Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Baby Hot Car Death Defense Tries to Suppress Evidence; Attempted Baby Kidnap in Kohl`s Restroom. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired December 14, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. The tragic death of 22- month-old toddler boy, Cooper, seemingly left alone for hours in a baking hot car by Daddy, damning evidence Daddy sex-texting six different women,
sending photos of his erect penis as baby Cooper bakes dead in the family car. Daddy indicted on charges.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, Justin Ross Harris in court demanding the judge throw out evidence so the jury never knows the truth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She states, Ross must have left him in the car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On a sweltering hot day, for seven hours. Allegations he was sexting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are photos of his exposed penis.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While his son was dying inside their car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And she looks at him and she`s, like, Well, did you say too much?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Valley Stream. Give me the baby. Police release closed-circuit TV images of a woman who tries to snatch a toddler boy from
Mommy`s arms in a shopping mall bathroom during the busy Christmas shopping rush.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An Oceanside (ph) mom brought her 18-month-old child to Green Acres Mall for holiday shopping. But when she got inside
Kohl`s department store, inside the bathroom...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She took his arm like this. He pulled away, and I went like that, and I said, No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, after "Dance Mom" Abby Lee Miller (ph) escapes accusations for the slap-fest caught on video on Lifetime TV, is she headed
to jail on brand-new accusations that she cheats the tax man on nearly $1 million stashed away?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Abby is still steaming over the shocking confrontation with "Dance Mom" Kelly Hyland (ph) last November. Season six
puts Abby Lee`s court case front and center.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My hair`s in rollers. I don`t have a bra on, and I have a huge legal issue going on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That from "Entertainment Tonight" and Lifetime.
Washington township, a 32-year-old young mom torches the family home with the family inside, including four children and the grandparents, to
cover up the kidnap of her tot girl after Mommy loses custody.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mom is accused of kidnapping her own child and lighting her parents` house on fire with her kids inside.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They started a fire as a pretext to run into the house and tell everyone there`s a fire and then grab the four children and
abduct them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Fredericksburg, a 21-year-old beauty found dead in her car 30 minutes from her own home. Local home owners come to inquire,
think she`s asleep at the wheel. They realize the girl is dead. In the days leading up to her death, Heather complaining about a female stalker.
In the last hours, is there a break in the case?
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. The tragic death of a 22-month-old tot, Cooper, left alone for hours in a baking hot car by Daddy, damning evidence Daddy
sex-texting six different women at the same time, even sending photos of his erect penis while his baby boy, baby Cooper, is baking dead in the
family car.
In the last hours, Justin Ross Harris in a court of law. Listen to this. He and his defense team demanding the judge throw out evidence so
this jury will never know the truth.
Straight out to Veronica Waters, WSB, in court. Veronica, thank you for being with us. What exactly is it that Daddy wants thrown out of
court?
VERONICA WATERS, WSB (via telephone): You know, it`s interesting, Nancy, that what they`re trying to get away from the jury in this case,
when it starts next February, is all the stuff that the prosecution is using to prove motive in this case.
Now, you and I know that prosecutors don`t have to prove motive, but they would have a hard time proving malice murder in Ross Harris`s murder
trial if they throw out evidence of this sexting.
So it`s a little inside baseball, but looking at this, we see why legal eagles think that (INAUDIBLE) one on that (INAUDIBLE) hearing,
there`s the computer, the several computers that Ross Harris had, his iPad, his phone. They say that police never had probable cause to search any of
that, and they don`t want the jury to know about the sexting of the six women that Harris did. They don`t want the jury to know about the Internet
search history he had, this video that he watched (INAUDIBLE)
[20:05:06]GRACE: Right.
WATERS: ... how long it takes pets to die in a hot car.
GRACE: Oh! Oh! You know what? Liz, after we dip into the courtroom, I want you to pull up that video of that veterinarian, that
Daddy had been watching about how long it takes for a dog to die in a hot car.
Mike Duffy, joining me right now outside the courthouse. Mike Duffy, what did they want to get rid of is all that computer and cell phone
evidence that shows him sending pictures of his erect penis, all the sex- texting that he was doing while his baby dies in the car.
