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Nancy Grace
Sandra Bland Cop Indicted for Perjury; "Making a Murderer": Is Brendan Dassey Victim of His Uncle?; El Chapo Taken Down by Marines. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired January 11, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: Breaking news tonight. The mysterious death of 28- year-old Sandra Bland, found dead in a Texas jail cell after a controversial arrest, Sandra Bland`s voicemail from behind jailhouse walls.
We obtain it, supporters insisting Bland was murdered and it was a cover- up. A secret grand jury indicts the police officer over Bland.
Bombshell tonight. We obtain the just-released police mugshot. Is this cop still on the payroll even after being indicted? Tonight, claims Bland
did not commit suicide explode. Suicide or murder? Does this sound like a woman who wanted to commit suicide?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDRA BLAND, DECEASED: How did switching lanes with no signal turn into all of this? I don`t even know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car!
BLAND: For a failure to signal? You`re doing all of this for...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over there!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Encinia was in and out of jail in a matter of 30 minutes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, El Chapo busted, taken down by marines, and who, of all people, at Chapo`s hideout? None other than American movie star Sean
Penn, who goes deep into the Mexican forest to meet with the ultra-violent drug lord El Chapo, making time for several photo-ops, shaking his hand and
fawning over the biggest drug lord in the Western hemisphere!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A day after El Chapo`s arrest, actor Sean Penn published an article about his secret meeting with the drug lord.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: El Chapo speaking while on the run.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Penn writes the secret seven-hour sitdown started with a shot of tequila and campadre hug.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now officials want to question the Hollywood A-lister.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, missing photographer 25-year-old Teresa Halbach bone and teeth found on property of Steven Avery so badly burned, the most
advanced DNA testing needed. A Netflix documentary reels in record viewers, convincing viewers Avery innocent in Teresa`s death.
Tonight, the controversy boils over, 300,000 petition the White House and Wisconsin governor as the cold-blooded killers use Netflix to scam their
way out of jail.
Breaking right now, convicted killer Steven Avery widens his net, now blaming not only police for framing him but blaming his own blood brother,
and the victim, Teresa Halbach`s, brother. Who`s next, the Easter bunny?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Steven Avery with first degree intentional homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Significant amount of blood was also discovered in Teresa Halbach`s vehicle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While fans dissect the series and the case on line, even circulating a petition urging a presidential pardon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you know you`re innocent, you will keep on going.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. The mysterious death of 28-year-old Sandra Bland, Sandra found dead in a Texas jail cell after a controversial arrest. We
obtain her very last voicemail sent from behind jailhouse walls, supporters insisting she was murdered and the whole thing was covered up.
A secret grand jury indicts a police officer over Bland. We obtain the just-released police mugshot. Is this cop still on the payroll even after
being indicted?
Tonight, claims Bland did not commit suicide explode. Suicide or murder? When you listen to that voicemail, does it sound like a woman who wants to
commit suicide?
First of all, I want you to see the extremely controversial arrest of Sandra Bland. Now, the story of why Bland was arrested and dragged out of
her car is ever changing. We are learning tonight that there have been about five different stories from the cop about why he pulled her over and
why he pulled her out of that car. Why is the cop`s story changing?
Take a look that the arrest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDRA BLAND, DECEASED: Don`t touch me. I`m not under arrest. You don`t have the right to...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are under arrest!
BLAND: I`m under arrest for what? For what?
[20:05:00]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) 290. Send another unit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car! Get out of the car now!
BLAND: Why am I being apprehended? You`re trying to give me a ticket for failure...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said get out of the car.
BLAND: Why am I being apprehended?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m giving you an lawful order. I`m going to drag you out of here.
BLAND: So you`re going to drag me out of my own car?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car!
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... I will light you up. Get out!
BLAND: Wow!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now!
BLAND: Wow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car!
BLAND: For failure to signal? You`re doing all of this for a failure to signal?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over there!
BLAND: Right, yes. Yes, let`s take this to court.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead!
BLAND: For a failure to signal, yes. For a failure to signal!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get off the phone.
BLAND: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get off the phone.
BLAND: (INAUDIBLE) on the phone. I have a right to (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put your phone down!
BLAND: It`s my property.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put your phone down!
BLAND: Sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put your phone down right now! Put your phone down!
BLAND: I`m not complaining because you just pulled me out of my car!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn around!
