Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Pregnant Wife Murdered by Home Invaders/Handcuffed Woman Leads Police on Car Chase;
Aired November 12, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news now, live Indianapolis suburbs. A pastor`s gorgeous young 12-weeks-pregnant wife, just 28 years old, shot in
the head in her own home while protecting her 1-year-old son from a deadly home invader.
Bombshell right now. The suspect still on the loose.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Amanda Blackburn. The young northwest Indy mother, expecting another child. Shot Amanda during a break-in at their Sunnyfield
Court home, sent shock waves through their neighborhood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I couldn`t sleep last night, you know, just because of, you know, the incident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Aliquippa. It all starts at a local Kohl`s department store, a woman suspected of swiping a pair of plastic earrings. It all
ends with that woman, Roxanne Rimer, being handcuffed by police, somehow managing to get control of the squad car, ramming it into her family`s car
and leading police on a high-speed chase while handcuffed. We have the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That suspect, Roxanne Rimer, ramming her family`s car with the police cruiser she`s just stolen, hits dangerous speeds within
seconds to get out of a shoplifting charge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Able to steal a cop car and take police on a high- speed case with her hands cuffed behind her back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And Kansas City suburbs. Caught on video, a young Lee Summit (ph) woman performing a routine task, vacuuming her car out at the local self
carwash, when she`s attacked by two male suspects seen on video getting into her vehicle as she continues vacuum the front seat, unaware, the car
found shortly after with Tanya Chamberlain`s (ph) body stabbed around the neck and face. Are cops honing in on two suspects, two 8th-grade boys?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Minutes after these images were taken of the two suspects, Chamberlain was vacuuming out her car. At 1:52, the two suspects
approach her. At 1:57, Chamberlain gets in the driver`s seat. The two suspects also get in the car. At 1:59 the recording stops when the camera
reboots. The vehicle is gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live. Did a Barbie doll look-alike mom poison her 9-year-old son for over a year so she could get attention?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shocking revelation! A mom is accused of intentionally poisoning her 9-year-old boy with prescription meds. According to police,
Rachel Consuelo (ph) was giving her son a toxic mix of prescription medications as she took him in and out of two different hospitals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, live to Indianapolis suburbs. A pastor`s gorgeous young 12-weeks-pregnant wife, just 28 years old, shot in the head in her own home
while protecting her 1-year-old son from a deadly home invader. Tonight, the suspect still on the loose.
We`re going straight there. Pat Lalama joining us, managing editor, Crime Watch Daily. Pat Lalama -- I want to see what you can show me, Liz, photos
of the crime scene and photos of the young mom.
For all of you watching right now, the perpetrator still on the loose. Does any of this ring a bell? Do you know anything that could help crack
this case?
What happened, Pat Lalama?
PAT LALAMA, CRIME WATCH DAILY: The only thing we know at this point is that there was a similar incident a few hours earlier in that neighborhood.
We don`t know if anyone was injured in that particular case.
Her husband is at the gym. She`s trying to protect her child. This is a wonderful couple in the community. They are partners -- this couple
partners in ministry, partners in marriage. People love them. They had just come back from their own personal romantic retreat to renew their
devotion to each other.
Cops have to figure out what`s going on. Now, what we do know, what I find interesting, is they`ve been in the house looking for evidence, and they
used a power saw to look for evidence in the house.
GRACE: I want to go to Candace Trunzo, senior news editor, DailyMail.com. Candace, what you do in a situation like this is you start at the
beginning, and that`s what I want to do right now.
For those of you just joining us, a pastor`s young pregnant wife has been shot dead. She was shot in the head execution-style. And she was trying
to protect her 1-year-old child, her son, probably.
There you see her at a seminar that she was helping at with her husband. It`s a video from Resonate Church. That`s the church where he is a poster.
And she and her husband were discussing their marriage and their relationship. It`s kind of a workshop on marriages and relationships.
