
We analyze the clues left behind. And in the last hours, is there a break in the case?
Let`s take it from the beginning. Ray Caputo, reporter, WDBO, joining us, along with Sergeant Dan Brady with the Orlando Police Department.
Ray, thank you for being with us. Let`s start at the beginning. The night that Sasha goes missing -- tell me what is observed. What am I
seeing on this closed-circuit TV? What clue is it giving me?
RAY CAPUTO, WDBO (via telephone): Well, that`s the thing, Nancy. There isn`t a lot of clues, other than Sasha was drunk. Now, let me give a
back story. We know that she was hanging out at a bar called the Attic (ph) bar, watching a soccer game with friends. And the bar`s not very far
from a house (ph) I`m looking at a map for right here, a popular tourist area.
The surveillance video shows her making it home safely to her apartment. She appears to be drunk a little, a little tipsy. But that`s
where it ends. There isn`t much more to that.
GRACE: You know what, Ray? I`m going to just have to stop you right there, Ray Caputo, because we don`t have any evidence of what you`re
saying. And I really do not like when a murder victim is dragged through the mud because this young lady -- Liz, please pull me up the video of her
as a leasing agent -- had a very, very responsible job. She had completed school with excellent grades. She was paying her own way in this posh
high-rise, showing up to work every day.
And she has been brutally murdered. Not only that, we found out her body was desecrated. So the fact that she may have had a glass of wine
when she was with her girlfriends I hardly think is the point of trying to determine who killed her.
[20:05:02]Let`s hear her voice. This is video of Sasha from ILS (ph) network, posted to YouTube.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SASHA SAMSUDEAN, VICTIM: Let`s go check it out! What are the top three amenities that your residents love?
I`ve attended the past two years (INAUDIBLE) and let me tell you, it`s a great, great event. As a supplier even on this side of the industry, I
get to spend an entire day with my clients...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There you are seeing Sasha Samsudean, just 27 years old. Her body was found wrapped in a comforter on her own bed, to suggest that she
was just lying there asleep.
Now, I want to go back to this closed-circuit TV that captures her. This is just about an hour before she is murdered. Now, remember, when the
police go in, they won`t say what had happened to her because it looks as if she`s just sleeping, wrapped up in the blanket.
This is the last image of her as she is coming back from dinner and watching that sports game. To Sergeant Dan Brady, joining me from the
Orlando Police Department. I kept wondering how somebody could get past this closed-circuit TV, Sergeant.
I want to talk about right now, what we find in her apartment. You know, I mentioned, Sergeant Brady, she was rolled up in a comforter. Well,
it`s not exactly rolled up like you`re lying there with a comforter over you. She was rolled up like a burrito. She was rolled over and over in
the comforter. That`s not normal, Sergeant.
SGT. DAN BRADY, ORLANDO POLICE DEPARTMENT (via telephone): That`s right, Nancy. She was wrapped up, just basically thrown away like it was
not a human being, covered up in just an awful situation.
GRACE: You know what, Sergeant Dan Brady? The fact that this is such an upscale apartment -- we`ve gone so far as to describe it as posh -- and
she`s a leasing agent, of course, so she finds out about these nice places to live. She`s living there.
And I couldn`t figure out how somebody could get into her apartment. Police told me that there was no sign of the apartment being ransacked, no
obvious theft. As a matter of fact, Sergeant Brady, isn`t that true that her iPad and her jewelry were right beside her bed, still sitting there?
BRADY: That`s right, Nancy. Nothing was disturbed in her room, other than her bed.
GRACE: You know what`s odd, Sergeant Brady, and disturbing? For those of you listening, this is going to be a little disturbing. All of
her genitals, all of her private parts, were covered in bleach? Someone had poured bleach on her body?
BRADY: Yes, that`s -- unfortunately, that is true. There was some type of a bleaching chemical that was poured around her genital area that
bleached out the blanket. And obvious (INAUDIBLE) looked like they, you know, were trying to cover up any evidence.