Also, remember he made up this ruse, according to prosecutors, that he needed to go buy light bulbs at Lowe`s or Home Depot or somebody, and then
he gets all of his friends to pile into the car at lunchtime to take him to get a light bulb? Then while the baby is dead in the car, he makes a big
production of opening the car door, throwing it in. What, you didn`t see the baby dead in there? Gets back in with his friends and goes back to
work after lunch.
But there`s something else. Mike Duffy, do they want it suppressed that both Daddy and Mommy said their worst fear was their child dying in a
hot car, and they had both looked up video about children dying in a hot car? I`ve never looked up children dying in a hot car!
MIKE DUFFY, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, Nancy, the defense is basically trying to characterize the investigators as having gone on a
fishing expedition. Now, the state is saying that they used the evidence that both Leanna and Justin were saying, making statements about having
done these searches for video. So...
GRACE: OK, wait. Wa-wait! Mike Duffy...
DUFFY: ... there`s both sides here that are...
GRACE: ... let me understand what you`re saying before you go any further. Are you telling me both Mommy -- for those of you just joining
us, the baby dies in a baking hot car. And then we find out that the dad had been looking up all these videos about animals dying in a hot car and
how long it takes to die in a hot car and how to live a child-free life.
Is that what he wants suppressed? He doesn`t want the jury to hear that, Mike Duffy?
DUFFY: Yes, he doesn`t want them to hear that. And he doesn`t want them to be able to get access to any of that electronic communication,
specifically were from his cell phone.
GRACE: Now, you were saying something else, Mike Duffy, about how the mother and the father had both stated what -- that what, that was their big
fear in life, that their child would die in a hot car?
DUFFY: Yes. Immediately after they were brought in for questioning, they both allegedly said that their biggest fear, one of their greatest
fears in life as a parent was that something like this could happen, that a child could die in a hot car.
GRACE: Phil Holloway is joining me, CNN legal analyst, criminal defense attorney. He`s there with Mike Duffy in the courtroom, along with
Veronica Waters from WSB.
Phil Holloway, thanks for being with us. I mean, that`s damning! You know, at the end of the day, sometimes I can`t even remember if I took a
bath, I`m so busy, trying to work and take care of the twins. But are you telling me that there is evidence both Mommy and Daddy took time to look up
videos? About what, animals dying in a hot car? And this is before their child dies in a hot car?
PHIL HOLLOWAY, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, we need to take a step back, because nobody has actually played the video of -- or the audio of exactly
what they said. There`s been testimony that characterizes it in one way or the other.
But there`s been a very big dispute, especially this afternoon, once the defense got into cross-examination, about whether or not they actually
were researching these things or having just simply seen something about it at one time on television. So the defense essentially, Nancy, is saying...
GRACE: Put him up, please!
HOLLOWAY: ... that the police have decided a particular narrative, and they are building their case around a narrative. The prosecutor, on
the other hand, is going to say, No...
GRACE: Please stop.
HOLLOWAY: ... we`re objectively following the evidence to the truth.
GRACE: Please stop. Phil Holloway joining me, criminal defense attorney. Let me understand something. You`re telling me to, quote, "step
back" because we haven`t heard the video -- we haven`t heard the audio, but that it has been characterized in court.
Can I ask you a question, Mr. Holloway? Isn`t it true the defense wants it suppressed?
HOLLOWAY: The defense wants everything suppressed that is a result of searching any and all electronic devices, Nancy. And it all goes back it
to the cell phone that was taken off Justin Ross Harris at the time he was initially...
GRACE: OK...
HOLLOWAY: ... taken into police custody. They`re saying that that was a warrantless search, and that anything that was done after that...
GRACE: Yes, my question was basically a yes/no.
HOLLOWAY: ... is fruit of the poisonous tree.
GRACE: Philip, so then the answer would be yes, they do want these statements suppressed. Now, what the mom and dad said to police would not
be part of the electronic search. That would be a statement. Is that correct?
