Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Texas Judge Gunned Down in Driveway/Mom Shoots Back at Home Invaders. Aired 8-8:30p ET
Aired November 09, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news now, live to upscale Austin, where the shooting of a beloved female judge, a loving wife, a mother stuns the
community. Was it revenge, or was it to get the judge thrown off a certain case? Every year, this judge hears 1,000 new felony cases. Bombshell now.
The shooter is on the run.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A manhunt under way in Austin, Texas, for the person who shot a judge in her driveway.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge Julie Kocurek was shot during this incident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police and investigators seem to believe that she was ambushed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Live, East Charleston suburbs, a 21-year-old mom at home feeding her young son when home invaders burst through her front door.
Rushing her baby to safety in his crib, the mom, a combat medic with the National Guard, grabs her husband`s gun and fires back. But to no avail.
The home invaders get away. And at this hour, 21-year-old mom Semantha hangs onto life, critically wounded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Semantha Bunce was feeding her baby when she heard knocking, and then the front doorbell ring.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then the intruders came in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two suspects with a gun. They had no way of knowing that she had a military background. And when those suspects fired,
she fired back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, outrage when a McDonald`s worker caught on video taunting a hungry homeless man with food. And then when the starving man
approaches for the burger, the McDonald`s worker cruelly throws a cold drink in his face before bursting out in laughter. FYI, that`s an assault!
So tonight, McDonald`s, what are you going to do about it?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A McDonald`s worker was caught on camera teasing an apparent homeless man with food.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come here. You want (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then throwing a cup of cold water at the man as he tried to retrieve the sandwich.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, caught on camera, the very last moments of a luxury cruise line passenger on an all-inclusive trip through the Caribbean
falling to his death off the side of the Royal Oasis luxury cruiser, the cruise line insisting it was suicide. And if so, they escape liability.
But did the cruise ship over-serve him to total intoxication before his fall?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is 35-year-old Bernardo Albez (ph). Cell phone video captures him clinging to the side of a cruise ship moments
before falling to his death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What really happened was not a suicide. Bernardo did not jump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Upscale Austin, where the shooting of a beloved female judge, a loving wife and mother, stuns the community. Was it
revenge, or to get the judge off a certain case? Every year, this judge hears 1,000 brand-new felony cases. And right now, the shooter is on the
run.
Straight out to reporter with "The Austin American-Statesman" Tony Plohetski joining us. Tony, what can you tell us about how the judge was
gunned down?
TONY PLOHETSKI, "AUSTIN AMERICAN-STATESMAN" (via telephone): Nancy, she had been at a high school football game Friday night with members of
her family. She was on her way home to this upscale Austin neighborhood. It is on the west side of town, homes of $1 million to $2 million.
She was pulling into her driveway. And her driveway has a gate. And as she was planning to go into that driveway, there was an obstruction. It
has been described by sources to me as possibly a trash can or a bag of garbage that did not allow the car to actually go through the gate.
It was at that time, the driver of her car stopped the car to move whatever was blocking their path, and it was at that time that the judge
was shot as she was seated in the passenger seat of her car.
GRACE: Awful. Awful. Absolutely terrible!
For those of you just joining us, a lady judge in upscale Austin, Texas, has been gunned down. She was taking her children -- she`s got two,
she`s got twins, a boy and a girl. There was a football game they went to that night. She was coming home from that football game.
And as Tony Plohetski has told us, there is a gate, but if you look at that gate, it is side by side with the home. It does not protect the home
from people on the street getting up toward the home.
[20:05:00]Now, Tony Plohetski from "The Austin American-Statesman" is telling us that there was a trash bag or there was a dumpster placed in
front of the gate when they got home that night from the ball game around 10:00 o`clock. She`s with her family, pulling back in.
OK, Tony, let`s talk about what we know. If it was this cart, this trash cart that you push on wheels, there`s got to be -- got to be
fingerprints. That`s what they had to use. If it was a plastic bag, that`s a perfect receptacle for fingerprints.
What do we know about processing of the scene? And are there any surveillance cameras, Tony Plohetski?
PLOHETSKI: Well, Nancy, in terms of the processing of the scene, police were out here overnight Friday, into Saturday, of course, collecting
every shred of evidence they could from the scene. They blocked off the entire area, and then even more closely blocked off her house from the
public, of course, while they collected a lot of that evidence.
