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Nancy Grace
Day Care Teacher Sentence for Killing Tot Reduced/Ex-Husband Tries to Run Down Wife After Family Court. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired December 21, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live to Iowa. Mommy gets a call from day care. Her 3-year-old little girl, Autumn, unresponsive after
falling down the stairs. 48 hours, Autumn is dead. Skull fracture, brain swelling -- the injuries don`t add up. Tonight, did 3-year-old Autumn`s
baby-sitter beat the child because the child would not take off her coat?
Bombshell tonight. The baby-sitter gets a sweetheart deal. That is wrong! And to top it all off, the judge steps in and cuts the baby-
sitter`s sentence in half!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A day care provider is accused of killing a little 3-year-old because she refused to take off her jacket.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say Rochelle Sapp later admitted that she threw the child to the floor after the girl refused to take off her coat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Little Autumn Elgersma`s death was ruled a homicide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And Cortland. Cops say a jilted ex-husband leaves family court, then goes berserk behind the wheel of his Ford pickup, smashing up
14 vehicles and a house, all while trying to run down his ex-wife in the parking lot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say a pickup truck driver damaged 14 vehicles and a house when he attempted to run over his ex-wife.
Authorities say it all unfolded as Southwick left the courthouse, reportedly screaming at his ex-wife as he followed her into the parking
lot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And Oklahoma, the mystery surrounding the disappearance of a young mother and nurse, Peggy McGuire (ph), who vanishes after reportedly
dropping off her 8-year-old little boy at school. 48 hours later, her Toyota truck found abandoned in a local parking lot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These days, it`s difficult for Betty Davis (ph) to breathe, let alone talk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was a loving, good person, caring. Her little boy was her world!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hoping words will drown out the pain, hoping Peggy will come home soon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, a Porsche-driving evangelical California Christian author wiggles into a creepy latex head mask to arm-rob a local movie
theater at gunpoint. At this hour, he`s claiming the Freemasons, the Scottish rite (ph), made him do it. That`s right, the Scottish rite, the
guys in the funny hats and the little cars that ride in parades that support Scottish rite hospitals? Somehow, this Christian evangelical
author has sucked (ph) the Scottish rite into his armed robbery plot. He`s getting a lump of coal for Christmas!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a world of bizarre crimes, a man allegedly holds up a movie theater armed with a BB gun, and he`s wearing a latex mask
on his face. As if that`s not enough, even cops are scratching their heads in disbelief when the suspect reveals his motive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Pilots for Christ, a nonprofit organization providing life-saving flights for critical patients.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, live to Iowa. Mommy gets a call from day care, her 3-year-old little girl, Autumn, is unresponsive after falling down the
stairs. 48 hours later, Autumn is dead, with a skull fracture, brain swelling. Well, the injuries, in my mind, don`t add up to a fall down the
stairs. Tonight, did 3-year-old Autumn`s baby-sitter beat the child because she would not take off her coat?
The baby-sitter gets a sweetheart deal. That is wrong! And to top it all off, tonight the judge steps in and cuts the baby-sitter`s sentence in
half.
Dennis Morrice, the news director at KLEM, I don`t understand it. Let`s start at the beginning. I`ll get to the judge in a minute, but let`s
start with what happened to little Autumn. What do we know about her injuries?
DENNIS MORRICE, KLEM (via telephone): Well, you`re exactly right, as you described them. They did have some head trauma, blunt trauma to the
head, injuries that were suffered. And as you mentioned, the day care provider, Rochelle Sapp, did admit that -- finally, that she did throw down
the little 3-year-old girl, which did result in a death.
Originally, Rochelle Sapp was to be charged with first degree murder. And then that was reduced to a plea agreement under child endangerment
resulting in death. And you`re also exactly correct in the fact that the judge, Judge Jacobson, who presided over this, originally sentenced
Rochelle Sapp, the day care provider, with a 100-year sentence.
[20:05:14]One year later, after that took place -- because Rochelle Sapp never did go to trial. She pleaded guilty, and that`s when the
original 100-year sentence was imposed. And as you indicated, one year later, Judge Jacobson is now a little bit of a surprise to a lot of people.