[20:10:10]HOLLOWAY: That would be a statement made while in the police interrogation...
GRACE: Right.
HOLLOWAY: ... room. Yes, that`s absolutely correct.
GRACE: OK.
HOLLOWAY: They haven`t played that for us yet. We don`t know what it said.
GRACE: Uh-huh. OK, let`s hear -- let`s dip into the courtroom quickly, Liz.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Harris had made statements to the extent that he had recently searched through the Internet child deaths inside vehicles
and what temperature it occurs at and that this was one of his biggest fears.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you had mentioned the defendant admitting that this is one of his fears, that his child would die in a hot car, is that
correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there (INAUDIBLE) his wife was also (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, she was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did she disclose anything to detectives in terms of her having similar fear involving the death of her child in a car?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. The detectives that interviewed her, I believe they went to the day care to speak with her because that`s where
she was at. They said that she made similar statements that this was one of her...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So Mike Duffy, Phil Holloway, the legal analyst and the defense attorney, is saying that we don`t really know what those tapes
said. We don`t really know what they said. But didn`t they talk about it in open court?
DUFFY: They did. They definitely talked about...
GRACE: What`d they say?
DUFFY: ... the reasons for why they needed these -- they were trying to make it clear why they obtained these search warrants in the first
place. And they said one of the main reasons was that the words of both Leanna and Justin Ross Harris, that these were their biggest fears, that
they had potentially watched videos of a similar nature in the past.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m at five minutes in. It is unbelievably hot in here. We`re nearing 100 degrees already. Ten minutes in, I`ll tell you,
it is almost unbearable. At this point, the temperature is about 106 degrees.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:15:54]GRACE: A tot boy literally bakes dead in the family car while Daddy is busy sex-texting six different women. Right there, get this
mental image -- sending photos of his erect penis, leaving the baby in the car. In the last hours, he is in court fighting to suppress evidence so
the jury will never know the truth.
I`m going to go back to you, Mike Duffy, along with Phil Holloway, Veronica Waters. Mike Duffy, they`re trying to suppress a lot, not just
that the mom and the dad say that was their biggest fear the child would die in a hot car. So why did he let him die in a hot car, if that`s his
big fear? And all of the electronic evidence about the sexting.
What happened? What came out in court today, Mike Duffy, about what happened when cops got to the scene?
DUFFY: What we heard from the first witness, Detective Feiffer (ph), is that when she first went to the scene, his -- Justin Ross Harris`s
erratic behavior was all that she needed to say. He put his finger up to her face, saying he that wasn`t going to give her his ID at the moment she
asked for it. Then when another officer asked him to put down his phone, that`s when he screamed a curse word at her, and it was then...
GRACE: You know what? You know what?
DUFFY: ... that they cuffed him and took his cell phone.
GRACE: Mike Duffy, I really don`t -- we`re not in a court of law. I don`t like to hide facts from the viewers. I know you`re being very PC and
very deferential.
Unleash the lawyers, Alex Sanchez out of New York, David Lee Windecher out of Atlanta. Can I see them, please, Sanchez and Windecher?
All right, Sanchez, This is what he says to a cop. His baby has baked dead in his car while he`s sexting, OK? He`s married. A cop comes up to
talk to him, and he says, F you. He blesses (ph) -- oh, there you go. Shut the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up, all right? That`s what he says to a cop.
What about that? The cop is trying to help, Alex Sanchez.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Nancy...
GRACE: What?
SANCHEZ: ... I`m amazed you`re so surprised that a person charged with a crime would seek to block evidence, which is highly inflammatory...
GRACE: Can you address what I just asked you, please?
SANCHEZ: ... or prejudicial. Now, I don`t -- I don`t see how that -- it`s a terrible statement, but how does that indicate that he committed
murder? What I believe the evidence shows here -- he may have been negligent with all this sexting to girlfriends, but how does that rise to
the level of murder, Nancy?
GRACE: I`ll tell you how.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I`ll tell you how.
SANCHEZ: Let me know.
