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Nancy Grace
Police Officer Body-Slams 13-Year-Old Schoolboy/Mother, Toddler Found Shot to Death. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired November 11, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news now, outrage! Live to Kissimmee, Florida, where a local cop caught on video body-slamming a schoolboy in the
lobby of Kissimmee middle school. Bombshell now. The boy`s mother, standing by, says she was, quote, "helpless" as her son slammed to the
floor, all while the camera`s rolling.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The already tense situation quickly escalated.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He came in with such a hostile manner, like he was ready for war.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From the officer pointing his finger in the boy`s face to Badia actually grabbing the boy`s face, then pushing the 84-pound
boy so hard, it knocked him backwards.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, a young mom found dead in her home, still tenderly holding her toddler girl, who was also murdered. We want justice!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neighbors and those who visit this area still can`t believe that a mother and her young child were murdered in such
violent fashion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just mind-blowing just to see that baby getting carried away in that bag.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Holding her toddler in their kitchen when someone shot them both multiple times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, a 1-year-old toddler left home alone found murdered while Mommy reportedly out clubbing at the local nightclub?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say only children were present when an 8- year-old boy beat little 1-year-old Kelci Lewis to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think they`re trying to allege that she was negligent or reckless in some particular way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators also believe that Katerra Lewis was at a nightclub with a friend while her daughter was dying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Tacoma, caught on camera, the stunning moment a 78- year-old grandma stumbles onto three armed burglars in her own home. We have the video!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bumbling burglars made just enough noise to wake the wrong person.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I opened the door and I started down here, and I saw them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Crowbar in hand, he grabs her purse and heads toward the bedroom where Messina (ph) was sleeping.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get the hell out of here!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That surveillance video from Nest.com.
And live -- now, that`s revenge! A Texas wife repays her alleged cheating husband, spray painting his pickup truck, calling him out. Stack
this jury with women, and good luck, Judge!
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Outrage! Live to Kissimmee, Florida, where a local cop caught on video body-slamming a schoolboy in the lobby of a
Kissimmee middle school. The boy`s mother, standing by, says she was, quote, "helpless," as her son slammed to the floor. All the while, cameras
rolling.
Look at this. Push, push, push, twist the arm and down! Got the arm behind his back. The boy can`t move. He is wincing in pain, crying out.
There you go. No. No! No! No! That is not right!
But I`ve got to find out what exactly was being said, what happened. Ray Caputo joining me, WDBO. Ray, what do we know?
RAY CAPUTO, WDBO (via telephone): A young 13-year-old middle school student was having an issue with Mom. She was trying to bring him to
school one morning. It`s early May. And it looks like he was being a bit difficult. On surveillance video, we see him sitting in the lobby. And
that`s when Kissimmee police officer Mario Badia, who`s also a school resource officer there, he was called over to help.
GRACE: You know, Michael Christian, it`s being argued that the boy started it. I`m not seeing it. Can we go -- let me see the video again,
please, in full. I want to see exactly what we can see.
Now, that`s the twisting arm part. OK, I think that`s the mother rushing over and saying something. Let`s take it from the top. There you
go.
I`m not seeing the boy striking out at the police, Michael Christian, but that is the argument. Michael, is that true?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Nancy, according to what the policeman first said in his report, he was trying to
get the boy`s attention, so he touched his chin. The boy tried to block his hand, and that`s when the melee happened. But a police investigation,
according to an affidavit, when they looked at the video, they did not see that at all.
GRACE: OK, Liz, let`s try to slow it down. Let`s put this in slow-mo to see if I can see the boy hit the police officer. Uh-uh. No. Take it
on through, but I want to see it from the very beginning because I want to see if the boy hits the cop first.
[20:05:14]There you see the takedown in slow-mo. The boy is not fighting back at all. OK. No, the boy did not hit the cop first. Watch
this. The boy never is hitting back at the cop, not at all, nothing. There`s the arm twist. The boy goes down in pain. And then he twists the
arm behind him.