GRACE: Now, I also understand there was a condom wrapper and a partial shoe print. I want to talk to you, Sergeant Brady, about this shoe
print because that brings back memories of the O.J. Simpson trial, when the state prosecutors couldn`t come up with a shoe that matched a bloody
footprint at the scene. But then lo and behold, "The National Enquirer" gets a shot of O.J. Simpson wearing a Bruno Magli, which watches up
identically after the not guilty verdict.
So where was this partial footprint? How do you get a partial footprint in somebody`s apartment?
BRADY: Well, once we discovered that she had been murdered, we basically fingerprinted the entire floor. It was kind of a hardwood floor
in there, and they were able to identify any of the shoeprints that had been inside the apartment. And anybody who was inside that apartment, we
printed them and took imprints of everybody`s shoes to try to see if we couldn`t find any unidentified shoeprints.
GRACE: So no matter how fancy your apartment building is -- take a look at this place. This young girl was murdered there.
What I`m asking you, Sergeant Dan Brady, Orlando PD, was where was the shoeprint? Was it in the carpet? Was it in the kitchen? Was it in the
bathroom? How could you pick up a shoeprint inside?
BRADY: Well, her entire living room and bedroom had hardwood floors, so anywhere you step with your shoe, it`s going to leave an impression of
the bottom of your shoe. And that`s what we were able to find in several places in her apartment.
GRACE: So you (INAUDIBLE) And was it dirt? Did you see it with the naked eye?
BRADY: No, just the oily residue that`s on the bottom of your shoe, where you walk around on the hardwood floor. It will leave an impression
if you use fingerprint dust. And our crime scene investigators are amazing that they were able to find this.
GRACE: OK, brilliant. Brilliant, Sergeant Dan Brady. Absolutely brilliant. So what I`m hearing from you is, you don`t go in and see a
muddy footprint. You actually...
BRADY: No, you would not see it with the naked eye.
GRACE: ... the floor...
BRADY: You would actually have to put the dust (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: ... with fingerprints...
(CROSSTALK)
BRADY: ... car that was broken into. But our crime scene investigators processed the entire floor of her whole apartment.
[20:10:01]GRACE: Wow. OK. I was wondering how you got that footprint. Back to Ray Caputo with WDBO. I guess this will teach you to
let the seat down on the commode, Ray Caputo. Tell me about the latent thumbprint on the commode seat. It was still up, right, and cops walk in
and go, Whoa, whoa. She lives alone. Why is the toilet seat up? What can you tell me, Ray?
CAPUTO: Exactly. When police entered the apartment, they didn`t see a lot of things out of the ordinary, but there were a few. One of those
was that seat up, and Sasha was a female living alone. And what they did was they dusted for fingerprints and found a latent finger -- a thumbprint,
actually, on the top of that toilet.
GRACE: Stacey Newman, also with us on the story (INAUDIBLE) Sergeant Dan Brady and Ray Caputo, WDBO. Guys, we think we`ve got a break in this
case because now, Stacey, isn`t it true police are taking a very hard look -- and you and I called it, Stace. We reported on this before. We
couldn`t figure out how somebody could come from the outside and get in undetected with all that surveillance. This is why. Explain. Tell me
about the security guard.
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, what we thought with this case is this had to have been an inside job because of that key padlock
that`s -- you need to know to get into the building, and also into her apartment.
What we discovered is a security guard who was on duty that night -- his name is 33-year-old Stephen I believe it`s Duxbury -- he was the only
officer at the complex on duty that night, and witnesses saw him with Sasha. Not only that, he was caught multiple times with her on
surveillance video all over the building, on different floors, in the parking garage. So police honed in on this man and have questioned him.
GRACE: You know, another interesting thing -- to Sergeant Dan Brady. Isn`t that true that this security guard was caught carrying out some trash
for somebody that lived in that building, and that`s not their duty? How do you get a security guard to carry out your trash? Is he caught on video
carrying out trash?
BRADY: Yes, Nancy, he actually was. It wasn`t noted in his report, and we actually found him carrying out two bags of trash, which is highly
unusual. That`s not their job.