And no -- he has not given any actual reasoning as to why he did it, but he has cut the sentencing down from 100 years to 50 years.
GRACE: So if she is sentenced to 50 years, Dennis Morrice from KLEM, and she gets out early on parole, what, could she be in and out five to
seven years?
MORRICE: I think it`s about 17, I believe it would be. That is, of course, if she is granted the parole. And the little 3-year-old`s parents,
Autumn -- their parents have indicated that, you know, they were opposed to this, to the action. They asked the judge why the ruling, why the reduced
sentencing. Judge Jacobson did not give any real substantive answer to that.
One only can speculate that, you know, if he thought that this sentence, for whatever reason, might have been too harsh, and might be some
circumstances beyond just what we know on the surface level.
GRACE: I want to go to Chris Spargo, reporter with Dailymail.com. Chris Spargo, thank you for being with us. I don`t understand this Judge
Edward Jacobson deciding all on his own to cut the sentence in half?
CHRIS SPARGO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): Yes, that`s right. You apparently have a year where you can do this. Even though she signed a
plea agreement and they agreed to everything, he said that she`d been a model prisoner, she was a teacher and she had no prior record, and this
maybe came into consideration when he did this.
GRACE: OK, you know what? You just rattled that off your tongue like somehow, her being a model prisoner makes it OK. You know what? It`s not
OK. Because Chris Spargo, now I want you in detail to explain to me what happened to Autumn and why her life is worth, what, 15 to 17 years max?
Tell me, Spargo. What happened?
SPARGO: So apparently, when she wept in that day, she wasn`t taking off her coat, and she -- Sapp threw her on the ground, slammed her. Her
head suffered a major injury, a fractured skull, a brain trauma, and that is eventually what she died from.
GRACE: You know what? Ashley Willcott is joining me, certified child welfare law specialist. That had to be some throw to the ground. I don`t
believe that for a minute, that a child that you throw to the ground -- the child is 3 years old.
How far do you throw them, three feet? So that gives her such a traumatic head injury, it fractures her skull and her brain starts swelling
until she dies? The brain is essentially trapped in the skull, and she dies from brain hemorrhage. That`s why she died.
That did not happen from her being knocked over on the ground. That didn`t happen, Ashley Willcott. That is a lie.
ASHLEY WILLCOTT, CERTIFIED CHILD WELFARE LAW SPECIALIST: Good evening, Nancy. Yes, not only that, there were three prior incidents.
There were three prior physical injuries caused by this woman. And so you can`t fail to take that into account. This was not a one-time incident,
three prior incidents in the last eight months of physical abuse by this woman of this child.
GRACE: Explain the three prior incidents, Ashley Willcott. Ashley joining us, certified child welfare law specialist. Could you describe
those, please? Maybe the judge forgot about them, Ashley.
WILLCOTT: Well, according to the evidence into the record, there were cut lips, black eyes, and according to the mother of the child, this woman
explained those away and the mother believed the explanations and trusted her and said, OK, these were things that happened and there were plausible
explanations. There weren`t. There was child abuse of this child.
GRACE: So if this had happened to an adult, Ashley -- I saw this over and over and over when I was prosecuting in inner city Atlanta for 10
years. When it is a child victim, people treat the case more lightly. You get a lighter sentence. You get involuntary versus voluntary or
premeditated murder because the child doesn`t have a voice. Nobody is speaking for the child.
Sure, yes, you know what? Why don`t you just give her straight probation, Judge Edward Jacobson? I don`t understand this, Ashley.
WILLCOTT: I don`t either. And here`s the thing that bothers me most. I was a trial attorney for 20 years. And nowhere in his short order that
he changes the sentence of this defendant does he address two things. Number one, any remorse by this defendant. And number two, any explanation
of what happened or anything else that she`s done to get treatment for the four injuries and the resulting death.
[20:10:04]GRACE: Treatment? Treatment, shmeatment! I don`t care about her getting treatment! She killed this baby because -- Dr. Daniel
Bober, forensic psychiatrist, she says because the baby wouldn`t take its coat off. The little girl is 3 years old. For all I know, that`s her
favorite coat.