They are now, of course, searching for the person, searching for that shooter. They were doing so by air and by ground throughout the night
Friday. And now what they are trying to do is they are literally going door to door to every home along his street and in this neighborhood,
asking people if they have video security cameras that may provide some clue into who this person was.
GRACE: Oh! I am just sick!
PLOHETSKI: They told us they are also beginning the process of consulting cell phone technology, Nancy, to try to figure out who may have
been in the area not only that night, but potentially in the days leading up to this.
GRACE: You know, joining me right now, Candace Trunzo, in addition to Tony Plohetski, Candace Trunzo, senior news editor, Dailymail.com. You
know, Candace, when you put yourself out there as a judge or as a prosecutor, you make a lot of people mad. And that`s part of the job. You
make them mad.
They don`t want to go to jail. They don`t want to hear the facts against them in court. It makes them spitting mad. And that`s not just
limited to prosecutors, but judges, as well.
Candace Trunzo, Dailymail.com, I know that her boy and girl had been at that football game. Were they in the car when the shooter unleashed a
hail of bullets?
CANDACE TRUNZO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): You know, Nancy, I believe that they actually went home with friends, and they were not in the
car. She was in the car.
I mean, she is the beloved judge, the first female judge in her district. And she doled out a lot of punishment to, you know, 1,000 cases
a year. And we`re talking about murder cases, sex assault cases, drug crimes, Nancy. I mean, she really -- she`s in charge of the courts for
some of the worst criminals, probably, in the Austin area.
GRACE: Everybody, we are live and taking your calls. Justin, could you throw up our call number? And here`s the tip line, 512-472-8477.
Again, we are taking your calls. What do you know about this judge, Julie Kocurek? You know, we have researched her in detail, and she was truly
beloved. She`s known for being in the middle of the road as she doesn`t attack, verbally attack or belittle people that come into her courtroom.
Matt Zarrell, also on the story, she`s been involved in some pretty high-profile cases, right?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, she`s had several high-profile cases, including Governor Rick Perry`s case, former
U.S. House majority leader Tom DeLay.
Also another big case, Nancy, is that she unsealed a 75-page search warrant affidavit that linked a former Austin police officer, Vontrey
Clark, to the conspiracy to kill a crime victims counselor in the area in February of this year. She`s very active in the community, and as you
mentioned, she`s (INAUDIBLE) a number of cases...
GRACE: Did I hear you say Rick Perry?
ZARRELL: Yes.
GRACE: What can you tell me about that?
ZARRELL: OK. So the judge presided over one of Rick Perry`s cases. And during Perry`s case, Perry had said that he was confident he would
prevail and that this farce of a prosecution will be revealed for what it is and that those responsible would be made held accountable.
Now, the judge had made headlines, Nancy, because she suggested that Perry`s comments could be actually considered a threat.
GRACE: OK. Tony Plohetski, with "The Austin American-Statesman" -- Tony, you`re right there in Austin. What is this business about a threat?
What about Rick Perry?
PLOHETSKI: Well, there was some discussion last year when the governor was indicted on two charges, on two criminal charges. Those
charges did originate in the judge`s court. And there was some discussion about whether or not he had made a threat to grand jurors, people involved
in the investigation, saying that the charges were a farce and that he would hold whoever was responsible for what he described...
[20:10:07]GRACE: You know what?
PLOHETSKI: ... as the farce of charges responsible.
GRACE: You know what?
PLOHETSKI: So the judge did say that she was concerned about that, and that that could be construed as a threat, she did say.
GRACE: I don`t think Rick Perry would be that stupid. I just don`t see it. But of course, everything has got to be investigated.
You know, another interesting thing. Joe Scott Morgan with me, certified death investigator, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State
University. Joe Scott, thank you for being with us.
Interesting, wasn`t this with a long gun? Because that screams to me a male did it, OK, a male. And I`m going to go out on a limb. Not only do
I believe a male did it, but I believe a white male did it. Now, I want to hear your thoughts about the shooting.
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Well, in my opinion, Nancy, from what we`re hearing, this is something obviously
planned. The authorities need to be very, very careful in this case because her residence was obviously observed, cased. This thing was
planned out.