GRACE: And I`ll tell -- I`ll take you both to school at the same time, and let`s see if you can make an A on this exam. It`s not just the
sexting. Half of America is sexting somebody. I don`t care about the sexting. What I care about is the fact that they, he, the dad, is looking
up video after video, how long it takes an animal to die in a hot car. He is going to Web sites about living a child-free life, all these Web sites
about death and not having children -- that, David Lee Windecher, to me shows premeditation.
You look up, how long does it take for a dog about my son`s weight to die in a hot car? And then lo and behold, your son dies in a hot car while
you`re looking at the time. That doesn`t bother the two of you, Windecher?
DAVID LEE WINDECHER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, this could be a situation where they`re frantic parents and they just want to know just in
case. They`re traveling with a kid back there. And this has happened. There`s plenty of cases out there just like this.
GRACE: Just in case.
WINDECHER: So they maybe -- sure. Why not know the time?
GRACE: Just in case what, you`re sexting your girlfriend your erect penis while your child is baking in the car? Just in case that happens?
WINDECHER: The government is trying to smear his character...
GRACE: Don`t (INAUDIBLE) the government.
WINDECHER: ... with irrelevant evidence. They`re completely trying to smear him. They know that this does not make him have the motive.
GRACE: OK...
WINDECHER: Sexting does not give the motive for murder.
GRACE: ... you know what?
WINDECHER: It gives him the motive for getting a divorce.
GRACE: Again, see, you two like to talk about sexting, and I get it because it doesn`t prove murder. But what I`m talking about does show
premeditation.
[20:00:00]What a horrible death this baby had! It was scratching at its face, kicking its head back, trying to get out.
Joe Scott Morgan, let me go to you, certified death investigator, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Let`s talk about
what we know. Also, we still don`t know who he was talking to. Hold on, Joe Scott.
Mike Duffy, isn`t it true they went around and around and around like a merry-go-round today, trying to find out who Daddy`s talking to on the
phone as his son is being taken out of the car dead. He won`t tell them. Who was it? Was it his wife?
DUFFY: Well, we know he wasn`t talking to his wife because he told the cop that he needed to call his wife when she arrived. And then we also
know that he wasn`t on the phone with the day care because he even made that statement later. She`s going to go to the day care and she doesn`t
know that I`m heading there, or she doesn`t know that I wasn`t there.
GRACE: So Joe Scott Morgan, who does he need to call? He`s not called his wife. He hasn`t called the day care. Who was he screaming at
and talking to and trying to get away from the police so he can talk to them? What`s that all about?
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: I have no idea. I don`t know where this gentleman`s mind was. I hesitate to use the term
"gentleman."
What I do like to talk about is what Cooper went through because it was pure living hell, sitting back in that carseat, restrained, in a car
that could have hit an interior temperature of up to 175 degrees, when we all know that we have a survivable body temp of 98.6.
You take your kids to the hospital when they get a temperature of 103. This kid literally baked to death because -- I don`t know, maybe he was
distracted, but he wasn`t focused on what was the most important thing, and that is Cooper.
He was restrained, could hardly breathe in this environment, sweating, dizzy, probably eventually went into unconsciousness after his bowels
seized up, probably vomited on himself this biscuit that his dad allegedly bought him at Chick-fil-A early in the morning, bowels released, went
through seizures, dehydration, one of the single most horrible ways a human being can die!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:26:12]GRACE: Live, Valley Stream. Give me the baby. Police release closed-circuit TV images of a woman snatching a toddler boy from
Mommy`s arms in a shopping mall bathroom during this busy Christmas shopping rush.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He put her hand on his forearm, and I -- as soon as she did that, I pushed her hand away. And I -- and she said, Give me
the baby, again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Powers (ph), a registered nurse, fears the stranger, a woman in her mid-40s, appeared to follow them into the bathroom
in order to snatch the baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Frank Morano, talk show host, AM 970 -- Frank, thanks for being with us. Explain to me what exactly happened in the ladies`
bathroom. I understand this woman -- if we could -- there you go. Thank you. This woman approaches Mommy and baby, just 18 months old, and tries
to take the baby. What happened, Frank?