BLAND: Are you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kidding me? This is some (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands behind your back!
BLAND: (INAUDIBLE) (EXPLETIVE DELETED) That`s all it is. You`re scared of a female.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you had just (EXPLETIVE DELETED)...
BLAND: I was trying to sign the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) ticket! Whatever.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop moving!
BLAND: Are you serious? OK. Wait until we go to court. Oh, I can`t wait. I cannot wait until we go to court. I can`t wait. (INAUDIBLE) You
want me to sit down now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No!
BLAND: Or are you going to throw me to the floor? Will that make you feel better about yourself?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Knock it off!
BLAND: That`ll make you feel better about yourself? That make you feel real good, won`t it? (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
BLAND: For a failure to signal, you`re doing all the this. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) My God, they...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were getting a warning until now. You`re going to jail.
BLAND: I`m getting a -- for what? For what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can come read it. Come read (INAUDIBLE)
BLAND: I`m getting a warning for what? For what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stay here. Stay right here.
BLAND: (INAUDIBLE) over there!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said stay right here.
BLAND: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Oh, I swear on my life (EXPLETIVE DELETED). (EXPLETIVE DELETED) for a signal you`re talking me to jail?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Jeffrey Boney, "Houston Forward Times," the cop`s story changes from pulling her over for improper lane change to her running a stop sign.
Hey, you know what? I`ve run a stop sign before, and I didn`t get dragged out of the car and thrown down on the ground.
So Jeffrey Boney, "Houston Forward Times," do we know whether this officer, Encinia, is still on the payroll?
JEFFREY BONEY, "HOUSTON FORWARD TIMES": Well, Nancy, the Texas Department of Public Safety has begun termination proceedings on Trooper Encinia.
However, he`s planning to, along with his attorney, Larkin Ethan (ph), to fight those termination charges, as well as...
GRACE: OK.
BONEY: As well as...
GRACE: I hear you. But what I`m not hearing, Jeffrey Boney, "Houston Forward Times" -- I think all of that is correct. Terry Lane (sic) from
"The Texas Tribune," what I`m trying to figure out is, even though they`re going to appeal all this, is he still getting paid? That`s what I`m trying
to find out.
TERRY LANGFORD (ph), "TEXAS TRIBUNE": Yes, he is.
GRACE: Oh, dear Lord!
OK, you know what? Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CROSSTALK)
BLAND: For (EXPLETIVE DELETED) You`re about to break my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) wrist!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop moving!
BLAND: I`m standing still! You keep moving me!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stay right here! Stay right there!
BLAND: Don`t touch me. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) For a traffic signal (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right over here. This right here says a warning. You started creating the problem!
BLAND: You asked me what was wrong!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have anything on your person...
BLAND: I`m trying to tell you...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... that`s illegal?
BLAND: Do I feel like I got anything on me? This is a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) maxi dress.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, remove your glasses.
BLAND: This is a maxi dress.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on over here.
BLAND: (INAUDIBLE) have on me. You`re about to break my wrist! Can you stop? (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Stop!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop now! Stop it!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop resisting, ma`am.
BLAND: If you would stop, then I would tell you. Now stop!
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop moving around!
BLAND: ... for a traffic signal!
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you pull away from me, you`re resisting arrest!
BLAND: This make you feel real good, doesn`t it, a female for a traffic signal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got it. I got it.
BLAND: For a traffic signal. I know that makes you feel good, Officer Encinia.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Take care of yourself.
BLAND: I know it makes you feel real good. You`re a real man now. You slam me, knock my head in the ground. I got epilepsy, you mother
(EXPLETIVE DELETED)
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You should have thought about that before you started resisting.
BLAND: All right. All right. Yes, this is real good, real good for a female. Yes. Y`all strong. Whoa. Y`all are real strong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want you to wait right here.
BLAND: Y`all are real strong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wait right here.
BLAND: I can`t go nowhere with your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) knee in my back. Duh!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to open your door.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Terry Langford, with the "Texas Tribune." Also with us, Jeffrey Boney from "Houston Forward Times."
Terry, you hear her saying, All this for failure to signal? So obviously, that is what he told her. Now that story is getting more, that she ran a
stop sign. There are at least five different stories about what this cop is saying. He has been indicted in connection with the Sandra Bland case.