This boy is not armed. This boy doesn`t have narcotics on him. He doesn`t have a knife. He doesn`t have a gun, nothing. He`s fussing with
his mother in the lobby of Kissimmee middle school.
Unleash the lawyers. Kisha Hebbon is with me out of New York, Kirby Clements, defense attorney out of Atlanta. And also joining us, certified
child welfare law specialist Ashley Willcott.
This all came out of Kissimmee, Florida, body-slam caught on tape. First of all, I want to go to you, Kisha Hebbon. What is your defense of
this police officer?
KISHA HEBBON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, First of all, Nancy, I need to hear what was actually said. I`m only seeing the video, but I`m not
hearing what was said...
GRACE: What was said?
HEBBON: ... between the student and the officer. And we don`t know if the student made a threat to the officer and the officer had to take him
down to defend himself.
GRACE: Wa-wa-wait! Put her up! Have you heard one scintilla of evidence about a threat? I mean, I don`t know if you`ve read the arrest
affidavit in your preparation, but even in the police officer`s own statement, Kisha Hebbon, he does not discuss any such threat. And if
anyone would have revealed a threat by the student, by the boy on the police officer, it would have been the cop! He didn`t even mention it. No
threat.
HEBBON: But I still would like to hear the audio. And we don`t know this student`s history within the school. Why is his mother up at the
school? He is obviously a problem child. We just need to know more...
GRACE: Is he a problem child?
HEBBON: Why is his mother at the school? He obviously has a history of not...
GRACE: Did you hear Ray Caputo -- didn`t you hear Ray Caputo said she was just bringing him to school? This is at about at 8:00 o`clock in the
morning.
HEBBON: Well, Nancy, the thing is, we need to get more information before we can say this officer did anything of abuse or criminal actions
against this student. We can`t...
GRACE: You know what I like about you, Kisha Hebbon? First of all -- please put her up. First of all, you say that there was a threat, all
right? Then I show you the arrest affidavit, which I believe we provided to you, where you see the police officer`s narrative as to what happened.
He does not mention a threat on him by the boy, all right? So that didn`t happen.
HEBBON: Well, the jury...
GRACE: Then you say -- then you say, Obviously, he was causing a problem. He`s been a problem at school. Well, he just got to school at
8:00 o`clock in the morning. Then you say, I need more information.
HEBBON: But why would the officer even have to have a conversation with the student? Clearly, something happened. I don`t think he just...
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They called the officer.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I agree -- uh-oh, Kirby Clements is tuning up. Of course, Kirby, something happened. Something happened. He`s having an argument
with his mother, but that doesn`t require a body-slam, does it?
CLEMENTS: No -- well, two things. Number one, they -- something happened that made them feel the need to call the police, number one. So
it was more serious than...
GRACE: Something happened?
CLEMENTS: ... you`re making it sound like.
CLEMENTS: No, something that needed police intervention. And secondly...
GRACE: Are you serious, Kirby? As many cases as I know you`ve tried...
CLEMENTS: I am very serious.
GRACE: ... you want me to go on "something happened"?
CLEMENTS: No, something that required...
GRACE: That`s not enough under the law!
CLEMENTS: ... the police happening. No, but also, if you look at that video, I don`t think you rolled it back far enough because I did see
it looked as if the officer put his hand up there and the boy knocked his hand away. That appeared to me to be what was there.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Let`s rewind, Kirby Clements. Let`s rewind, Kirby Clements.
CLEMENTS: There you go, right there!
GRACE: You just said...
CLEMENTS: Right before that.
GRACE: ... the officer put his hand, quote, "up there." What he did was grab the boy`s chin, and the boy held his hand up to block the officer,
according to witnesses.
You know, with me also, Ashley Willcott, certified child welfare law specialist. Ashley, help me out here. Are you siding with the defense
attorneys?
ASHLEY WILLCOTT, CERTIFIED CHILD WELFARE LAW SPECIALIST: No, Nancy...
GRACE: This is not OK!