[20:05:14]Now, she has been found dead in the home, and tonight, we want justice. Who? Who would invade this suburban home? Who would come in --
if they wanted to steal -- we don`t have any evidence yet that anything was stolen. Who would come into this home to kill the mother of a 1-year-old
little boy, 12 weeks pregnant?
Candace Trunzo, let`s start at the beginning. I want to start with what time of the day is it?
CANDACE TRUNZO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): It`s about 8:30 in the morning, and Amanda...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa-whoa! Did you say 8 -- what in the morning?
TRUNZO: 8:30 in the morning.
GRACE: 8:30 AM in the morning? Candace, where did you say the husband was?
TRUNZO: The husband was at the gym.
GRACE: OK.
TRUNZO: And Amanda Blackburn was at home with her 1-year-old son. And they were doing -- puttering around, and all of a sudden, someone entered
the house. And the police say it was a robbery, attempted robbery, but we don`t know. We don`t know if anything was taken.
GRACE: OK, you said...
TRUNZO: We don`t know what happened.
GRACE: ... something very important. Candace, did you say an attempted robbery? Attempted?
TRUNZO: Attempted because we don`t know...
GRACE: OK, that`s interesting...
TRUNZO: ... if anything was actually taken.
GRACE: ... Candace, because if police are calling it an attempted robbery, that means it was not a robbery. OK, that means nothing was taken.
Wow. This is some beautiful home. Now, of course, in every homicide investigation, the first place you look is at the husband, the boyfriend,
the ex. The pastor of Resonate Church was at the gym. When he came home from the gym, he found his wife dead. That`s what police are telling us
tonight.
Another thing I want to know, Pat Lalama -- do we know whether there was just one gunshot fired or were multiple gunshots fired and one happened to
hit her in the head? Were there more than one gunshot or no?
LALAMA: My understanding is that there was one gunshot to the head. Today, Thursday, she was taken off life support. Her organs have been
donated. It is absolutely unbelievable. The search for evidence so critical right now in this case.
And here`s something interesting, Nancy. A lot of people in that neighborhood have under surveillance footage, home security systems, and
police are really hoping that they can glean something from those surveillance videocameras in the neighborhood.
GRACE: You know, I want to go back, again -- we`re taking it block by block. This is the very, very early stages of this investigation.
For those of you just joining us, this young lady, this pastor`s wife, has just been taken off life support and she has just passed away. She was 12
weeks pregnant at the time she was shot. And she had a 1-year-old little boy in the home with her.
Now, isn`t it true, Candace Trunzo, that in that same neighborhood -- Pat Lalama alluded to this earlier -- that a few days before -- or was it that
morning, a few hours before, that another home had been burgled?
You`re seeing footage from Pastor Davey Blackburn`s YouTube page.
Go ahead, please.
TRUNZO: Yes. About three hours before, there was a home in the neighborhood that was burglarized. And there had been some recent
burglaries, but police were loath to really connect them at this point.
GRACE: They -- what do you mean, they were loath to connect...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Can they connect them?
TRUNZO: They say right now that here isn`t any connection between what may have happened, reportedly happened three hours before, a home in the
neighborhood burglarized and someone coming in the house and actually...
GRACE: Well, wa-wa-wait!
TRUNZO: ... shooting a victim.
GRACE: You know, hold on. Let me go to CNN law enforcement analyst Cedric Alexander. Also with me is Ryan McConnell. He is a neighbor of the victim
and the neighborhood watch captain.
Now, as I always say -- to both of you gentleman, thank you for being with us -- it`s very rare you get a coincidence in criminal law, OK? So the
fact that there was a break-in in the neighborhood just three hours before this -- it`s going to be highly doubtful that`s a coincidence. On the
other hand, was that breakup (sic) set up to throw doubt on this event? Was anything really taken?
But I find it very difficult to believe -- Ryan McConnell is with us there in the neighborhood -- that there`s been a series of burglaries in order to
set up a murder. I don`t believe that. I`m, very interested, Ryan, in that previous break-in that happened just a couple of hours before this.