[20:10:05]Why is he still getting paid, Terry Langford?
LANGFORD: Termination proceedings with DPS, agency he works for, begins with suspension with pay. And that`s his status at this time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For a warning. For a warning you`re going to jail for resisting arrest.
BLAND: Whatever.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand up.
BLAND: If I could!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, roll over.
BLAND: I can`t even feel my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) arm!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen. Listen, you`re going to sit up on your butt.
BLAND: You slammed my head into the ground!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sit up on your butt.
BLAND: You do not even care...
(CROSSTALK)
BLAND: I can`t even hear!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, you can.
BLAND: He slammed my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) head into the ground!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sit up on your butt.
BLAND: All for a traffic signal. I swear to God! All of this for a traffic signal! Thank you for recording! Thank you. For a traffic
signal, slammed me into the ground and everything! Everything! I hope y`all feel good!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:15:10]BLAND: I`m not complaining because you just pulled me out of my car!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Found out her bond was $5,000.
BLAND: This is complete (EXPLETIVE DELETED)!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands behind your back!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was calling and calling and no one was answering.
BLAND: Are you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kidding me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She just broke down. She was crying and crying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn around!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And we hear her saying over and over, I cannot wait to take this court. I cannot wait for this to go to court. She would have been in
court within hours. Under our Constitution, within 72 hours, you must have a first court appearance where you are told what you are charged with. You
can`t just rot in jail without ever knowing what your charge is or being in front of a magistrate.
Listen to her last known voicemail from behind bars. Does this sound like a woman who is about to commit suicide? Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
BLAND: Hey, this is me. I`m -- I just was able to see the judge. I don`t really know -- they got me set at a $5,000 bond. I`m still just at a loss
for words, honestly, about this whole process. How did switching lanes with no signal turn into all of this? I don`t even know. But I`m still
here, so I guess call me back when you can.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: There you hear her talking about her last seeing the judge. She got a $5,000 bond. That only means she has to have $500 to get out of jail
or a friend (ph). And she was going to see another judge and go into the intricacies of this arrest.
What I want to do right now is find out what exactly was the cause of death. Do you believe this woman killed herself?
And are you confirming, Justin Freiman, on the story -- this cop who has just been indicted in connection with this case is still being paid?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): That`s right, Nancy. He is suspended with pay. They`ve taken possession of his government-
issued service weapon and other department-issued equipment. So basically, not working but getting that paycheck.
GRACE: To Joe Scott Morgan, certified death investigator, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, thank you for being
with us. The cause of death is asphyxiation by strangulation, ligature strangulation.
Liz, can you show me the picture of the -- I think -- there you go. It`s the trash can liner used to asphyxiate her.
Joe Scott, here`s my question for you. How do I know somebody else did not strangle her with that? Why are we so convinced she strangled herself?
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: The medical examiner, Nancy, is going to be looking for specific manifestations in the neck. One
of the things that we`ll be looking for in the morgue at autopsy is what we refer to as tenting (ph) feature, like a tent. If she hung herself, you`ll
have a feature that looks similar to this, where the noose creates an upward pull where her weight is now. This creates a little upward pinch
in...
GRACE: I don`t understand. Repeat.
MORGAN: OK.
GRACE: Oh, wait. I think I do get it. So you`ll see it going up like that? OK. Can I ask you something, Joe Scott?
MORGAN: Sure.
GRACE: Yes, hold that up again. Why is it we`re so convinced she did that to herself, as opposed to someone else doing it to her?
MORGAN: Well, one of the things that you look for, if it`s a ligature strangulation in a homicidal mode in a typical case of ligature
strangulation, a homicide, is the noose or the ligature will be going back parallel it the shoulders. The weight creates this tenting feature that
you look for, commonly found in hanging suicides.
GRACE: So could the tenting feature to which you are referring, Joe Scott, also occur if the person is strangled from behind and the ligature -- for
instance, the noose you`re holding -- is pulled up and back?
MORGAN: Yes.
GRACE: Isn`t that true?
MORGAN: Absolutely. It could be pulled up just like this, and it could, in fact, create the same tenting feature. Yes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:23:13]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The haunting voicemail.
BLAND: I`m still just at a loss for words honestly about this whole process. How did switching lanes with no signal turn into all this?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the dashcam video of Bland`s arrest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car!
