Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Netflix Viewers Threaten Avery Prosecutors; Madonna`s Custody Battle; Model Bludgeoned Husband with Baseball Bat; Toddler Dies of Heroin Overdose; U.S. Citizen After Death. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired January 06, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: Breaking news tonight. Missing photographer 25- year-old Teresa Halbach bone and teeth found on property of Steven Avery, so badly burned, the most advanced DNA testing needed.
After Netflix does a documentary to reel in viewers, convincing viewers Avery actually innocent in Teresa`s brutal murder, tonight the controversy
threatens to boil over, nearly 300,000 viewers petitioning the White House, now targeting the Wisconsin governor, as the cold-blooded killers use
Netflix to scam their way out of jail.
Bombshell tonight. After last night`s program, we discover serious death threats made on prosecutors and lawmen that put Avery behind bars, this
while Avery now blaming his own brothers for Teresa`s murder.
[20:05:00]And tonight, we uncover more evidence that Avery is the true killer of Teresa Halbach, more evidence Netflix ignores in a so-called
documentary aimed at setting a killer free.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody listening! What do you want to say today?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m innocent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Avery and his nephew, Brendan Dassey, are charged with the murder of 25-year-old Teresa Halbach.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Avery`s blood was found inside of Teresa Halbach`s vehicle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Be careful. They`re not even close to being finished with you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who is doing this to me? I cannot figure it out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: "Making a Murderer" from Netflix.
And tonight, superstar icon Madonna`s custody battle over son Rocco explodes as Madonna`s ex, British movie director Guy Ritchie, reportedly
lawyers up to take on Madonna, son Rocco refusing to come home to Mommy Madonna, blocking her from his Instagram. In the last hours. Are
Madonna`s ex-husband, Guy Ritchie, and her son, Rocco, going to defy the judge`s order that Rocco come home to Mommy Madonna in the U.S. ASAP?
Tonight, the possible tipping point causing Rocco`s runaway? Did Madonna confiscate the boy`s cell phone because it interfered with homework?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Madonna`s custody battle over her 15-year-old son...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Reportedly refusing to return to the United States to see his mom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I guess the universe had other plans.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So the judge said, Rocco, you got to go home to your mom, but he doesn`t want to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And did a glamorous model and her FBI agent dad bludgeon her husband dead with a baseball bat, leaving the his two children orphans?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A former FBI agent and his daughter are now facing charges in the death of the woman`s husband, a father of two. The 911
caller, believed to be the victim`s father-in-law, reportedly told responders he had an argument with his son-in-law and struck him with a
baseball bat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A 12-month-tot dies a horrific, painful death in her own crib, dressed in her onesie, dead from a heroin overdose? How does that happen,
and why has nobody been charged?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body of Penny Cormani (ph) was found lifeless.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her mother called in saying that her child was purple and blue.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to a search warrant, Penny was found with a lethal amount of heroin and that codeine was also present.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Missing photographer 25-year-old Teresa Halbach bone and teeth found on the property of Steven Avery so badly burned, the most
advanced DNA testing needed. After Netflix does a documentary to reel in viewers, convincing them Avery is actually innocent, tonight, the
controversy boiling over. Nearly 300,000 viewers demand the White House now target the Wisconsin governor as the cold-blooded killers use Netflix
to scam their way out of jail.
Bombshell tonight. After last night`s program, we discover death threats - - death threats! -- have been made on prosecutors and lawmen that put Avery behind bars for murder, this while Avery is now blaming his own brothers
for Teresa`s murder.
And tonight, we uncover more evidence Avery is the true killer of Teresa Halbach, more evidence Netflix ignores in their so-called documentary aimed
at setting a killer free. It is wrong!
In the last hours, we learn serious death threats made on the prosecutor and lawmen responsible for putting Avery behind bars in the murder of
Teresa Halbach.
Straight out to Mike Kemmeter, WHBY. Death threats on the prosecutor and the lawmen on this investigation? What kind of death threats?
MIKE KEMMETER, WHBY (via telephone): They`ve been getting calls, e-mails, and some of them including threats since, actually, the series launched
here, since Netflix debuted it about three weeks ago.