WILLCOTT: ... I`m not in this case. It`s not OK.
GRACE: You know, when you drop your children -- I believe you`ve got what, three children? You drop your boy off who`s about this age. Next
thing you know, he`s getting his arm twisted behind him, behind his back, with his mouth on the floor in the lobby of the school? Uh-uh! N-O! No
way!
WILLCOTT: No, I completely agree with you, Nancy. And here are the concerns I have. Number one, this is a school resource officer. He should
specifically be trained to know how to deal with kids who may have outbursts or may have issues or may react, right? He`s trying to touch the
child`s chin, and the child reacts.
He`s 13. He`s 13. They say he weighs 84 pounds. The school resource officer should have specific knowledge about how to deal with this child
without having to wrestle him to the ground.
[20:10:03]GRACE: Can I ask you all a question? Let me start with Kirby Clements. Kirby, if a police officer comes up and grabs you by your
chin, are you going to take that? You`re not going to at least block it? Oh, what`s the difference, you`re a grown man, that`s a child? So that
makes it OK?
CLEMENTS: I`m a grown man, and if I`m not committing a crime or doing something that requires them being called and he tries to grabs my chin,
yes, I`m going to knock it away. But in this situation, something happened that required the police to be called.
GRACE: Why do you keep saying something happened?
CLEMENTS: Well, how did he get there? He didn`t -- he`s not a genie in a bottle and just appeared! They called him there.
GRACE: I agree with you, the cop got called. But that does not necessarily mean, ergo the boy must be thrown to the ground.
Let`s take it in slo-mo again, Liz, from the beginning, to make -- to -- there you go, right -- right there! Did you see that, Kirby?
CLEMENTS: I saw it.
GRACE: The cop grabs the kid at the chin, and the boy holds up his hand. Ray Caputo, WDBO, can you clarify this at all for me?
CAPUTO: About his hand? Well, listen, this kid apparently is not doing anything wrong. And the officer, you know, in the arrest report says
something to the effect that he was agitated or he seemed to be worked up.
It appears, Nancy, that this Officer Badia just lost it and he overreacted. He twists this kid`s arm. This goes on for 40 seconds. And
this man is 5-7, 175 pounds. This young kid is 13, and as you said, 84 pounds. It was totally unnecessary.
GRACE: OK, let me ask you another question, just to put the icing on the cake, Ray Caputo, WDBO. Is it true that since this incident -- tell
you what. Now, if my child had committed a crime, I understand this. But if my child is standing there arguing with someone, even if it`s me, God
help me -- arguing with me, this is not OK. This is wrong, and I`m going to call the officer out.
Is it true, Ray Caputo -- this is a yes/no answer. Is it true that this officer has been paid around $15,000 since this occurred?
CAPUTO: Yes, that is true.
GRACE: Why?
CAPUTO: Well, Nancy, here`s the thing. It`s that he is -- they`ve already sent him an official memo that they plan to fire him. Later this
month, he`s going to be meeting with...
GRACE: Plan to? Plan to?
CAPUTO: He`ll have to go on trial.
GRACE: What are we -- to get fired? You`ve got to go on trial to get fired?
CAPUTO: Apparently so in Kissimmee.
GRACE: OK, I`ve never heard that under the Constitution.
To Kisha Hebbon, Kirby Clements and Ashley Willcott. Ashley, a weak body-slam? I mean, that doesn`t even fit together. That`s like a little
pregnant. That`s impossible. Either it`s a body-slam or not a body-slam, Ashley.
WILLCOTT: Right, I agree. It is, I agree. And it`s whether or not it`s an intentional act that could cause harm to the child. And in this
case, it appears as if it is. (INAUDIBLE) different.
GRACE: OK, Kirby, final word?
CLEMENTS: I think the child went down because of the maneuver, but it wasn`t a body-slam. He just fell because of the maneuver. There you go.