GRACE: Sergeant Brady, Ray Caputo, Stacey Newman, don`t go anywhere. I want the viewers to take a look at the victim in this case, Sasha
Samsudean. We are unraveling a very complex murder, this 27-year-old girl found dead in her apartment. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMSUDEAN: Hey, guys. I`m Sasha from 407Apartments.com, and I`m this year`s AAGO (ph) education chair. I`d like to invite all you guys out to
Lisapaloosa (ph), an event that`s being held on September 27th at the (INAUDIBLE) on Bundy Avenue in downtown Orlando.
-- when the parents aren`t able to see what the community has to offer, and then the parents are asking, Well, what am I paying for?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:17:01]GRACE: Tonight, we have obtained closed-circuit TV footage, the last photo of this young girl, just 27 years old, in life. She`s found
dead in her apartment. She`s killed just after this photo taken.
I want to go straight back to Sergeant Dan Brady joining us, the Orlando PD. She was found dead in an upscale apartment building there in
downtown Orlando. Let`s see a shot of that, and the inside, as well, because this place is crawling with closed-circuit TV videos. Nothing
showed anybody breaking into her apartment.
Now, what I want to talk about right now -- to Dr. Tim Gallagher and Sergeant Dan Brady. Sergeant, you`re stating that bleach had been poured
on her genitals. Anywhere else on her body was there bleach?
BRADY: Well, it was hard to tell, Nancy, because she`d been rolled up in the blanket. She`d been poured on before she was rolled up, so you
know, it had been mixed into the blanket and all over her body.
GRACE: You know, Dr. Tim Gallagher, forensic pathologist out of Daytona Beach -- obviously, this is a ploy in trying to get rid of DNA, all
right, to get rid of saliva, sperm, you name it. Now, we know there was a condom there. Was it used? Don`t know. But we know that bleach was
poured over her genitals.
Dr. Gallagher, many people believe that everyday bleach can get rid of DNA. That is not necessarily true. Very often, muriatic acid is actually
required to break down DNA. What can you tell me, Dr. Gallagher.
DR. TIM GALLAGHER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Well, that`s absolutely correct, Nancy. Bleach can break down some types of DNA, but it
won`t break down all of the DNA. So muriatic acid is actually a better agent to destroy the proteins that make up the DNA.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Out of Maryland, Robin Ficker, veteran defense attorney. Out of Miami, Andell Brown, trial lawyer. All right,
Ficker, let`s go to you first. Now, this security guard, this 33-year-old Stephen Michael Duxbury -- now, he was asked to hand over the shoes that
he`s wearing the night Sasha is murdered because you heard the sergeant. This was brilliant police work, what they did. They dusted her -- all of
her hardwood floors. They couldn`t see anything. But by dusting the floors, they found footprints.
So what does Duxbury bring? The wrong shoes, Ficker. He did not bring the shoes he wore to work. He did not bring the correct shoes. Why
did he do that, Robin Ficker? Why did he bring the wrong shoes? It`s O.J. all over again.
ROBIN FICKER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, he has an absolute right not to incriminate himself. We all know that. He obviously passed a security
test to get this job...
GRACE: That`s not right. That`s not the law, Ficker. The law is you don`t have to testify against yourself. But when you are ordered by
subpoena or search warrant to produce something, such as a handwriting sample, a blood sample, a fingerprint, a hair sample, you are required
under the law to produce those items, and that extends to shoes. He does not have a right not to produce an item within his possession. Ficker?
Can you hear me?
[20:20:21]FICKER: How did they know what shoes he was wearing that night? They have no idea.
GRACE: Because it`s all on video! The guy`s working. He`s on video. OK, you know what? Here`s another one. I`m going to throw this one to
you, Andell Brown. While Ficker tries to percolate and come up with some crazy defense -- I know he`s going to do it. You can`t tell he`s going to
do it, but right now, look at Ficker. He`s coming up with a story. He`s coming up with it right now.
I`ll throw this to you, Andell Brown. He said he had never been in that apartment. But he had been in the apartment. Why would he lie about
it? If he had been about there for an innocent reason, what`s wrong with that? He works in the building.
ANDELL BROWN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, we also have to take into account the possibility that this is a 33-year-old married man who does not
want it to be known that he`s been inside the apartment of a single woman and there may have been some type of sexual encounter between the two. We
don`t know that.
GRACE: Involving bleach on her genitals, that kind of sex encounter?