BLAND: This is for a failure to signal? You`re doing all of this for a failure to signal?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over there!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the final moments of her life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What happened to Sandra Bland behind bars? Her body found asphyxiated, strangled, dead in her jail cell. Tonight, we learn the cop
that has been indicted in connection with the Sandra Bland case is on paid leave. Why? Take a look at this additional video we`ve obtained.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CROSSTALK)
BLAND: All right. All right. Yes, this is real good. Real good for a female. Yes. Y`all are strong. Real strong. Y`all are real strong.
(INAUDIBLE) (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need to leave. You need to leave.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t hear you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need to leave.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Am I on public property?
(CROSSTALK)
[20:25:00]BLAND: Really? Really? (EXPLETIVE DELETED) I can`t even feel my arms. (INAUDIBLE) You just slammed my head into the ground. You do not
even care about that. I can`t even hear. He slammed my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) head to the ground. All of this for a traffic ticket. Thank you
for recording. Thank you. For a traffic signal! Slammed me to the ground and everything! Everything!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video of Sandra Bland`s arrest from YouTube.
Vincent Hill, former police officer, investigator, author of "Playbook to a Murder" and "Incomplete Pass" -- Vincent, this cop has now come up with
five different reasons about this arrest. Another cop has been indicted in connection to the case. What went wrong, in a nutshell?
VINCENT HILL, FMR. POLICE OFFICER: Well, when you look at the initial video, Nancy, he actually did make contact with her because she failed to
stop at a stop sign. It`s there in the video. The problem is that he articulated in his report that he extracted her out of the vehicle to
completely and safely finish that traffic stop, which, obviously, is not true. That`s where the problem is. And that`s why he was indicted.
GRACE: How many times have you been dragged out of your car and thrown face down over a lane change or stop sign, ever?
HILL: Well, I haven`t. And also...
GRACE: Me, either.
HILL: If I would have arrested people that were agitated or smoking a cigarette in their own vehicle, the jails in Nashville would be full. It`s
not illegal, Nancy, to do that in your vehicle.
GRACE: That`s a good point. I`m glad you said that.
Justin Freiman, isn`t it true that at one point, it was stated he yanked her out of her vehicle because he was angry she wouldn`t put out her
cigarette?
FREIMAN: That`s right. That`s what it seems like in the video, and that is also mentioned by the grand jury.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Alex Sanchez, Randy Kessler. Alex Sanchez, why is he still getting paid when he has been indicted?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Because an indictment is not a conviction. You know, Nancy, there`s no mystery in this case.
GRACE: He`s a cop!
SANCHEZ: This -- you know what...
GRACE: Why should a cop, indicted...
SANCHEZ: First of all, when you use the term "he`s been indicted in connection with this case," it sounds like he`s indicted in connection with
the death. He`s not indicted in connection with her death. He`s indicted because...
GRACE: No, he`s indicted for perjury!
SANCHEZ: Yes, there`s allegedly some mis -- you know, contradictory statements about how she was removed from the car. But the fact that she
died in jail has nothing to do with his indictment. And that should be clear.
GRACE: Oh, OK, Alex. All right. Fine. Can we address the original question? Randy Kessler, this is a police officer indicted -- indicted --
by a grand jury. Why is he still getting paid?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Indicted does not mean convicted. We believe in...
GRACE: I know that!
KESSLER: ... innocent until proven guilty. So if you believe that, then why is he going to be...
GRACE: No.
KESSLER: ... prosecuted and punished until he`s found guilty?
GRACE: You know what?
KESSLER: This investigation...
GRACE: You can get fired for being rude at work. You can get fired for an inappropriate comment. This guy is indicted and still getting paid!
[20:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Missing photographer, 25-year-old Teresa Halbach, bone and teeth found on the property of Steven Avery, so badly burned. The most advanced
DNA testing need.
A Netflix documentary now reels in record viewers, convincing them Avery is innocent in Teresa`s murder.
Tonight, the controversy boils over. Three hundred thousand petition the White House and the Wisconsin governor as the coldblooded killers use
Netflix to scam their ways out of jail.
Breaking right now. Convicted killer Steve Avery widens his net. Now blaming not only cops for framing him, but blaming his own brothers, and
Teresa`s brother. Who`s next? The Easter bunny?
KEN KRATZ, FORMER CALUMET COMPANY D.A.: Mr. Avery was the last person to see Teresa Halbach.