If there`s an obstruction in the driveway, they need to look for specific physical evidence, as you`ve already mentioned, relative to this
trash.
Now, given the fact that was at some distance, I think you`re not going to have anything contained on the body relative to the gunfire.
However, if the vehicle was struck and she was struck by, let`s say, shrapnel, glass, metal...
GRACE: Right.
MORGAN: ... this could be indication that she sustained other injuries that we`re going to have to look at.
GRACE: Hold on just a moment. I want to take -- I want to find out. -- Candace Trunzo, senior news editor, Dailymail.com, what do we know about
the weapon? Was it, in fact, a long gun? Do we have a caliber? Have they released that yet?
TRUNZO: No, they have not released it. What they do know is that there were four shots fired quickly, fired successively. Neighbors heard
the shots. But at this point, they don`t know exactly what the caliber of gun was.
GRACE: You know, Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert, very quickly, that is a really upscale neighborhood. And I would be very
surprised if either the judge or somebody else on that street doesn`t have security cameras.
But what I`m hearing, Ben Levitan, is this was an ambush. The perp put something in front of the gate. They waited for to get -- stop the
car. They had to be hiding in those bushes. Let`s see the house, again. They had to be hiding in those bushes and fire on the judge when the car
stops, and I guess, the husband gets out to move the trash can.
What more can we learn from telecommunications or security cams, Ben?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT (via telephone): Well, Nancy, there is a -- here`s a big part of the investigation that we`ve already
talked about. There`s one cell tower that covers that area, that covers the area of the judge`s home.
The cell phone companies know exactly who was connected to that cell tower on Friday night. The police can go to them and ask for a cell tower
dump. And what that will do is dump to the police a list of everybody who is connected to that cell tower, therefore, in that area that night. We
may find suspects, but more importantly, we may find witnesses, Nancy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four gunshots, very quick succession. There wasn`t any spacing. Just bang, bang, bang, bang.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:17:32]GRACE: Live to East Charlotte suburbs. A 21-year-old mom at home feeding her young son when home invaders burst through the front
door. She rushes her baby to safety, puts him in his crib. The mom, a combat medic with the National Guard, then grabs her husband`s gun and
fires back, to no avail. The home invaders get away. And at this hour, the 21-year-old mother, Semantha, hangs onto life critically wounded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was a little hesitant to answer because she was feeding the baby and all. And then the intruders came in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when those suspects fired, she fired back. Police aren`t saying if they were hit, but they said Bunce was shot in the
chest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This investigation is going full force ahead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Shot in the chest. Can you imagine? This 21-year-old mom, at home with her little baby boy, when suddenly, she hears a sound at the
front door. She runs through the house, hides the baby in the crib and turns. She grabs her husband`s gun, takes a shot at them, to no avail.
They shoot the mom, the mom at this hour clinging to life in the hospital.
Dan O`Donnell, anchor, reporter with WISN, what can you tell me about this event? Was it at night? Was it at daytime. Wasn`t she alone in the
home?
DAN O`DONNELL, WISN (via telephone): ... alone, Nancy. This happened at about 10:00 o`clock in the morning. She was doing a mid-morning feeding
with her 4-month-old son when first she heard the doorbell ring. Then she heard pounding on the door. And then the intruders just kicked down the
door.
As you said, she ran to put the baby safely in his crib, grabbed her husband`s gun. It appears that these guys were surprised that anyone was
home at the time because it was in the middle of the morning. So they started opening fire almost as soon as they entered the house.
GRACE: I can see the door is covered with fingerprint powder. You can see that dark graphite powder on the front door. Take a look at the
home. I wonder if they were bamming on the garage door or the door to the right. Dan O`Donnell joining us, anchor, reporter WISN. Do we know if
they were bamming at the garage door or that front door located to the right of the garage?
[20:20:00]Let`s see a picture of her home again. There you go.
O`DONNELL: Yes, I`m under the impression that it was front door that they were pounding on, and then actually were able to kick down before they
got into the house.
GRACE: Let`s take a look at the house from a distance. I`m wondering if she was upstairs because it bought her a few moments -- if she was
upstairs feeding the baby. Let`s take a look from (sic) the house at a distance. It`s my understanding, the mom may have been upstairs feeding
the baby when she hears all this. She hears, did you say a doorbell ringing, then a pounding, Dan O`Donnell?