GRACE: Oh!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:17:15]GRACE: A young mother found dead in her own home, still tenderly holding her toddler girl, who was also murdered. We want justice!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-five-year-old Veronica Mercado and her 2- year-old daughter, Michelle (ph), were shot to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To see that baby getting carried away in that bag is just -- it`s just mind-blowing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mercado was holding her toddler in their kitchen when someone shot them both multiple times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Justin Freiman, how was the mother found? What can you tell me about the crime scene?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Nancy, officers showed up doing a welfare check on this home. When they went in, it was a
terrifying scene. They found the two victims, the mom still with her little child in her arms, dead, victims of gunshot.
GRACE: You know, what`s disturbing me -- Dr. Sean Enloe, forensic pathologist joining us out of LA. Dr. Enloe, I`m trying to understand what
happened here. When the police arrived, the mother was still holding the baby in her arms. Now, how could that have happened physically from these
gunshot wounds?
DR. SEAN ENLOE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: The most likely possibility is that she was holding the child while they were both shot. It is possible
for sometimes people to still be alive, depending upon the gunshot wound, and pick something up, sort of clinging to her dying child. But it is most
likely, without further information. to assume that they were both shot at the same time.
GRACE: Justin Freiman, what can you tell me about the time of death, who found her, who called 911? I`m trying to get more facts about what
happened.
FREIMAN: Nancy, a friend had called because they had gotten a call from somebody else and it caused concern for them and they wanted police to
go and do a welfare check. They did this welfare check shortly after noon, and that`s when they found these two bodies, as they said, clinging to each
other.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:23:20]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neighbors and those who visit this area still can`t believe that a mother and her young child were murdered in such
violent fashion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just mind-blowing just to see that baby getting carried away in that bag.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Holding her toddler in their kitchen when someone shot them both multiple times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, I`m noticing, Justin Freiman, on the story, that there are not any gunshot entry from outside the home. That means that
whoever it was gained access to the home. Was there forced entry, Justin?
FREIMAN: Yes, Nancy. They found that the front door had been forced open when they arrived on that welfare check.
GRACE: So it`s somebody that doesn`t have a key. Was there any signs that the young mother, 26-year-old Veronica, fought back? Was she
ambushed?
FREIMAN: As far as police are saying right now, there weren`t signs of that. They`re only saying that she was still holding her daughter when
she was lying dead in the kitchen.
GRACE: So it was in the kitchen. It seems to me that the perp comes through the door, forces his way in. And it seems targeted.
To Jeffrey Boney, joining us from "Houston Forward Times." Was there a sex attack? And was anything stolen?
JEFFREY BONEY, "HOUSTON FORWARD TIMES" (via telephone): Well, according to friends and neighbors, Veronica Mercado worked at the El
Lolilo (ph) bakery in southeast Houston as a cashier for the past three or four years. And her co-workers are on the record as saying that her
scorned ex-boyfriend, 22-year-old Jonathan...
GRACE: OK. I`m trying to find out, Rita Cosby, was there anything stolen, or was there a sex attack?
[20:25:02]RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: No, there was not.
GRACE: OK. What more do we know about the scene itself, Rita?
COSBY: Well, we know that there was a hail of bullets. We know that authorities believe it was some sort of revenge or some sort of personal
dispute because there was a hail of bullets.
And somehow, as you point out, the person got inside and was familiar with the house. They were apparently in the kitchen, as you point out,
which is so sad that the mother was clinging to her baby at the time. But both suffered multiple gunshot wounds.
GRACE: Right now manhunt, Jonathan Figueroa (ph), age 23, in a 2004 maroon Ford Taurus, Texas plate C-cat-T-Texas-F-3-2-2-4 (ph).
