Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Netflix and the Teresa Halbach Murder. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired January 04, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A missing photographer, 25-year-old Teresa Halbach, bone and teeth found on the property of Steven
Avery, so badly burned, the most innovative advanced DNA testing needed.
Bombshell tonight. After Netflix does a so-called documentary on Teresa`s murder to reel in viewers, convincing them Avery and his nephew
are actually innocent in Teresa`s brutal death, believe it or not, nearly 200,000 viewers petition the White House after seeing this Netflix
documentary, demanding these two brutal convicted killers be set free?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Steven, everybody`s listening. What do you want to say today?
STEVEN AVERY, CONVICTED OF MURDER: I`m innocent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Making a Murderer." It`s the latest binge- watching obsession on Netflix. Avery and his nephew were arrested. Both were convicted, this time for the murder of a young woman, Teresa Halbach.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Avery`s blood is found inside of Teresa Halbach`s vehicle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That from "Making a Murderer" by Netflix.
And live, Texas suburbs. A rich kid gets drunk and high on weed and Xanax, then mows down four people dead, leaving a fifth completely
paralyzed for life, a sixth with devastating internal injuries. He gets straight probation for killing four people, a sweetheart deal including no
jail time. The DUI four-time killer allegedly then caught on video playing beer pong. A warrant issued for his arrest, then he and his mother, of all
people, go missing.
Breaking tonight. Couch alters his appearance, as we predicted, dying his hair and mustache black, and fleeing to Mexico with his mommy, the two
busted ordering pizza on a cellphone tracked by police, reports Couch at a local strip club and Mommy has to pay the tab just before the bust goes
down. But tonight, why hasn`t Ethan Couch been brought back home for a date with Lady Justice?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Ethan Couch was captured on the streets of Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, with dark hair and dark goatee, Texas authorities
say the 18-year-old had the look of someone on the run trying to change his appearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Tonya Couch returns to the United States, she will face that felony charge of interfering with the apprehension...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s from "On-Scene TV (ph)."
And tonight, superstar icon Madonna`s custody battle over son, Rocco, threatens to bottle over as Madonna`s ex, British movie director Guy
Ritchie, reportedly lawyers up to take on Madonna, son Rocco refusing to come home to Mommy, blocking her from his Instagram, defecting from
Madonna`s "Rebel Heart" tour. He had been traveling with her for months. Will ex Guy Ritchie and Madonna`s own son, Rocco, defy a court order to
come home to mommy Madonna in the U.S.?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Madonna`s son, Rocco, is being ordered back to New York by a Manhattan court. The judgment says he has to return home
with his mother. Rocco is apparently tired of being on tour with Madonna.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. A missing photographer, 25-year-old Teresa Halbach, bone and teeth found on the property of Steven Avery, so badly
burned, the most innovative and advanced DNA testing needed.
Bombshell tonight. Enter Netflix Entertainment. Netflix decides to do a documentary on Teresa Halbach`s murder to reel in millions of viewers
and convince them that Avery and his nephew, Brendan Dassey, are actually innocent in the brutal rape and murder of Teresa Halbach.
Believe it or not, as of tonight, nearly 200,000 Netflix viewers petition the White House demanding these two brutal convicted killers be
set free -- yes, be set free!
I want to first go to Ken Kratz, former Calumet County district attorney, and Sheriff Robert Hermann, the Manitowoc County sheriff`s
office.
[20:05:05]Guys, thank you for being with me. I am absolutely in shock. I remember when you guys were running down this murder, were trying
to find her, were trying to find out what happened when her bones are discovered in this burn pit in the back of Avery`s garage, as he called it.
He was selling a car or vehicle, wasn`t he, Ken, and he was going to have it in "Auto Trader" or auto dealer and she -- he requested her to come
out and take a picture of it. Is that how it went down, Ken?
KEN KRATZ, FMR. CALUMET COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY (via telephone): That`s right, Nancy. He was already at the property. He had already had
Teresa Halbach to the property on six prior occasions, and on October 31st, the day Teresa was killed, he called "Auto Trader" magazine and asked for
them to send, quote, "the same girl" who had been here previously. So this isn`t this young woman just happening onto the property. He had targeted
her.