My daughter, Lucy, has a lime green sweater. True, I gave it to her. It`s my fault. With flowers on it. She wears it with everything. She
wore it with her red Christmas dress. She wears it with everything. I`m not going to throw her down on the ground and jerk it off of her. Let her
wear it! Who cares?
DR. DANIEL BOBER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Nancy, the fact that she had the prior incidents certainly puts this in a very different context. It
certainly looks a lot more culpable when you put it -- you know, when you look at the case through that lens, that she`s done this before.
GRACE: You know what, Spargo, Dailymail.com, this judge, Edward Jacobson, he makes me want to vomit. Vomit! What do you know about him,
Spargo?
SPARGO: Not much. He`s not really saying much about any of this. And the family is voicing their disappointment, but he`s keeping quiet. He
said that this is just something that he can do, and that`s what he`s decided to do by decreasing the sentence.
GRACE: OK, you know what he`s doing, Justin Freiman? He`s waiting, hoping all of this dies down before his next election. Let`s see, he`s a
trial judge, so probably has, what, a four to six-year term, right?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Nancy, he was reelected in 2014. That term expires in 2020.
GRACE: Give me the exact jurisdiction. I mean, I have the general area. But what is the exact jurisdiction?
FREIMAN: That is district 3B in Iowa, district 3B.
GRACE: You know what, Liz? While I`m talking to Justin, can you get me the phone number and e-mail of guy, this Judge Edward Jacobson? And who
is the governor? Was this guy appointed, Justin Freiman, or did the people unknowingly elect this menace to the bench?
FREIMAN: He was elected by a majority vote.
GRACE: OK, here we go with the screen. If you want to voice your disgust, as we are, about the way this child, Autumn Elgersma, has been
treated -- she died of skull fracture and brain injury, blunt force head injury, out of Orange City, Iowa -- Orange City, Iowa. Edward Jacobson,
elected to the bench, decides on his own to let her killer have a reduced sentence, reduced by 50 percent. He needs to be thrown off the bench!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:16:38]GRACE: Live to Cortland. Police say a jilted ex-husband leaves family court, and then -- of all places, family court -- he goes
berserk behind the wheel of his Ford pickup, smashing up 14 vehicles and a house, all while trying to run down his ex-wife in the parking lot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say David Southwick damaged 14 vehicles and a house when he attempted to run over his ex-wife in the parking lot.
Police describe Southwick as a tad bit upset.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Greg Fry, news director, WHCU. Greg, thank you so much for being with us. Of all places, to try to run your wife down in the parking
lot at the courthouse, at family court. What happened?
GREG FRY, WHCU (via telephone): Yes, it`s very surprising. So there was a family court hearing. It was early in the morning, just after about
9:30. And on the way out, police had told us that David Southwick apparently had started berating his wife and was yelling at her on their
way out of the courthouse.
And in the parking lot, she attempted to walk away from him, and that`s when he hopped in his truck and decided, according to police, that
he was going to try and drive at her and was going to try and hit her with his truck.
GRACE: Everybody, you`re seeing the scene of the destruction. But that`s not all. There were 14 vehicles he smashed up, and somehow, he
managed to smash up a house, as well, all the while trying to run down his ex-wife right there in the parking lot.
Joining me right now, in addition to Greg Fry, WHCU, a special guest, Chief F. Michael Catalano. Chief, thank you for being with us.
CHIEF F. MICHAEL CATALANO, CORTLAND (via telephone): You`re welcome.
GRACE: Chief, you know what? It seems like almost every day, I say I`ve never seen anything like it. But this one really takes the cake.
This husband is in court, in family court. But Chief Catalano, I understand he`s in court for child support. What went wrong?
CATALANO: Well, we`re not exactly sure. He was in custody by the time our officers got there. And apparently, he just didn`t have a good
day in family court, and he was angry when he left, angry at his wife or ex-wife.