What do we know about that, Ryan?
RYAN MCCONNELL, NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH CAPTAIN (via telephone): From what we know right now is, basically, that the facts are that the owner of the
residence wasn`t home at the time. And as far as the next robbery, if they are, in fact, connected, they would say that that was just a crime of
opportunity and not something that was necessarily planned out.
[20:10:21]GRACE: Interesting. Now, has the neighborhood been the victim of a series of burglaries? Is that true?
MCCONNELL: No, there had been some burglaries in some homes in a neighboring neighborhood recently.
GRACE: Oh.
MCCONNELL: And those individuals happened to get caught within our neighborhood about three weeks earlier. But none of those burglaries
actually occurred within our actual (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: So those burglaries were in another neighborhood. And those perpetrators have been caught. OK, they`re out. They`re not part of this
schematic. So let`s look at this schematic. There`s a burglary a few hours before this. How far away, Ryan McConnell, was that burglary from
Amanda`s home?
MCCONNELL: There are two houses between the house that was initially broken into and the Blackburn couple.
GRACE: Ryan, do you know whether in that other burglary, the people, the residents had been away for a period of days, or had they just gone to work
that morning?
MCCONNELL: The resident there is somebody who I think works away from home often, and she wasn`t home at the time, and so at that time, she wasn`t in
her house. And I think that it`s kind of known she`s not home frequently.
GRACE: So you know, now, that`s interesting that you said that, Ryan, that it`s common knowledge she`s not at home very much, very interesting.
MCCONNELL: (INAUDIBLE) common knowledge...
GRACE: Ah.
MCCONNELL: ... but you know, amongst the neighborhood, I think...
GRACE: amongst the neighborhood...
MCCONNELL: ... people have said that they didn`t know her as well as some of the other neighbors.
GRACE: Gotcha. You`re seeing video from Resonate Church, and you`re seeing Amanda Blackburn seated on the right. There she is. She`s
absolutely beautiful, 12 months (sic) pregnant at the time of her death.
Another question for Ryan McConnell. Ryan, do most of the houses in the neighborhood have security systems? Do people leave their homes unlocked?
Do you know if the preacher and his wife had a home alarm system?
MCCONNELL: I am not aware if they have an alarm system or not, but I do know that about 90 percent of the homes in the neighborhood do have
security systems with signs posted out front. From what I can recall that I saw, that they had one of said (ph) signs in front of their house.
GRACE: Yes, I see a sign. Let`s see a front shot of their home, Liz, please. I see a sign, but I can`t make out what the sign says. There is a
little sign, I believe that bubble`s on top of it, and it says -- I think it says alarm system. I think it does. I think you are absolutely right.
To Cedric Alexander, you know, interesting that the alarm didn`t go off. But it could be very -- an opportunistic crime, Cedric, because if the
husband, the pastor, has just pulled out -- and you see by the front of the house, they`ve got a garage that closes in the front. She could also be
seen refinishing furniture and doing projects in that garage.
But if she had that door closed and the husband leaves, if somebody had been burgling the home just down the street and saw that, that could have
been high incentive for them to go hit that house, as well, if they see his car leave.
CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, that certainly could have been one scenario, Nancy. I think what`s going to be interesting to
learn about this case as they do their investigation is going back to how many other burglaries have occurred in that neighborhood, adjacent
neighborhoods, but not just along with those that they may know about. There still may be some burglaries that have occurred in that neighborhood
where people may be out of town, hadn`t gotten home, don`t know that their home has been burglarized.
GRACE: Right.
ALEXANDER: So this could have been a coincidence or this could have been planfully (ph) thought out. But it appears, just on the surface -- and we
don`t know this -- that this may have come to a surprise to the victim that was in the home. There could have been a struggle.
There`s some information that we don`t know that I`m quite sure that the police department will want to hold onto to maintain the integrity of their
investigation. So there are a variety of a number of things that could have occurred.
