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Nancy Grace
Evidence of Planning in 13-Year-Old`s Murder; Bombshell TV Movie "People Versus O.J. Simpson" Reveals Evidence Jury Never Heard; Cosby Target of Multiple Police Investigations. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired February 03, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: Breaking news tonight. A 13-year-old school girl vanishes from home. Her family finds a nightstand pushed against her
bedroom door, dive teams searching a local pond for evidence. In a bizarre twist, focus on two Virginia Tech University superstars, engineering
majors, the boy a track star, the girl a NASA intern. Did one lure the school girl on line, the other mastermind dumping her body beside a highway
like she`s trash?
Bombshell tonight, evidence indicating this was no spur-of-the-moment killing, that both the male and female college students had been planning
this up to three weeks. And we learn the little school girl telling her little friends about a, quote, "secret boyfriend." Is critical evidence
located inside the perp`s car, as police scour surveillance video to nail down a timeline?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A very preliminary cause of death is stabbing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police now say that she was killed the same day she went missing from her home near Virginia Tech University. An accomplished
athlete, now he`s charged with first degree murder and abduction.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her favorite color was blue. yes, I can`t do that (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Missing mom of two Nique Leili`s body found unclothed, decomposing under leaves not far from her upscale home she shares with her husband and
two daughters. Why wasn`t Nique reported missing immediately? As focus turns on the dad, Nique`s own two daughters taking to YouTube to defend
him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You want to see how many bruises are going to show up here tomorrow? Huh?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, bruises.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How much you want to bet me? You want to take bets on it? Huh?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I never touched (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God! You lied (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Known as America`s dad, comedian Bill Cosby the target of multiple police investigations for sex molestation of nearly 50 women who say Cosby
assaulted them. In the last hours, not so funny anymore, Bill Cosby finally in criminal court. Is he headed to jail?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was on top of me, kissing me forcefully.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was stalking us, stalking us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Waking up in a bed with Mr. Cosby naked.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were bruise marks all over me. I knew I was raped by him. He`s a predator.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bill Cosby`s an attacking rapist!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: In a bombshell miniseries just hitting airwaves, FX Network`s "People V. O.J. Simpson," we finally discover damning evidence the O.J.
Simpson murder trial jury was never allowed to hear, from Simpson`s suicide attempt in the bedroom of reality star Kim Kardashian to nearly a dozen
previous 911 calls on domestic beatings, and worse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, not guilty of the crime of murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) I was handcuffed for five seconds!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think he did it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, Chris (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you do it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I loved her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. A little school girl vanishes from her home. Her family finds a nightstand pushed against her bedroom door, dive teams
searching a local pond. But in a bizarre twist, focus turns to two Virginia Tech University superstars, both engineering majors. The boy is a
track star, the girl a NASA intern.
Did one lure the little girl on line, the other mastermind dumping her body by the highway like she`s trash? Evidence indicating this was no spur-of-
the-moment killing.
Bombshell now. Did both the male and the female students plan this up to three weeks before the child kidnapped and murdered? We also learn the
little school girl tells her friends about a secret boyfriend. Is critical evidence located inside the perp`s car, as police scour surveillance video
to nail down a timeline?
[20:05:00]Straight out to Marty Savidge. First, Marty, question to you. What do you make of these allegations that they had been planning this for
up to three weeks?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it came as a shock, especially when it came to the accomplice they alleged in this case, and that is
Natalie Keepers here. You`re talking about two that are supposedly extremely bright and up to this point very promising young people at a very
important college.
And now, as the authorities suggest in the charging documents, this was going on or the planning stages of all of this goes back several weeks to
the beginning of January. That seemed to shock a number of people here because we thought perhaps this was just a spur-of-the-moment death. Now
it appears to be something much more sinister beyond...
GRACE: Well, Marty, does that mean that -- everyone, joining me, CNN correspondent Martin Savidge on the story. Marty, does that mean then that
he had seen the girl before? I mean, how can you plan an abduction and a murder three weeks ahead when you don`t -- you`ve never even met your
victim? Had he been spying on her or is it just chatting in a chat room?
SAVIDGE: Right. Authorities believe that she died on the very night that she disappeared from her home. And just as you point out, it seems really
beyond the scale (sic) to suggest that this all happened because of one evening`s meeting.