O`DONNELL: Yes. Doorbell rang, then the knock, and then the thieves must have assumed nobody was home, so they kicked down the door.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s definitely a shock to everybody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bunce says there were two suspects with a gun who met his daughter-in-law at her bedroom door.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Feeding the baby and all, and then the intruders came in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`ve added extra patrols to reassure a neighborhood that`s been on edge since that shooting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Everyone, you are taking a look at a young mom, just 21 years old, at home alone with her baby boy when she hears first a doorbell ring
from downstairs, then a knock at the door. She`s in the middle of feeding the baby, doesn`t go to the door, when suddenly, the door is kicked in.
Home invaders rush into their suburban home as she is upstairs feeding the baby.
[20:25:18]She`s a combat medic with the National Guard. She runs and puts the baby where she thinks he`ll be safe in his crib and goes for her
husband`s gun. She gets a shot off, but to no avail. The home invaders shoot her in the chest. Right now, she`s in the hospital clinging to life.
Our prayers going out to Semantha Bunce right now, mom of two.
Couple of more questions to you, Dan O`Donnell, WISN. Where was the husband? Was he at work?
O`DONNELL: Yes, we believe the husband was at work.
GRACE: OK, and it`s my understanding he`s fully cooperating. Also, in this neighborhood, any chance there`s security cameras?
O`DONNELL: There are always a chance for security cameras. I know investigators are looking at the possibility that a neighbor`s camera might
have seen something, might have captured part of this incident.
GRACE: Well, let me ask you this, Dan. Was she able to give, or could anybody give a description?
O`CONNELL: Yes. In fact, she was able to provide the description of the suspect.
GRACE: Question to you. Dan O`Donnell, we`re showing the neighborhood right now. Somebody had to hear the gunshots. Who called
911?
O`CONNELL: Oh, yes, absolutely. The neighbors actually reported hearing the gunshots and then a loud noise coming from next door, which was
probably another gunshot, and reported this incident to police, calling 911. Within minutes, authorities were on the scene.
GRACE: With me, clinical psychologist Dr. Seth Meyers. Seth, thanks for being with us. What makes some people try to fight back and some
people run out the back door?
SETH MEYERS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes. Great question. Well, people who fight back are going to feel more confident and more competent in their
ability to protect themselves. So I would say that some of the military training that this woman experienced probably was very helpful to her in
this incident.
GRACE: Joining me right now, I`m hearing in my ear, is a close friend of the victim, Semantha, and has started a Gofundme page. It is Hollie
Ritchie joining us out of Charleston. Hollie, thank you so much for being with us.
HOLLIE RITCHIE, FRIEND OF VICTIM (via telephone): Oh, thank you, Nancy. Thank you for having me and taking Semantha`s story.
GRACE: You know, I am so impressed with her wherewithal, that as home invaders are coming in the door, she has the wherewithal to go hide the
baby and try to protect her home and protect her child and get a shot off at these guys. It`s amazing. What kind of a person is she?
RITCHIE: She`s an incredible person, incredibly strong-willed and very confident, just like Seth was saying, very confident, very competent
in what she does, very level-headed, can do just about anything you ask of her with -- or, you know, without question.
GRACE: With me on the phone, a close friend of Semantha`s. It is Hollie Ritchie joining us and taking your calls. Hollie, you know, this is
a pretty safe neighborhood. And you`d think a mother at home feeding her infant child would be safe, the door locked, you know, the husband`s gone
to work. Tell me about the moment you learned that she was a shooting victim of a home invasion, of all things.
RITCHIE: Oh, my gosh. Like you said about her neighborhood, I`ve been there with her baby shower. So when I got the phone call at work here
in Charleston, I was completely devastated to hear about this., not just to happen to anybody, but particularly for somebody like Semantha. It was a
complete shock.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:34:10]
GRACE: Outrage, when a McDonald`s worker caught on video taunting a hungry and homeless man with food. And then when the starving guy
approaches to get the burger, the McDonald`s worker cruelly throws a cold drink in the guy`s face before bursting out in laughter. Fyi, that`s an
assault. So tonight, McDonald`s, what are you going to do about it?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A McDonald`s worker was caught on camera teasing an apparent homeless man with food.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come here, you want a sandwich?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then throwing cold water at the man as he tried to retrieve the sandwich.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, we`re easing into the Christmas season. And this is what`s happening? Justin, I want to run this from the very beginning with
sound, please. I want to hear what`s happening.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come here! You want a sandwich? Come on I`m about to give you a sandwich, man.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, man.