FRANK MORANO, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST (via telephone): That`s right. This is pretty frightening. It`s every parent`s worst nightmare, and it
appears as if it was calculated. Now, this woman, who was accompanied by a man, according to the security detail that we`re seeing, went in, checked
every single stall to make sure there was no one else in the ladies` room and then demanded that she hand over the baby.
GRACE: OK. Everybody, you are seeing a photo of the perp. Now, remember, she did not act alone. She had a man with her -- follows Mommy
and baby, an 18-month-old baby boy, into a busy shopping mall into the bathroom. And this was at Kohl`s shopping store.
To Justin Freiman, what more do we know?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Nancy, we know that this mom was terrified. This woman is in the bathroom. She starts
just opening different stalls, checking who`s around, and then actually says, you know, Oh, what a beautiful baby, and then tries to take the baby!
GRACE: You know, Marc Klaas, I know that a lot of abductions go down in malls, especially at Christmastime. But what do you think was your take
on actually trying to take the baby from the mom in the bathroom?
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION (via telephone): Well, it seems awfully random to me, Nancy. It just seems like an arbitrary crime. I
think the thing that needs to be pointed out...
GRACE: Does that matter? Does that matter, if it`s arbitrary? I mean, it`s her baby.
KLAAS: Of course it`s her baby. And her reaction was superb. She did everything that she should have done. The first thing she did is
trusted her instinct. She knew that she had to get out of that situation, and she did so. She got out of the bathroom. She refused to give her
child up.
And she immediately sought assistance from security. She properly identified the suspect. And then, quite frankly, she kept her own identity
-- her own identity private. I think that she really responded well. And because of her response, they`ll probably catch this woman in very short
order.
GRACE: Let`s take a look at her. Marc Klaas joining me, president, founder Klaas Kids Foundation. She`s 5-5, long blond hair, blue jacket,
yellow shirt, multicolored skirt, there at Kohl`s. 1-800-244-8477.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: After dance mom Abby Lee Miller escapes accusations on that slap fest caught on video on Lifetime TV, is she headed to jail on brand-
new accusations she allegedly cheats the tax man on nearly $1 million stashed away?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get out of my face!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The whole incident is very, very unfortunate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Season six puts Abby Lee`s court case front and center.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Abby Lee Miller faces up to five years in jail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is from Entertainment Tonight and Lifetime. For those of you just joining us, "Dance Mom`s" Abby Lee Miller in trouble again.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My hair is in rollers, I don`t have a bra on and I have a huge legal issue going on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She doesn`t want to mess with me right now. I know so much stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m finished.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Season six puts Abby Lee`s court case front and center.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Abby Lee Miller in serious legal drama, faces up to five years in jail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In a federal indictment, she is accused of concealing more than $750,000 in income and assets when she filed for
bankruptcy. She pled not guilty, and her attorney tells us they`re attempting to extend the day for filing motions, and not to expect much
activity until the new year.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you lose, that`s like someone taking a knife and just like -- in my chest.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s pretty tough, but can she handle all that pressure?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Alexis Tereszhuk, senior reporter, radaronline.com. She`s in trouble again? Liz, if you could cue up the big fight that really
started all of her legal woes.
[20:35:00]
Alexis and Alan Duke, take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I said, Brook, is your mother speaking for you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get out of my face!
(CROSSTALK)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video from Lifetime. Alexis Teresczhuk, senior reporter, radaronline.com. That really kicked it all off. But what we`re talking
about right now is outright lying to a federal judge about what, $1 million hidden away? And there`s some pretty damning statements like just make the
money, and let`s don`t go to jail. Don`t raise any red flags, stuff like that, Alexis.
TERESCZHUK: She was filing for bankruptcy, but really, she wasn`t bankrupt at all. She had almost $1 million. But she was trying to hide
it. She was setting up separate bank accounts to deposit the money in, so that people couldn`t find it. She was even getting her own mother
involved. She was having the production company pay her mother instead of paying her. That`s the way she was trying to hide it.