So yes, is it possible that they had met, in other words, the victim and the suspect prior, physically met, because there`s a lot of on-line
communication? Yes, I think there are people who are now coming to the conclusion this wasn`t the first time the two had been together physically.
GRACE: Joining me right now at the funeral home in Blacksburg, Virginia, Annie Anderson from CNN affiliate WSET. Annie Anderson, thank you for
being with us. Annie, what are you hearing there in the field?
ANNIE ANDERSON, WSET CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, at yesterday`s news conference, we learned that Nicole was stabbed. That`s from the
preliminary autopsy reports. The full autopsy won`t be available until about late March. But so far, the cause of death is stabbing.
GRACE: You know, that was a big shock to everyone, Annie Anderson, because when her body was first found by the side of the road -- actually off in
some trees, a wooded copse that seems to be about 50 to 80 feet away from the highway -- they would not say anything about the cause of death. But
stabbing should have been visible to the naked eye.
Annie, do you know whether the girl was clothed when she was found?
ANDERSON: You know, as of right now, police are being -- they haven`t told us exactly how she was found or anything like that. We might have to wait
until that comes out in court to find out about that.
GRACE: And another issue -- Annie Anderson joining us from WSET there in front of the funeral home. I cannot even imagine planning a funeral for a
little girl who has just turned 13. What are the arrangements?
ANDERSON: Well, the visitation is going to start here in just a few hours. That`s scheduled from 5:00 o`clock to 8:00 o`clock. And then the actual
funeral is going to be here at McCoy funeral home tomorrow at 3:00 PM.
GRACE: Everyone, the little girl`s mother racked with pain. She can`t bear to continue speaking. Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Coley (ph) had a passion for pandas, music, dancing, dreamed of being on "American Idol" some day. Her favorite color was blue.
Nicole was a very lovable person. Nicole touched many people throughout her short life. Yes, I can`t do that part.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last part here just says, Our hearts still ache in sadness, and secret tears still flow. What it meant to lose you, no one
will ever know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There you see the little girl, this girl just turning 13, Nicole Madison Lovell.
Annie Anderson joining me outside the funeral home, joining us from WSET. We are now learning, Annie, that the little girl may have told two little
friends -- two 8-year-old little friends that are two girls that are twins that live in her neighborhood, that she had a secret boyfriend. What do we
know about that? And obviously, is that boyfriend David Eisenhauer?
ANDERSON: Well, according to an AP report, that`s kind of what we`re thinking right now. Nicole told her two 8-year-old twin neighbors that she
had a secret boyfriend. And she even showed them a picture of that boy, and we`re kind of putting two and two together, and so far, it seems that
that boy was 18-year-old David Eisenhauer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:13:53]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Coley had a passion for pandas, music, dancing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Beating cancer, surviving a coma and MRSA. Her mom says she constantly beat the odds. But police say two Virginia Tech
students ultimately caused her to lose her life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These two individuals took my daughter from this planet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eisenhauer told investigators, The truth can set me free.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: In the last hours, we are learning that this was no spur-of-the- moment death. Apparently, this honor student female and honor student male track star at Virginia Tech had planned the kidnap, if not the kidnap and
murder, of this little girl for three weeks, three weeks!
Straight out to Larry Fishelson, technology expert at Dynalink Communications. Larry how would they know that, what, based on their
texts, their e-mails, what?
LARRY FISHELSON, TECHNOLOGY EXPERT (via telephone): Nancy, it looks like what they were doing here was they were using the Kick (ph) messaging app,
which is really an app that`s used for a lot of people going on trolling because what happens is it`s not used by a phone number, it`s anonymous,
where all you have is a user name. So it looks like they went ahead and they were going back and forth where they`re posting things, setting it up
through this app, up to the crime.
[20:15:12]GRACE: To you, Marc Klaas, president, founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. To think that these two were planning this for three weeks
before the girl goes missing? And not only that, the little girl thinks she`s got a boyfriend? I mean, as much as you can know about a boyfriend
from what you learn on the middle school playground.
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION (via telephone): You know, Nancy, it`s so tragic on every level. I think something that parents really need to
pay attention to is what their kids are doing on line. And I don`t mean just talking to their kids and setting up parental controls on the various
social media Web sites, but even go so far as to Google the top 10 social media apps and Web sites. And that will bring you a whole list that`s
constantly changing of these various Web sites or apps that are out there and how they work, how they`re used, what they`re used for.