I`m about to help you.
Come on, man.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: World star. World star!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, man. Man, that`s all right, though.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s real funny. You know, Charlie Langton, WWJ, joining us, reporter. Charlie, when I saw that, it just made me sick. I cover
violent crimes, I`ve tried violent crimes my whole legal career. But the way this McDonald`s worker taunted this homeless guy, who had been starving
and wanting food, and then offers him a burger and then throws a cold drink in his face? Then he and whoever took this video just die laughing? What
happened?
CHARLES LANGTON, WWJ: Well, this happened on -- there are some homeless people. Every so often, the homeless people do go to McDonald`s.
Every so often, sometimes McDonald`s does help them. I guess the homeless person didn`t think anything of it to just come and get a sandwich of some
kind. And then he comes up, the McDonald`s worker throws a cup of water in the guy`s face. It`s just unbelievable, really. The name of Willie. We
heard him there. The person that made the video, we`re told, this guy named Skees (ph), claims there was an argument earlier between Willie, the
homeless guy and the McDonald`s worker. However, I spoke to a representative.
GRACE: Yes, you know what, you know what, Charlie Langton, I don`t like woulda, coulda, shoulda, tell me what happened, now when you`re busted
on a video, you go, well, yes, so and so happened a couple of hours ago. I don`t believe it. I believe my own eyes. Unleash the lawyers.
David Windecher joining us, defense attorney, author of the "American Dream, his Story in the Making." And Misty Marris, defense attorney out of
New York. No offense, but I don`t know what there is possibly to smile about, what we just saw. But to both of you, what that McDonald`s worker
did in my book is an assault. Because we all know the law. Well, we should all three know the law handed down by the United States Supreme
Court, David. And the landmark case in this which I`m sure the two of you must have studied in law school is when a black male was in line at a
buffet. It was like Kwanis or a Rotary club. Some club. And someone comes up and jerks the plate out of his hand. And that went all the way up
the appellate ladder, and it was deemed that if someone touches something attached to your body, for instance, if you jerk my mike off my chest or I
yank your tie, pull a plate from your hand, or throw water on you, it`s even been construed to when someone beats your car. And you`re sitting in
the car. The car`s attached to your body, David. That is deemed an assault.
WINDECHER: That`s correct, Nancy. But there`s also reports saying he was harassing customers. So if he`s harassing customers, the employee can
actually go to the defense of them. It`s called the defense of others. And so if he has --
GRACE: The defense of others.
WINDECHER: That`s correct, Nancy.
GRACE: Sticks and stones, David. Sticks and stones. Words alone do not justify an attack. Now, put -- you know, take a look at this. As it`s
playing, Windecher. You know, I don`t know why you can`t accept when you`re beat, all right? It`s like shooting a fish in a barrel on this one.
I mean, come on, raise the white flag. It`s done. This guy is toast. A civil lawsuit against this guy, and sadly, McDonald`s, which I love a lot.
But this is not okay. And now, the story is, Windecher -- and I see you shaking your head. The story is now that, oh, this homeless guy, they had
an argument earlier. Oh, and now the story is he`s harassing customers? That`s the new story?
MARRIS: Nancy, first of all, of course this worker`s actions are in poor taste. But as far as criminal, no way. An assault has to have the
element of intent to cause serious physical injury.
GRACE: Excuse me.
[20:40:00]
MARRIS: Clearly, that`s not here.
(CROSSTALK)
MARRIS: For a civil case.
GRACE: Misty, you`re misstating the law. You`re right that is assault for aggravated assault. Serious intentional infliction of harm or
when someone is in great fear of immediate bodily harm. Don`t shake your head, because simple assault -- that`s not the definition for simple
assault.
(CROSSTALK)
MARRIS: Then here`s the deal. McDonald`s is going to be held --
GRACE: I said s-i-m-p-l-e. Simple assault. And another thing to you two. Tort is not just a French dessert. It`s a civil action. Ring a
bell?