GRACE: Right. You know, Justin Freiman, you know what`s interesting? I believe it was "New England Journal of Medicine" published a study a couple
of years ago that the number one cause of death for women during their pregnancy is homicide.
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): That`s right, Nancy. It accounts for about 20 percent of deaths among that group. It`s very
high. Second was heart disease.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:19:20]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The young northwest Indy mother, expecting another child. Shot Amanda during a break-in at their Sunnyfield Court
home, sent shock waves through their neighborhood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I couldn`t sleep last night, you know, just because of, you know, the incident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A young woman just 12 weeks pregnant has been shot dead in her own suburban home. Her husband, the pastor of the newly formed Resonate
Church, had just left, we understand, to go to the gym. He comes back to find his wife dead, his 1-year-old son still in the home unharmed.
[20:20:00]Who would kill Amanda Blackburn? Was it a robbery gone wrong? We are taking your calls. This is a shot of Amanda right there. I want to
give you the tip line. There is a reward -- 317-262-8477. 317-262-TIPS.
I want you to take a look at video we found of Amanda and her husband at a seminar. Let`s take a look, please. This is video from Pastor Davey
Blackburn`s YouTube page.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANDA BLACKBURN, VICTIM: ... your wife is by doing what Jesus calls you to do, running really hard after him and pursuing him. And he`s watching
you majorly (ph). And so she`s going to follow (INAUDIBLE) and if you`re being lazy, she`s going to tend to be on the lazier side. So I think it`s
important to remember that.
PASTOR DAVEY BLACKBURN, HUSBAND: Yes, so much of leadership in general in any context is your followers catch things more than they receive things
being taught, right? You`ve heard the phrase it`s caught, not taught -- caught, not taught. And so even, like, leading an organization, if you`re
a business person and you lead an organization, the decision falls down to you.
A. BLACKBURN: The better decisions you make about your -- with your finances or with your time, with your energy, the more she`s going to
respect you, admire you and want to follow you, want to submit to you.
So it`s, like, the best example I can give is when we were newlyweds, Davey started getting up early in the morning to do his devotions. And I was,
like, That`s great, you know? Good for him. Like, But I`m not a morning person. I don`t need to do that.
And then the longer he did that -- it went by for a couple of weeks, and I was, like, Man, I feel really guilty staying in my bed, you know, like, and
kind of making Jesus my last priority because I did my devotions at the end of the day, when I was tired and didn`t have any energy left. And so
because he was doing that, though, because he was getting up early, I was, like, You know what? I think I`m going to try that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is video from Pastor Davey Blackburn`s YouTube page. Davey Blackburn is Amanda`s husband and the pastor and founder of Resonate
Church, where he was a senior pastor -- is the senior pastor. He comes home from working out at the gym to find his wife shot dead. There they
are again at one of the seminars that they -- they help with about marriage.
Unleash the lawyers, Hugo Rodriguez, defense attorney, former fed with the FBI out of Miami, Robert Schalk out of New York. Also with me,
psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall.
First to you, Rodriguez. Look, every time a spouse is killed, the surviving spouse needs to dig in because they are going to be investigated.
It`s just that simple, whether it`s the man or the woman that has survived, because that is the way detectives work. That`s the way investigations
work. And that`s the way homicide works. It usually is somebody close to you or somebody that you know.
Now, that doesn`t mean it`s your spouse. It could be the delivery boy. It could be the grocer. It could be the plumber, the fix-it man, the yard
guy. And you go out from there. And that is how investigations work.
So this pastor is going to be investigated, is he not?
HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No doubt about it. He`ll be the primary focus or target at this time.
GRACE: At this time. And once he has been cleared, they will move on. Robert Schalk, I imagine that, just as for starters, they`re going to go to
his gym to find out what time he got there, find out if there`s surveillance video, find out if there`s a passcode, what time did he log
in, what time did he log out? How far is the drive from his place to his gym? What time did he leave that morning? And who, if anyone, can place
her alive, other than him, that morning?