STEVEN AVERY, AMERICAN CONVICT: They`re always saying I`m the last person who have seen her. Now how can I be the last one? I saw her leave, so I`m
not the last one. Whoever did this is the last one.
GRACE: Joining me right now in addition to Natisha Lance on the scene there at Wisconsin, Donnie Wahlberg is with us. You recognize him, I`m sure, he`s
the star of the CBS Drama "Blue Bloods".
He just wrote an editorial on "Making a Murderer." First of all, Donnie Wahlberg, why you? Why Steven Avery? And what do you think?
DONNIE WAHLBERG, STAR OF CBS DRAMA "BLUE BLOODS": Well why me? I guess because I watched it like everyone else and I had my own opinion. You know,
A lot of people think is this an unfair portrayal, you know, or one-sided portrayal?
I`m not sure that it`s unfair but I think it`s incomplete. And I think when we -- you know, as a society and a lot of people are rushing forward to
sign petitions and do all these things including trying to get a presidential pardon which you can`t even do, because it`s not a federal
case.
You know, when we all rush to one side of it, and we`ve only seen an incomplete representation of the case, we`re actually guilty of doing what
the cops are accused of doing in this case, which is rushing to judgment.
GRACE: Can I ask you something, Donnie?
WAHLBERG: Yes.
GRACE: Donnie Wahlberg with us. You were just seeing clips of his hit CBS drama "Blue Bloods." There he is, right there. And he has taken an interest
in the Avery case and is firmly convinced Avery is the real killer.
This, as more death threats are resurfacing, death threats on police and prosecutors, Sheriff Robert Hermann, Manitowoc County Sheriff.
Sheriff, what do you make of this snowball? It`s getting bigger and bigger. Now, Avery is actually blaming his own brothers and blaming Teresa
Halbach`s brother for her murder.
ROBERT HERMANN, MANITOWOC COUNTY SHERIFF: Yes, definitely. Just another twist to the entire story and nobody`s paying attention to the real
information, the evidence that`s out there, the evidence that was presented to the jury for six weeks. They`re not looking at the whole picture.
They`re making up their own stories.
[20:35:00] GRACE: You know, Donnie Wahlberg, you just made it to the studio, and I don`t know if you`re familiar with the very latest and that
is that Avery is now blaming his own family, his own brothers for Teresa`s murder, and even blaming Teresa`s brother, who was not even anywhere
around. And you know another thing we found, Donnie Wahlberg, is that her car, as you know, was discovered in the auto salvage lot.
WAHLBERG: Uh-huh.
GRACE: Volunteers find the car, Donnie. Police don`t even find the car. So how did that whole thing work? The police somehow included the volunteers
...
WAHLBERG: Well, first of ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... and their frame up?
WAHLBERG: First of all as far as Steven Avery accusing everyone, he may be watching the series now. It seems if you watch the series and take the
position that he is innocent, you`re pretty much looking at everyone when the compelling violins come in every time there`s a piece of damning
evidence against the police or someone else.
But I think, you know, when it comes to the car and the evidence, it`s all -- you know, there`s just too much evidence at the end of the day to really
look anywhere else.
And look, I`m not convinced he`s guilty. I suspect he`s guilty. Because I haven`t seen all of the case. No one who who`s watched this show has seen
it.
In the O.J. Simpson trial we saw all of it. And it was very reminiscent to this case. There was blood found conspicuously in an SUV. The cops were
accused of planting that blood.
One piece of damning evidence was found in Steven Avery`s bedroom, the key. The glove was found behind O.J. Simpson`s house found by Mark Fuhrman who,
if anyone, is a crooked cop, and all these cops between these two phases, I`d go with Mark Fuhrman over the other ones, but I think one of the most
compelling things is Avery`s lawyer shows to blame the police.
And when they made that choice, they not only had the burden of defending their client, they also now had the burden of proving the cops did it, you
know. And they sort of took the burden away from the prosecution because, you know, they now put it on themselves to prove that all these cops -- all
these cops were involved in this.
All these people, the woman who found the car. You know, you see her on the stand. You know, we have the power of hindsight now. And this case wasn`t
yesterday. It was seven, eight, nine years ago. And ...
GRACE: Well, you know ...
WAHLBERG: And -- and nine years ago ...
GRACE: ... when you say, Donnie Wahlberg ...
