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Nancy Grace
Dad of 4 Paralyzed in Rest Stop Shooting; Clinic Shooter`s First Court Appearance. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired November 30, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news now. We go live to catch a bad guy after a North Carolina dad of four special needs children paralyzed --
paralyzed! -- from the waist down while washing his hands at a rest stop, the dad, Greg McKee driving his family home after Thanksgiving.
Bombshell now. The perp that shoots him caught on video. Let`s get this guy behind bars where he belongs!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A simple pit stop at this Cabarrus County rest stop. Two men entered the bathroom. She heard a loud bang.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They shot him. In the back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Surveillance video of a man who immediately left the area.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My daughter, 5 years old, was just sitting on the floor, looking at her daddy in his own blood.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Colorado Springs. A mother of two, an Iraqi war veteran and a police officer gunned down dead at the local Planned
Parenthood clinic, the rampage touching off a tense standoff and shootout with police, nine others in the hospital, the alleged gunman appearing in
court. We are there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After a bloody six-hour standoff, leaving three dead and nine more injured.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They laid their lives on the line today to prevent the disaster today that we witnessed getting worse.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This shooting comes just a few months after a series of videos produced by anti-abortion activists were released.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Sex killer Jodi Arias saw me as her boyfriend, says the lawyer forced to defend her at trial in the murder of lover Travis
Alexander after an all-day sex marathon. That lawyer, Kirk Nurmi, says Arias, true to form, tried to manipulate him the whole trial, flirting
nonstop, even spouting out details about her, quote, "vaginal grooming." Those are her words, not mine!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you kill Travis Alexander?
JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED OF MURDER: Yes, I did.
He called me a skank. He called me porn star.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s you, and I wanted to cover you up because - - that`s you, all of you.
ARIAS: It looks like me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nine days out of ten, I don`t like Jodi Arias.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. We go live to catch a bad guy after a North Carolina dad of four special needs children paralyzed from the waist down
while he`s washing his hands at a rest stop, the dad, Greg McKee, driving his family home after Thanksgiving, the perp caught on video! Let`s get
this guy behind bars where he belongs!
Can you imagine, the father of four special needs children? It`s hard enough raising two children that are perfectly normal. I know. But four
special needs children? He and his wife have been together all these years raising these four special needs children.
He`s trying to bring them home from Thanksgiving. They stop at a rest stop. He goes in the bathroom. He`s washing his hands, and these two
thugs come up behind him. They don`t even rob him. They shoot him as he`s trying to leave. And now he`s paralyzed forever from the waist down. And
they have gotten away.
Joey Hudson joining me, host on WGTK. I want to start at the beginning because that`s how you catch a bad guy, Joey Hudson. I want to
start at the beginning. I want to look at the facts. Dispassionately, tell me what happened.
JOEY HUDSON, WGTK (via telephone): Nancy, Greg and Terry (ph) McKee were traveling back from Lynchburg, Virginia, to their home in Gastonia
(ph), North Carolina. They literally were just about 40 miles away from home when they took a quick stop at this rest area along I-85 there, just
outside of Charlotte, North Carolina. They stopped. They noticed a couple of guys outside of the men`s restroom.
GRACE: Whoa. Whoa, whoa!
HUDSON: Didn`t think much of it.
GRACE: Was that night or day? Night or day?
HUDSON: Mr. McKee went in and was...
GRACE: Joey, Joey, Joey, can you hear me?
HUDSON: ... standing there washing his hands, and these two...
GRACE: Joey! Can you hear me?
HUDSON: ... came in, surrounded him...
GRACE: Guys -- Joey, can you hear me?
HUDSON: Yes.
GRACE: I`m asking you questions. Let me ask you this. Was it night or day? What time was it?
HUDSON: It was 8:00 o`clock on Saturday evening.