GRACE: And another thing. To Sheriff Robert Hermann, the Manitowoc County sheriff. Sheriff, to both of you, I want to thank you for being
with me because I believe what Netflix has done here is a total miscarriage of justice. And now nearly a quarter million people have petitioned the
White House to let this killer go?
Isn`t it true, Sheriff Hermann, that they are now suggesting and claiming that police, law enforcement, planted his and her blood? Isn`t
that true?
SHERIFF ROBERT HERMANN, MANITOWOC COUNTY (via telephone): That`s correct. Law enforcement has been targeted in this Netflix video, and
that`s the claim that we planted it and it`s...
GRACE: I`m sick!
HERMANN: ... totally wrong.
GRACE: I want you to take a listen to what Netflix is selling. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVEN AVERY, CONVICTED OF MURDER: Now there`s a chance that the truth will come out. I want everybody to know I`m innocent. So that`s all
I`m asking for.
They won`t look at nobody else. They`re paying all their attention to me. And they shouldn`t be doing that. That`s what they did before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Oh, really, Avery? Maybe it`s because you lured her to your garage and her bones were found in a burn pit in your back yard.
What you saw was "Making a Murderer" from Netflix.
I want to go out to Matt Zarrell. Could you jog Netflix`s memory about what the facts really are, Matt?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes. So Teresa was last seen on Halloween 2005 by Avery`s nephew outside Avery`s trailer,
located at the family salvage yard. Three days later, her mother reports her missing. They start searching. They search the Avery salvage yard,
and they discover her car. Her car is hidden by brush and car parts in the salvage yard. It`s covered by the hood of another vehicle.
Her cremated remains were just steps away from his trailer. They were identified through DNA. Fingerprint -- forensic evidence, including
Avery`s blood, was found inside Teresa`s car. Her DNA was found and a bullet fragment found inside his home. They linked the bullet fragment to
a gun found in Avery`s home, as well as evidence showing that Teresa was there in the moments before her death.
GRACE: And isn`t it true, Steve Helling, senior writer with "People" magazine -- isn`t it true -- and now, we just heard Matt Zarrell say that
her, Teresa Halbach`s, car was found at the back end of his property. The hood had been taken off and another hood put on it. And some of the DNA --
let me see, Steve Helling, please. And some of the -- yes, oh, that`s good. That`s good. Thank you, Liz, because that`s the vehicle we`re
talking about.
Some of the DNA that was found was actually under her hood. It was his DNA and it was sweat, and it was sweat, I`m telling you, Steve Helling,
from when he was out there changing the hood out, fastening it in place so nobody would recognize her car.
And now Netflix is saying, along with this convicted killer, that somebody planted his sweat under her hood? Really?
STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE": That would be a very hard thing to plant, Nancy. I don`t know how you plant somebody`s sweat underneath the hood of
a car. But the thing that`s most important about that is that that`s not just -- you know, that doesn`t just happen by touching a car or anything
like that. That`s inside, underneath the hood, which certainly makes it seem as though he had been under the hood, as well. So this is not
insignificant evidence.
GRACE: Not at all. With me, Steve Helling from "People" magazine.
Another unusual twist in the case. At the time that everyone was looking for Teresa Halbach, we got Avery to come on our show and I grilled
him. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:10:10]GRACE: Steven, I understand that Teresa came to your auto salvage lot to take photos for the "Auto Trader," correct?
STEVEN AVERY, CONVICTED OF MURDER: Yes, she did. She came down by me.
GRACE: OK. And Steven, it`s my understanding that also, you stated that you saw her car leave.
AVERY: Yes, I did.
GRACE: About what time?
AVERY: Between -- she was there between 2:00 and 2:30.
GRACE: 2:30 in the afternoon. OK, Steven, how is it that her car could get all the way back in this pit area, where there is -- well, I
believe we`re showing it right now. I mean, wouldn`t she have to pass back by the office again?
AVERY: Well, on the outskirts of the office. Otherwise, back by me or back by (INAUDIBLE) pit in the corner is all open.