WINDECHER: That`s correct, Nancy. But guess what? It`s a vicarious liability issue. And guess what, the employer is not going to be held
accountable for any act of the employee outside the scope of employment. So McDonald`s is going to be out of the hook on this one real fast. The
employer is not going to be held accountable, period, end of story.
GRACE: I`m talking about this guy, and what this guy did to me is a tort. And this homeless guy may not be homeless for much longer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:45:00]
GRACE: Caught on camera. The very last moments of a luxury cruise line passenger`s life on an all-inclusive trip through the Caribbean
falling to his death off the side of the Royal Oasis luxury cruiser. The cruise line insisting it was suicide. And if so, the cruise line escapes
liability. But did the cruise ship overserve him to total intoxication before his death fall?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (inaudible), he fell overboard. And Royal Caribbean was right there on the scene as he fell in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Royal Caribbean painting a different picture.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Chris Spargo joining us. Reporter with dailymail.com. Chris, this is what`s disturbing me. Justin, can you pull up? Hold on, I want to
see this video. This is the video we`re talking about. The last moments of this guy`s life before he falls to his death. Look at him hanging on
right there. Look at this, look at this. Keep looking. You hear everybody yelling and screaming? Oh, dear Lord. That is cell phone video
from Youtube of Bernardo hanging on to the ship right before he falls into the ocean. And I am telling you. This is what I`ve learned, Chris Spargo,
Dailymail.com. He was there celebrating an anniversary with his partner.
CHRIS SPARGO, DAILYMAIL.COM: That is correct.
GRACE: And I just don`t see him picking that moment to commit suicide! I think he was overserved from what we`re learning. Chris Spargo,
before I get into the minutia of what happened, tell me how he ended up -- what is he holding on to? How did he get up there?
SPARGO: So, he`s actually, what he fell on to was one of the beams that supports the lifeboats on the ship and he was hanging there for about
five minutes. They were celebrating their one-year anniversary and his husband`s birthday. They had gone to a late dinner, and then after the
dinner, Bernardo went to the bar, where he was drinking. Apparently someone made a homophobic comment, he went back to his room, security was
called, and at some point during the exchange he fell overboard.
GRACE: Chris, Chris, Chris -- my question to you was, let`s take it from the beginning. Chris Spargo, let`s get it back in the middle of the
road, okay? I want to hear the nuts and bolts of his fall. And I`m referring to it as a fall.
SPARGO: Okay.
GRACE: Because I don`t think this guy committed suicide.
SPARGO: No, no.
GRACE: Chris, how did he get out? Why was he hanging? Let`s see the video, on the edge of the ship? How did he get out there? Don`t they have
a fence for Pete`s sake?
SPARGO: So he, during an exchange with security in his room, he went out to the balcony and he went over. And as he fell down, he grabbed one
of the beams that supports one of the lifeboats and was hanging there.
GRACE: You know, this is not the first time that someone has met with an ill fate on a cruise ship. Could you pull up those photos for me,
Justin. There was George Smith, the missing groom. All right? Everybody was drunk out of their gourds that night. There was Fariba Amani, there
was Lorie Kakantis (ph), Mickey Kanesaki. There are so many, many others. The list is endless. What`s going on on the cruise ship?
With me now, Michael Winkleman, attorney for the victim in this case. Michael, thanks for being with us. I just don`t see him jumping and
committing suicide. Had they been drinking? Do you believe he was overserved before his death plunge?
MICHAEL WINKLEMAN, ATTORNEY: First, Nancy, thank you so much for having me on. The short answer here is absolutely. And like all of the
big overboard cases, many of which I have handled, the overservice of alcohol is always a factor. Always.
GRACE: You know, I get it that the passengers are not going to be driving drunk. Maybe these cruise ship workers, and this is a maybe, don`t
understand that there is still danger lurking. A., why do you want somebody drunk on a ship in the middle of the ocean that could fall to
their death. And B., who wants to be on a luxury cruise ship when you`re surrounded by 3,000 or 4,000 totally drunk people? That`s just a horrible
recipe, Michael.
WINKLEMAN: Sure.
GRACE: Michael, question, if this is a suicide, as the Royal Caribbean cruise ship is claiming, did they escape any and all liability?