GRACE: Saturday evening. That`s an odd time, 8:00 o`clock. All right. So there were plenty of people still on the road. This was not
some obscure time, 1:00, 2:00, 3:00 o`clock in the morning. And at a rest stop, especially with the heavily traveled roads after Thanksgiving, you
know people are going to be coming in and out of rest stops.
[20:05:04]OK, back to Joey Hudson. About 8:00 PM Saturday night, 40 miles from home, they stop at this rest stop, Cabarrus County rest area off
85 south.
What happens, Joey? He goes in the bathroom.
HUDSON: He goes into the bathroom. He`s over washing his hands. These two men come in. They are standing on either side of him. At this
point, he realized one of the men has a gun, and he tries to leave. He tries to run. And when he does, that`s when they gun him down, shoot him
in the back. I mean, what cowards!
GRACE: And they didn`t even steal anything, is that right, Joey Hudson?
HUDSON: Did not take a thing.
GRACE: Oh!
HUDSON: His wife said that she heard the shots. She went in to try to see what had happened. They had left. It is believed they fled on foot
and did not try to take anything.
GRACE: I`m just sick about it! Candace Trunzo, senior news editor, Dailymail.com -- I mean, it`s hard enough raising children when everybody`s
well, all right, between working and raising children and trying to do the right thing.
But here`s a father of four special needs. I know for a fact one of them has autism. I`m not sure what the other special needs are. But I
know one of them has autism.
The father is in there minding his own business, Candace Trunzo, and he`s gunned down? He`s shot in the back? He`s paralyzed from the waist
down?
Hey, Liz, as I`m talking to Candace Trunzo and Joey Hudson, can you show me the video of the perp? Look how he`s kind of keeping his head down
and kind of looking side to side. He knows he`s passing a camera. Hey, I see you, guy! We`re going to get you. And you`re going to jail because
somebody watching this show right now knows who you are.
So Candace, tell me what more do you know about this guy. Did they leave on foot, Candace?
CANDACE TRUNZO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): They left on foot, Nancy. And we see this guy -- he`s wearing a long-sleeved white shirt. He
has dreadlocks. He`s wearing jeans and sneakers. Unfortunately, we only have the picture of the one, but if you find the one, then we`re going to
find the other two.
GRACE: Oh, yes.
TRUNZO: This was a guy who -- Mr. McKee, a single breadwinner for the family. Wife took care of the kids, home-schooled them. They`re dependent
on him for everything. He works and he supports the family. The wife is at home. This is a real tragedy.
GRACE: Joining me right now, I`m hearing in my ear, from Concorde (ph), N.C., Detective Sergeant Pfister, the Cabarrus County sheriff`s
office.
Detective, we are so grateful that you`re here today because I want this guy and his co-defendant behind bars. They need to be behind bars for
life. For life! Not that it would have made any difference, Detective, if they had robbed the father of four. They didn`t even rob him!
Tell me what we know, Detective Sergeant Pfister. What do we know about this perp and his co-defendant?
DET. SGT. PFISTER, CABARRUS COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE (via telephone): We know they were in the rest area during the stated time, between 7:45 and
8:00 PM on Saturday night, November 28th, in the southbound rest area of Interstate 85 between exits 58 and 60.
GRACE: What`s the (INAUDIBLE)
PFISTER: The gentleman that you have the video for is a gentleman of interest that was seen -- captured nearby just prior to the incident.
GRACE: Hey, Pfister, do you see how tall he is? Watch him. Yes, there you go. There`s our map right there. What is this near? What
vicinity is this, Detective Pfister?
PFISTER: We are just north of Charlotte, North Carolina, near Concorde Mills and the Charlotte Motor Speedway.
GRACE: The Charlotte Motor Speedway. OK, this is Saturday after Thanksgiving, when a lot of people were sitting around, having leftover
turkey and counting their blessings in front of the fireplace, this father of four is gunned down at the rest stop.
Liz, I want to show the perp again. Sheriff -- excuse me, Detective Sergeant Pfister, Cabarrus County sheriff`s office, look how tall he is as
he passes those Coke machines, those vending machines. Not there. One more time, if you don`t mind, Liz. He`s -- oh, he`s almost as tall as the
ones to the right of him.