GRACE: It`s all open.
AVERY: Yes. Anybody can drive in there.
GRACE: Mr. Avery, did you see anyone else come in, anyone unusual that didn`t belong there?
AVERY: Well, Thursday night, me and my brother had to go to Menard`s and pick up some wood with the flatbed, and I seen taillights back by me.
Wasn`t supposed to be. We turned around and we went back there (INAUDIBLE) on the side. And I took the flashlight out of the flatbed...
GRACE: OK.
AVERY: ... and I looked around by me and behind me, but I didn`t see nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, defense attorney Alex Sanchez joining us out of New York, Randy Kessler, defense attorney out of Atlanta.
OK, Alex Sanchez, now, that is not some airbrushed, edited version of what the convicted killer, Steven Avery, had to say. That was me and him
talking before he was busted. His story is that she comes from "Auto Trader" to his place to take a picture of his vehicle. He had reeled her
out there, like, six times.
That day, he pretended to be somebody else to get her back out there and asked for her specifically to come in. She goes out there. And his
story is she left after 30 minutes, but that somehow, mysteriously, somebody else kills her and brings her vehicle back onto his lot to frame
him for murder, Alex.
How can you fight that? How can Netflix possibly say that he is innocent?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I don`t think that you can separate this case from the last case he was involved with.
Remember, he spent 18 years in jail for a rape/murder that he did not commit, that was proven that he didn`t commit because the DNA was matched
to somebody else. And the same police officers that were involved in the last case were -- some of them were involved in the information of this
case.
So I don`t think it`s absolutely out of this world that he has some serious questions whether or not...
GRACE: That`s not what I asked you.
SANCHEZ: ... there were some police officers that have it out for him.
GRACE: I didn`t ask you, did some police officers have it out for him.
SANCHEZ: Well, that`s his...
GRACE: Randy Kessler...
SANCHEZ: That is what he is saying.
GRACE: ... what I asked was, given the facts that I just laid out that come from Avery himself, how can that possibly be ignored in this
Netflix documentary? How can that be?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, I`m sure it`s not ignored. It`s just part of the whole scheme of things. But the bottom line...
GRACE: No, it was not even mentioned!
KESSLER: You know what? Are we going to prosecute people on TV or are we going to do it in a court of law? This...
GRACE: No, I`m asking you about how this can be put out there and people actually sign a petition for him to be released from jail?
KESSLER: You just don`t like it when a TV show finds that somebody`s innocent. Usually, they find them guilty, and we have to worry as defense
lawyers that...
GRACE: You know what?
KESSLER: ... just because TV says they`re guilty doesn`t mean they`re guilty.
GRACE: Neither one of you are answering what I am asking you! Take a listen to what Netflix is selling. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AVERY: Something ain`t right. That`s all I know. They checked that property over. They didn`t find nothing. That`s all I know (INAUDIBLE) I
don`t know no more than that. How can I know any more than that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Allegations that this young woman, 25-year-old Teresa Halbach, was so scared of this guy -- he had come to the door once in nothing but a
towel. She went back out there for "Auto Trader," where she worked.
I don`t want to see him. I want to see her. He makes me sick!
She goes back out there to keep her job before she was killed, shot twice in the head, dismembered, her body burned in a burn pit in the back
of his salvage yard. And now somehow, he has gotten in league with Netflix, which you just saw, "Making a Murderer," to convince viewers he`s
innocent. This is wrong!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:18:20]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you had nothing do with (INAUDIBLE)
AVERY: No. No. I would never do nothing like that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But within days, police found Halbach`s vehicle hidden under branches and auto parts in the Avery junkyard. And then more
evidence in the junkyard, the partial remains of a female they believe was Teresa Halbach. The body had been burned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The most advanced types of DNA testing were used to prove that the bones in the back of Steven Avery`s auto salvage business were, in
fact, the bones of 25-year-old photographer Teresa Halbach -- can you imagine dying there, right there -- Amidst allegations that she was chained
to a bed and raped before her death.