WINKLEMAN: No. Absolutely not. And I think what`s most important is that Royal Caribbean is trying to frame this as a domestic dispute,
Nancy, and this was anything but a domestic dispute.
[20:50:00]
This was something that was directly caused by misconduct of the Royal Caribbean crew members. The crews that were basically harassing this
legally married gay couple.
GRACE: You know, interesting, Josh Sabarra is with us, out of LA, author of best seller, "Porn Again." Josh, in your book, you talk a great
deal about coming out, late in life, and enduring bullying. What do you make of this series of events? A, I don`t think it`s suicide, but B, now
it`s been injected that he was being bullied or taunted because he`s gay, and then this happens.
JOSH SABARRA, AUTHOR: Well, Nancy, the effects of bullying, as you know, are long-lasting. I was bullied from the time I was six years old,
and, you know, at 40, I still struggle with feeling accepted and adequate. So, I do think that the impact can be long-lasting. In this particular
case, though, it seems that, you know, I don`t, I don`t think that, that the -- that it would be a suicide as a result of, you know, one taunt.
GRACE: One or two exchanges or taunts. Yes, it`s wrong, but to claim this guy, who was there celebrating his anniversary, is going to suddenly
plunge to his death? And another thing, unleash the lawyers, Misty Marris, David Windecher. I`ve take an cruise, I had a perfectly wonderful cruise
on a Disney ship, with the children. It was awesome. But let me talk about this cruise right here. How is it a passenger could get out on that,
I guess a landing, or whatever he was. He wasn`t supposed to be there.
MARRIS: He wasn`t. And how is that the cruise ship`s responsibility for the autonomous acts of that person? As long as that cruise ship was up
to code, the railings were as high as they were supposed to be, according to what is standard in the industry, there`s no way there`s going to be
liability on the cruise ship for his act of going to a place where he wasn`t supposed to be.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:57:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is 35-year-old Bernardo Albaz (ph), cell phone video catches him clinging to the side of a cruise ship moments
before falling to his death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What really happened was not a suicide. He did not jump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What you`re seeing is video taken from a cell phone posted to Youtube. This guy, a passenger on the Oasis Royal Caribbean cruise ship, a
luxury ship, somehow ends up outside the ship and falls to his death. Now the Royal Caribbean cruise line says it was a suicide. If it`s a suicide,
why is he hanging on? Why is he hanging on? That`s my question for the lawyers, who keep telling me it`s a suicide. And Misty Marris pointed out
that they`re not supposed to be in that area, that there are fences and rails, but that`s not my line of reasoning. While you`re right about that,
Chris Spargo, I`m talking about the booze. Chris, Dailymail, did they overserve him? Was his blood alcohol level taken, Chris, that`s my
question?
SPARGO: It was not taken. The Coast Guard is yet to recover his body -- actually from the ocean--
GRACE: Oh, no, oh no. Okay. Um, you know, it`s not fitting together for me, Josh Sabarra, author of "Porn Again," who is describing the
bullying that comes along with coming out and the taunting this guy may have endured before his death, but it doesn`t fit together, Josh. I mean,
they`re there celebrating an anniversary, and if he wants to kill himself, why hold on? With a death grip, trying not to go into the water?
SABARRA: Yes, Nancy, I don`t believe for a second that the bullying or the taunts or the slurs had anything to do with this. It seems to me
like it`s an -- probably an alcohol-related thing. Typically a suicide from bullying would be a cumulative thing, it would be the build-up of
years of taunting and being made fun of, and I don`t see that to be an issue in this case.
GRACE: We`ll stay on it. Let`s remember American hero, Marine Corporal Carlos Ariano Pandura, 22, Rosary (ph), California, Purple Heart,
loved sports, fearless, outgoing, father Robert, mother Amelia, brothers Robert and Marco. Carlos Ariano, American hero.
And tonight, happy birthday to Georgia friend, Barbara. Devoted husband Bill, three daughters, Kim, Kathy, and Michelle. Loves time with
her eight grandchildren. She`s an Auburn grad, big War Eagle fan. Taught elementary school many, many years, and just celebrated her 50th wedding
anniversary. Isn`t she beautiful? Happy birthday, Barbara. Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off.
I will see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