BROWN: (INAUDIBLE) why he wouldn`t want to say he`d been in the apartment.
GRACE: Andell, a sex encounter involving bleach on her genitals? Is that the type of sex encounter you`re talking about?
BROWN: Well, obviously, that`s not what I`m talking about, Nancy. But what we know at this point in time is the facts that have revealed that
he may have been in that apartment. What happened to precipitate that, we don`t know. We don`t know whether he`d been in there before. We don`t
know how many times he`d been in there.
GRACE: That`s true.
BROWN: And we don`t know the nature of their relationship. Without knowing that...
GRACE: You know what, Andell? You`re right about that.
BROWN: You`re putting the cart before the horse.
GRACE: Both you and Ficker have a good point. He could have been in the apartment for innocent reasons.
But here`s my concern. Sergeant Dan Brady, first of all, when you look at a latent fingerprint -- and we know that there was a print on the
underside of the toilet seat. Somebody lifted it up. It was a thumbprint. To you, Sergeant, can you determine whether a thumbprint is a man or a
woman`s thumbprint?
BRADY: Absolutely. We were able to identify it, as a matter of fact, as belonging to Stephen Duxbury.
GRACE: So are you telling me, sergeant Dan Brady, that the thumbprint on her commode, on the toilet seat, lifting it up, was the security guard,
Duxbury`s?
BRADY: Yes, it was.
GRACE: All right. I want you to look at the video of this girl. Do you have information?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMSUDEAN: Hi, I`m Sasha with 407Apartments TV. We`re here at the Village at (INAUDIBLE) Let`s go check it out.
What are the top three amenities that your residents love?
I`ve attended the past two years (INAUDIBLE) and let me tell you, it`s a great, great event. As a supplier even on this side of the industry, I
get to spend an entire day with my clients, learning about their side of the business. What can be better than that?
For more information and to register, visit AAGO.org. I hope to see you (INAUDIBLE) So what we are able to do for Seana and (INAUDIBLE) was
customize each individual section of (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video of Sasha from ILS Network, posted to YouTube.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:27:28]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-seven-year-old Sasha Samsudean was found dead in her third-floor apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... was a veteran. He was honorably discharged and he had no criminal history. So nobody could have seen this coming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And there is more. Isn`t it true, Stacey Newman, that he was observed, the security guard for this building, talking to Sasha when she
got in?
NEWMAN: Yes, that`s right. He was observed talking to her and seen on surveillance talking to her. And Nancy, remember, he was found with
abrasions on his arms. One of them looked like bite marks. And they found marks on Sasha`s neck.
GRACE: You know, what`s interesting is that all this, Robin Ficker and Andell Brown, could have been explained by him if it were innocent. He
said that the marks on his arms were from a skin problem. If he could have corroborated that or shown that, no big deal. And being a security guard,
I could see a reason that he may have gone in or out of that apartment, even while she wasn`t there.
But lying about it -- lying about it, Robin Ficker, I think is the most damning thing.
FICKER: So he says something that`s untrue, and you`re making the jump to believe that he`s committed a murder. That`s a stretch, Nancy
Grace...
GRACE: Well, yes, I am.
FICKER: ... one that any jury is not going to take.
GRACE: I am making that jump. You`re seeing video of Sasha from ILS Network posted to YouTube.
You know what, Sergeant Brady? Let`s talk about the polygraph. Sergeant Brady, what type of questions did you ask the security guard?
BRADY: Well, our polygraph examiner asked a lot of questions. The first set of questions were, basically, just basic questions about the
crime that only the killer would know.
GRACE: Such as? I understand, Sergeant Brady, you started off with questions like, Do you know if she was shot by a .20-caliber? Do you know
if she was stabbed? Do you know if she was shot with a .48? Do you know if she was strangled?
And out of all the questions that you asked, that he was asked, he fumbled on one, When he was asked about her being strangled, Sergeant
Brady.