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, was it all about child support?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, it appears actually to be some type of support between the two of them because after
court was over, the ex-wife said to Southwick on the way out, It must be nice to have a new plow for your truck but not be able to pay support, and
that is what set him off.
GRACE: OK. So he bought a new plow for his pickup, and he won`t pay his child support. Is that what it was about, Chief Catalano?
CATALANO: I`m not aware if it exactly was child support, though there was some issue over medical insurance, I believe.
GRACE: OK, guys. It`s not the first time death by vehicle. Look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mother of two little girls kills her husband and says it was an accident. Pete Gonzalez (ph) was walking alongside an
Oklahoma road when he was run over by a vehicle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Over a broken cell phone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was run over and crushed by the SUV!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ran him over.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Family claims they heard the Lincoln`s tires squealing!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hit the woman, then backed up and ran over her again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was all (INAUDIBLE) stopped (INAUDIBLE) and stopped.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say Ahn (ph) accelerated, hit her, then reversed, hit her again and then yet again.
[20:20:05]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Megan Pope (ph) was run over by her boyfriend, driving a Ford F-150 pickup.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her boyfriend, Brian Feltman (ph), intentionally crashed into her as she walked down the street.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say a pickup truck driver damaged 14 vehicles and a house when he attempted to run over his ex-wife.
Authorities say it all unfolded as Southwick left the courthouse, reportedly screaming at his ex-wife as he followed her into the parking
lot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So this guy leaves family court and tries to mow down his wife there in the parking lot. Doing that, he manages to wreck 14 cars and a
house.
So Matt Zarrell, how did he manage to wreck a house, as well?
ZARRELL: Well, he drove the car into the porch of a house that`s divided into apartments that are next to the parking lot. A resident in
the building, Nancy, was actually sleeping at the time and said he felt the building shake when Southwick ran into it.
[20:25:06]At one point, Southwick got out of his truck and said something like, I f-ing give up, and he started walking towards the
sheriff`s office, and then took him in. But one thing to note, Nancy, in one of the cars that he hit, there was a 3-year-old child inside the car.
GRACE: What was the woman, the wife, diving and hiding behind the cars and between the cars?
ZARRELL: Yes, she was. And other witnesses heard Southwick yell at his wife, I`m going to f-ing kill you.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me out of Atlanta, Parag Shah, and out of Maryland, and defense attorney Robin Ficker. OK, Ficker, What`s
your defense?
ROBIN FICKER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Chill out, Nancy. We know that domestic relations can be disconcerting. His foot hit the accelerator
instead of the brake. He didn`t mean to hurt anybody.
GRACE: Chill out. Yes, I`ve heard that on a scooby doo (ph), but I don`t think that it is a -- an accepted legal objection. You know, hit the
gas by accident maybe for one car, but not 14, Parag Shah, not 14. Let`s see the scene, please. Parag Shah, are you going to give me a defense?
PARAG SHAH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I`ll tell you the defense. Women know how to drive men crazy, and she knew exactly what to do to drive him
crazy, and he went crazy. He lost his cool. So give him some probation, let him pay it back, let him take anger management, and let`s be done with
this.
GRACE: You know, Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist joining me out of Miami. Dr. Bober, I would almost find Parag Shah`s comment
laughable, except that in addition to prosecuting felonies for 10 years, I also worked at the battered women`s center as a volunteer on the hotline
for about nine years.
And that is the attitude toward -- about abuse on women that keeps it a joke, a big joke, beating women until they`re dead, terrifying them in
their own homes. That is the attitude that enables domestic violence, what we just heard from the defense lawyers.
BOBER: I agree with you, Nancy. Low self-esteem is rampant among women in this country, and there is a culture of abuse. And things tend to
be swept under the rug with these types of cases. And I can tell you as a forensic psychiatrist...
GRACE: I mean, when he said, Dr. Bober -- when Parag Shah says she drove him crazy, that`s why this happened. She made him do it.
BOBER: Right. It`s a really ridiculous statement, and it just totally dismisses her feelings as a woman and as a human being, for that
matter. These types of cases, especially child custody cases, divorce cases, have so much rage in them, people just get totally out of control.