And they can then have a better idea of what may be going on with their kids and then be able to do some investigation into their kids` devices to
see if, in fact, they are using those behind their back because more and more and more, we realize that predators are out there on line, trolling
for little kids, and particularly needy little kids, kids that may be reaching out for the kind of attention they`re not getting in the real
world, which is exactly what happened in this situation.
GRACE: You know, the psychology behind these two honor grads, very difficult for me to take in why they would do this, but why is not the
burden of the state to determine why.
What I`m trying to find out now, Michael Christian, is the map. Let me see the location between where she lived, the little girl, the school girl,
Nicole, where their dormitory was? Turns out their dorm is only 900 feet from each other at Virginia Tech where the body is found.
Now, look, they crossed the state line and go into North Carolina to dump the school girl`s body. As we all know, the law is, you can be prosecuted
for a murder where the incident takes place or where the body is found. So there`s two ways this can go, in Virginia or North Carolina.
Back to the map. Michael Christian, look at this. Between the location where she lives and Virginia Tech, what do we know about toll roads, red
lights that might have surveillance cameras? I mean, I`m just wondering, did he drive to get the girl and lure her out? Was the co-defendant with
him at the time, Natalie Marie Keepers? I mean, did he take the girl somewhere else and she disposed of the body?
What do we know about surveillance cameras, Michael Christian?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): We don`t know a lot, Nancy. We do know that there are some red lights on campus that
apparently have surveillance cameras on them. But it doesn`t look like there`s any toll roads. And also, you could take two interstates very
easily...
GRACE: Michael Christian, no offense, but when is the last time you`ve been in a car? Just be honest, when`s the last time you`ve driven?
CHRISTIAN: Last weekend.
GRACE: Seriously. All right, did you happen to look at a red light? Because most of them, if you`re in a metropolitan area, that is, have
cameras, Michael. So I know there are cameras on campus -- I mean, Martin Savidge, CNN correspondent joining me, also on the story. Martin, I mean,
at red lights, there`s surveillance. How do I know they don`t have the girl in the back seat to be caught on video or caught in a photograph, a
still photograph?
SAVIDGE: Yes, they...
GRACE: This is very important when it comes to the female co-defendant, Marty.
SAVIDGE: And it`s like you`re reading my mind because this is the same conversation I`ve had with others. There has to be video here. I mean,
she lived in an apartment complex. You would start right there and start seeing, All right, is there video of this young girl actually maybe
climbing out of the window of her apartment? Whose vehicle can be seen coming and going around the times of the disappearance?
Then you go through, yes, the whole routes that take you either to the campus or away from the campus, and then everything that gets you down
there to North Carolina. There probably are potentially hundreds of cameras along the way that somehow depicted or captured or have as evidence
some vision of the vehicle or those who were inside.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:23:28]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nicole was a very lovable person. Nicole touched many people throughout her short life.
Coley had a passion for pandas, music, dancing, dreamed of being on "American Idol" some day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My daughter, Nicole Lovell -- Coley is what we called her -- she was born May 3rd, 2002. Shortly thereafter, we started to
notice changes with her abdomen. After many tests and scans and blood work, she was diagnosed with hemangio-nephilioma (ph), a rare tumor in her
liver. At the age of 10 months old, Coley received a liver transplant, fought for her life. After the transplant, she was able to come home at
the age of 1.
Coley tried to live a normal life up until age 4, when she was diagnosed with non-Hodgkins lymphoma. At this point, we almost lost her for the
second time. She fought once again, but after that, it wasn`t enough. Coley developed acute respiratory distress syndrome, ARDS. With the ARDS,
she slipped into a coma for six months, in which time she developed MRSA.
We were advised at that time she would only have a 1 percent chance of survival. Coley once again beat the odds. After eight months in the
hospital, she was released and she started to thrive (ph).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:07]GRACE: After surviving all that, this girl dies at the hands of two pervs, people you`d never suspect, honor students at Virginia Tech
University, track star, NASA intern?
Martin Savidge, CNN correspondent, you said something that really, really set me off, the fact that people are portraying the little girl as some
kind of tramp? This girl just turned 13! All she knows is what she learned on the jungle gym on the playground at elementary school. I don`t
like that one bit!