GRACE: Everyone, look at this. "You`ll all burn in hell for murdering that poor girl and blaming Steven Avery and his nephew to save your own
asses. You`ve ruined that whole family. How do you sleep at night? You are the lowest scum of the earth. The prosecutors, the old sheriff, the
new sheriff, the officers, all of you. I`ll never let anyone I know set foot in your disgusting town, disgusting pieces of S-H-I-T. What you did
to Brendan Dassey alone is disgusting. Your department crooked as they come. I hope you all rot in hell."
It goes on and on and on. It degenerates to death threats.
Joining me right now, Ken Kratz, the former Calumet County district attorney. Ken, what do you make of the death threats?
KEN KRATZ, FMR. CALUMET COUNTRY D.A. (via telephone): Well, first of all, good evening, Nancy, and thanks for having me. I have no problem with
people weighing in on results of trials. I actually think it`s a positive thing that there`s a dialogue about the criminal justice process.
GRACE: OK, wait. Wa-wait, wait. Ken Kratz...
KRATZ: I didn`t have a problem with people talking about me personally, but when I hear callers...
GRACE: Ken Kratz...
KRATZ: ... and I read up to 3,000 e-mails that have been received by myself and my law firm about things like they want to rape my daughter,
they want me to have to watch those kind of things happening, they want to not only kill me but harm my family -- those kind of things are way beyond
what`s reasonable.
You know, the Internet provides an opportunity, sadly, to make these kind of threats virtually anonymously, but at some point, they`ve got to take
the responsibility for their own behaviors.
GRACE: With me is former Calumet County D.A. Ken Kratz on the case. When Steven Avery was investigated in the murder of Teresa Halbach, the evidence
of Avery`s guilt was overwhelming.
Ken Kratz, I did not know that someone is threatening to rape your daughter, forcing you to look on. How many death threats have come in on
you and your family?
KRATZ: Well, we`ve gotten -- as I said, it`s approaching 3,000 e-mails. Most of them are insulting in nature. A good portion, however, are not
only threatening but threatening to the point of including specificity.
Sadly, at the Douglas County Superior, law enforcement is involved. They are collecting evidence. We had a package that was received last week that
exploded in our office, and although it only exploded glitter -- it`s one of these glitter bombs -- it did cause significant damage to our office
equipment and things like that.
And so what is really disturbing, Nancy, is the opportunity that some individuals are taking not just to complain about a verdict or a decision
in a case a long time ago, but seeming to take the opportunity to attack me personally, my business or those other persons that were involved in this
case.
GRACE: Well, I just wonder -- I wonder, Ken Kratz, is Netflix going to do a documentary about this since they stirred this up and basically laid out
a case in a 10-part series that Avery is really innocent and that you and lawmen like you are responsible for an innocent man going into jail over a
murder he didn`t commit? I wonder if they`re going to do a documentary about that.
You know what? I bet they`re not because what I`m saying tonight, Ken Kratz, is that maybe at the beginning, when these producers that did this
documentary sold them on the idea, that they thought, Hey, great. We`ll expose wrongdoing. Maybe they didn`t know it was all BS and that this was
not a fair documentary.
[20:10:14]But what are they, an ostrich with their head in the sand and their tail in the air? They know now. They know now that you are getting
death threats, and so is your family. They know the truth.
As a matter of fact, let`s talk about, Matt Zarrell, the evidence that shows Steven Avery is the killer of Teresa Halbach.
Let`s see that list, Liz, why we are convinced the right man is behind bars, this man, Steven Avery, that he lured Teresa Halbach to his place.
First, his past incident with the cat. What was that, Matt Zarrell?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, he lit the cats on fire and threw them in a bonfire.
GRACE: And people say, Why would he do that to Teresa? He targeted Teresa. He called, disguising his identity with Star 67, saying he was
somebody else, to send the same girl as last time, and used a different name. If it was not nefarious, why lie about his I.D.?
Teresa`s phone, camera, PDA found 20 feet from Avery`s door, burned in a barrel. He told inmates he intended to build a torture chamber to rape,
torture and kill women as soon as he got out of jail.
The victim, 25-year-old Teresa Halbach`s, bones in a fire pit intertwined - - this is important -- intertwined with steel belts from car tires used by Avery as accelerant.