So I`ve seen this happen actually time and time again in my practice.
GRACE: You know, I`ll never forget, Matt Zarrell, one of the first years that I had been on -- working on the battered women`s hotline, a man
landed his wife in the hospital. He asked for Mexican food, and she had cooked tacos instead of enchiladas, or vice versa. And there were people
there. They had guests over from work.
He beat her to a pulp, and she landed in the hospital because of it. And his comment was, She didn`t do what I asked her. She brought this
about. Tell me exactly the extent of the damage, Matt Zarrell.
ZARRELL: OK. So you`ve got more than $19,000 in damage. You have the ex-wife was not injured, but there were others who were in one of the
cars that suffered injuries to their arm and leg. You had a 3-year-old child who could have been very seriously injured, as well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:33:00]
GRACE: Live to Oklahoma. The mystery surrounding the disappearance of a young mother and nurse, Peggy McGuire, who vanishes after reportedly
dropping off her 8-year-old little boy at school. 48 short hours later, her Toyota truck found abandoned in a local parking lot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: McGuire, a nurse at Willington Hills nursing center disappeared after dropping her 8-year-old son off at school.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her little boy was her world. She was like my backbone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Scott Mitchell, talk show host, KOKC, something is very, very wrong here. This woman, Peggy McGuire, would never, ever have left her
child. What do we know?
SCOTT MITCHELL, KOKC: Well, we know the trail has gone cold. There are a lot of family members in Oklahoma from around the country looking.
The state bureau of investigation got on the case a few days ago. But people -- there`s not much evidence -- nothing new since about the 18th day
of November.
GRACE: You know what, I`m having a hard time believing there`s no evidence. I agree with you, Scott Mitchell, KOKC. There is no evidence
that they found. But I`m not buying this. You know, we`re just showing the Icehouse bar where a car was found. She didn`t even drink. She was a
teetotaler and proud of it. Joe Scott Morgan joining me, certified death investigator, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joe
Scott, something is not right here. This woman did not leave on her own volition. She has not gone off with some man, which is what everybody
always claims. This is wrong. Something stinks.
JOE SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yes, you`re absolutely right, Nancy. You know, we think about evidence in the sense
that maybe broadly, we can see something with an unaided eye. There is an entire world here that needs to be explored. I`m thinking about things
like skin cells, I`m thinking about more specifically DNA at both her home, inside of her vehicle.
[20:35:00]
There has to be connectivity between individuals that -- who commonly occupy these spaces and those that don`t. What we`re looking for is those
that don`t. Those that should not be in the home. Those that should not be in the car. That`s where this should begin.
GRACE: Let`s talk about her vehicle. Uh-oh. Hold on. I`m being joined right now by her cousin, Elizabeth Leeder. Elizabeth, thank you so
much for being with us.
ELIZABETH LEEDER, COUSIN: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
GRACE: Tell me about Peggy. What kind of person is she? When did you last speak to her?
LEEDER: I last spoke to her Monday morning, about 8:30 via text. We work together. And I had asked her -- we are both nurses at a local
nursing home. And I asked her a patient-specific question, and she answered.
GRACE: You know, you`re seeing shots right now of Peggy McGuire. She`s just 28 years old. And she is a mother of one. She absolutely would
not have left that child. We need your help. Help us find Peggy. With me, a cousin that she loved very much and that she worked with. Elizabeth
Leeder is joining me out of Euphala (ph), Oklahoma. I want to go over what we know of her last movements. Now, you spoke to her the night before she
goes missing, correct?
LEEDER: Yes, Sunday night. I spoke to her about 8:00 at work. Everything was fine. Nothing out of the norm. She was at work, and doing
her job.
GRACE: Who took care of the baby boy when she is at work?
LEEDER: The little boy`s dad.
GRACE: Okay. So does she go pick the boy up from daddy`s that night?
LEEDER: That is -- I do not know. I do not know. I assume so.
GRACE: Was that her normal practice and routine?
LEEDER: Yes.
GRACE: So the boy lived with her, and he was just visiting daddy while she works?