To Dan O`Donnell joining me, along with Steve Helling and Ken Kratz, Sheriff Robert Hermann, Dan O`Donnell joining me from WISN.
Now, I know that the nephew, one of the nephews, pled guilty to her rape. As far as the murder conviction on Steven Avery goes, what is the
evidence that was totally left out of the Netflix documentary? And Dan O`Donnell, weren`t you in the documentary?
DAN O`DONNELL, WISN: I was, in fact. You see my reaction shots a couple of times, and I announced that there was a verdict.
There was, in fact. a great deal of evidence that was left out of this documentary. You had mentioned, Nancy, the sweat evidence, Steven Avery`s
sweat underneath the hood of Teresa Halbach`s vehicle.
And also, it`s very interesting that all of this evidence of a conspiracy by the Manitowoc County Sheriff`s Department is coming out now
because Steven Avery`s defense at trial called very few witnesses and didn`t really present any evidence at all of any sort of conspiracy of any
sort.
[20:20:20]GRACE: I want to go men that were involved in the principal case. Along with Dan O`Donnell and Steve Helling, also with me, Ken Kratz,
the former Calumet County district attorney. Also with me, the elected sheriff in Manitowoc County, Sheriff Robert Hermann. Gentlemen, thank you
for being with me.
You know, Sheriff, what`s so interesting is that to claim that there was some sort of a big conspiracy -- I`ve heard that argument many, many
times before. To believe that, you would have to believe that not only the jurisdiction where he had been wrongly convicted of rape before, but
another jurisdiction, law enforcement, and all the crime scene techs were in on it, that they were out there planting sweat and planting blood.
I mean, her blood was on bullets. His blood was in her car. His blood was on her car keys. Her car keys were found in his home in a
bookshelf. There was evidence that he had used "star 67" to block his call to "Auto Trader" when he asked her to come out there. That phone call is
documented.
So I guess the phone company`s in on it, too -- that all of these people are in on trying to frame him. Is that the theory?
HERMANN: I believe that would be their theory. And it`s absolutely ridiculous, all the different law enforcement agencies that were out there,
and as you stated, Nancy, it`s not possible.
GRACE: Well, you know what scares me? Ken Kratz with me, former Calumet County DA -- what scares me, Ken, is you know how White Houses --
and I`m not talking about just this president, but all the presidents -- they get wild (ph) hair (ph) and they suddenly start pardoning people.
So now you`ve got nearly a quarter million people asking the White House, Obama, to pardon this guy. What if he does it? What about that
Ken?
KRATZ: Well, here`s the problem, Nancy. You know, one of your other guests talked about not convicting individuals in the TV or through TV
shows. You certainly don`t want to get the political process involved when determining guilt or innocence.
GRACE: Oh, good Lord!
KRATZ: You know, the other thing, Nancy -- let me just chime in just briefly -- this conspiracy isn`t just that they planted evidence. They
also had to plant her bones 20 feet from Steven Avery`s back door, which means the cops had to kill her. Let`s not make any mistake about what it
is that they`re alleging. They`re alleging that because this man filed a lawsuit against the county, these officers -- not just a couple of officers
but several officers -- had to find a 25-year-old woman, had to kill her, had to mutilate her, had to spread her bones and other evidence around just
to get out of a lawsuit?
Not only do I not buy it, but the jury certainly didn`t buy it.
GRACE: You know, Joe Scott Morgan, certified death investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville state University -- Joe Scott, I
love Netflix, all right? I`m all about Netflix. We`ve got it on every iPad in the house. Of course, parental controls for the twins.
But here`s the deal. This is wrong. They are absolutely wrong. Tell me about the evidence, Joe Scott, that Netflix is avoiding. They don`t put
that in their documentary! And now the White House is going to watch this Netflix documentary one night, and they`re going to pardon this guy!
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: It`s beyond the pale at this point. It`s almost comical, if you will, if somebody`s life
wasn`t left behind in tatters like this poor girl.
One of the things they`re alleging is that they did a chemical search for EDTA, which is a preservative that you find in blood. What`s being
stated is that blood had been stored by the police in a vial -- EDTA is a stabilizer that we keep in the vials of blood -- and then went back out and
planted this.