Now, listen. In order to do this, in order to plant evidence, police would have to murder Teresa Halbach, burn her body, get the bones and then
intertwine them with steel belt tires. That`s quite a cover-up, right, that spans two counties, and nobody`s ever cracked and talked about it?
Let`s see the rest of the list, Liz. Teresa`s tooth and rivet from her jeans. She was wearing some Daisy Fuentes jeans the day she went missing.
The rivets from those jeans, the decorations, along with her tooth, found in the fire pit.
Phone records showing three calls from Avery to Teresa`s phone, masking his identity. There were six calls in all luring her back. Avery`s DNA on the
victim`s hood latch. Under her hood, the DNA was sweat. Nine -- ballistics said bullets found in the garage with Teresa`s DNA was fired by
Avery`s rifle.
Unleash the lawyers, Kirby Clements and Robert Schalk. Kirby, how difficult would it be for the cops to frame him using his rifle and her DNA
and placing it in his garage?
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know what? The police had absolute control over all the evidence, so to answer your question, it
would be very easy to frame someone. Let`s start there. It would be very easy to do.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVEN AVERY, CONVICTED OF MURDER: Well, your honor, I`m sorry for Halbach`s family, Teresa Halbach`s family, what they`re going through, the
pain, the hate they got. There`s nothing else going to bring her back, you know? And my family, what they`re going through, and everybody`s friends
and the community.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:17:42]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you had nothing to do with this.
AVERY: No. No. I would never do nothing like that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But within days, police found Halbach`s vehicle hidden under branches and auto parts in the Avery junkyard. And then more
evidence in the junkyard, partial remains of a female they believed was Teresa Halbach. The body had been burned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Breaking news right now. With 300,000 and counting names petitioning the White House and the Wisconsin governor to reverse or pardon
the conviction of Steven Avery in the brutal murder of 25-year-old photographer Teresa Halbach, in the last hour, we learn that the prosecutor
and the lawmen responsible for the investigation are now receiving death threats, death threats to them and their family.
As of tonight, Netflix no comment after being forced to see on our show that they have not told the whole story, that Steven Avery is, in fact, the
true killer. Look at their documentary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AVERY: I didn`t do it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who did?
AVERY: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) Teresa takes a picture. You come outside. She -- and you are both outside. You give her the money. She goes and
gets in her truck and then gives you a (INAUDIBLE) inside the truck or out of the truck when she (INAUDIBLE)
AVERY: (INAUDIBLE) shut the door. I walk into the house. I go to my computer, came back out (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) the house to (INAUDIBLE)
AVERY: (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That from NBC and "Making a Murderer" from Netflix.
Dan O`Donnell, WISN, to believe his story that he was framed by police, you would have to believe that police were in on him calling Teresa Halbach
over that day, which he admitted to me on our show when they were trying to help find missing Teresa Halbach.
[20:20:10]He actually came on my show. I grilled him like a steak on a grill, and he admitted he called her over and she came over the day she
goes missing. So what, police had a hand in that? And then they, what, killed her and put her remains there? It doesn`t make sense, Dan
O`Donnell.
What more can you tell me about the threats on the lawman?
DAN O`DONNELL, WISN (via telephone): People making all manner of specific, and in law enforcement`s view, credible threats not only against the
prosecutor, Ken Kratz, but against the sheriff`s department in general, the Manitowoc County Sheriff...
GRACE: Right.
O`DONNELL: ... and (INAUDIBLE) officials.
GRACE: To Larry Fishelson joining us, technology expert, co-founder and COO of Dynalink (ph) Communications. Larry, how do we track down the
people that are threatening the prosecutor and the lawmen? How do we track these people down?
Let`s see some of these threats, guys, as Larry is telling us how to track these people down.
LARRY FISHELSON, TECHNOLOGY EXPERT (via telephone): OK, Nancy, thanks for having me. It`s very simple. So if it`s on a phone call, they can go
ahead and get the records of every incoming call through subpoena. Then you can go ahead very easily through e-mails. All you need is the IP
address, the host name and host location, which you get from the Internet provider, and it will track exactly the location and who it`s registered
to.