The only reason that she got caught is she had a super smart judge. This bankruptcy judge was flipping through the channels one Sunday night
and actually saw her on TV, and he noticed that not only does she have a show, she`s selling products, she teaches classes and he said, uh-uh, this
is not right. This woman is hiding -- she`s got an empire, a vast empire, I can see it right here with my own two eyes. So he hauled her back into
court and said no way, you`re not doing the right thing at all.
GRACE: You know what, Alan Duke, editor in chief at leadstories.com. You`re seeing video from Lifetime. I used to clerk for a federal
magistrate, they don`t like it when you lie to them. When they go home and they kick back -- first she`s been outed because she`s caught red-handed
watching reality TV, No. 1. Sure he doesn`t like that. No. 2, he sees she`s got -- selling things online, she`s got a show with a spinoff.
Whatever. He is sitting there watching it with his own eyes and realizes she had to have lied to me.
ALAN DUKE, LEADSTORIES.COM: Yes. I mean, keep in mind, she filed for bankruptcy really before she started earning all this money. It was in
2010. The show started hitting in 2011. I watch it. I was a dance dad at one time. So I really enjoyed the drama. But then the money started
rolling in, and she apparently, allegedly said I don`t want to give this up. I`m going to hide it. And not let the bankruptcy court know.
GRACE: Okay. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go to hell!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your kid would rather be with any other mother here than with you!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am not going to stand here and let you talk to my child like that. Everybody else will. I will not. I am so sick of
that. Let`s go! Go!
She`s such a [ bleep ] and I`m done. Yes, you are! I`m done. Do not treat my child like that!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You begged me to get your child -- I want this kid with me! I don`t want her with you, sleeping with some dad you`re not
even married to! No!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And look what you do. Look what you do!
Kyra, get in here. Get in here. No, you go to hell too! I`m so sick and tired of you guys, always supporting her, standing here acting like
it`s okay. I will not stand here -- I don`t understand!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t you dare get my stuff. I`ve been doing this for how many years? I am leaving. I`ve had enough. Four and a half
years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Okay, you know, Stacy Newman, I`m going to leave out the obvious point she`s running around on camera in her bra for no reason. But
isn`t it true that when somebody asked her, are you worried about this bankruptcy case, you know, you are accused of lying to a federal judge, she
goes sure, I`m worried. And by the way, you can buy all the clothes off season six, online right now.
NEWMAN: Also, she moved her arraignment up two days early so she wouldn`t miss out on filming her reality show, and complained about her
hair not being done and said, go to my website and buy season six jackets online.
GRACE: That`s not a good look. Guys, do you have that picture of Martha Stewart, who I love, by the way. And she made the bad choice of
taking a berken bag into court one day. Maybe the jury didn`t notice. But I think those things are like $1,000 to $4,000 for one pocketbook. Juries
don`t like that! By the way, I totally disagree with Martha Stewart going to jail. But Shayna Steinfeld, bankruptcy attorney. When you are more
worried about your hair and makeup, when you`re looking at a possible nearly 100 years behind bars, this video is from Lifetime, everybody.
[20:40:00]
Why are federal judges so ill when they find out you have lied under oath to them?
STEINFELD: Bankruptcy is about the honest but unfortunate debters, and it`s about financial disclosure, and the judge wants the honest
disclosure. They don`t want the lies, bankruptcy is not about -- bankruptcy is about truthful disclosure. So her lying is huge. The
indictment is about it being her not being truthful. It`s about disclosure. She did not disclose the truth. In the Chapter 11, she was
supposed to disclose.
GRACE: Shayna Steinfeld, who is a very well known bankruptcy attorney in the Atlanta jurisdiction, for my time as a law clerk, federal judges and
magistrates are appointed for life. They have a free rein. They can do whatever they want to. They turn into kind of like demigods in the court
system. And when somebody affronts them by lying to them, they don`t like it. And something you mentioned at the beginning, Shayna Steinfeld, is
bankruptcy is set up to not only pay off your creditors, but protect you too. You get to keep maybe your home, your jewelry, certain possessions.