This is another sleight of hand that was also tried in the O.J. Simpson case, where EDTA was talked about, as well. It`s all smoke and
mirrors. They`re -- this is such a fantasy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And to Mr. Avery -- is the pit back there where her car was found locked or fenced in? Can anybody just drive back there and leave
their car?
AVERY: Well, most of the time, no.
GRACE: You mean it`s normally not locked?
AVERY: No, you can just drive right in and -- if you wanted to drop something off, you could, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:29:03]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wisconsin police have been searching for this woman, Teresa Halbach. A 25-year-old photographer, she was shooting
pictures of cars that day for "Auto Trader" magazine.
AVERY: Something ain`t right. That`s all I know. They checked that property over. They didn`t find nothing. The evidence don`t make no
sense. And the state ain`t got to prove nothing. (INAUDIBLE) innocent person (INAUDIBLE) going to prove yourself (ph) and how do you prove the
sheriff`s department is doing something (ph)? (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Netflix has created a documentary that you were just hearing called "Making a Murderer," convincing nearly a quarter million people who
are now lobbying the White House to pardon this guy, a guy convicted of killing this woman, 25-year-old Teresa Halbach, he and his nephew charged
with sexually abusing her, reports she was chained to a bed before she was shot in the head and burned in a burn pit in Avery`s auto salvage yard.
Dan O`Donnell, Steve Helling, Ken Kratz, Sheriff Robert Hermann with us.
To Steve Helling. Are you familiar with the statements that Avery said behind bars about how he wanted to torture and kill women as soon as
he got out of jail and even went so far as to draw his dream torture chamber?
STEVE HELLING, STAFF WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Yes, that`s pretty heavy stuff and that`s certainly something that, you know, we don`t see a
lot of in this documentary.
GRACE: Well, do we see any?
HELLING: No, we don`t.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Do we see anything about that in the -- I mean, I want the truth, all right? I want the truth, Steve Helling.
HELLING: Right.
GRACE: Did NetFlix ever once mention that behind bars -- I mean, O`Donnell, you`re in the documentary. Is there one spot in there where
they reveal, where NetFlix reveals that behind bars, he`s festering and talking about his dream torture chamber for women that he wants to kidnap,
rape, torture and kill? Was that ever mentioned by NetFlix?
DAN O`DONNELL, WISN (via telephone): No, that wasn`t. Nor was evidence that Steven Avery many years before had killed a cat by dousing it
in gasoline and throwing it on to a fire.
GRACE: OK. Douse a cat in gasoline and threw it in a fire.
Matt, that was notably missing from the NetFlix documentary. I mean how can you even call it a documentary?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, another inmate, there`s another piece of information there from the jail, Nancy, which is that
another inmate had allegedly told Avery that the best way to get rid of a body was to burn it.
GRACE: Everyone, you are seeing evidence in the murder investigation of Teresa Halbach.
Ken Kratz, Sheriff Robert Hermann with me.
Sheriff Hermann, when you first heard about this documentary, what was your reaction?
SHERIFF ROBERT HERMANN, MANITOWOC COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE (via translator): Well, I was very troubled by it. And I was concerned that
the true story would not come out in a short documentary when you`re talking about trial that lasted six weeks.
GRACE: Awful. And I guess then the prosecutor was in on it, too, Ken Kratz. I mean, when you hear this, this means according to NetFlix that
two separate counties, Calumet and Manitowoc were both in on a conspiracy. I mean, just some of the evidence, Ken, was that he lured her there, that
he showed up at the door wearing just a towel, requested the same girl that other people saw her at his auto salvage the day she disappeared.
A few hours later, her car gone. Her car found hidden in his yard. Her cremated bones found in his burn pit. Her tires had been used to burn
her body. Her cell phone camera burned, as well. DNA evidence on the keys, Avery`s skin cells in her car. The victim`s DNA on bullet fragments
in his garage.
I mean, Ken, what was your reaction when you found out what NetFlix was up to, Ken?