LEEDER: Yes.
GRACE: Okay. So did the boy make it to school the next day?
LEEDER: Yes.
GRACE: Who took him?
LEEDER: She did. Like she did every day.
GRACE: She took him to school, she drove him to school. Does she normally pick him up, as well?
LEEDER: Yes, ma`am, every day.
GRACE: So that day she takes him to school and drops him off, is that correct?
LEEDER: Yes.
GRACE: Who picked him up?
LEEDER: Dad.
GRACE: Why? Why -- how did he know to pick him up?
LEEDER: Not sure.
GRACE: Interesting.
LEEDER: That`s a good question.
GRACE: Did the school call the dad and say, hey, nobody is here to pick up your son? Or did he just go pick him up because he felt like it
that day?
LEEDER: Good question.
GRACE: What was the nature of their relationship?
LEEDER: They were not together. Not together.
GRACE: Have they ever been married?
LEEDER: No.
GRACE: Question. What do you know about this place, this Icehouse bar? She was a teetotaler, right?
LEEDER: Yes. She did not drink. She didn`t go to that bar. That`s (inaudible). Normally we know a lot of people from there, but that`s
nowhere her or either once would have ever hung out.
GRACE: Wait a minute. This place has video surveillance. It`s even got a sign. This property under 24-hour video surveillance. Who dropped
her car off? What about that?
LEEDER: Yes. Good question.
GRACE: Well, I`m asking you. What do you know about it? Have you asked the cops?
LEEDER: Yes. Yes, I have.
GRACE: Hold on. We`re showing the video right now. What can we learn? What do we know about this? I keep showing it, Liz. Stacy, what
do we know?
NEWMAN: We know there is a mystery man who is seen pulling in on that surveillance video you`re telling us about. Gets out of the car and walks
away. But what the problem is, is the video is so grainy, and there`s a storm. Now Oklahoma state investigators have to enhance the video to find
out who this mystery man is.
GRACE: Is he driving her vehicle?
NEWMAN: He is driving her truck.
GRACE: Uh-huh. Okay. Hold on. Liz, if you don`t mind, back it up for me. Matt is telling me in my ear, look to the right. Look to the
right. There he is, right there. You can barely make it out. Barely -- somebody was in her car, her vehicle. It`s a truck. Somebody is in her
truck. She is gone. At this point. They take the truck. Watch where they park it, on the other side of that vehicle. And you see a perp
walking away from the vehicle. At that time, she is gone. Scott Mitchell, KOKC. What time do we believe the perp left her truck there?
MITCHELL: We think about 5:00 a.m., Nancy. And now the state bureau of investigations processed it. So a lot of testing of that truck going
on. Somebody ought to know something when they see that video. Somebody knows something.
GRACE: Well, let me ask you this, Scott Mitchell, KOKC. Why did the dad go pick up the son that day? Did the school alert him nobody had
picked the boy up?
MITCHELL: Well, there`s just some basic fundamental investigation questions have to be had.
[20:40:00]
And not a lot of investigative reporters in that part of the state. So there`s a lot of questions have to be asked still. Nobody really knows,
and that`s a great big if.
GRACE: Everybody, nobody has been named a suspect or a person of interest in this case. For all I know, the mom didn`t come pick the boy
up, and they called the dad to come pick him up as the next of kin. This is what I do know. Peggy McGuire would never have left her child behind.
We`re talking about Eufaula, Oklahoma. Tip line, 800-522-8017. And there is a reward of nearly $20,000.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:45:00]
GRACE: Live. A Porsche driving evangelical Christian author wiggles into a creepy latex head mask to arm rob a local movie theater at gunpoint.
Tonight he`s claiming the free masons, the Scottish rite, made him do it. You know who the Scottish rite are, don`t you? The guys in the funny hats
and the little cars, and they ride in parades, and they 100 percent support Scottish Rite children`s hospitals? Somehow this Christian evangelical
author has sucked the Scottish Rite into his armed robbery plot. He`s getting a lump of coal for Christmas.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It sounds like a plot line only Hollywood could come up with. But it did happen at a movie theater. A man drives up in
his Porsche 911, and then, armed with bb gun and wearing a latex mask, orders the assistant manager to hand over the cash box.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host. Dave, thank you for being with us. Let`s start with the robbery, and then we`ll
get into -- the armed robbery. Somebody could have been killed, for Pete`s sake, and then we`ll get into the fact that he`s blaming the free masons.