So through those two things, you will be able to see where this stuff is coming from. It`s just that there`s a lot of work that needs to be done
because it looks like they`re getting a lot of threats here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:21]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A significant amount of blood was found in Teresa Halbach`s vehicle, plus more blood on the Averys` property and in
buildings on that property.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: In the last hours, we also learn that Steven Avery is now trying to blame his own brothers for Teresa Halbach`s murder, claiming that they got
her blood and smeared it in his car in six different places. It`s not just the cops he`s trying to blame, now he`s blaming his own brothers, his own
blood brothers -- anybody but him.
How can Netflix continue on with this charade, not addressing the fact that they have stirred up 300,000 people who are demanding the White House and
the governor let this cold-blooded killer out of jail!
To Mike Kemmeter, WHBY. He`s now blaming his own brothers?
KEMMETER: It was from a filing in his appellate -- on his appeal case...
GRACE: Yes?
KEMMETER: ... and it was denied by an appellate court. They did look at four different people, including the two brothers, who he claims had
opportunity to...
GRACE: Ken Kratz with us, as well, the former Calumet County district attorney, now receiving death threats over this whole thing. Thanks,
Netflix!
Ken Kratz, he`s even blaming his own brothers in addition to you and all the police officers in two counties?
KRATZ: Well, that doesn`t surprise me at all, Nancy. Mr. Avery has never taken responsibility for anything involving Teresa Halbach. You even hear
him on the Netflix calling the soaking his cat in gasoline and oil as some kind of goofing around or some kind of highjinks or an accident that
occurred with some guys he was hanging around with. He will absolutely downplay any of his sadistic and egregious behaviors to make himself look
better.
GRACE: You know, it`s not about Netflix. Before this, I was all about "Odd Squad (ph)" for the children, "Spy Kids (ph)," you name it. Love
Netflix. But how can they go on with this? Are they making that much money that it`s worth the truth?
Take a listen to what their documentary says, totally ignoring the other side of the story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AVERY: I`m trying to wrap my brain and think, who is doing this to me? I can`t figure it out. I still come up with a dead end. It`s like the last
case I couldn`t figure out.
I guess I`m feeling pretty good. As long as everything is going smooth, and I think it is (INAUDIBLE) Well, it`s -- I think it`s a great thing.
Hopefully, they`ll go through the evidence and try to make sense of it. It`s the only thing that`s going to help.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got hope that they`re going to do the right thing, tell them that he`s innocent. I know God is on my side, on his side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, we`re on Teresa Halbach`s side.
That`s from "Making a Murderer" on Netflix.
[20:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Superstar icon Madonna`s custody battle over son Rocco explodes as Madonna`s ex, British movie director Guy Ritchie, reportedly lawyers up to
take on Madonna.
Son Rocco refusing to come home to Mommy, blocking her from his Instagram within the last hours. Are Madonna`s ex-husband, Guy Ritchie, and son,
Rocco, defying a judge`s order that son Rocco come home to Mommy Madonna in the U.S. ASAP?
Tonight, the possible tipping point causing Rocco`s runaway? Did Pop Star Madonna confiscate the boy`s cell phone because it interferes with
homework?
Madonna`s son, Rocco Ritchie, is reportedly refusing to return to the United States to see his Mom. Madonna actually went to court to force him
to come home.
The judge ruled Rocco must return. Now, Madonna is currently on a world tour right now. Part of his complaint was he didn`t want to keep going from
city to city, to country to state. He didn`t want to do that.
That`s from Dan Davis and (inaudible) straight out to Alan Duke, editor-in- chief leadstories.com. Are they defying her order? Because according to our sources, he goes to a French school in New York, in Manhattan in the upper
80s on the east side, and they started school back on Monday. Wasn`t Kaplan`s order that he be back for school to start?
ALAN DUKE, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, LEADSTORIES.COM: I think it was he has to be there for a February 3rd hearing, according to the judge. He`s got to be
there for that. But go to school, he`s been traveling with his mom throughout Europe.
She`s on the way to Mexico to resume her tour, so what`s this about going to school in New York? It`s a little confusing to me. He can probably go to
school in London. They`ve got excellent learning institutions there.
[20:35:00] GRACE: Well, you may be confused, I agree. Is he getting tutored when he`s on the road? Does he have a school in London?