That`s where they`re going to start. Do you have another idea, Robert?
ROBERT SCHALK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, again, I totally agree with you, Nancy, with regards to how they`re going to work backwards. They`re going
to point to him. They`re going to look for evidence that can`t lie to them, log-ins at the gym, surveillance cameras, potentially traffic
cameras.
But the one thing that keeps creeping up in the back of my head with regards to this case is that, you know, burglary two houses down, very
close in time in this neighborhood, a lot of burglaries in the area. You tend to think that`s where this is going to go.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:28:11]GRACE: Live, Aliquippa. It all starts at a local Kohl`s department store, a woman suspected of swiping a pair of plastic earrings
and ends with that same woman, Roxanne Rimer, handcuffed by police and then somehow managing to get control of the squad car, ramming it into her
family`s car, and then leading police on an explosive high-speed chase while she`s handcuffed. We have the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: High-speed ride is captured by dashcam.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The speeds reach 100 miles per hour down two-lane roads, weaving in and out of traffic in handcuffs that are cinched behind
her back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has the ability to beep the horn, to get cars out of her way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Solomon Jones, WURD. Solomon, I`m still not understanding how this woman got up there to drive off in a squad car while
she`s handcuffed in the back seat. How did that happen?
SOLOMON JONES, WURD (via telephone): Yes, the police chief said that most people would not have been able to do that. She was thin. She was
obviously flexible. There was an unlatched part of this partition in between the front and back seat, and she was able to squeeze through it and
then position herself in front of the wheel, turn her back to the steering wheel and control the vehicle that way. Unbelievable.
GRACE: So you`re telling me she got through that little window between the front and back seat?
JONES: She was able to get through that little window in between that front and back seat. The police chief said, you know, it`s an unbelievable
thing that she was able do that. Most people would not have been able do that. But somehow, she was. She was determined.
GRACE: Well, another thing -- and I want to rephrase what the chief said. True, I agree with him, most people would not be able to do that.
[20:30:02] But most people wouldn`t have thought of doing that when you`re already busted for shoplifting to then, gee, what should I do now? Call my
lawyer? No, take the Fifth. No, I will sneak into the front seat, handcuffed, and drive off with the police car.
Yes, most people wouldn`t think that was the smartest move to take next.
Brad Lamm, her defense is saying that she has an addiction.
Brad Lamm with us, addiction specialist and founder of Breathe Life Healing Centers. What about it, Brad?
BRAD LAMM, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: Well, you know me, Nancy. We`re crafty people. Addicted folks, you know, look, it`s been a long time since I have
done something as crazy as that. But my hope is she`s able to use her talents in the future for -- better than driving a stolen car.
GRACE: You know what?
LAMM: I think every addict deserves recovery but we are crafty.
GRACE: I`m going to -- you know, we`re crafty is not really going to be a defense that she could use in court. I`m going to give you a moment to
percolate with that, Brad Lamm.
Let`s take this from the top. Let`s see exactly what happened. Liz, if you could start it over.
OK. There you see her taking off. There you go.
So, Stacey Newman, she recently is in court. And what is her defense?
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, her defense is that she was drunk and this all started, Nancy, with her stealing $16 worth of earrings
at Kohl`s. She jumped into her grandfather`s car. That`s the car that she rams with the grandfather behind the wheel to get away and on top of us not
knowing how she was able to get through that partition and drive the car, she was doing speeds of 100 miles an hour, Nancy, for at least 10 miles.
GRACE: Well, she got a sweetheart deal. She could be out in as little as two years with good behavior.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:36:59] GRACE: To Kansas City suburbs, caught on video. A young Lee`s Summit woman performing a routine task, vacuuming her car out at a local
self car wash. It is there that she is attacked by two male suspects. They`re seen on video. Seemingly getting into her vehicle as she continues
to vacuum the front seat unaware.
Now the car is found shortly after this with Tanya Chamberlain`s body. She has been stabbed around the neck and face.