SAVIDGE: Right. There are a lot of people out there who say, Well, look, if you look at her footprint there on social media, the kind of thing she
was saying, the kind of photos or even just the suggestions or the sites, that in some ways, she was inviting what happened to her. And that is...
GRACE: Awful!
SAVIDGE: ... absolutely wrong. There is no way anybody could excuse that kind of thing.
GRACE: That is so bass-akwards, Martin Savidge. My little girl -- I came in from work and she was on the iPad. I went, What are you looking at? I
ran over there. She was looking at cat videos, of cats doing funny thing on video.
You know, this girl was a 12-year-old girl when she found the Kick app. I mean, Candace Trunzo, what is that? What`s the Kick app, and what are
Virginia Tech students doing on it, talking to a 12-year-old girl, Candace?
CANDACE TRUNZO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): Well, it`s a messaging app. And as far as we`ve been able to investigate, you know, it`s creepy people
who are not identifying themselves, who are out trolling, and probably trolling for sex, trolling for vulnerable young women, young girls who are
lonely, who have bad self-image. And you know, unfortunately, I think that was the case here.
You know, the Kick people say that they`ve been cooperating with police, that they`re handing over any information. But we believe that it was on
this site that they actually met up and communicated with each other.
[20:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Missing mom of two, Nique Leili`s body found unclothed, decomposing under leaves not far from her upscale home she shares with her husband and
two daughters.
She was not reported missing immediately days past. Why? Focus turning on the dad, Nique`s own daughters take to YouTube to defend him.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
NIQUE LEILI, VICTIM: Get the (BEEP) off. Get off me. Get off me.
MATTHEW LEILI, NIQUE LEILI`S HUSBAND: Stop. Stop.
N. LEILI: I said get off.
M. LEILI: Please stop.
N. LEILI: I said get off. I told you there was one way and only one way to end this.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Mike Duffy standing by on the scene. Mike, what can you tell me about audio tapes?
MIKE DUFFY, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, the court was stunned today. As we heard secret audio recordings from Matthew Leili. Remember, these
recordings were only made available after new technology was discovered to uncover them. In court, we heard screaming, intense profanity and fighting
between Nique and Matthew Leili.
Nikki`s family was obviously torn up as they listened to their loved one in distress. The family was crying, they were shaking, they were holding on to
one another. And they were horrified as they heard Nikki Leili scream repeatedly, "Get off me. Get off me."
GRACE: You know what, let`s go into the courtroom, as those videotapes - as audio tapes are being played.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
N. LEILI: You`re done. We are over. We ...
M. LEILI: Please ...
N. LEILI: No!
M. LEILI: ... do not explode like this.
N. LEILI: We are over. Do you understand me? We are now officially over, thanks to you and your (BEEP). We are over. Consider it over, there`s
nothing left to say. We are over.
M. LEILI: Listen to me.
N. LEILI: We are over.
M. LEILI: The first approach ...
N. LEILI: We are over.
M. LEILI: The first approach ...
N. LEILI: Give me my phone.
M. LEILI: The first approach ...
N. LEILI: Give me my phone.
M. LEILI: The first ...
N. LEILI: I`m not listening to you, do you not get that? Give me my phone.
M. LEILI: Nikki, you are out of control.
N. LEILI: Give me my phone.
M. LEILI: You are out of control.
N. LEILI: Give me my -- so are you. You`re gonna tell me you`re not? Huh? You wanna see how many bruises are gonna show up here tomorrow? Huh?
M. LEILI: Oh, bruises.
N. LEILI: You want -- how much do you wanna bet me? You wanna take bets on it? Huh?
M. LEILI: I never touched you.
N. LEILI: Oh, my (BEEP) God!
M. LEILI: Stop it. Stop it.
N. LEILI: You lying (BEEP).
M. LEILI: The conversation could end in 60 seconds.
N. LEILI: It could end in five if you`d get up. One, two ...
M. LEILI: This is not the way to end this.
N. LEILI: ... three ...
M. LEILI: Please don`t do that.
N. LEILI: ... four, five. Get off.
M. LEILI: Please stop. You`re hurting me. I`m gonna have bruises. Will you stop?
N. LEILI: Get up. Oh, you`re gonna have -- get off (BEEP) off me.
M. LEILI: Look.
N. LEILI: You are physically restraining me. Get the (BEEP) off.
M. LEILI: Please stop.
N. LEILI: Right now.
M. LEILI: Please stop.
N. LEILI: Get (BEEP) off of me right now.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: That is what her family heard in court, just before we go to air. It`s one thing to suspect your daughter, your sister, your mom is being
physically abused, physically and possibly sexually abused, but then to hear her own voice almost from beyond the grave, is a whole other thing.