So how tall is this guy? He`s got to weigh in at least, at least a deuce and a quarter. This guy`s got to be 225. What do you think?
PFISTER: Yes, he`s definitely heavyset and he`s over 6 foot tall. Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: Let`s take a listen to the 911 call. What can we learn? Look at this guy! Help me!
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Cabarrus County 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey -- hey, my stepfather has been shot by a gun!
911 OPERATOR: Where at, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m at a rest area.
911 OPERATOR: On 85?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Sir, you on the northbound or southbound side of 85?
[20:10:00]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Southbound.
911 OPERATOR: Southbound side?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right here -- 160, 160 rest stop, in the bathroom.
911 OPERATOR: You in the bathroom?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two African-Americans -- yes, sir, on the rest area. Two African-American men walked in...
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: You are hearing one of the disabled children, the oldest one, I think, calling 911. And you can hear his words. He`s so distraught
trying to get help.
I mean, can you imagine, your dad lying there bleeding out on the floor of this rest stop, and you`re -- in the middle of the night, 8:00
o`clock at night, trying to get 911 there to save his life?
Joey Hudson with me, WGTK, Candace Trunzo, Dailymail.com and Detective Sergeant Pfister with Cabarrus County sheriff`s office.
I`m focusing on the perp. We know that there are two of them, Detective. Do you believe they left on foot? Because I don`t believe
that. Maybe they left out the door on foot, but they had to get away in a vehicle.
PFISTER: Correct. We just have no one that puts them in a vehicle, ma`am, as they`re exiting the property.
GRACE: Detective, are there any other surveillance videos in that rest stop? I thought they were crawling with videos.
PFISTER: Unfortunately, there are not.
GRACE: Oh! OK. Where was the 5-year-old little girl when Daddy was shot?
PFISTER: I believe she was back in the vehicle.
GRACE: I`m trying to figure out the logistics of this. Detective Sergeant Pfister with Cabarrus County sheriff`s.
Everybody, let me give you the tip line. And Matt Zarrell, let me know if we have the Gofundme information up ASAP. The tip line 704-93-
CRIME -- 704-932-7463. We`re trying to track down the Gofundme right now for this father, Greg McKee, paralyzed from the waist down, gunned down by
two thugs at a highway rest area with his family waiting in the car.
He was washing his hands in the bathroom, two suspects come in, they shoot him as he tries to flee, and they are on the run.
Detective Pfister, so the only camera really is that one where all the vending machines are?
PFISTER: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: Do you believe that the scene was processed adequately? I know so many people were in and out, but I`m -- they had to touch the
doorknob. They had to leave some prints behind.
PFISTER: Yes. Our agency, along with other law enforcement agencies, as soon as the incident occurred, we locked the area down and began the
crime scene processing. It was thoroughly processed.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:17:00]GRACE: Live, Colorado Springs where a mother of two, an Iraqi war veteran and a police officer gunned down dead at the local
Planned Parenthood clinic, the rampage touching off a tense standoff and shootout with police, nine other people in the hospital, the alleged gunman
appearing in court. We are there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Seen carrying bags into the building with him, the suspect then barricades himself inside Planned Parenthood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two civilians killed in the brazen shooting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five officers are shot on scene, one of them 44- year-old Garrett Swasey.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suspect expressed anti-abortion and anti- government views to officers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Ken Clark, talk show host, KNUS. Ken, thank you so much for being with us. We know what happened generally speaking, but as the
moments tick by, we`re learning more and more. Bottom line, this guy who shoots up a local clinic in court -- look at this guy. Look at this guy!
He guns down a mother of two, an Iraqi war vet and a police officer, leaving nine more people in the hospital.
Ken Clark, KNUS, how did he pick this clinic? What do we know about this guy?