Are cops at this hour honing in on two suspects? Two 8th grade boys?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Tanya Chamberlain spent some of her final moments vacuuming her car. Video surveillance shows two strangers, teenagers,
getting into her car. Because of Daylight Saving Time the security recording briefly stopped. When it restarted, they were all gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, let`s pull up the video that we have obtained. Could you take it in full, please? I want to see this as best as I can. There you
see the two perps coming in. We think they`re the perps, anyway. These guys are seen coming in separate from the woman.
Let`s get any other video under surveillance that we have. Those two perps are coming in at the same time. Tanya Chamberlain is seen vacuuming her
car.
Pat Lalama, managing editor, Crime Watch Daily. With us, Sarah Scott, reporter, KMBZ, joining us there in Kansas City.
Sarah, let`s take it from the beginning. What do we know about what happened at the car wash? What`s the name of the car wash to start with?
SARAH SCOTT, KMBZ REPORTER: Nancy, that`s a good question. I don`t have it right at this moment. This is a car wash in Lee`s Summit, Missouri,
which is a rather affluent neighborhood of Kansas City, and this car wash - - the car drives away. An officer sees the car and sees it driving erratically. Assumed it`s a drunk driver because --
GRACE: Hold on, hold on just a moment. I`m trying to take it methodically. So let`s start, Pat Lalama, joining me along with Sarah
Scott.
Pat Lalama, Crime Watch Daily. The woman is in there vacuuming her car. OK.
PAT LALAMA, CRIME WATCH DAILY: Yes.
GRACE: At the time these two come in. What happens next?
LALAMA: OK. That`s all caught on surveillance tape. The two come into the store. Then after that you see them getting into her car. But guess
what, because of Daylight Savings the camera reboots and when it kicks back up again the car is gone. Imagine what that video would have told us had
it not been for Daylight Savings. Then 20 minutes later --
GRACE: OK. Let me understand what you`re just saying. Hold on. Hold on.
LALAMA: OK. Sure.
GRACE: Cedric Alexander, could this possibly be true?
[20:40:01] Cedric Alexander, CNN law enforcement analyst. Because they`re catching all this on video and then Daylight Savings Time kicks in, and
they reboot at exactly the moment her car drives away? And then when it reboots the car is gone? Her vehicle is gone? Is that how these things
work? The video cameras?
CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, it could have been the case particularly that happened on that particular time on that night
of the change. However, they still may be able go back and retrieve that information with the technology that`s in place. So we`ll wait and see.
GRACE: Interesting. They may be able to still get that. Interesting.
ALEXANDER: They still -- they still may be able to get it. We don`t know where their own investigation on that regard. But even if they don`t --
GRACE: OK. So they might be able to get it.
ALEXANDER: Right.
GRACE: Yes. You know, I want to take it from that point.
Pat Lalama, we see them coming in, at the same time she`s vacuuming.
ALEXANDER: Right.
GRACE: And then what`s the next thing that we know happens? The video camera turns back on. Her car is gone. All right. Then what?
ALEXANDER: Yes. Then what happens, about 20 minutes from that time, an officer sees some guys in a car, thinks that the driver is intoxicated.
Stops that car. That car leads cops to a parking lot where the two suspects flee.
GRACE: You know, I want to go to Dr. Bradley J. Marcus, chief medical examiner in Richland County, joining us right now. The victim in this
case, Tanya Chamberlain, this young woman reportedly stabbed dead with a Boy Scout knife.
Dr. Marcus, in your experience, how deep would those cuts have to be to kill her? We know that she, her body, is sitting on the passenger`s seat
when the car is pulled over driving erratically. The driver`s jump out and take off on food. She is still -- they`re driving around with her dead
body in the passenger`s seat, Dr. Marcus.
DR. BRADLEY J. MARCUS, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, RICHLAND COUNTY: Well, it all depends. It depends where she`s struck with the knife. You know. If
it`s in the neck the knife doesn`t have to be that big. You`re talking probably less than an inch. You can hit one of those main arteries or
veins in the neck. And she can then bleed out right there.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: So, you know it could --
MARCUS: So, you know, it depends on the location of where she was stabbed.