In addition to Mike Duffy, joining me is Scott Kimbler, a reporter with 106.7. Scott, the whole time when you`re listening to this, you got to keep
this in mind, Scott, he`s the one taping her. He`s taping her, trying to make her look crazy. He`s totally calm in these tapes because she`s saying,
`get the "F" off me, get off me.`
And he`s like, `Stop. This is not the way to handle this.` Why? Because he`s got her pinned to the ground, Scott.
[20:35:00] SCOTT KIMBLER, NEWSRADIO 106.7 REPORTER: He does seem to be talking very calmly, but also saying things that would entice a -- or
exact, rather an emotional response out of her.
So you do see sort of a possibly manipulating sort of thing where he`s doing this as a means of making her angry to further prove his case in
trying to prove that she was crazy, that she was the crazy one, where he`s the calm, cool and collected one.
But again, as you mentioned, he`s holding her down at the time that he`s doing it, according to the tape and according the daughters who overheard
it.
GRACE: Let`s go back in the courtroom.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
N. LEILI: (BEEP). I explicitly said to you, I`m not trying to brush it under. Please be fair to me. Let me be different. Give it a chance. I
begged you to give it a chance. And you wouldn`t do it. I begged you. You didn`t change. I did. You didn`t.
Talking about it like you wanna talk about. There`s nothing but accusations and blame, and gets nobody anywhere but here, and when I try to tell you
that, I try to say don`t do it, don`t do it, don`t do it, you kept on and on and on.
And every (BEEP) one, at least ten times in the past two (BEEP) days that I reached out to you, you kept on and on and on with your (BEEP). And then
wonder why when I walk through that door, I don`t wanna be with you.
Wonder why when you take off out the door after your snarky (BEEP) I don`t wanna go put on outfits and lipstick with you and you wonder why. And then
you wanna blame that on me? (BEEP) you.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Mike Duffy, apparently people in the courtroom were crying where this guy, the husband, he`s got her pinned to the ground and he`s beating
on her. He won`t let her up, he`s audio-taping the whole thing. And then he gets mad at her because she won`t put on makeup and a negligee and have sex
with him? I guess not, Mike Duffy.
DUFFY: Yes, Nancy. And can you imagine being that woman`s family? I mean, their recently deceased daughter being put in that position over and over.
And Nancy, that outfit story, doesn`t it sound remarkably similar to the story he told police?
GRACE: It does. It does, Mike Duffy. Unleash the lawyers, Jeff Gold, New York; Ambrosio Rodriguez, out of L.A.
First to you, Jeff Gold. So, you really believe that anybody in their right mind would buy the story that this is what`s going on behind closed doors
and this guy`s an idiot enough to audiotape it, I guess for his own weird thrill afterwards? And somebody else killed her?
JEFF GOLD, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, we don`t know what happened. All we know is this slender reed that he has sort of a motive, but you want to know
something? There`s nothing really linking him to the crime. And these kind of tapes, if we taped everything behind closed doors in America, you`d hear
all this over and over and over again. It is not evidence that he killed her.
GRACE: That is a lie. That is an outright lie. Because Ambrosio Rodriguez ...
GOLD: Wait a minute. It is not a lie.
GRACE: It is. You would not go ...
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: It`s not a lie.
GRACE: ... into every home in America and hear the husband pinning the wife down.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: That happens much more - much more than we know.
GRACE: That may be true. So what?
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: And it doesn`t -- and it doesn`t result in murder.
GRACE: Were you trying to make the nixes? Somehow, that while in other homes, some home you`re talking about in America where beating takes place,
that woman doesn`t end up dead.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: I didn`t say beating. I said he pinned her down. I got that. Her bruises were ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You differentiate that ...
GOLD: ... from holding her ...
GRACE: ... you differentiate that from a beating?
GOLD: I do.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Holding someone on the ground?
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: I do.