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:30:10]
GRACE: A 1-year-old tot girl left home alone found murdered while mommy reportedly out clubbing at the local nightclub.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When an 8-year-old boy beat little 1-year-old Kelsie Lewis to death, investigators also believe Katerra Lewis was at a
nightclub with a friend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course my client has a different story about what transpired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host. Dave, thanks for being with us. Let me understand this. You`ve got the one
mother, Katerra Lewis, who goes out with her friend, leaves her little girl, Kelsie, who is a toddler. Let`s just see a picture of Kelsie,
please. I know we`ve got a string of photos of the baby. There you go. This is the little baby that is left alone with five other children, all
under the age of 8. 8 and under. A 2-year-old, 4-year-old, a 6-year-old, a 7-year-old and an 8-year-old. This baby is dead. This baby sustained
blunt trauma to the head and massive internal injuries to her internal organs. I don`t know how long the baby laid there dead. To the right is
the mother, Katerra Lewis. She goes out clubbing and doesn`t drag in until about 2:30 a.m. With her friend. Dave Mack, did either one of these women
who call themselves mother, did either one of them check on their children before they flopped into bed?
MACK: No, Nancy, they didn`t check on them until 10:45 the next morning.
GRACE: I just gave a summation, or a closing argument. What more can you tell me? Is there anything else I need to know about the facts before
I render a verdict?
MACK: Yes, ma`am. Nancy, this case has been deeply investigated and family, the biological grandmother here is saying that there was another
adult in the home, although there`s no evidence to support that. What we have is two women left six children in the care of an 8-year-old. They
left at 11:30 at night, went clubbing until 2:00 a.m. When they came home in whatever condition they were, they decided not to check on any of the
children. The story that we know is from a 6-year-old who witnessed the beating that the 8-year-old administered to this 1-year-old toddler. She
would not quit crying. The 6-year-old`s story adds up with what the police have identified was the physical evidence. That`s where they`re getting
their information. It`s the most shocking and disturbing thing you`ll ever hear in your life and I can`t imagine these people calling themselves
mothers and grandmothers and defending this situation.
GRACE: You know, I want to see the picture of the baby, Kelsie, with that pacie that you were just showing me. When I look at that picture, I
feel the little girl is looking right at me. Right at me. Look at this precious child. Left alone at 11:30 at night. I don`t even think the baby
could walk. I`m not sure yet. Yes, she can. She can stand up. She`s 1 year old, she`s left at home. The two mommies out clubbing, 11:30 at
night. They drag in at 2:00 a.m., 2:30 a.m., and don`t check the children.
Rita Cosby, what do we know about the 8-year-old little boy murdering the 1-year-old girl and then putting her back in the crib?
COSBY: Yes, because the mothers found the baby in the crib and right away saw some physical injuries. There was apparently blunt force trauma
to the head of this little 1-year-old, who was in the crib and was unresponsive when she was found at 10:45 the next morning. The mother then
called authorities and the baby was pronounced dead, but there was visible injuries and also many internal injuries.
GRACE: Okay. Unleash the lawyers for me. Ashley Wilcott, certified child welfare law specialist, Kisha Hebbon, Kirby Clements, former
prosecutor turned defense attorney.
Kirby Clements, as of right now, the mother does not have a murder charge. I believe this should be felony murder. I want you to answer me
one thing, Kirby Clements. Felony murder is when in the commission of a felony, a death occurs. It does not require specific intent to commit a
crime. It does not require intent to commit a murder.
[20:35:00]
But, for instance, if you and I rob a bank and I suddenly take my Uzi and shoot everybody dead and you look at me and you`re like, what? You didn`t
plan on a death, but you were committing a felony and a death occurred. That`s what felony murder is, isn`t it?
CLEMENTS: Yes, Nancy. However --
GRACE: I don`t like that tone.
CLEMENTS: Well, you shouldn`t like the tone because you`re also wrong.
GRACE: That is felony murder.
CLEMENTS: But the death was not the natural probable consequence. In your scenario you gave -- obviously--
GRACE: So you leave a bunch of children with an 8-year-old with a 2- year-old and no parental supervision, and you don`t expect something tragic could occur? Fall down the steps, wander out into traffic, chew an
electrical cord, drink Draino, for Pete`s sakes, anything could happen.
CLEMENTS: And that would be a misdemeanor, which is misdemeanor manslaughter, which is involuntary manslaughter at worst case scenario.