GRACE: So the murder could have been affected with something as simple as a Boy Scout knife, and one of these two eighth graders is, in fact, a Boy
Scout.
You know, question, Sarah Scott, you were saying that the cops saw the vehicle driving erratically. When the cops pull over, the car driving,
weaving in and out. Then what happens?
SCOTT: The car does not comply. It takes off. So the officer follows and goes to that apartment complex where actually the driver tries to cross a
lawn and gets stuck in the mud. And that is the point where the suspects ran off.
GRACE: You know, I want to see that shot you were just showing of the car wash. That is the location where all of this happened.
Dr. Bethany Marshall, the drivers take off running. Then they chase them. They go back to the car without catching them. And they process the car.
After that they look at this video and they go to the homes and the lockers of these two eighth graders.
And isn`t it true, Michael Christian, they find clothing there that matches this clothing, correct?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: The clothing that matches what we see in this security video.
GRACE: Wow.
OK, Dr. Marshall, what happened here? Was that a crime of opportunity? I mean, you don`t go into a car wash thinking, wow, I`m going to murder
somebody and steal their car?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": I think these two boys did want to murder somebody. And so I really wonder what`s going
on in their homes because the woman they murdered would be about these boys` mother`s age. They stabbed her in the face and in the neck.
Nancy, the brutality is horrific. It seems to me like hatefulness, hatred towards women. Their mother`s age, thrill-kill. I wouldn`t be surprised
if you have like one sociopath recruiting a younger, more vulnerable boy, acting in concert, kind of like we saw with the D.C. sniper.
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: You often have one very strong --
GRACE: Go ahead, Bethany.
MARSHALL: See, so often you have really one strong sociopathic male kind of brain washing a younger one. They fantasize about the thrill kill for a
period of weeks or months and they finally get up the courage to do this.
This wasn`t about stealing a car, Nancy. They weren`t old enough to even have driver`s license. This was misogyny, this was hatred towards women.
This was love of killing and brutality.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Hugo Rodriguez and Robert Schalk.
OK, we understand, Hugo, that the two are blaming each other right now. Now they tried to gather, Hugo, those statements either have to be redacted
where you take out each other`s names or don`t bring the statement in.
[20:45:02] I vote for trying them together and redacting the statement because they`re blaming each other, Hugo. What are you going to do at
trial?
HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, assuming both go to trial. But what you`re going to more than likely have is one flipping against the
other to get a very good deal. They`re both juveniles. One could be charged as a juvenile, whose exposure would only be to age 21 of
incarceration. But if they`re both pointing the fingers, one at the other, somewhere along the line --
GRACE: Keep on dreaming, my man.
RODRIGUEZ: They`re going to make --
GRACE: Schalk, they`re going to be treated as adults.
RODRIGUEZ: They`re going to make an agreement.
GRACE: Yes, and you know what, the state, Schalk --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: The state doesn`t need an agreement with that video and those bloody clothes. Who needs an agreement? Why make a deal with the devil if
you don`t need to make a deal? They got them --
RODRIGUEZ: You don`t have to.
ROBERT SCHALK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But why make a deal if there is inconsistent statements if they`re going to change their testimony in their
deal. You`re giving their defense attorney fodder for cross examination which could lead to the equal of the other.
RODRIGUEZ: First of all, I`m not suggesting -- I wouldn`t represent them that way. But nine times out of 10, in situations very similar to this,
that`s exactly what happens. That`s all I`m saying.
GRACE: I would definitely put them in the same pot at trial. And let them stew. Police released this video.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:50:30] GRACE: Did a Barbie doll look alike mom poison her 9-year-old son for over a year so she, the mother, could get attention?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A 9-year-old boy is taken to the hospital multiple times of the course of just one year. And now investigators think they
know why.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Colin Jeffrey, joining us, KTRS.