DUKE: Yes.
GRACE: But Justin Freiman, I thought the judge wanted him back for the beginning of school term?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Correct, Nancy. The judge did say that he should return to New York in time for the start of the school after
Christmas break.
GRACE: OK, so to Michael Griffith, international lawyer, joining me from Long Island tonight. Michael, here`s the deal. We`ve got a New York judge,
which is where the divorce was finalized and the custody agreement could enforce.
We`ve got the mom in New York, Madonna. We have Guy Ritchie, the father, and the son in dispute in the U.K. So where does jurisdiction lie?
This New York judge said, you got to be home by January 4, but he`s not home. This is Warner Brothers Records, everybody. Go ahead, Michael.
MICHAEL GRIFFITH, INTERNATIONAL LAW ATTORNEY: Nancy, there`s something called the Hague Convention that controls child custody and domestic
matters, and the reason for the Hague Convention, which has been signed by about 40 countries, is because the first court that orders, for example, in
this case, custodial visitation, the courts thereafter, meaning the British courts, have to follow the New York court`s order or else be held in
contempt.
GRACE: Wait a minute, Michael Griffith, hold on. Sorry, but this is Warner Brothers Records again and Madonna.
So you`re telling me it`s basically a crapshoot, the luck of the draw, whoever gets an order first, be it the Brits ...
GRIFFITH: Yes.
GRACE: ... or U.S.?
GRIFFITH: Yes.
GRACE: That`s who wins?
GRIFFITH: It`s a -- well, it`s a race to the court. Whatever the judge rules, and they`re not going to be sure what the judge is going to rule,
but the first judge that rules in that country, a court thereafter has to follow it.
And the reason for that, Nancy, is because in the old days people would go what`s called forum shopping or court shopping where they would run to
different countries to try to get the order overturned. Now the British court must follow the New York custody agreement.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: So what this judge, as Debra Kaplan out of Manhattan Superior Court, I think it`s Supreme Court, which is their trial court, says that he had to
come home for the start of the school term. And according to what we believe, Rocco was enrolled at a school in Manhattan that started back to
school on January 4th.
If this is true, that means that the ex-husband, Guy Ritchie, and the son, Rocco, are in violation of a court order. Now what are you going to do?
Chris Fargo, dailymail.com, what do we know about why he ran away from Madonna`s World Tour Rebel Heart to start with?
CHRIS FARGO, DAILYMAIL.COM: Well, I mean the thing about Madonna, people might not expect is that she`s very much a disciplinarian and she wants her
kids to go to school. She wants them to study with their tutors when they`re on tour and she wants them to do their homework.
Apparently, Rocco was not doing his homework one night. She became frustrated, she took away his cell phone as a result, and that`s what drove
him back to his father`s house.
GRACE: Oh, man. Oh, man. Matthew Dempsey, Psychotherapist, you got to be careful when you`re disciplining children. Not to say she`s not. She`s
extremely strict and disciplined. I mean, you know that from the success she has achieved.
Apparently she has a macrobiotic diet, no sugar, no dairy, blah blah, no preservatives, no salt with iodine in it. My head`s hurting just talking
about it. And he has to exercise, he`s got to eat a certain way, he`s got to do his homework.
But when you take away a cell phone -- mine don`t have a cell phone yet - I mean, that`s pretty drastic for a 15-year-old. That`s his link. He`s where,
in Madrid? That`s his link to his father, his siblings, his girlfriends if there are any, all of his friends. That`s pretty serious to take that away
and not give it back.
MATTHEW DEMPSEY, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, it is pretty serious. It`s also something that`s kind of pretty typical for a lot of teenagers. He`s 15.
You know, this story is obviously one that`s just kind of a bit ramped up on steroids because it`s Madonna.
So she`s, you know, like a celebrity and there`s a lot of money involved. But we`re also talking about Madonna who is really controlled. I mean,
there`s so much control that goes into this because, you know, she`s kind of what we would call histrionic, meaning that there constantly needs to be
this attention that`s put on her, she needs to be the center of attention ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: All right, wait, wait. Whoa, whoa, wait. How do you know that? Do you know Madonna personally and you think she`s histrionic?