WAHLBERG: ... to have that big of a conspiracy ...
GRACE: Listen, Wahlberg.
WAHLBERG: ... something would have come out by now.
GRACE: I`m agreeing with you. But after you`ve watch 10 hours on the Netflix video giving you one side, when you look at the forensic evidence,
I mean, you`ve got his blood in six spots in her car.
You have many bullet fragments with her DNA on it in his garage, you have a full skeleton. Isn`t that right, Dan O`Donnell?
WAHLBERG: I`m not ...
GRACE: ... WISN ...
WAHLBERG: I`m not ...
GRACE: Two hundred and 70 bones of hers are in his burn pit. How did the cops pull that off, Dan O`Donnell?
DAN O`DONNELL, WISN REPORTER: Somehow the police would have had some sort of hand in Teresa`s Halbach`s murder. And in the opening statement that
Avery`s own attorney, Dean Strang, in the trial, he said we`re not implicating the police in the murder of Teresa Halbach. We didn`t say that
they killed her.
Well, then who did?
[20:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Straight out to Natisha Lance, our producer standing by there at the Manitowoc County Courthouse. Natisha, you just spoke with co-defendant`s
Brendan Dassey`s lawyer. What did he say?
NATISHA LANCE, HLN SENIOR PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, he says that he`s been working with Brendan Dassey since 2007, and now Brendan`s case is in
federal court, it is under review. They expect there to be a decision on that case in about a year or so.
I asked him, given his experience because he has a history of working with juvenile cases and also confession cases, what he thinks the odds are for
Brendan Dassey, and he said he doesn`t want to handicap the case by saying what the odds are.
He believes that it`s a strong case for sure. And particularly because of the interview that went down with Brendan Dassey. He said, one of the
things that was left out of the documentary in addition to some of the things we have heard from prosecutors, is also that he had a confession
expert who was on the stand who talked for a full day about all of the issues with Brendan Dassey`s interview. However, Dassey ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK, you know, let me go to Donnie Wahlberg on that. Can we see the Dassey confession video, please? You know, Donnie Wahlberg, star of CBS
Drama "Blue Bloods" just written an editorial on "Making a Murderer" by Netflix.
I`ve looked at Dassey`s video over and over. Everybody says he was forced into a confession. B.S.
Yes, he may not be a graduate student from Harvard but, I mean, what am I supposed to think about that, Donnie Wahlberg? That just because you don`t
haven`t gone to college and you don`t have an Einstein I.Q., you can`t rape a woman? That`s B.S.
WAHLBERG: Well, you know, the one thing that`s important to remember in all -- in all this hullabaloo about the case is really no one is remembering
the true victim is Teresa Halbach.
And, you know, Brendan, you know, he`s potentially a victim in some way, too. Even if he`s guilty in this, you know, he is a victim of his uncle, if
that`s the case. Because there`s no way ...
GRACE: He raped ...
WAHLBERG: ... his uncle ...
GRACE: ... Teresa Halbach.
WAHLBERG: ... ever sort of had him. This ...
GRACE: He raped Teresa Halbach. He is not a victim.
WAHLBERG: I`m not -- I`m not ...
GRACE: If your uncle ...
WAHLBERG: ... talking about that ...
GRACE: ... called you and then said ...
WAHLBERG: ... in that context
GRACE: ... hey, Donnie, let`s cut this lady`s hair off and rape her and then I`ll kill her? How does that make him a victim?
WAHLBERG: Nancy, what I`m saying is if his uncle brought him over there to engage in this horrific thing, then his uncle is victimizing him. There`s
no -- everyone really victimizes ...
(CROSSTALK)
[20:45:00] GRACE: Can I ask you something?
WAHLBERG: ... and I`m not - I`m talking about the police ...
GRACE: Do you think his uncle made him rape the woman?
WAHLBERG: Yes. Uncle should have never had him over there in the first place.
GRACE: He chose to rape the woman.
WAHLBERG: Nancy, what I`m saying ...
GRACE: Teresa Halbach.
WAHLBERG: I`m not here to debate it. He is convicted. The jurors made all ...
GRACE: oh, honey ...
WAHLBERG: ... the decisions.
GRACE: ... when you get in that chair, okay, it`s on.
WAHLBERG: The jurors -- the jurors made all the decisions and the jurors in this case ...