GRACE: Really, how? How`s that?
GOLD: Because people hold each other a lot to try to get their attention. It doesn`t mean they`ll kill?
GRACE: No. No, they don`t. No they don`t. I can`t think of one time since I met my husband in college ...
GOLD: Not to you, maybe ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... that he held me to make me listen.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: We don`t do that. We don`t do that.
GRACE: I guess I could guarantee you this, Ambrosio, he`d put out a hand and pull back a nub. And I think he knows that. So, do you want to refine
Jeff Gold`s response?
AMBROSIO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, look, I think this case is very problematic for the prosecution for several reasons.
GRACE: Oh, really?
RODRIGUEZ: First of all, well, it took so long for them to bring him to trial and to charge him with this murder. I mean, it`s been four years.
That says a lot to me. Look, I`m an ex-prosecutor. I was in homicide for five years. When you wait that long to bring charges, it shows or
demonstrates a weakness in this case, and I think they`re trying to use the fact that they obviously had a very bad relationship.
GRACE: OK. You know, Ambrosio Rodriguez ...
RODRIGUEZ: And as proof -- wait, hold on a second. Just one second, Nancy. As proof that he committed murder. And that`s a bit too much. Look, this
man is obviously obsessed with her with all the ...
GRACE: You said one second.
RODRIGUEZ: ...cameras and all the taping that he did. I know, but I`m a lawyer. And the ...
[20:40:00] GRACE: True, true, true. That`s an excuse for ...
(CROSSTALK)
RODRIGUEZ: So, no, it is a ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... preposity.
RODRIGUEZ: So ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I want to follow up on ...
(CROSSTALK)
RODRIGUEZ: But he was so obsessed with her ...
GRACE: Dr. Ken Redcross is joining me, board-certified Internal Medicine and concierge doctor.
Dr. Redcross, thank you for being with us. Everybody`s talking about how the state waited so long to bring this case to trial. And they can`t
connect him to the murder of the body. Just so you know, the husband`s DNA is found on her leading to an "ag" assault with attempt to rape.
She`s found naked, OK, which means to me that he raped her before he killed her. But to hear Ambrosio Rodriguez and Jeff Gold say you can`t connect
them, what, is he going to get a gold star because her body decomposed before they could get the evidence off of it?
KEN REDCROSS, BOARD-CERTIFIED INTERNAL MEDICINE: Yes. I agree with you on this one, Nancy. this is a -- it`s a little bit easier for me from the
medical side to totally get what you`re saying here.
You know, the medical examiners had some challenges because the body was out there for a while, the temperatures don`t help as far as the
decomposition. But the issue is, it seems as if the examiner felt that she found something that showed that strangulation was a possibility.
That leads me to wonder. Did she find a broken piece of trachea or something along those lines that shows that her neck was actually
compressed? So, I do think it`s important to put this thing together but I would hope that something like the length of time wouldn`t keep us from
really finding who did this.
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: In a bombshell hit, "F.X." series "People Versus O.J. Simpson," we are now learning evidence, damning evidence that the actual O.J. Simpson
murder trial jury never heard. That`s not right. Take a look at the miniseries.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT KARDASHIAN, O.J. SIMPSON`S FRIEND AND DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Juice! O.J. no, please. This is where my daughter sleeps. Come on, O.J., please, do not
kill yourself in Kimmy`s bedroom. Give me the gun. Give me the gun.
Come on. We can beat this thing together. Just -- we all love you. We all love you. Your kids love you. God -- God loves you. Juice. Okay, okay, just
-- you don`t want your kids to grow up with no parents? You want your kids to lose both parents? Come on. Look, it`s A.C. Juice, it`s A.C. Come here,
come here. It`s A.C. Come here. Come here. A.C. is here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God.
KARDASHIAN: (Inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s going on?
KARDASHIAN: Just stay with him. Don`t leave him. I`m getting A.C. Juice, A.C.`s here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is American crime story, "The People v. O.J. Simpson," "F.X. Networks." Joining me in addition to Alan Dershowitz, the defense attorney
on the O.J. Simpson murder trial, and special guest, Fred Goldman, is the father of Ron Goldman, who was brutally murdered by O.J. Simpson along with
Nicole Brown.