DEMPSEY: I don`t. But she`s obviously ...
GRACE: Then why do you say that?
(CROSSTALK)
DEMPSEY: ... been in the public eye and those enough information to suppose ...
GRACE: Well, he`s in the public eye, too.
(CROSSTALK)
DEMPSEY: ... that she could be potentially histrionic.
GRACE: So you`re guessing ...
DEMPSEY: What`s that?
GRACE: ... that Madonna is histrionic and that she applies this to her son. Is that what you`re saying? Because I got a problem with that.
DEMPSEY: Yes.
[20:40:00] GRACE: I see her as a mother that is extremely controlling, that is disciplined, that she wants a certain life, possibly a better life for
her children than what she perceives that she had, and so she`s trying to get them to go to school. Lourdes is in school, Lourdes went to school. She
went to college. Maybe she wants the same thing for Rocco. Have you thought about that? Has that crossed your mind?
DEMPSEY: I have thought about that. Yes, and she is very much a mom in this sense that she really cares and wants to make sure that her children are
okay.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Oh! Because I thought you just said that she`s histrionic.
DEMPSEY: But when we`re talking about -- hold on, but when we`re talking about ...
GRACE: I thought that what you just said.
(CROSSTALK)
DEMPSEY: ... a mother, yes, I did say histrionic, but when we`re talking about a mother, that`s one thing, but Madonna as an individual ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Oh, Madonna is not (inaudible).
DEMPSEY: ... there`s been a lot of histrionics just in her entire ...
(CROSSTALK)
DEMPSEY: ... career and her personality. And so that can also really be applied to her ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: So you`re talking about a mother but not Madonna, the mother. OK. Thanks, Matthew.
DEMPSEY: No, I`m applying both.
GRACE: Yes. I`m with two lawyers, Kirby Clements and Robert Schalk. Also with me, Michael Griffith. OK, Robert Schalk, weigh in. Are we going to
have to take this thing all the way to the Hague? Because if he was supposed to be back on January 4, they`re in violation of a court order.
ROBERT SCHALK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure, absolutely. But if Guy Ritchie really wants to fight around this, he needs to hire an attorney in New
York, file an emergency, you know complaint or be (ph) with the court to oppose what Madonna is asking. But this is just about two human beings who
are mother and father. They can work on it amongst themselves. They don`t need to go to court.
GRACE: I got one other question. To maybe throw a wrench in the word, just Warner Brothers Records, Justin Freiman, what can you tell me about pot
allegations?
FREIMAN: Well, Nancy, there`s reports out there that he made some references to pot in some of his Instagrams.
GRACE: Uh-oh, uh-oh. I can tell you right now, Madonna -- this is from Warner Brothers Records -- is not going to have any situation where her son
is exposed to pot. I don`t believe it. I ain`t buying it.
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Did a glamorous model and her FBI agent dad bludgeon her husband dead with a baseball bat leaving his two children orphans?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police responded to a home in Winston-Salem around 3:00 a.m. Where the body of Jason Corbett was discovered, found with fatal head
injuries. A former FBI agent and his daughter face murder charges in the death of the woman`s husband.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Michael Hewlett with the Winston-Salem Journal. Michael, what happened?
MICHAEL HEWLETT, WINSTON-SALEM JOURNAL LEGAL AFFAIRS REPORTER: Again, it happened at 3 o`clock in the morning. The sheriff deputies were called to
the couple`s house on the way. He was informed that the father-in-law told one, that he had an argument with Jason Corbett and had struck him with a
baseball bat, and when they got to the house, they found Jason Corbett inside with head injuries from which he later died.
GRACE: Stacey Newman also on the story. Stacy, what do we know about the injuries to the husband?
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, that information hasn`t been released, but we know they were fatal head injuries and we know that they
occurred with a baseball bat when he was found in the home.
GRACE: OK. You know, Stacey, I used to tell juries nothing good happens after midnight. Nothing good. OK, this is a 3:00 a.m. police call.
For those of you just joining us, a glamorous model and her FBI agent dad now accused in the death of her husband, who was bludgeoned to death.
And with me right now, two special guests Walter Holton, the lawyer for Molly Martens Corbett and David Freedman, the lawyer for Thomas Martens,
her dad. Gentlemen, thank you for being with us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And good to be here.