KEN KRATZ, FRM. DISTRICT ATTORNEY (via telephone): Well, my reaction obviously like anybody who was involved in this is that this isn`t a
documentary at all. It`s a defense advocacy piece if they want to call it that, that`s fine. But I think it`s irresponsible to suggest that both
sides of this case were presented in any fair way.
You`ve mentioned just a fraction of the forensic and physical evidence that it was my responsibility ten years ago to present to two different
juries. We did that. They found this planting defense to be nonsense and I hope the general public, once they hear the rest of the story, is going
to feel the same way.
GRACE: Well, I can tell you this, too, Kratz and Sheriff Hermann, as a victim of violent crime, to think that all these years later, someone can
do a fake documentary leaving out the other half of the story and possibly get a White House pardon for this convicted killer is so upsetting, it`s
like reopening the wound of her murder all over again like it just happened yesterday.
I want you to listen to NetFlix`s documentary "Making a Murder."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What has this trial been like for you? What kind of feelings have you had about this trial as it`s gone on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mostly if they`re going to believe me or not. If justice is going to be right this time, not like last time. Last time they
didn`t take them long and they found me guilty. I think about that probably all the time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:38:54] GRACE: Texas suburbs, a rich kid gets drunk and high on weed and Xanax, then mows down four people dead, leaving a fifth
permanently paralyzed, a sixth with devastating internal injuries. He gets straight probation for killing four people. A warrant issues for his
arrest when he and his mother go missing.
Breaking right now, Ethan Couch alters his appearance as we predicted, dying his hair and mustaches black and fleeing to Mexico with mommy. But,
tonight, why hasn`t he been brought back home for a date with lady justice?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New developments in the case of the Texas teen and his mom who skipped the country over a deadly drunk driving accident.
The surveillance video right here shows the two at a market in Mexico before they were caught.
That`s Ethan Couch there with a darker hair and the bear with his hat backwards. And his mother is just casually shopping around that little
store, as well.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He may think he`s gotten away with something, but he hasn`t gotten away with anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:40:03] GRACE: I want to see pictures, Liz, of the crash where four people were mowed down dead after Ethan Couch and his buddies go in a
local Walmart and steal booze, get high on weed and Xanax and kill four people that were changing their tire.
A mom and her little girl, her daughter that had come out to help the woman. A youth pastor came to help. Another left permanently paralyzed,
can`t move or speak, can only see. A fifth devastating internal injuries.
To Andrew Greenstein, KRLD, how were mommy and Ethan Couch busted in Mexico? How did they get caught?
ANDREW GREENSTEIN, KRLD: Well, apparently, it all started with an order for pizza delivery. Ethan used his cell phone to order some pizza
delivery and the Tarrant County sheriff`s office or the U.S. marshal service, I should say, they got word of that. They were able to trace that
call to Mexico. He had since changed his location after he made the call, but police were soon able to zero in on him and arrest him and his mother.
GRACE: There went mommy.
With me right now, Sheriff Dee Anderson, the Tarrant County sheriff.
Sheriff, it`s just like you and I, disgust, they changed their appearance. Now he looks completely stone and drunk in this I mug shot,
sheriff. He looks drunk.
SHERIFF DEE ANDERSON, TARRANT COUNTY (via telephone): Yes, he certainly did. He certainly didn`t look like he was very coherent at the
time of his arrest. And according to the authorities who where there, they felt like that was probably the case. But I can`t say I`m surprised and I
don`t think anybody else would be either.
GRACE: You know, I don`t understand, Sheriff Anderson. You`ve been all over this case. Why is he still sitting in, frankly, a cushy location
for Mexico. He is sitting in a deportation area as opposed to sitting in a jail cell in Guadalajara.
Why isn`t he back in the U.S.? His mom is back sitting in L.A. Why is he still there?
ANDERSON: I wish I knew the answer to that. I wish I knew the ins and outs of the Mexican government and criminal justice system down there.
Apparently, the attorneys up here got a hold of attorneys in Mexico and had them file some kind of protest against his deportation which apparently was
not -- (INAUDIBLE)
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Oh, please, sheriff, sheriff, sheriff, they`re claiming --
ANDERSON: They whisked her out of the country and got her back to Los Angeles and we were thinking the same thing is going to happen with Ethan.