Fred Goldman, it`s stunning to me that there`s all this evidence that this jury never heard. There`s O.J. Simpson in Kim Kardashian`s bedroom, for
Pete`s sake, threatening to kill himself, as Kardashian talks him out of it. They never knew that.
FRED GOLDMAN, FATHER OF VICTIM, RON GOLDMAN: Yes, but Nancy, forgive me. Nobody knows that that ever happened. There is no proof of that. The
killer`s in jail and Kardashian is deceased. For all we know, that`s just theatrics. You know, we have to keep in mind, I think, that this series is
fictionalized and we don`t know where the truth ends and the fiction begins.
I think this is one of the places that fiction begins. And honestly, even if that happens, that had no business in the courtroom.
GRACE: Well, to me, it`s indicative of guilt. Because why else would you threaten to kill yourself as you believe police are on the way to arrest
you or to accuse you of murder, why else would you threaten to kill yourself?
I think it`s highly, highly probative. And as far as where that came from, I don`t think that it`s made up. Matt Zarrell, didn`t Kardashian say that
happened?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes. Robert Kardashian told Barbara Walters that that incident did happen.
GRACE: I just find it very, very indicative of guilt. Mike Walker with me, senior editor, "National Enquirer", author of "Out for Blood", who covered
the O.J. Simpson case like we all did every single day. What do you make of it, Mike Walker?
MIKE WALKER, "NATIONAL ENQUIRER" SENIOR EDITOR: Well, what I make of it is, first of all, I thought it was very well done. Jeffrey Toobin`s book did a
good job. I disagree with Mr. Goldman`s theory that it was all fictionalized or partly fictionalized.
I think reporters generally did a pretty good job wrapping up the O.J. Simpson case and I would just again say if you`re worrying about the guilt
or innocence of O.J. Simpson, just ask yourself how many times does a guy cut himself shaving on the very same day, oh, coincidentally that his wife
has cut up.
GRACE: Good point, Mike Walker. You`re seeing American Crime Story, "The People v. O.J. Simpson" from "F.X." Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON, CONVICTED FELON: Oh, see, now, that pisses me off! They got the Juice in handcuffs! I was handcuffed for five seconds! They ain`t got
no other footage of me?
AL COWLINGS, O.J. SIMPSON`S FRIEND: This situation is very worrisome. What`s the lawyer say?
SIMPSON: I don`t know. I don`t even know where the hell Howard is. Hey, where`s Howard, A.C.?!
COWLINGS: I couldn`t find him.
SIMPSON: Well, find him, man, come on!
COWLINGS: We`ve tried.
SIMPSON: I`m drowning over here.
COWLINGS: O.J., you need your counsel.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Robert, are you a lawyer?
KARDASHIAN: Yes. Well, I used to be, but not criminal. O.J., is it, is it impolite to ask?
SIMPSON: No, man, talk to me.
KARDASHIAN: I mean, what is - what is Howard`s game plan?
SIMPSON: I don`t know what Howard`s -- that`s what I keep telling you.
[20:50:00] KARDASHIAN: I mean, why`d he let you get cuffed like that?!
SIMPSON: That`s what I`m saying! Why was I cuffed on ...? And now it`s all over TV!
KARDASHIAN: Not only that, why did he let you get interviewed?
SIMPSON: Whatever they asked me, I talked to them! `Cause I told them I had nothing to hide! What do I got to hide?! Juice ain`t got nothing to hide!
KARDASHIAN: Why in the hell were you in there alone?
SIMPSON: I don`t know, man. I don`t ... these are good questions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s American Crime Story, "The People v. O.J. Simpson" from "F.X. Networks" and joining me right now, in addition to Fred Goldman, Ron
Goldman`s father, Alan Dershowitz, same defense attorney here was on the so-called "Dream Team." Alan, no offense, but you know, I`ve never really
used the term "Dream Team" when it comes to defending O.J.
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR SIMPSON DURING MURDER TRIAL: I hate that term. I think it was a "Nightmare Team." The lawyers didn`t get along
with each other.
For example, on the show it shows that O.J. ma have failed a lie detector test. How could that have come out unless one of the lawyers revealed it,
and that would be in violation of the Code of Professional Responsibility.
If Kardashian, in fact, told people about the suicide, I didn`t know about that. That would be in violation of the Code of Professional
Responsibility.