BRADY: That`s right. That`s -- the only question he had a reaction to. And up until that point, we had kept the investigation very, very
quiet. We had not released that to anybody. Even people within the police department didn`t know exactly how she passed away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:34:00]
GRACE: Live, Indianapolis. After police raid the mansion of former Subway sandwich superstar pitchman, Jared -- Jared catapults the
multimillion dollar giant to the stratosphere -- police raid the mansion for child porn. But in the last hours, new secret recordings reportedly of
Subway`s Jared trying to set up child sex, and asking friends if they would let him video their children naked. Warning, the audio you are about to
hear from CBS (inaudible) productions is disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the first time, sharing sick fantasies with a Florida woman he trusted.
JARED FOGLE: We`re going to have so much fun, baby, we`re going to have so many -- you have no idea.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She told Dr. Phil she worked with the FBI, recording Fogle`s twisted desires for five years.
FOGLE: The girl was starting to -- [ bleep ]. You know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, when I think about this, he was observed for years and years. I`m talking about Subway`s pitchman, Jared Fogle. And during
the years that he was being tape-recorded and observed, how many children may have been molested? I want you to take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FOGLE: Will you let me see your kids naked?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uh, yes.
FOGLE: Yes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uh-huh.
FOGLE: That would be okay?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure.
FOGLE: How old are your kids again?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 10 and 11.
FOGLE: Yes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uh-huh.
FOGLE: A boy and a girl?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
FOGLE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yep.
FOGLE: I would love to see them naked. We`re going to have so much fun, baby. We`re going to have so many -- you have no idea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The audio you are hearing from CBS and Poteski (ph) productions is extremely disturbing. You know, until you actually hear
these tapes yourself, it`s hard to believe that Subway`s Jared would do this! But hearing these tapes, I hope the judge is listening. I hope the
judge in charge of sentencing is listening. Alan Duke, editor in chief, Leadstories.com, in a nutshell, who is taping Jared? Because somebody is
saying, sure, you can see my children naked. Over my dead cold body!
ALAN DUKE, LEADSTORIES.COM: This is a woman who in Florida had a radio talk show. She met him when he was on the show in 2006. And he said
such disturbing things to her then, she decided to check into him. And she befriended him and pretended like she was interested. She says she taped
him over five years and got these chilling phone recordings by making him think that she liked that kind of thing, and was going to help her -- or
help him. So that`s who she is.
GRACE: You`re seeing Jared in one of his many, many Subway sandwich commercials. This is off Youtube of Jared`s working with Subway. Take a
listen to the chilling videotapes and audiotapes we have just obtained.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FOGLE: You know, we started talking and whatever, and sharing stories. And then, you know, we got a little closer, a little closer and a
little closer. And before you know it, you know, it`s -- you know, it just starts to happen.
A girl from a broken home could be a possibility, you know?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uh-huh.
FOGLE: I definitely think that. And, um -- yes, and show some affection.
Yeah, especially the middle school, I love the middle schools, you know, the girl that is starting to get [ bleep ] you know. And you know
how much I love huge [ bleep ]. I would love to try to do that at some point.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
FOGLE: That would be so amazing. I would love to put the video camera in there, you know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uh-huh.
FOGLE: At the very least. And watch them strip down. Who is going to give you the glance, you know what I mean?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uh-huh.
FOGLE: I think it`s going to be try to set it up the best we can, and trying to get them as sexed up as we can, and then just sort of take it
from there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation, help me out here. He`s only looking at 12 years behind bars?
KLAAS: Nancy, the good news, if there is such a thing as good news, is there is going to be some compensation for ten of his victims. The bad
news is that regardless of how long this guy spends in prison, he is going to get out of prison and he`s still going to be a pedophile, and he`s still
going to groom children to have sex with him. And obviously, from reading the things that he has said in some of these interviews, he`s an expert at
grooming children in a variety of ways. He`s very, very comfortable with his perversions. He endorses them. He thinks other people should endorse
them. He`s an incredibly dangerous individual. And in my book, he should never get out of prison.
GRACE: Well, one thing I don`t understand is, he was charged, I believe, with sex with minors. But those charges have fallen away, and now
he`s only looking at charges of distributing child porn and traveling to a place to have sex with minors. The most serious charges seem to have been
dropped against Subway`s Jared. Of course, he`s been fired from that. Listen to this. Very, very disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FOGLE: Would you watch me [ bleep ] a young girl too?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
FOGLE: Do you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do.