But this court filing has delayed all that, but I really don`t know more than that as to what the end game is here. I mean, we`re not -- he`s not
going to get released. He`s not going to get to go away. We`re going to get him sooner or later and we`re going to wait until we get him. So I
really don`t know what`s going on down there.
GRACE: Well, I can tell you this much, Sheriff Dee Anderson, Tarrant County sheriff.
I could tell you this much, they`re claiming he was illegally detained because they took his dog away from him. Did you know they were traveling
with a dog? So they get over there and he gets busted ordering pizza, Sheriff Anderson. Mommy brought home but he`s still there.
You know what, I just wonder if somehow once again money has changed hands and before you know it, he`s going to escape from the Mexican
facility like El Chapo. I`m just wondering if that`s going to happen, sheriff.
Sheriff, hold on. I`m being joined right now by Candace Trunzo, senior news editor, DailyMail.com.
I was just talking to Sheriff Dee Anderson, Candace. And we both think that it looks like -- hey, you`re seeing video from "ABC News."
Looks like he`s drunk. What can you tell me about a strip joint where mommy had to pay his bill in Mexico?
CANDACE TRUNZO, SENIOR NEWS EDITOR, DAILYMAIL.COM: He went out -- you know, he does what he wants to do and there is no control. Even at this
point, there is no parental control. He went out to a group of strip clubs in Puerto Vallarta where they were staying. He went to one club, the Harem
Club, and the sources there told us that he spent $2,000 on hookers and on booze. He was in the back with two girls and in these Mexican strip clubs,
they do more than strip and lap dances. They go the whole way.
And he choked up $2,000 in expenses that he couldn`t pay. He was drunk as a skunk. They had to drag him back to the apartment where he and
his mother were staying and the mom had to pay up the $2000.
GRACE: Everybody, you`re seeing photos from DailyMail.com. And joining us is Candace Trunzo, the senior news editor at Dailymail.com.
You know, Sheriff Dee Anderson, I know that you just heard what Candace Trunzo said. Now just think about it. Think about the families of
those four dead victims. A fifth left paralyzed, can only see. A sixth with devastating internal injuries.
And here is Ethan Couch on the lam, after straight probation, spending $2,000 on strippers and hookers according to the Daily Mail?
How do you think they feel, sheriff?
ANDERSON: I mean, they feel victimized all over again as I`ve said all along. This whole episode began when he ran, just put them right in
the holiday season right back in the crosshairs of being a victim. They experienced all the grief and the pain that they had experienced before.
And in the big picture, those are the forgotten people, the families and the victims in this because this has generated so much attention and
publicity towards Ethan and his mom that I`m afraid those people are more or less forgotten.
But we haven`t forgotten about them and we`re working very hard to make sure that both of them face justice and that`s what we`re working and
trying to do. We`re doing it for those victims and for those families.
GRACE: With me, Sheryl McCollum, former director of MADD Georgia, Mothers Against Drunk Driving, and director of the Cold Case Investigative
Research Institute.
Sheryl, are you even remotely surprised this guy, DUI four time killer, goes on the run after we think he`s caught playing beer pong, his
mommy enables him, and he`s found looking drunk at a strip club?
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, FORMER DIRECTOR, MADD GEORGIA: Nancy, we mentioned on your show last time when you and I were talking that he could very well
be out there drinking and driving as we were doing the broadcast. None of this is surprising. We named it right down to the hair color. But I`m
going to tell you something. There is no getting away with this for him. We`re going to see him over and over and over. He cannot stay sober. He
will not live a life that has no crime involved.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Superstar icon Madonna`s custody battle over her son, Rocco, threatens to boil over as Madonna`s ex-husband, the British movie director,
Guy Ritchie, reportedly lawyers up to take on Madonna.
Her son, Rocco, refusing to come home to mommy, even blocking her from his Instagram account and defecting, running away, according to reports
from Madonna`s "Rebel Heart" tour. He had been traveling with Madonna for months on that.