This was not a great legal defense team. We didn`t win the case. The Prosecution lost it. They lost it by the foolish ploy of trying to glove on
in front of the jury without having O.J. try it on first, which they could have done in privacy without the jury seeing it.
They lost it because they put an evidence of sock which it turned out had blood, had EDTA which is an anticoagulant that doesn`t exist in the human
body but the existing (ph) test tubes. So, it wasn`t that there wasn`t enough evidence, there was too much evidence.
What I think happened is the prosecutors and the police honestly believe that O.J. Simpson did it. They honestly believe that but they thought he`d
get away with it. And so they tried to frame what they believe was a guilty person.
GRACE: Alan, Alan, the framing argument ...
(CROSSTALK)
DERSHOWITZ: And then reporting the process and the jury, including white jurors and black jurors, decided that if some of the evidence was fake,
they couldn`t really either rely on the other evidence. Well, they didn`t want to reward the faking of evidence. So there was jury nullification but
it wasn`t just reasonable nullification ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I`m not, Dershowitz, worth the explaining O.J. Simpson thing. Some of what you`re saying, though, I do agree with. Tiffany Sanders,
psychologist, I can`t help but feel very cheated. I feel like w got kicked in the stomach because there`s so much evidence that the jury never knew
about -- damning evidence.
TIFFANY SANDERS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Right. And you know honestly, at that period of time, the jurors needed as much evidence as they could to determine
whether O.J. Simpson was actually guilty. and many of us really felt in our hearts that he was guilty but without true evidence, it was very difficult
to make that decision.
[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: He`s known as "America`s dad," but comedian Bill Cosby the target of multiple police investigations for molesting nearly 50 women who swear Bill
Cosby sexually assaulted them in the last hours. He`s not so funny anymore. Bill Cosby in a court of law. Is he headed to jail?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANICE DICKINSON, COSBY ACCUSER: I woke up the next morning after Bill Cosby mounted me, had sex with me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... and over his shoulder, grabbing my breasts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Jean Casarez, CNN correspondent, on the scene at the courtroom. Jean what`s this hearing all about with Cosby in the courtroom?
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: All right, Nancy, this is what the issue has been. The defense is saying that Bruce Castor, the district attorney in
2005 that elected to not bring criminal charges against Bill Cosby, that he made a promise to Bill Cosby that he would never prosecute him here in
Montgomery County in regard to Andrea Constand.
Now, Bruce Castor was the star witness who puts to stand (ph) to the defense and he said the reason he made that decision was that Andrea
Constand`s case was very weak.
GRACE: OK, Liz, let me see exactly what he said in the deposition. This is what they`re using to finally nail him.
Excerpts from Deposition
LAWYER: "When you got the Quaaludes, Bill Cosby, was it in your mind that you were going to use them for young women that you wanted to have sex
with?
COSBY: Oh, yes. I went upstairs. I went in my pack, I broke a Quaalude, a whole one, brought half down and told her to take it. Your friends, I have
three friends to make you relax.
LAWYER: What did you tell Andrea?
COSBY: I said these are three friends.
LAWYER: Why did you call them friends?
COSBY: Because they might take away some stress and tension.
I asked her to have a sit down on the sofa, talking, began to neck, touch, we began to feel and kiss and kiss back. I opened my top.
This is the deposition, people. This is what Bill Cosby says under oath. She makes it sound like, I think, was an orgasm -- what?!
Jeff Gold, the woman has been fed Quaaludes. And he is saying in sworn deposition? He thinks she`s having an orgasm? She`s out like a light.
GOLD: Yes. I mean, I don`t know about that
But I would say this about this whole immunity thing ...
GRACE: You don`t know about a Quaalude?
GOLD: No, I don`t know ...
GRACE: You don`t know they knock you out?
GOLD: I don`t know what happened there, Nancy. But I do know that he may have at least used immunity even if not a full immunity so that this
deposition can`t be used against him if nothing else.
GRACE: Let`s remember, American hero, Marine Lance Corporal Jeremy Tamburello, just 19. Denver. Purple Heart. Remembered for compassion and
bravery. Parents, Kevin and Lenora. Brother, Daniel. Sister, Monica. Jeremy Tamburello, American hero.
Thank you to our guests, especially you for being with us. Nancy Grace, signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp, Eastern, and
until then, good night, friends.
[21:00:00]
END