FOGLE: What will you do?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hmmm. Whatever you tell me.
FOGLE: What would you like to do?
[20:40:00]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like you to tell me what to do.
FOGLE: Would you [ bleep ] a young boy?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, whatever it is you tell me. I want --
FOGLE: Will you [ bleep ] for me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does that turn you on?
FOGLE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell me.
FOGLE: It would turn me on so much.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would do anything for you.
FOGLE: I want Cass to be involved with this too, baby.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She will. She definitely will.
FOGLE: So much. I would fly all three of us clear across the world if we need to.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Really? Like where?
FOGLE: To Thailand or wherever we want to go.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes? Where would we -- would we have to go away somewhere?
FOGLE: Well, we could. It would just make things a lot easier if we`re going to try to get some young kids with us, it would be a lot
easier, probably.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah, I mean, okay. I`ll do whatever you ask me to. I told you that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I`m having a hard time taking it in. I used to have this problem at trial, looking at a guy, who seems so normal, and then faced
with the evidence. What you`re hearing is from CBS and Poteski productions, extremely disturbing. To Dr. Ramani Durvasula, how can a jury
or a judge look at Subway for instance in those commercials we`re running? That`s how we all know Jared from Subway. How can we look at that and then
reconcile that with what we`re hearing him say on tape?
DURVASULA: I mean, Nancy, forgive me for being cynical, but this guy`s only claim to fame is that he ate sandwiches and lost weight. It`s
not somebody that was ever doing anything that important or interesting. That`s it. So I actually think --
GRACE: I don`t even think that`s the issue. I don`t think that`s the issue. Because people feel that they know Jared of Subway. They kind of
grew up with him. They saw him go through his 300-pound weight struggle. We`re rooting for him. He kind of was everyman. And another issue I have
about trial, Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert, is how do you get these audio recordings in? How were they made?
I think I`ve got Ben Levitan with me. Ben, are you there?
LEVITAN: Yes, I am, Nancy. These recordings, it depends what state you are in. Some states are what they call one-party consent, Nancy. Only
one party to the recording has to be aware that it`s being recorded. Some parties are two-party consent. In those states, every party on the
recording must be notified. If we`re in a one-party consent state, as far as I can tell, they`re admissible.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:47:30]
GRACE: A mom allegedly throws her newborn baby girl out a seventh story window alive. Neighbors find the newborn baby with umbilical cord
still attached, dead, from blunt trauma from the fall. We now learn the 33-year-old woman who once worked at the Department of Child Protection hid
her pregnancy from family and friends, including the baby`s father, insisting to everyone she had miscarried. Well, police say immediately
after she throws the baby to her death, mommy goes straight over to the computer, logs on, to look for a new job.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A horrifying crime that left neighbors struggling to summon the words.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, you didn`t have to drop them out the window. That`s killing. A sin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The victim has been identified as newborn infant female.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Chris Spargo, reporter, dailymail.com. Chris, I am so distraught about this. Now, I know what the argument is going to be. That
the mom was suffering postpartum depression. That she was emotional. She did not have a mental issue that we know of. As a matter of fact, she
actually held down a job at the Department of Children Services for child protection, Chris Spargo. And we also have the issue, Chris, that she had
intentionally deceived her family and friends and the baby`s father into believing she had either miscarried or had an abortion. Tell me what we
know about the scene where this happened, Chris.
CHRIS SPARGO, DAILYMAIL.COM: So, yes. So Jennifer Berry was at her boyfriend`s house, and according to the police report, she started to get
cramps and decided to draw a bath. She sat in the bath, felt a lot of pressure, and gave birth to this baby girl. She then allegedly held the
baby for a few minutes, then threw it out the seventh floor window, allegedly, at which point she then cleaned up the entire bathroom, put on a
sanitary pad, went back out to the computer and started looking for a job as if nothing happened.
GRACE: So Bill Levitan, telecommunications expert out of Raleigh. Are we going to be able to look and figure out forensically exactly what
time she logs back on to the computer after throwing the baby to its death?