GRACE: You`re right.
WAHLBERG: ... are the ones who are most qualified. Not me. Not everyone signing petitions. It`s the jurors.
GRACE: You`re right.
WAHLBERG: And I respect ...
GRACE: You`re right.
WAHLBERG: ... their decisions in both cases. So, my point is ...
GRACE: Well then, if you respect their decision, Donnie, then I don`t see how you can portray Dassey as a victim when he ...
WAHLBERG: What I`m saying is ...
GRACE: ... raped this woman while she`s chained down.
WAHLBERG: ... he`s also a -- well, people are saying he`s a victim of the cops. I would say he`s a victim of his lawyers not helping him, not guiding
him to the right decisions in this thing.
GRACE: OK. I hear what you`re saying.
(CROSSTALK)
WAHLBERG: OK, that`s what I`m talking about. So I don`t disagree with what the ruling was by a jury. They`re the only ones who know and heard the
whole case. Not anybody else.
GRACE: Dr. Ramani Durvasula, I understand why people are getting involved, and Wahlberg has state this as well. People want to do the right thing. But
this is just simply misleading them. I know it`s killing the victim`s family.
RAMANI DURVASULA, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well that, I mean, that is the concern, is that the victims` family, all these years later, is reliving
all of this.
I mean, again, this is Netflix. This is not a court of law. We`re getting half of the story, we`re getting pieces of evidence. We`re not the jurors.
But again, viewing this from the perspective of really the only victim in all of this is Miss Halbach. That`s it. And so people can turn this around
and now obviously it`s a mess.
But I think that at the end of the day, if we keep the focus on the victim here, and I disagree with Mr. Wahlberg. Well, yes, there`s been a lot of
things done in terms of a miscarriage of justice.
This young man was in there and did engage in this behavior. Yes, he may have been under the power of the uncle and whatnot but all of that has to
be established a lot more clearly.
A lot of people are telling their own narratives around this and at the end of the day, a woman was raped and killed, and I`m not sure that Netflix is
our new court of law.
[20:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Notorious drug lord, "El Chapo," busted, taken down by Marines and who, of all people, meet at "El Chapo`s" secret hideout? None other than
American movie star, Sean Penn, who goes deep into the Mexican forest to meet with the ultraviolet drug lord, "El Chapo."
Making time for several photo ops, shaking "El Chapo`s" hand, and fawning over one of the most violent and most powerful drug lords in the western
hemisphere.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Notorious drug trafficker, Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman, gives an exclusive interview to the Academy Award winner, Sean Penn.
A face-to-face meeting just months after the drug kingpin escaped out of a maximum security prison and writing that the cartel leader acknowledged
moving more heroin, methamphetamine, cocaine and marijuana than anybody else in the world.
GRACE: Straight out to CNN correspondent Martin Savidge, joining me there in Mexico. Martin, thank you for being with us. How did the bust of "El
Chapo" go down?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It went down, actually, according to plan, at least by the Mexican authorities. It was almost a textbook
takedown. Friday, of course, you saw as the special forces of the Mexican military moved in on the safe house of Joaquin Guzman "El Chapo," and the
way it worked out was you had six of his henchmen that were killed in that assault.
No soldiers were killed. One was slightly wounded, and eventually, even though in the gun battle, Guzman was able to escape. He was apprehended a
short time later.
Exactly the way they wanted, no innocent people on any of the side streets, despite all the gunfire were hurt, and you know how America and Mexico`s
most wanted back behind bars.
So, that video, by the way, of that raid is so incredible, about the only way you would see anything more clearly than that is if you had been part
of the entry team itself. Quite phenomenal to see how it -- as it has happens, as they break in through a garage, and then begin a gun battle
inside of the very close quarters of that house, room by room. Nancy?
GRACE: Martin Savidge, CNN correspondent is joining us there in Mexico. Could you give me any idea, Martin, how Sean Penn managed to have a meeting
with "El Chapo" before he`s arrested?
SAVIDGE: Sean Penn apparently was able to connect with a Mexican actress who had been communicating herself with "El Chapo." And it seems that that
was sort of the coupling that made it all come together.
He talks about a lot of clandestined communications that he had apparently with "El Chapo`s" group. And then eventually, they were able to set up his
meeting in the middle of the jungle in the middle of Sinaloa State.