You`re trying to protect it in this way, and to take advantage of that protection is really insult to injury, Shayna.
STEINFELD: It`s an insult to the system. It`s designed for the honest but unfortunate debtor, and it is designed to be a safety valve to
help people get out of debt, and when you have a debtor who is obviously becoming in a position to pay off her debt, she is supposed to disclose
what she had and pay off her debt. That`s the way it`s supposed to work.
GRACE: Alan Duke, what`s a potential sentence? What`s a max and a minimum?
DUKE: 20 counts, five years for each. We know nobody will get 100 years for this. But she will go -- you know, if she pleads guilty or is
convicted, she does face federal prison.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:46:00]
GRACE: Live, Washington township. A 32-year-old young mom torches the family home. Sets it on fire with the family inside. Including four
children, the grandparents. Why? To cover up her kidnapping her tot girl after she, mommy, loses custody.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors tell us what they believe was her motive for sparking the fire, while her parents and four children were
inside. Flames burst through the roof. One of the kids was taken.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Grabbed the youngest, they kidnapped her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Burt Barron with me, morning show host, WCTC, joining me out of New Brunswick. Burt, look at this woman! She sets the house on fire,
torches the house, with the family inside. Children, grandparents, so she can take her baby, kidnap her baby girl that she`s lost. She`s lost
custody. Burt Barron, why did she lose custody, to start with?
BURT BARRON: Well, there were allegations of abuse, Nancy. But I don`t care. As a mom, how can you possibly set fire to a home with your
own children and your own parents inside the house? This woman has huge problems, obviously.
GRACE: Wait a minute. These were her own parents? Burt Barron, these were her own parents that she set fire to the home?
BARRON: Yes. Her parents have custody of her four children. There are allegations of abuse against her and her husband. And when she pounded
on the door demanding her children, her father would not surrender them. She and her cousin attempt to burn down the house, Nancy. You burn down a
home for one reason and one reason only. And that --
GRACE: I can`t believe that. And you know how quickly you can die from smoke inhalation? Joining me is Tim Wilhelm, senior fire
investigator, Robson Forensic. Thank you for being with us. With little children like the ones in this home, and this happens at night while
they`re asleep. How quickly can a child die of smoke inhalation?
TIM WILHELM, ROBSON FORENSIC: That can happen very quickly, Nancy. You know, the toxic gases released as byproducts of the combustion will
overtake them and they`ll become in a very lethargic, almost like a drunk state and then they would lose consciousness.
GRACE: Seth Meyers joining me, Dr. Seth Meyers, clinical psychologist out of L.A. I am trying to understand the psychopathy behind this woman`s
movements. She loses custody of her children because of alleged abuse. Now they won`t let me say, because she abused her children. Because it
hasn`t been proved in a court of law. Now the mom is on the left. The cousin is on the right. It`s Lynnette Mcguire (ph) is the one that is
suspected of abusing her children. That has not been proved in a court of law yet. So Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation,
joining me. Dr. Seth Meyers, clinical psychologist out of L.A. I`m trying to under the psychopathy behind a mother setting fire to her home with all
these children asleep inside, and her own parents in there. So she can snatch the one little girl out.
KLAAS: You`re asking me, Nancy? I think that this woman is as dumb as she is dangerous. I can`t explain the psychology of somebody like this
at all. It makes absolutely no sense. But it`s certainly -- it certainly demonstrates why she should not have custody of any children.
GRACE: Seth Meyers, weigh in.
MEYERS: Yes. So in order to know whether she is truly a psychopath, we would need to test her to determine that. But what we can infer is that
this is --
GRACE: I didn`t say she was a psychopath. I was trying to understand the psychopathy behind her movements. I don`t know what she is.
[20:50:00]
I can tell you this much. What I think she is, is a felon arsonist. That`s what I think she is. But I`m trying to understand why she would be
willing to burn down a house in order to kidnap her child. Did she think that would help somehow?