LEVITAN: Absolutely, Nancy. You know that everything you do on a computer is time-stamped, everything. Every web site you go to, is time
stamped. It`s going to be very clear. Obviously they`ve taken her computer, but without even forensic, they`ll be able to determine what time
she logged on to that computer, Nancy.
[20:50:00]
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, is it true she used to work for Child Protective Services?
ZARRELL: Yes, she did work for Child Protective Services from July 2007 until January 2008, and she did work with families, but this agency
says under close supervision. And Nancy, I should also note, there is another part of this story here. This woman had a two and a half week old
who died in 2008. Now, that death was ruled natural causes, but the prosecutors in that case are now reviewing it again, to see if anything was
missed.
GRACE: Please, we are issuing a public plea to prosecutors to reopen the death of that tiny baby. You know, Marc Klaas, I saw it with my own
eyes. I saw how crimes on children, especially babies, always got pled down to involuntary manslaughter. It`s almost as if people think because
the baby never had a personality, it didn`t have a name, it didn`t have a job, it wasn`t in school, as if it didn`t even live. And these cases are
pled out to straight probation every day. It`s wrong, Marc.
KLAAS: You know, it was a baby. It was her daughter. She knew that this baby was coming to full term. She chose to deceive everyone. She
murdered her daughter. She could have given her up for adoption. She could have taken advantage of New York`s safe haven law. But instead, she
chose to murder her child. She laid in wait to commit this crime from the moment she knew she was pregnant until this child was born.
GRACE: You know, Dr. Tim Gallagher, forensic pathologist, she`s going to argue I`m sure at trial that the baby was stillborn, dead at birth. But
is there a way to show that the baby had been breathing air?
GALLAGHER: Yes. That is correct, Nancy. When the baby is within the mother, it lives in a fluid environment. There`s no air there. But after
the baby is born, it takes its first breath of air, and its lungs fill up with that air. And we can look at that lung under the microscope to
determine if air is in the lung and the baby was in fact alive when it was born.
GRACE: So we`re going to know that by the time this all comes to trial. Robin Ficker, defense attorney, Maryland. Andell Brown, defense
attorney, Miami. Robin Ficker, here is the coup de gras, here is the icing on the cake, albeit sour, that she gives birth in the bathtub or the
shower. As Chris Spargo from Dailymail is telling us. She wrenches the umbilical cord with her own bare hands, goes to the window, drops the baby.
She cleans herself up, puts on a sanitary napkin, and sits down at the computer, and goes to work. How are you going to look a jury in the eye
with a straight face and explain that? Ficker.
FICKER: She said the baby was gray. We need an expert witness to look over the autopsy results. It`s a matter of seconds here. When did
that baby die? Very likely before it was thrown over the balcony.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:58:00]
GRACE: This baby died, a little baby girl, in perfect health, according to prosecutors, died from blunt trauma from a fall out of a
seventh-floor window. Reportedly, thrown out the window by her own mother. I was talking to Robin Ficker and Andell Brown. Best defense?
BROWN: Best defense is the fact that this woman is not operating like a normal person would, using logic. She is suffering from a psychological
defect that causes her to have an alternate view of reality. She is not doing what you or I would do in this situation.
GRACE: You could say that about any killer, Andell Brown.
BROWN: Look at her actions.
GRACE: I am.
BROWN: Look at her history.
GRACE: It`s murder. And there`s a chance she murdered the other baby too.
BROWN: Well, we don`t know that. That was already investigated, and we found that was natural causes.
GRACE: No, no, no. That`s going to be reopened. Matt, isn`t that first baby going to be reopened?
ZARRELL: They are reviewing it, yes.
GRACE: Everybody, American hero. Army Chief Warrant Officer Three Rex Chris Kenyon, 34, El Segundo, California. Bronze Star, Purple Heart,
loved flying helicopters. Parents Rex and Beverly, brother Robert, widow June Young (ph), daughter Heather. Rex Chris Kenyon, American hero.
Tonight, mercy care to help the homeless. Annual coat drive. Goal, 1,200 gifts of warmth. Gloves, socks, scarves, drop off spots go to
mercycare.org.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off. See you tomorrow night at 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until
then, good night, friend.
END