Secondly, who could ever anticipate that an 8-year-old would beat someone to death?
GRACE: That`s civil law.
CLEMENTS: No, that is criminal law. And that`s the facts of this case. Involuntary manslaughter, that`s a crime last time I checked. And
that`s criminal law. I`m saying applying criminal law to these facts, the worst you can get is involuntary manslaughter.
GRACE: I`m saying felony murder, and this is my theory, Kisha Hebbon, my theory is the mother commits a felony and that`s felony child neglect or
felony child abuse, and during the commissioner of that felony, a death occurs.
HEBBON: I disagree with you as well. We can`t say this mother committed a felony. She made a stupid mistake leaving her 1-year-old old
with an 8-year-old child.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Put her up. Kisha Hebbon, I know that you went to a certified law school.
HEBBON: Absolutely.
GRACE: I know you`re practicing law, but stupid is not a defense, never has been. Oh, I`m just stupid. No.
HEBBON: No one is saying it`s a defense, but we can`t classify this as a felony. She was neglectful, but we don`t know -- if anything, this
may be endangering the welfare of a child.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: -- any parent that neglects their child, you could say that was stupid. Well, that`s not a defense, Ashley. Of course it`s stupid.
But that`s not a defense under the law.
WILCOTT: Completely agree. And it`s child abuse and neglect, Nancy, it falls within those definitions. You cannot leave an 8-year-old at home
supervising these children of the ages that they were. You can`t do it. It does fall within definition of child abuse and neglect, and a child died
as a result. The other thing I would argue is, look, this is an 8-year-old who viciously attacked a 1-year-old. Where did he learn that? What is he
seeing? What`s happened to him to think it`s okay to beat a child because they`re crying?
GRACE: You know, that leads me to my next can of worms, thank you, Ashley Wilcott. To Rita Cosby and Dave Mack. Also joining me, Matt
Zarrell. Dave Mack, now the 8-year-old boy is charged with murder.
MACK: Absolutely. And the thing is, Nancy, that even if he were convicted in juvenile court, which is the case because he`s only 8 years
old, they would probably only hold him for a year, and then they would revisit it. So this child at 8 years old is going to be reviewed every
year to determine whether or not he`s actually a threat or not. The reality goes back to what you said about the mother. She`s the one that
should face murder charges, not an 8-year-old who must have learned how to beat by what he saw.
GRACE: To Dr. Tiffany Sanders, psychologist, joining me out of Chicago. You know, Wilcott brings up a good point. Where does an 8-year-
old learn to beat a baby dead? How does that happen?
SANDERS: It`s unthinkable, Nancy. And the first thing I thought when I saw this case, I was like oh, my gosh, has he witnessed this before by
the mother or a loved one in the home that in order to punish or silence someone, you have to aggressively beat them. But I also wonder does this
8-year-old have an underlying mental health disorder. Has he struggled with managing frustration, conflict, anger, and does he have something like
sensory processing disorder where your senses can be so overwhelmed by all the sound, all the noise, and that causes you to lash out.
GRACE: Well, obviously he`s been through a lot. Unleash the lawyers. Kisha Hebbon, Kirby Clements and also with me Ashley Wilcott.
Kirby, I don`t want to shock you, but I don`t think that holding the boy responsible to the tune of murder charges is appropriate, because I
recall -- and you may have actually been prosecuting with me at the time of this. A triple homicide I prosecuted and four or five years later, one of
those juvenile defendants came as a witness on another case, an armed robbery. He was part of the armed robbery. He was just pacing back and
forth in front of the courtroom like a tiger. That`s what juvenile jail had done to him in five years. All right?
[20:40:00]
So I know the boy did something horrendous, but the boy is put in an adult position with a crying baby. I just don`t -- it doesn`t feel right
to put the boy, an 8-year-old, behind bars for murder until he is 19, Kirby.
CLEMENTS: You`re absolutely right, and I will tell you this. Legally whether an 8-year-old can even form the requisite degree of intent or have
that requisite, necessary mental development to even process what would happen would cut against him being charged with murder in this situation.