KEN CLARK, KNUS (via telephone): Well, what we know now is this guy has a long history of being pretty much a recluse. And he had kind of a
rap sheet. I mean, he had been arrested for breaking peeping tom rules, or laws. He had been -- had complaints called against him in South Carolina
over stalking and different issues like that.
GRACE: He targeted this clinic, and I think he targeted this clinic because he`s anti-abortion. Headline! There were more people -- more
people go to this clinic than just people seeking abortions. There are people there for all sorts of free medical attention.
What can you tell me about the way he lived, Ken Clark?
CLARK: Well, the way he lived was that of a recluse, that of a hermit. He had -- when he lived in South Carolina, he had a place with no
running water. He lived alone in an area in Colorado that is typically for people that are back to nature, environmentalist types. He wasn`t that
way. He wanted a place where he could hunt. But he still wanted a lot of seclusion.
Now, the police aren`t releasing any information about his motive. We do know from other reports that he did talk about the videos. He did talk
about baby parts. And when this thing first unfolded, nobody really understood or knew that it was the abortion clinic that he did, in fact,
target. We now know that that is accurate.
GRACE: Hold on. Hold on, Ken. I`m showing a photo right now. That`s the shack where he lived. And I guess he was trying to solicit
women to come there to his shack and his outhouse to have deviant sex.
CLARK: Yes.
[20:20:00]GRACE: OK, hold on, Ken Clark. I`m being joined right now by Tessa Smart, a witness to the Planned Parenthood shooting. Tessa, thank
you so much for being with us.
TESSA SMART, WITNESS (via telephone): You`re welcome.
GRACE: Tessa, what did you observe? Just take it from the very beginning.
SMART: So I was in a chiropractor`s office that I work at. And I heard what I thought was gunshots. And I quickly went into denial because
why in the world would I be hearing gunshots in a strip mall, which is where my chiropractor`s office is located?
And there was actually a patient standing at the window, and I kind of looked to her face for reassurance, and she looked confused but she never
ran away. So I was able to keep convincing myself that those were not gunshots.
Finally, curiosity got the best of me. I went up to the door and immediately heard bullets flying by the door. One of them definitely hit
something. And that`s when I knew I had to lock the doctor`s office down right away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A caller tells police a white male around 50 years old and wearing a hunting hat and puffy jacket is carrying a long gun
and firing at people.
[20:25:04]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The suspect expressed anti-abortion and anti-government views to officers. It`s still unclear whether these
opinions may have motivated the deadly assault.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Of course he`s anti-government. We`re all anti-government. Nobody likes the government. Nobody likes rules. Nobody likes working
every day and having to fork your money over to the government so they can have a big boondoggle in Washington. This guy targets a local clinic and
guns down a mother of two, an Iraqi war vet and a police officer in his rampage!
Unleash the lawyers, Misty Marris, New York, Robin Ficker, defense attorney, Maryland. Robin Ficker, why does he have a first appearance, so
he can come up with some lie in front of the judge?
ROBIN FICKER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They`ve been picking out a few words of what he said to make it look like he`s anti-abortion. This is a guy who
followed his neighbor around a number of times because he thought his neighbor made a complaint about his dog. He`s been seeking people out to
smoke marijuana with. He`s a nut case.
GRACE: Put him up, please!
FICKER: We need a psychiatric evaluation yesterday.
GRACE: OK. The fact that he can post Facebook requests for what some people would consider deviant sex, the fact that he has had these previous
brushes with the laws, they`re euphemistically called, peeping tom, domestic relations, stalking. I mean, when you stalk somebody that you
think hurt your dog or some pet-related offense, that`s not crazy. That`s evil, and it`s against the law.
So -- but you know what? Let me just nip your argument in the bud, Ficker, because I don`t care if he`s anti-abortion or pro-abortion. I
don`t care if he`s anti-government. It doesn`t matter. His motive is irrelevant because, Misty Marris, isn`t it true that at trial, the state
does not have to prove a motive?