MEYERS: So, the root of this thinking is that her children are her possessions. And, you know, when you`re a good parent, it`s not about
possession. You have your child and you take the best care possible of your child. This woman wasn`t thinking about how her children feel. This
woman wasn`t thinking about how this could scar them. This could be a massive psychological trauma they could carry with them the rest of her
life. For her, these were her possessions and somebody took them away and somebody was going to pay.
GRACE: What he said is true. Dr. Seth Meyers. Burt Barron, I don`t want them emotionally scarred. I don`t want that. You see the three
children in the home with their faces blurred right now. That`s from Halloween. But what I also don`t want them is dead. How does she try to
start the fire, with an accelerant?
BARRON: That`s still being investigated. Nancy, look at what went through this woman`s mind. I want my children out of there so desperately,
I will burn this home down and everybody in it unless I can have my kids. She was described by someone else on the panel as dumb and dangerous. I
would agree. I would not trust this woman to walk my dog. She is an absolute threat to society.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:56:00]
GRACE: Live, Fredericksburg, a 21-year-old beauty dead in her car 30 minutes from her own home. Homeowners come to inquire, thinking she`s
asleep at the wheel. They realize the girl is dead. In the days leading up to her death, Heather Ciccone (ph) complains about a female stalker. Is
there a break in the case?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can report that the cell phone is in our possession. We consider this a very big piece of evidence. The
investigation, I believe, still is going to have a successful outcome.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Captain Jeff Pierce joining us from the Spotsylvania County sheriff`s office. Captain, thank you so much for being with us. Our
viewers have so many questions. They are calling in and e-mailing. My first question is about searches you have done in the neighborhood. For
what?
JEFF PIERCE, POLICE CAPTAIN: Well, Nancy, there have been a couple of search warrants, and those warrants have been sealed by the courts at our
request and the request of the commonwealth attorney. The information that we`re trying to get, of course, is both informational and evidentiary.
They`ve been sealed as, I believe, the commonwealth attorney has said, due to the fact that this case is so sensitive and violent nature that anyone
that may be listed as a witness or even a defendant in this case later on could be in some jeopardy from --
GRACE: Well put.
PIERCE: That doesn`t want him or her to be discovered.
GRACE: Captain Jeff Pierce explaining why the search warrants have been sealed. Ted Schubel joining us, WFVA and WBQB, also with me Joe Scott
Morgan. What do you make, Joe Scott Morgan, of the injury itself?
MORGAN: What`s very compelling about this case, Nancy, it has been determined she was shot in the back of the head. She was in the forward
position in the vehicle. This leads me to believe that the potential might exist that the shooter was in the backseat. Contained area, rich in
forensic evidence.
GRACE: Right. Ted Schubel, WBQB. I`m wondering if any of these search warrants have anything to do with video surveillance?
SCHUBEL: That`s what police are hoping. That`s what we heard last week, Nancy, that the windshield, the back of the car, i heart you was
driving around town. That was Heather`s car, and police are hoping that someone will have seen that and will be able to place that in an area where
they can get video surveillance.
GRACE: Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert, the phone has been found. What can we learn from her cell phone?
LEVITAN: Nancy, it is pretty clear what police are doing here. We know that there are four different cell towers that serve that Piny Branch
Road area. We know that the perpetrators were there between 9:00 and 11:00. The police have clearly asked for a cell tower dump. They want to
know everybody that used that -- those four cell towers in the Piney Branch Road. That will give them a list of suspects and also a list of witnesses,
Nancy.
GRACE: Bill Levitan, you`re brilliant. That is a fantastic idea. A cell tower dump. Who was using cell phones in that area at the time of the
murder.
Let`s remember American hero, Maryland police officer Noah Leotta, 24, killed in the line of duty. Montgomery College grad, Montgomery County
police, supported drunk driving task force. Loved fitness. Parents Marcia and Richard. Sister, Shaina. Noah Leotta, American hero.
And tonight, special good night from friends of the show, Erin, Kim and Mandy. Aren`t they beautiful? Thanks to our guests but especially you
for being with us. I`m Nancy Grace signing off. See you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