GRACE: Both of you have excellent reputations as lawyers in your area. Walter Holton, is it true that the defense is going to be self-defense?
WALTER HOLTON, ATTORNEY FOR MOLLY MARTENS CORBETT: Yes, that`s correct. We can`t -- as you know, Nancy, we can`t specifically address the evidence,
but we are very confident at trial that a jury will determine that all actions taken by both Molly and her father were more than justified by the
event.
GRACE: With me is also David Freedman, the lawyer for the FBI dad, Thomas Martens. He and his daughter now charged in the bludgeoning death of her
leaving the husband`s two children orphans.
David Freedman, thank you for being with us. I understand that the defense is going to be self-defense. How was the victim, in this case, attacking
your client?
DAVID FREEDMAN, ATTORNEY FOR THOMAS MARTENS: Well, I can`t really get into the evidence. I mean, what I can get into is that Thomas Martens was an FBI
for 31 years. He has been trained in self-defense, he`s been trained in what force he can adequately and necessarily use to defend himself or
others, and then Mr. Martens would never use any force more than necessary to end the harm that may have been there for either himself or for others.
GRACE: To Michael Hewlett joining us from Winston-Salem Journal, Michael, do we have any idea whether or not the victim, in this case, 39-year-old
Jason Corbett, a father of two, was armed at the time?
HEWLETT: No. There`s been no evidence, no information about him being armed.
GRACE: So if he`s not armed, do we have any idea how many blows he took to the head?
HEWLETT: The autopsy has been filling this case, so we don`t know. All we know is he had severe head injuries.
GRACE: Stacey, do we believe at this juncture there were multiple blows to the head?
NEWMAN: Well, there`s two people charged, so I would imagine if you got two people on second-degree murder, there had to have been multiple blows with
that baseball bat.
GRACE: Well, for all I know, Stace, I hear what you`re saying. For all I know, the theory could be she handed him the bat and he hit the husband or
vice versa. If they were in it together, I don`t know if they both wielded the bat, but you`re right. Our sources are saying more than one blow to the
head. To Dr. Ken Redcross, board-certified Internal Medicine and Concierge doctor joining us out of New York. Dr. Redcross, thank you for being with
us.
KEN REDCROSS, BOARD-CERTIFIED INTERNAL MEDICINE PHYSICIAN: Hey Nancy, thank you for having me.
GRACE: I understand if that was self-defense, one blow to the head; but multiple blows to the head? How does that affect a death?
REDCROSS: Let me tell you, Nancy, that`s absolutely right when you say that. Multiple blows to the head, it doesn`t even take that many to end up
requiring death. You have fractured skulls, you have bony fragments, you have brain matter that actually comes out from that point. So to be
multiple blows, I just could not believe this when I saw this particular case.
[20:50:00] GRACE: You know, I`m with the lawyers Kirby Clements, Atlanta, Robert Schalk, New York.
First to you, Robert Schalk. Again, nothing good happens after midnight. This was a 3:00 a.m. call to police, and I guarantee you the state is going
to argue that the daughter and the father colluded on their story to police. That they`re going to argue that this was self-defense but that it
was not self-defense.
SHALCK: Right.
GRACE: Now, Robert Schalk, once self-defense is raised as an affirmative defense which means, yes, I did the act, I beat him to death, but here`s my
reason, my reason is self-defense. If it`s self-defense, won`t that be an absolute defense?
SHALCK: Yes. I mean, the burden`s going to shift to the defendant where they normally don`t have to prove anything. They`re going to have to prove
that they exerted the reasonable amount of force. But the question is going to be if he didn`t have a weapon, who called 911?
Why was the grandfather at the house at 3:15 in the morning? Was he called there by the daughter because of a domestic incident? These are a lot of
questions that need to be answered.
GRACE: Yes. Yes. Good point. Good point. What about it, Kirby?
CLEMENTS: Oh, he`s absolutely correct. I think that the multiple blows is really a problematic unless one of those blows was not, maybe ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: A problem for who, the state or the defense?
CLEMENTS: It will be a problem for the defense.
GRACE: Yes.