MISTY MARRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s true, Nancy. But here I agree with Ficker. We have somebody who is clearly going to be using the
insanity defense. And it`s not based on the factors that you just set forth, Nancy. It`s also based on on-line rants about the apocalypse and
crazy rants about the world ending that a jury is going to see and make the assessment.
GRACE: Put her up. Put her up! Don`t you recall that ultra-right- wing religious group that predicted the world was going to come to end? Oh, they do it, like, every three or four months, there`s going to be
another end of the times. They`re not all crazy. They hold down jobs. They go to church every Sunday. You know, they read, they write, they do
arithmetic. They`ve all graduated from college. They`re not crazy. That`s just their chosen belief. That`s not crazy.
MARRIS: Absolutely, Nancy, but this gentleman...
(CROSSTALK)
MARRIS: Well, the on-line rants are part of it. He absolutely needs a psychiatric evaluation.
GRACE: I`m not saying...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Ken Clark, KNUS, I`m not saying the guy shouldn`t get a psych evaluation. Everybody over at the jail wants a psych evaluation. Have at
it. I`d be mad if they didn`t. But just because he`s anti-government and anti-abortion, maybe, that doesn`t mean he`s crazy. And frankly, neither
of the two -- of those two justify what he did!
CLARK: Well, I don`t have a psychology degree, but I can tell you right now anybody crazy enough to do something like this is certifiable. I
think that kind of goes without saying.
GRACE: Oh, really?
CLARK: I mean, you take a look at this guy`s history...
GRACE: So you think all mass killers...
(CROSSTALK)
CLARK: It all adds up.
GRACE: So you think all mass killers are legally insane. Is that what you think?
CLARK: Like I said...
GRACE: You think Ted Bundy was legally insane?
CLARK: ... I didn`t go to psychology school. But yes, I mean, nobody -- no sane individual`s going to pick up a rifle and go start shooting
people.
GRACE: Really?
CLARK: I mean, I just -- I just don`t see that.
GRACE: OK. What about Eric Rudolph? Do you remember him? He bombed the abortion clinics in Atlanta? And one of his bombs` shrapnel hit my
investigator at the time? He had them carefully designed so one would go off after the police got to the first one.
So you`re saying that this guy is legally insane? He`s got to be crazy because he did something so evil?
CLARK: I`m not saying that. Like I said, I`m not a psychiatrist. But -- well, no, let me rephrase that. Yes, I am saying that. The guy`s a
nutjob. I mean, who else goes into any clinic, whether it`s an abortion clinic, whether it`s an Aurora school -- a movie theater, and starts
blowing away innocent people? I mean, you`ve got to be a little bit sick to be doing something like that, Nancy, don`t you think?
GRACE: Actually, no. I think that there is a very distinct difference between evil and hatred and insanity. I don`t think because you
do something horrible and deadly -- I don`t think that makes you insane. Insanity, under our law, is that you do not know at the time of the
incident right from wrong.
And, I think he definitely knew right from wrong. Tessa Smart is with me, who witnessed the Planned Parenthood shooting. Tessa, when did you
realized people were being killed?
TESSA SMART, WITNESS TO PLANNED PARENTHOOD SHOOTING: It was not until I got up from my desk after hearing what I thought was bullets. I finally
got up from my desk, went by the door and that is when I heard a distinct - - I heard bullets go by, and one of them definitely hit something.
I do not know if it was the side of the grocery store, stop sign, trash can, not sure, but that is when I knew. And, then I saw police
ducked behind their cars, running around with shields, running behind a bank for protection, that is when I knew what was really happening.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:35:11] GRACE: Sex killer, Jodi Arias, "Saw me as her boyfriend", says the lawyer forced to defend her at trial, for the murder of lover,
Travis Alexander, after an all day sex marathon.
That lawyer, L. Kirk Nurmi says arias, true to form, tried to manipulate even him throughout the trial by flirting with Nurmi nonstop,
even spouting out details about her, quote, "vaginal grooming". Those are her words, not mine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: You ended up in his bed, right?