GRACE: So, Matt, there`s no way that the boy can face life without parole or life with parole. He cannot be tried until he`s 14 as an adult,
correct?
ZARRELL: Correct. Minimum age is 14 to be tried as an adult.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sad part is you had an adult mother here who had the audacity to leave her 1-year-old in the custody of several other
children at the house, and none of those kids were over the age of 8. Well, we did have some information that the 8-year-old got extremely
agitated because the 1-year-old refused to stop crying. And so I guess the 8-year-old took it upon himself and began to commit violent acts against
the 1-year-old. The 1-year-old definitely could not defend herself. Because if it did, we probably would have arrived earlier that morning and
maybe, maybe with the help of medical assistance, maybe something could have been prevented. I`m sure they`re at the drawing board and looking at
what is the proper process or, you know, what are the next steps for an individual, a suspect or a defendant at this age.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:46:30]
GRACE: Live, Tacoma, caught on camera. The stunning moment, a 78- year-old grandma stumbles onto three armed burglars in her own home. We have the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As daytime burglaries often start, one guy rang the doorbell several times. Someone then broke in downstairs. Security
cameras in the home on North Juniper Street in Tacoma captured this guy in a striped sweater and fedora heading outside to signal others. Crowbar in
hand, he grabs her purse and heads toward the bedroom, where Messina was sleeping. As an accomplice comes in, gloves in hand. A third person runs
in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The door -- and I started down here and I saw them.
Get the hell out of here!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Okay. That`s surveillance video from nest.com. These guys are on the loose. I want to see this in full if you can pull that for me,
Liz. I want to see the whole thing from the get-go. Is this the beginning? Take it in full if you don`t mind. Here we go. Ding dong.
One came up from the inside or did he -- had he earlier come in from the outside? I`ll ask Charlie that. Come on out here, you`ve got to know this
guy right here. You`ve got to know this guy in that get-up with that hat and that shirt and that peculiar gait? Not this one, the one in the
striped shirt. Okay, here he is, got the hoodie up under his nose. Is that a fingerprint? No, he`s got on gloves. I`m looking for fingerprints.
They have all got on gloves for Pete`s sake. Uh-oh, here she comes. Don`t mess with granny. They`re going to get an earful, here you go. Do you not
see his face out there? Look, who is this guy? Oh, okay. Bungling burglars.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get the hell out of here!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Those are her pajamas, by the way. Okay. Charlie Land, news director, KLAY, I want to catch these people, true. The grandma is not
hurt. She is at home, Charlie. You see what they`re doing. They come, they ring the bell, ring the bell. They must have seen the husband, who is
a lawyer, by the way, leave. They think nobody is home. They`re just waiting. Did you see them all put on their gloves? This ain`t their first
time at the rodeo, Charlie.
CHARLIE LAND, KLAY: Oh, you bet. We spent all this money on home security systems and all they needed was a 78-year-old grandmother to yell
get the hell out of here to stop the crime. But it could have been a lot worse. A couple of years ago, we had the Craigslist home invasion murder,
where the bad guys gained access because they were invited over to look at a ring that was posted on Craigslist, and they ended up beating a family
and killing the father in front of his family.
GRACE: I`ve got to find these guys, Charlie Land.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Stacy Newman, I`ve got to find these guys. Do we have any idea who they are?
NEWMAN: We don`t. All we know is that they are believed to be in their 20s, but this is really crystal clear video, home security video, so
police should be able to I.D. these men. As we said earlier, this is not the first time they have done this.
GRACE: Oh, no, it`s not. Okay, I`m being joined right now from Tacoma by Megan Bostick. This is the daughter of the grandma who chases
these guys away. Okay, Megan, thank you so much for being with us.
MEGAN BOSTICK, DAUGHTER: Thank you for having me.
GRACE: When did you find out that three armed guys broke into your mom`s, your parents home?