CLEMENTS: If both blows were fatal-type blows. But if one blow was a glancing blow, then it won`t be a problem for the defense.
GRACE: David Freedman and Walter Holton, the two defense lawyers handling this case. I guess you`re getting some pretty good ideas if you hadn`t
already done them already. Walter Holton, what was the father doing at home at 3 o`clock in the morning?
HOLTON: Well, Nancy, thank you for the question. And as we stated, we can`t discuss the evidence specifically at this point, as I know you understand.
But it`s extremely interesting, and I don`t know if any of the experts have seen a case where a grand jury returns an indictment of second-degree
murder and at the same time returns an indictment of voluntary manslaughter which means that even the grand jury recognized that there was a serious
self-defense issue here. I`m personally ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, if they had truly believed it was self-defense, wouldn`t they have not indicted at all, Walter?
HOLTON: Excuse me?
GRACE: If they thought it was self-defense, the grand jury would not have indicted at all.
HOLTON: Well, the grand jury here consists of a police officer, without any attorneys, not even the prosecutor. A police officer giving a short
summation of the evidence to the grand jurors.
The fact that they came back with the lesser and through the defense, I`ve never seen it happen and it`s a clear signal that they thought self-defense
was a very serious issue in the case.
[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A 12-month-old tot dies a horrific and painful death in her own crib. Dressed in a onesie. Dead from a heroin overdose? How does that
happen? And why has nobody been charged?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We became very suspicious on maybe how this child died.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a horrible thing. It`s terrible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to a search warrant, Penny was found with a lethal amount of heroin and that codeine was also present.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mother called in saying that her child was purple and blue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Jim Kirkwood, KTKK joining us. Jim, what happened? How does a 12- month-old toddler girl dressed in a onesie score heroin?
JIM KIRKWOOD, KTKK TALK SHOW HOST: Well, Nancy, the police indicate there was drug paraphernalia and drug residue all over the duplex, and it was
inevitable. You`re a mother, you know about 1-year-olds. They put everything in their mouth.
GRACE: She died in her crib wearing a onesie. So, Dr. Ken Redcross, joining us from New York, how much heroin would it take for this little baby to
O.D.?
REDCROSS: Let me tell you, Nancy. Unfortunately, it wouldn`t take that much. You know, never in a million years, really, 2 million years when I
think I ever be talking about a 1 year overdosing.
GRACE: Awful.
REDCROSS: That`s how disgusting society has become, unfortunately. But, unfortunately, it wouldn`t take much at all to kill Baby Penny like,
unfortunately, it did.
GRACE: Brad Lamm joining me, founder of Breathe Life Healing Centers. Not just an addiction specialist, a former addict.
OK, Brad Lamm, I know you`re going to start up with me about they need treatment, they need help. OK. They can get that behind bars because a 12-
month-old tot and heroin in your home don`t mix.
BRAD LAMM, FOUNDER OF BREATHE LIFE HEALING CENTERS: Well, you can snort it, shoot it, eat it, that`s probably what happened here, Nancy, with the
precarious position folks put their kids in, I`ve seen it over the years. Kids and adults (inaudible) overdosed and then they just die. So, it`s ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Kirby Clements, Robert Schalk, you ...
(CROSSTALK)
LAMM: It`s not a surprise -- it`s not a surprise to me.
GRACE: You hear Brad Lamm. This is classic felony murder, Kirby Clements. Felony possession of heroin which is basically any amount of heroin, and a
death occurs.
CLEMENTS: Well, you know ...
GRACE: Felony murder.
CLEMENTS: I don`t know, Nancy. Because felony murder as to who, number one, and then secondly, it could have been residue that this child contacted. We
don`t know who was the person who supplied that, which is why no one has been charged in the case (ph).
GRACE: They had it in their home. And I am not letting up until someone is held accountable for this tot`s death.
Let`s remember American hero Army Sergeant Kenith Casica, 32, Virginia Beach, second tour. Loved fishing in the ocean. Granted his dream after his
death, U.S. Citizenship.
Parents, Benigna and Joseph. One brother, one sister. Widow and childhood sweetheart, Renee. Three children. Kenith Casica, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but thank you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp eastern, and until then,
good night, friend.
[21:00:00]
END