JODI ARIAS, SEX KILLER: I think it was a love sex.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): Did you love Matt?
ARIAS: Very much. Yes, I was in love with him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): You fell in love with Darryl?
ARIAS: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: That was OK, right?
ARIAS: I am single.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN BURNS, JODI ARIAS` EX-BOYFRIEND: We were kissing and then she eventually kind of grabbed me and she got on top of me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me right now is the man, L. Kirk, author of "Trapped with Ms. Arias." I thought it was a typo, but I believe I see a part one
at the end of that. It is like a scary movie or "Sharknado." You know, there is got to be a sequel. Former attorney for Jodi Arias. Kirk, thank
you for being with us.
L. KIRK NURMI, JODI ARIAS" FORMER ATTORNEY: Thank you, Nancy. Thank you for having me.
GRACE: You know, I gave you a lot of "H-E-L-L" during the trial. I am sure you heard about that. It was largely focused at Ms. Arias. I am
deeply intrigued by your book "Trapped with Ms. Arias." So, do you believe -- and I am going to get into the details. But, Kirk --
NURMI: Sure.
GRACE: Do you believe that she was -- first of all, you are married, right?
NURMI: Yes, ma`am, about 22 years, going on 23.
GRACE: Good to know. Good to know. I am glad to hear that. I am glad to hear that.
NURMI: Thank you.
GRACE: Because I doubt your wife took very kindly to the flirtation that you are describing in this book, but that is another can of worms that
I am going to get to. So, do you believe, Kirk, that Jodi Arias was using sex, not that you two ever had sex, but sexuality to manipulate you to do
what? That is my question. You were already defending her.
NURMI: Well, there is a couple of things I would say about that. As one of the things I pointed out in the book is that I believe she was a
victim of sexual abuse. Her mannerisms, her behavior, the way she expressed herself was consistent with that.
There were certainly times, not just her sexuality, but as I talk about in the book, you know, threats that she is going to bad mouth me if I
do not do what she wants, things of that nature, to try to manipulate me into whatever she had in mind. So, we are talking -- you know, you are
asking the question, manipulate into what? We are talking about a five- year span of time. So, whatever --
GRACE: Probably, any number of things.
NURMI: -- Whatever was going on her mind in that particular time --
GRACE: You know, one thing --
NURMI: Yes.
GRACE: -- for instance, L. Kirk Nurmi, you say that you did not think it was advisable to trash Travis Alexander, i.e., say that -- I can
understand the defense strategy of saying, "He hit me first. He started this, and I was responding".
OK. That is how it all started. But ,then to say that he was a -- would be child molester, that he just really was a sordid character, it is
my understanding that you did not think that was a good strategy.
NURMI: Well, Nancy, you know, one of the things I pointed out in the book is that the ultimate job of myself, and my team as a defense attorney
is to save the client`s life.
GRACE: Yes.
NURMI: Allegations such as this would obviously have a tendency to turn the jury against her. And, ultimately, as we know with the
fascination in the case the entire world against her. My concern was to the effect that assertions like this would have on her ultimate sentence.
One of the things I pointed out in the book is that I think I would have a much easier time saving her life had this been a girl with no
priors, who got involved in this heated sexual relationship and went crazy over two or three minutes in time. It would have been much easier to save
her life than the --
GRACE: Much easier. Because Kirk, if you had gotten a jury up there and you had had some woman -- or a man on the jury that had gotten
extremely angry with a boyfriend, a husband, a lover, whatever, and for a few moments like -- I do not know, slash their tires or egg their house or
slap them.
[20:40:05] Just something that was -- that is not acceptable and not OK if you had channeled into that, that anger, that may have been a
strategy, not that I believe any of it is true; or the strategy that she started with, I think, he was the aggressor.