[20:50:00]
BOSTICK: It was probably about half an hour after the fact. My mother, she phoned my father to see if he was at work. He called me
because I live up the street just a minute away. I got out of bed really quickly. I was still in bed because I had slept really bad the night
before. Threw something on and ran down there because I was worried about her. I knew she was okay, because she called my dad, but I wanted to check
on how --
GRACE: Look at this. Look at them. I`m showing it right now, Megan. And they grab your mom`s pocketbook and a lot of other stuff, but I can
tell this is not their first time going this. They had it down. This is Golda Messina (ph), a grandmother of five. Walks in on burglars. So,
Megan, any idea who these guys are?
BOSTICK: I have no clue. I don`t recognize any of them. We didn`t see -- nobody saw a car. We just know that they`re three young guys and
they may have not done it before, but they certainly do not look like professionals to me. They look a little bit like bumbling idiots.
GRACE: Didn`t they go into your mom`s bedroom?
BOSTICK: Pardon?
GRACE: Did they go into your mother`s bedroom?
BOSTICK: I think they did. They headed right to the bedroom. The guy had a crowbar. Watching the video is just awful, even though we knew
it turned out okay. I think they might have even saw her in there and that`s when they ran back down the hallway, and one of the guys ran out the
door.
GRACE: Tell me how they got in the front door. Was the front door locked?
BOSTICK: The front door was locked. What they did was after he rang the bell, he went around the back of the house and broke in a glass door.
And then --
GRACE: Tip line, everyone --
BOSTICK: (inaudible) and let the other two in.
GRACE: I saw. I was wondering when I saw them come up from the bottom if he had come in another way. Tip line, 253-591-5968. Let`s get
these guys.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I opened the door and I started down here and I saw them. All I knew was they were in my house, and they needed to get
out. Period. I`m a mom. It`s like, you know, automatic, I`m the boss. I did it. I would do it again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:57:00]
GRACE: Now that`s revenge. A Texas wife repays her alleged cheating husband, spray painting his pickup, calling him out. Stack this jury with
women and good luck, Judge.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One woman who claims her husband cheated on her wants the world to know. A white pickup truck, presumably belonging to the
husband, is now adorned with phrases like "i cheated on my wife" and "my side chick is pregnant, please don`t tell my wife and son."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I like that. My side chick is pregnant, please don`t tell my wife and son. Justin, what happened, and is this woman actually being
prosecuted? It will be a cold day in h-e-l-l that she gets convicted. First of all. So what happened?
FREIMAN: Well, Nancy, apparently her husband cheated on her, and she wants the world to know it and she took it out an his pickup truck, and now
people know, but so far, we have not found any charges.
GRACE: You know, why do you sound surprised about that? Kesha Hebbon, Kirby Clements, there`s not going to be any charges, Kirby
Clements. If I were defending her I`d stack the jury full of women, all 12 and 2 female alternates, and sit down and rest my case.
CLEMENTS: You know you`d be a scary defense lawyer, Nancy.
GRACE: Thank you.
CLEMENTS: That`s exactly what I would do as a matter of fact. She actually should be charged, still, that`s --
GRACE: What? Do you actually not believe that he cheated? What about it, Hebbon? You know, you know.
HEBBON: It doesn`t matter.
GRACE: If she went to these lengths, something`s sideways.
HEBBON: But two wrongs don`t make it right.
GRACE: Okay. They`re telling me script next, script next. I`ve got something important to say. On Veterans Day, we honor our country`s
heroes, who put their lives in harm`s way. Many making the ultimate sacrifice. It is the veteran, not the preacher, who`s given us freedom of
religion. The veteran, not the reporter, who gives us freedom of the press. The veteran, not the poet, who gives us freedom of speech. It is
the veteran, not the campus organizer, who gives us freedom to assemble. It is a veteran, not the lawyer, who protects our right to a fair trial.
The veteran, not the politician, who gives us the right to vote. It is the veteran who salutes the flag, serves under the flag, is buried by the flag
so the protester can burn the flag.
Thank you to our veterans. Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow
night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