Let`s start with the robbery. What happened?
DAVE MACK, SYNDICATED TALK SHOW HOST: All right. In the middle of the day, just before 12:00 noon, this idiot, Britton Clayton Traylor, goes
into a movie theater and tries to hold up an assistant manager. Understand, you did say somebody could have been killed. He was using a bb
gun. He might have been the one killed, because the assistant manager follows him out, they tackle him, and then hold him down until the cops can
arrive.
GRACE: You know, Greg Durr is joining me now, from Milbrooke, Alabama, the grandmaster of the free masons of Alabama. Greg, I highly
respect your organization, and what -- not only the free masons, but what the Scottish rite do for children all over this country that cannot afford
to pay their hospital bills, right? There are Scottish rite hospitals for them. How do you respond to this Christian evangelical author blaming the
free masons?
GREG DURR, GRANDMASTER, FREE MASONS OF ALABAMA: Well, this is one of the most ridiculous things I`ve ever heard of. And why he would want to
blame us or even indicate that he would be a member of our organization, we would tolerate nothing of this. And at no time would we ever encourage,
promote in any kind of initiation to commit a crime of any type, for any reason. So this is -- it`s just baffling and it`s just plum ridiculous.
GRACE: You know, let`s talk about it. Michael Christian, what does he say -- what is his excuse for arm robbing a theater? First of all, why
did he pick a theater to arm rob it? That`s a whole another can of worms. Let`s talk about him blaming the free masons.
CHRISTIAN: Nancy, he said he had been encouraged to do it because he was trying to reach a higher level of initiation in the free masons. That
was part of his initiation, to rob a theater.
GRACE: Okay, you know what, I`ve never heard of anything like it in my whole life. What do the free masons stand for, Greg Durr?
DURR: Well, the free masons stand for -- we are a fraternity of men that believe in God and believe in being serviceable to our community, and
being serviceable to the less fortunate. And we give out charity every day, an amount of somewhere around a little over $2 million. To be a
freemason, and, you know, we have a lot of independent bodies of the masons. But you`ve got to be a freemason first. You have the Scottish
rite, you have the York rite, you have the Shriners, and all of us participate in these events, fund-raisings and charitable things for the
children`s hospital. It just hadn`t been but the first week of December, my organization, the one that I belong to, was involved in donating 400
pairs of shoes and socks to underprivileged children that didn`t have anything. You know, so for him to claim that he was reaching a higher
level in masonry is just absurd. I don`t know why he would want to do that.
GRACE: Michael Christian, tell me how the robbery went down. How did it all happen?
CHRISTIAN: He went into the theater, Nancy, with this bb gun that looked like a real gun. He told the assistant manager to go into the
office, open a safe. He got over $9,000 out of it. But when he went to leave, to return to his Porsche out in the parking lot, the assistant
manager accompanied him, tripped him from behind, and then a good samaritan who was leaving a gym next door saw it all go down, and he went over and
helped the assistant manager subdue this guy until the cops could get there.
GRACE: What can you tell me about him? Britton Clayton Traylor, age 33. He`s a Christian author under the name Clayton Traylor. What kind of
books does he write? What are his books?
[20:50:00]
CHRISTIAN: He`s written as you say under the name of Clayton Traylor, he has written two books that we know of. One is called "Shining the
Light, Exposing the Truth," and one is called "Exposing the Truth: The New Age Movement." Basically they are kind of conspiracy or warnings about
what he believes is the coming new world order--
GRACE: I thought this was Christian evangelical. Let me see those books again. You`re telling us conspiracy books? That`s not Christian
evangelical.
CHRISTIAN: Apocalyptic type conspiracy books. He warns about what he calls the Luciferian agenda of this what he claims is a new world order
thing.