But, to say he molested children and to attack his core as a person, who he was, I think that derailed the whole thing. Forget about that, you
say that Jodi Arias actually tried to discuss her vaginal grooming with you. Her words, not mine.
Now, I never thought when I was going through law school or trying to get a law review that, that would be my topic of discussion. But it is.
So, is that correct that she would actually discuss her vaginal grooming with you? And, I thought you two were talking about trial strategy.
NURMI: Well, you know, certainly, the sexual aspects of her relationship with Mr. Alexander as I pointed out in the book were fair game
or fertile ground for discussion. For whatever reason at that point in time, Ms. Arias decided to take it one step further and talk about that
subject, if you will.
You know, to me, I was not shocked by it. I have been around the block. I have been a Criminal Defense Attorney for more than 12 years at
that point in time. I had handled a lot of cases of sexual nature. And, ultimately, to me, as sensational as it is to talk about, it was just
another sign to me that she was a victim of sexual abuse.
GRACE: OK. So, you think she was a victim of sexual abuse. You know, Mr. Nurmi, at a time when she had with her own bare hands murdered
Travis Alexander for whatever reason she thought she was justified in doing that, I hardly think the state of her vaginal grooming is shocking.
What was shocking to me was the slit from one ear to the next. You know, I am not really concerned with her vagina, OK? I am more concerned
with his body slumped over in that shower. And, I am sure you were more concerned about how you were going to save her life. But, here is the
moment that really sticks in my memory, Mr. Nurmi. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS (singing): Holy night, the stars are brightly shining. It is the night of our dear savior`s birth.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:46:57] L. KIRK NURMI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Did you kill Travis Alexander?
ARIAS: Yes, I did.
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ARIAS: He called me a Skank. He called me porn star.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: That is you, and I wanted to cover you up because --
ARIAS: Oh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: That is you, all of you.
ARIAS: That looks like me.
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NURMI: Nine days out of ten, I do not like her.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: I do not know which pictures to show you. How about that one? You remember him?
ARIAS: Yes. Is he naked? In the shower?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Yes.
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ARIAS: Travis would never go for that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Soon after you and him had sex on his bed.
ARIAS: It could not have been too soon after.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: An hour or so.
ARIAS: The last time we had sex in his bed was in April.
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NURMI: What point in time that first encounter happened?
ARIAS: It was in the spring 2007. I think it was in May.
NURMI: Where were you when this first happened?
ARIAS: I was in his bed.
NURMI: In his bed where?
ARIAS: In his bedroom in his house in Mesa.
NURMI: Tell us what happened.
ARIAS: We fell asleep. And, I woke up and he was on top of me. And, he had already penetrated and started having sex with me.
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GRACE: I mean, L. Kirk Nurmi, everybody, is Jodi Arias` forced defense lawyer, how many times did this guy try to get off the trial? Did
you just hear her right there, Kirk? His book, "Trapped with Ms. Arias," she is saying, "Yeah, that kind of looks like me."
Hello, you are butt naked lying on the bed with a close-up shot. It is you, Jodi Arias, it is you, all right? And, hey, if you want to take
naked pictures of yourself, that is fine with me. But, then to tell a cop, "Yeah, that -- that could be me." It is you!
So, please describe how you believe -- OK, Liz. We have seen it. Thanks. You can take it down. How you believe, Jodi Arias, manipulated
you, other than, of course, talking about her vaginal grooming?
NURMI: I do not think she did. I think she tried. I mean, I think we have -- you know, the incident when I tried to get off the case and she
tried to make sure that I remained on the case, which happened, which goes to my title in April of 2004 being trapped with her.
GRACE: Why did you want off the case?
[20:50:00] NURMI: Well, you know, I was assigned the case back in 2009, as a public defender. I did not really know what it was. We do not
really have choices when we are a public defender. When I wanted to leave the office, I wanted to be done with doing capitol work.