How exactly it was carried off without anybody knowing, that`s the real question mark here. Mexican authorities say that they actually were aware
of what ...
GRACE: You know ...
SAVIDGE: ... was happening and it was by tracking them or tracking those movements that they were able to eventually figure out where "El Chapo"
was, Nancy.
GRACE: With me in Mexico is CNN correspondent, Martin Savidge. What`s so amazing to me is I watch Sean Penn fawning all over one of the deadliest
drug lords in the world.
I want to warn you about graphic content we are about to show you for everyone that thinks "El Chapo" is a hero of sorts. He is responsible for
multiple murders, murders of innocent people. These are some of the murders attributed to "El Chapo." It goes on.
There is a body burned dead, attributed to "El Chapo." Bodies hanging from the bridges from cartel drug violence, more and more -- there`s another
body hanging. Some of the photos are so graphic I can`t even show them to you on air.
How would you feel if those are your brothers, your sisters, your father, your mother, and now this man is celebrated as a hero? And movie star, Sean
Penn, is over there sucking up to him? Alan Duke, Editor-in-Chief, leadstories.com, what do we know about Sean Penn?
ALAN DUKE, LEADSTORIES.COM EDITOR-IN-CHIEF: Well, we know that Sean Penn, he`s quite an activist. He does a lot of interesting and controversial
things whether befriending the Venezuelan president or "El Chapo."
He is not a journalist, but he was trying to -- I guess you could say pretend to be a journalist by doing this and who knows what he`ll do next,
but he`s quite a character.
GRACE: Martin Savidge, right now, "El Chapo" is set to be extradited to the U.S. Do we have to agree, Martin, not to put him to death?
SAVIDGE: I haven`t heard any talk about that. You know, right now, the extradition process has begun, nobody has given us any real clear timeframe
here, and that`s going to be the real question.
Already, we`ve heard from "El Chapo`s" attorney who says, look, we`re going to fight this with everything we`ve got. And that could drag it out for
sometime. Not weeks, not months, but perhaps even longer than that.
So, I haven`t heard about any, you know, saying, oh, we`re going to take the death penalty off the table. That has not been said right now. They`re
just trying to start the very basics of this extradition process.
GRACE: Joining us also from London, Angus McQueen, documentary filmmaker and director of "Drug Lord: The Legend of Shorty." Shorty is "El Chapo."
Angus McQueen, thank you for being with us. What do you make of the bloody arrest of "El Chapo?"
ANGUS MCQUEEN, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: I`m not surprised by it. It was very clear that the escape he made last summer from the second escape from a
high security jail in Mexico over the years was a complete humiliation for the Mexican government because it just revealed the levels of corruption
within the structures of society in Mexico.
And so it doesn`t surprise me that it`s not taken very long, comparatively a few months, for them to track him down. Now, from the sources we
establish when we were looking for him, before he last got arrested, we knew that there was huge pressure they (inaudible) on his people up in the
Sinaloa mountains over the past weeks.
GRACE: You know what`s amazing to me, everybody, you`re seeing dead man walking for a Gramercy Pictures. Angus McQueen, what`s so amazing to me is
he is being hailed as a hero.
And there you see Sean Penn totally sucking up to one of the most violent drug lords that ever walked the face of the earth. Why is it overlooked by
so many people, this guy is a murderer?
MCQUEEN: Certainly responsible for huge amounts of violence. It would probably be wrong to just moralize about "Chapo." And listen, the war on
drugs, as it played out in Mexico over the past decade, has killed over 100,000 Mexicans.
You`ve seen on -- you`ve been showing some of the pictures of the dead bodies. Many of these, "Chapo" is responsible for. But, it is a battle for
a -- for a market and a business. Ultimately ...
GRACE: Right.
MCQUEEN: ... "Chapo" is a smuggler and I know it hurts to say it, but while he`s a murderer, he is also fundamentally a businessman. The Sinaloa cartel
are making billions of dollars every year, out of the illegal drugs trade that he`s trading in ...
GRACE: And all the blood of his victims, including dead Americans.
Let`s remember, American hero, Army First Lieutenant Kevin Smith, 28. Brandon, Florida. West Point grad. Junior Olympian. Favorite meal, smoked
chicken. Parents, Georgianna and Clifford. Fiancee, Dana. Kevin Smith, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp, eastern, and
until then, good night, friend.
[21:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