Colin, it`s really hard to believe that for over a year this mother repeatedly poisons her son so she could get attention to herself. Why
would we think that?
COLIN JEFFREY, REPORTER, KTRS: Well, that`s what police are saying at this point because starting in March of last year actually, Rachel Cansela,
police say was taking her 9-year-old son, Patrick, to the hospital and getting medication. What the doctors in St. Louis were unaware that at the
same time she was taking her son to a hospital in Kansas City and getting medication there.
Now in January of this year, police were alerted to this, and they removed the boy from her home and doctors said it appeared that he was suffering
from an overdose of these drugs that her unbeknownst to the doctors prosecutors belief that --
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, so wait, Colin, let me understand this. She`s actually taking the boy to two separate hospitals that are about 200 miles apart and
neither hospital knows they`re not the only ones treating the 9-year-old boy.
Justin Freiman, what -- are you telling me doctors found such high levels of medicine in his system, they -- they`re the ones that say this is
poisoning?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Nancy. According to police, it was the doctors, doctors in one of these hospitals, notices the
high levels of prescription pills and says this isn`t right. They shouldn`t be in his system and they notified investigators and the
investigation began right there.
GRACE: Dr. Bethany Marshall, it`s called Munchausen by proxy. It`s extremely rare. Please explain it for us. I mean, look at this mom. Why
would she do that that? She looks just like a Barbie Doll.
MARSHALL: I know. She`s gorgeous, but this woman is desperate for attention.
Munchausen by proxy is when a mother systematically poisons the child in order to take the child in for medical treatment because she craves the
attention of the hospital staff. So she`s willing to poison and potentially kill her own child because she loves the adoration of being in
a hospital. And I wouldn`t be surprised in this if she wasn`t fixated on some of the hospital staff.
GRACE: Interesting. Colin Jeffrey, KTRS, what were the boy`s symptoms? Because he`d always get well in the hospital. And be fine. And then when
he goes is when he suddenly, quote, "get sick again." What were his symptoms? What was he enduring?
JEFFREY: Well, that`s what the doctors finally noticed. And that`s (INAUDIBLE) said is when she was removed from his house, he immediately
seemed to clear up. And then when he would go home, they said he would fall into a very serious condition once again.
GRACE: Another Top 10 CNN Hero, after losing her close friend to cancer, Jody Farley-Berens brings volunteers Scottsdale, Arizona, to provide relief
to other mothers fighting the disease.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODY FARLEY-BERENS, CNN TOP 10 HERO: Cancer sucks. And there`s not a lot of happy that goes with that. But life does still go on, and everybody has
the right to be happy and have a good time and just put their cares aside, even for just a few hours.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Go to CNNheroes.com and vote for the CNN Hero of the Year.
[20:54:11]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Justin, mommy allegedly poisons her 9-year-old boy for a year, is there any chance she`s going to get him back?
FREIMAN: Well, the judge said she`s not supposed to go near him but her defense attorneys say they`re going to fight. They deny these allegations
and say she loves her son and wants to get him back.
GRACE: Let`s remember American hero, Texas Police Chief Darrell Allen, 43, killed in the line of duty. Served 21 years, six as Marlin police chief.
Loved bowling, going to his children`s judo competitions, dedicated to community. Leaves behind a grieving widow and children.
Darrell Allen, American hero.
Happy birthday to Florida friend Julia, a mother of eight. Loves reading, soap operas.
And happy birthday to friend Elizabeth, visiting family from Kenya. A great grandmother, loving travels, cooking and dancing. Daughter Kristina
sending hugs and kisses.
And Mercy Care helps the homeless annual coat drive. Goal, 1200 gifts of warmth, gloves, socks, scarves. Drop-off sports, go to mercycare.org.
And please, everyone, tonight, send up your prayers for our friend, Erin Dechara. She needs them now, fighting leukemia at MD Anderson. Please
pray for Erin.
Thanks to all of our guests and especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And
until then, good night, friend.
END