And, also, I kind of saw where this case is going. I had about over a year under my belt with Ms. Arias at the time, and I could see where this
case is going. I knew what kind of result this would have on me going through this --
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, it sounds like you are saying wanted off the case because you knew she was going to get convicted. And, I do not
believe that about you --
NURMI: No.
GRACE: Because hey, the public defenders, most of their clients do get convicted because they are guilty. So, give it to me in nutshell, Kirk
Nurmi -- L. Kirk Nurmi, why did you want off the case?
NURMI: Well, I am not saying that I wanted off the case because I thought she was guilty. What I am saying is I wanted off the case because
I had a sense of what it would become in terms of the media exposure, in terms of what she was going to do. And, I did not want to be a part of it.
I did not want to do capitol work anymore.
GRACE: OK. Got it.
NURMI: I wanted to move into private practice.
GRACE: Got it. Dr. Lee Norman is with us, the Chief Medical Examiner at University of Kansas Hospital. Dr. Norman, thank you so much for being
with us.
DR. LEE NORMAN, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS HOSPITAL: Hello, Nancy.
GRACE: Travis Alexander was stabbed many, many times. He was shot and the most gruesome attack was slitting his throat from ear to ear. Now,
assuming that the stab wounds were before and after the throat slashing, how long could he have lived after the throat slashing?
I mean I know he made it to the sink and saw himself in the mirror because the blood suggested that it dropped down into the sink in front of
the mirror.
DR. NORMAN: Well, there is a lot of vital structures in the neck, obviously. Arteries and veins most particularly, and yet a person can be
cognizant of what is going on for a minute or two. Their brain does not shut down completely just because the body is being drained of its blood.
GRACE: Wow. So, a minute or two of complete torture. Dr. Ramani Durvasula, Psychologist, L.A., you are hearing L. Kirk Nurmi described
Arias` -- Jodi Arias` attempt to manipulation of him. You know, you think, Ramani, that if you want off the case, just get off, but it is not that
easy, Dr. Romney. The judge would not let him off. So, what does that do to you when you are stuck with somebody like Jodi Arias and you cannot get
away?
RAMANI DURVASULA, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I mean, it can really feel like -- It can feel like you are in a spider`s web, literally. And,
we know, we have watched this trial so carefully. Jodi Arias really was a master manipulator. It is somehow she worked to the world. She was very
sexualized in how she dealt with people.
So, I think his experience must have felt like literally the walls were closing in on him and there is no getting out. It can feel
claustrophobic. It can feel panicky and yet, he had to do his job.
GRACE: Right.
DURVASULA: So, this is what Jodi Arias is good at and she did it well with everybody. She was likely still doing it in prison.
GRACE: Speaking of, Valerie Paraiso, KFYI, there are reports she is getting special treatment behind bars?
VALERIE PARASO, KFYI NEWS REPORTER (via phone): There are reports that she is getting special treatment behind bars. And, apparently, one of
the inmates asked her little sister to share the message.
She says Jodi Arias is getting different things, like all the wardens greet her. She has carpet in her room. She has a T.V. in the rec room,
but prison officials would come out and said that, that is not true. They said she does get outside yard by herself.
GRACE: OK. Oops, hold on. L. Kirk Nurmi, "Trapped with Ms. Arias", you know, I really respect you staying on the trial as much as you wanted
to get away. Your book is fascinating, and I will try to reserve my caustic comments for Ms. Arias and not you. Best with your book "Trapped
with Ms. Arias." With us tonight, L. Kirk Nurmi.
[20:54:15] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember American hero California Police Officer Ricardo "Ricky" Galvez, 29, killed in the line of duty, served Downey police and
marine, two tours, Iraq and Afghanistan. Beautiful smile. Fulfill the dream of buying his mother a home. Leaves behind mother, brother, two
sisters. Ricardo, "Ricky" Galvez, American hero.
And, another bombshell, our signature handcuff jewelry available, special coupon code, NancyGrace.com. Proceeds to child abuse and neglect
victims. Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off, I will see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp eastern,
until then, good night, friend.
END