GRACE: I want to put the book back up. I don`t know what you are saying? Dave Mack, what is he saying, the Luciferian? I guess that is
Lucifer, the devil. Agenda? What are his books about? He sounds like a nut.
MACK: Nancy, what it is is you have a lot of end times prophesy people who have made a lot of money by predicting the end times and the new
world order. It all goes back to, we are talking centuries of all this kind of weird stuff that this guy talks about. His pact with the masons,
his claim is that free masonry is a part of the new world order, and he was using this to push his agenda, which is to try to sell books that nobody
wants to buy because they are crazy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:55:00]
GRACE: Pilots for Christ, a nonprofit organization provides life- saving flights for critical patients.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are Pilots for Christ. We are here in Phoenix and we are going to Tucson for our special (inaudible) therapy. We
had a great flight and we are looking forward to a great trip.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was from Pilots for Christ`s Facebook page. Joining me right now is Rosalyn Sales, with Pilots for Christ. Rosalyn, thank you for
being with us.
ROSALYN SALES, PR DIRECTOR, PILOTS FOR CHRIST: Thank you so much, Nancy, for having us.
GRACE: I want to understand what Pilots for Christ do?
SALES: We fly time-critical patients throughout the country and don`t charge a dime for it. We do it to show the love of Christ.
GRACE: And how did you get started?
SALES: It started in 1994 as a chapter of Pilots for Christ International. Two pilots decided they wanted to do this, and it got
started and they bought an airplane and we have been going ever since.
GRACE: How long have you been working with Pilots for Christ?
SALES: I have been with the organization for two years.
GRACE: What type of patients do you fly around?
SALES: The majority of patients that we fly are cancer patients. We average two to three flights a week from our home base of Monroeville,
Alabama, and we cover the southeast, but we average two to three flights a week to Houston, Texas, out to MD Anderson, because cancer is so prevalent
right now. The second most frequent flight is to Saint Jude`s in Memphis, and then from there is the Mayo clinics for specialized care.
GRACE: With me is Rosalyn Sales, the PR director of Pilots for Christ, who give their time and their energy to flying critically ill
patients for free. With me is Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator. How critical is this type of service?
MORGAN: It`s unfathomable as far as the benefit. Right now, I just want to say, I have got a family member that is dying of cancer, and she
has been fighting this battle for a long time and going to MD Anderson, and it`s because of people like Pilots for Christ that reach out to people that
don`t have the means that can transport them. You can`t put a value on this. There are so many people that are out there hurting.
GRACE: Joe Scott, our friend of the show, Erin Dejora (ph), is fighting cancer, a brutal and aggressive cancer at MD Anderson. She has
been away from her home, from her children now since July. And it`s been two weeks to travel. And there`s no way that she could have gone through
the airport and been exposed to all those germs and everything else and lived. If she gets sick, she will die. She has no ability, no immune
system whatsoever, to fight anything.
There is Erin right there with her daughter. She has a twin boy and girl. They contacted Pilots for Christ and they said, sure. We will help
you.
I want to go back to Rosalyn Sales, the PR director for Pilots for Christ. When you work with these people and you help them get back to
their family, and they are facing death. They are looking down the wrong end of the barrel straight at death every day, fighting as you say, mostly
cancer. What have you learned?
SALES: I have learned that there are some tremendously strong people out there with tremendous faith in our savior, Jesus Christ. It is a
humbling and amazing thing to watch. They are stronger than we are in their battle. They make us better people just having an opportunity to be
around them and to be able to share what we get to share with them.
GRACE: With me is Rosalyn Sales, the PR director for Pilots for Christ, and on behalf of all the patients you transport, thank you.
SALES: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: Let`s remember American hero Army Staff Sergeant Keith Bennett, just 32, Holdcliff (ph), Pennsylvania, dreamed of being a cop,
loved music, his red motorcycle, pizza. Parents Harry and Carolyn, sister Tina. Keith Bennett, American hero.
Thanks to our guests and especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow night at 8:00 sharp Eastern. And
until then, good night, friend.
END