Will the ex, Guy Ritchie, and Madonna`s own son, Rocco, defy a U.S. court order to come home to mommy Madonna here in the U.S.?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 15-year-old reportedly wants to stay in London with his father, director Guy Ritchie. Rocco is apparently tired of
being on tour with Madonna.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Alan Duke, editor-in-chief, LeadStories.com, I mean, there could be any number of reasons a 15-year-old boy doesn`t want
to be with his mom.
I mean, Alan, isn`t it true Madonna leads a very strict macrobiotic diet. I mean, they are not having Lucky Charms for breakfast, you hear
what I`m saying. No McDonalds, nothing like that. You got to meditate. You got to do Yoga. You got to study. No, TV, oh, that`s a killer, right?
No TV. Don`t tell my twins about regular TV, OK? They don`t know about it yet, OK?
They only know about movies that I let them watch. But, I mean, what a 15-year-old would not want to get away from that?
ALAN DUKE, EDITOR IN CHIEF, LEADSTORIES.COM: Yes, well, what 15-year- old wouldn`t want to go on tour with Madonna? Well, that 15-year-old, Rocco, because she enforce very strict rules for him while on the road.
You`re right. He can`t eat chocolate and can`t do a lot of the things other 15-year-olds do. Ironically, it`s the "Rebel Heart" tour that he
doesn`t want to be on.
GRACE: All right. So, I get that. I get he may not want to be on tour. But, everybody, you`re saying Warner Brother`s records, that is
mommy`s job, she is the one that`s paying the bills, all right? And she has brought her son along with her, from what I have seen, he`s like
jumping into fancy swimming pools, having a really good time. But it would be over my dead, cold body, all right, that I would give up custody of my
children. My dead, cold, clawing body.
So I think they`re in for a little ATWL by trying to take custody away from Madonna.
With me, Alex Sanchez, Randy Kessler.
First to you, Kessler, you do a lot of divorce. Can -- since Rocco, the son, we think is still in the U.K. with the father, Guy Ritchie. Is
there a way for them to claim they`ve got jurisdiction. The divorce agreement and custody was hammered out and filed in New York.
But can -- they claim they have jurisdiction since Rocco and the father are over there? And that could be his name, as his chief domicile
where he lives?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, every country can decide its own rules but they can`t claim it. They have to ask the New York court
to transfer or give up jurisdiction by saying all the evidence is now overseas.
The first case is about which court gets to decide what`s in the child`s best interest. They can ask for it. But it doesn`t seem like it`s
going to be viable. And they better have clean hands. They better not violate the New York order and upset the New York judge or you`re going to
have international incident custody right now.
GRACE: You know, this could actually go all the way to the Hague under the international agreements between the countries.
To Greg Cason, psychologist, joining us out of L.A.
Greg, there are claims that Rocco, the boy, wants a more, quote, "stable home life."
And when you look at Guy Ritchie and his new wife, they`ve got three little children. It does look too good to be true. I mean, it does look
like a very stable home life. It does.
But -- you know, in my experience, Greg, a mother has to be hooking out on the front courthouse steps with a needle up her arm and saw in TV in
here other hand, before the court will take away custody from the mother.
GREG CASON, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, that may be true. And I don`t blame Madonna for fighting for custody for her child, but at the same time she is
treating her child like a piece of property.
GRACE: Says who? You?
CASON: No -- says, me, yes, exactly.
GRACE: Why do you say that?
CASON: Because the reality is, he is 15 years old. This is his normal thing. He is trying to have a real life. He wants to go to school.
To have kids, to have girlfriends. He doesn`t want to be out on tour with Madonna. It doesn`t matter what the rest of us want or envy, he wants a
real life.
GRACE: You`re saying Warner Brothers Records, and it`s easy for us on the outside to look in on their lives, but nobody has disputed that Madonna
is not a good mother.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember American hero commander Frank Roman, 49, Puerto Rico police department, 28-year vet with the force. A hard worker. Never
took time off. Commander of the year 2014. Three children. Frank Roman, American hero.
Thanks to our guest, but especially to you for being with us. NANCY GRACE signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern,
and until then good night, friends.
END
