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Nancy Grace
Seattle Mom Dismembered with 15-Inch Saw; Father and Daughter Couple Show Off Baby on TV; Liz Minnelli`s Husband Found Dead. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired April 13, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, a mom of three dips her toe back into the dating scene. It all ends in tragedy. The mom of three goes on
an on-line date to a Mariners game with a 37-year-old dream man. That missing mom found dead in a local recycling bin, her remains wrapped in
plastic bags and quote, "still fresh," recovered just two miles from Mariners stadium.
Bombshell tonight. We go inside the investigation and learn bits of human flesh, blood, a 15-inch pruning saw in the mom`s own bathroom. What madman
masquerades as normal on dating Web sites, then commits murder?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Body parts wrapped in plastic inside a recycling bin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mother of three with a date she met on line.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shocking new evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Murdered inside her own home, pieces of human flesh and blood in the bathtub drain. Near the tub, a pruning saw.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A father and daughter couple confess to an illegal relationship, even showing off their baby on TV here from "60 Minutes" and 9 Network,
while another father-daughter couple lose custody of their second baby together, demanding the court overrule the decision, declaring, We`ve done
nothing wrong. But the shocker here, it`s legal in the U.S.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A father and his biological daughter have a steamy affair and have two children. They both claim on "60 Minutes" that they`re
just a normal happy family.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a normal sexual, loving couple relationship.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re just a normal happy family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s "60 Minutes" and 9 Network.
Superstar Liza Minnelli`s husband, close confidant of Elizabeth Taylor and Michael Jackson, producer, reality TV celeb found dead in the five-star
luxury Four Seasons hotel. What exactly is the cause of death? Autopsy now.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. A mom of three dips her toe back into the dating scene. It all ends in tragedy. The mom goes on an on-line date to a Mariners game
with a 37-year-old dream man, the missing mom found dead in a local recycling bin, her remains wrapped in plastic bags and, quote, "still
fresh," recovered just two miles from Mariner stadium.
Tonight, inside the investigation. We learn bits of human flesh, blood and a 15-inch pruning saw in the mom`s own bathroom. What madman masquerades
as normal on dating Web sites and then commits murder, much less dismemberment?
But right now, we`re going inside the courtroom where the suspect is in court. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The CSI unit of the Seattle Police Department found bits of human flesh and blood in the bathtub drain, in the same bathtub,
where the saw was standing near the tub in the victim`s home. Also, last night, her vehicle was located in downtown Seattle. It appears that she
was murdered in the home and transported, you know, in her own car to Seattle. The body parts were found in Seattle. He admits to being with
her.
It is clear from what we know at this time that this was a very brutal crime that occurred, appears to have occurred in the home. It is clear
from the probable cause certification he admits to being with her, claims some lack of memory, but remembers landing in downtown Seattle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We have obtained the probable cause document.
Out to Pat Lalama, managing editor, "Crime Watch Daily." So what I am gathering is this all occurred in her home. That explains why her purse
and cell phone were in her home. That had troubled me from the beginning. And apparently, this guy takes her car and leaves it in downtown Seattle,
hoping somebody will steal it.
And you know, Pat Lalama, that person that would steal that car unwittingly would have been pegged with this murder.
PAT LALAMA, "CRIME WATCH DAILY": Yes, it sounds like there was a real mechanism to the madness here. The probable cause statement, as you say,
revealed so much. We know that the last time she made any kind of communication with people was at 10:35, and then after that, they think he
did it in the home.
[20:05:04]GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Troy Slaten and Mindy Smith. Also with me, Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator.
So Troy Slaten, did he bring the saw with him? Because what he is saying is they go to the game, and then he has so much to drink, he doesn`t
remember anything. But he can remember that he had sex with her and that she was acting, quote, "weird." What about that?
TROY SLATEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, this may be a situation where he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. There has been no forensic evidence
that has linked him to this crime.
GRACE: That`s not true. That`s not true.
SLATEN: Yes.
GRACE: No, that`s not true.
SLATEN: It was gruesome -- yes.
GRACE: That`s not true.
SLATEN: Nancy, they found stuff...
GRACE: The defense attorney...
SLATEN: ... in the drain...
GRACE: The defense attorney in court said nothing links them forensically. That`s because the stuff hasn`t been tested yet.
SLATEN: OK, so that there`s been...
GRACE: That doesn`t mean it doesn`t exist!
SLATEN: ... no evidence that`s been revealed -- there`s been nothing revealed that links him specifically to this murder.
GRACE: OK.
SLATEN: I mean, he may have left her. He may have been -- you know, slept on that sidewalk in downtown Seattle, like he said he was, and had nothing
to do with this.
GRACE: OK, you know what?
SLATEN: And yes, he may have been the last person to see her that we know of, but that doesn`t mean that he`s guilty of murder.
GRACE: Let`s take a look at the tears from the probable cause warrant. "Complainant returned home, taking his garbage and recycling cans, noticed
weight in the bottom of the container and emptied the contents." Three plastic bags, translucent, he could see a foot in one of the bags. An
examination revealed the bags contained a human head and arm and a hand, a leg and a foot.
Whoa! Wait a minute. So hold on. Where`s the rest of the body, Pat Lalama? We`ve got a head, an arm and a foot. Are they looking for the
rest of this woman`s remains?
LALAMA: You bet, the FBI now involved looking for those very pieces of her body. Where could they be and why?
GRACE: OK, let`s take a look at him coming in court. Now, the judge today would not allow us to see his face. Take a look at what we were allowed to
show you.
The judge wants to protect him. What about her? What about the mother, Ingrid, the mother with an 8-year-old, a 9-year-old and a 12-year-old
little girl? She goes out on a date. She was divorced in 2014. She goes out on a date with a guy she meets on line. Next thing you know, flesh and
blood in her bathtub drain, a saw, a pruning saw in her bathroom. That`s not normal.
The last guy she`s with, this guy, she meets on line. And after a lot of digging last night, we`re finally able to show you his face. Let`s take a
look at John Robert Charlton, age 37. We discovered he is on numerous dating Web sites. Take a look at this. According -- hold that picture,
please. According to dating profile experts, you are supposed to look fun, funny, like you`d have a good time on a date. And that is how he portrayed
himself on line.
So she goes out with fun, funny -- he even describes himself as mellow and quiet. She`s dead, and we`re still looking for the rest of her body.
To Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host. He followed all the rules of luring somebody in on line. Now she`s dead, and he says he can`t remember
what happened?
DAVE MACK, SYNDICATED TALK SHOW HOST (via telephone): Absolutely. And Nancy, you know, one of the tip-offs here is that when they made contact
with him on Saturday -- Ingrid`s mom texted him and he said, 911? What`s going on? We went to a Mariners game last night, but we didn`t stay
together because she was having her kids.
Now, the last thing they wrote to him was, She`s missing. What time did you last see her? A police officer needs to speak with you. He never
responded again, Nancy. This guy was just a predator waiting for prey!
GRACE: And the way the mom, the victim`s mom, found this, she looks at her daughter`s cell phone and sees all these messages and calls to this one
number, and it`s him, Charlton. And he says, 911? What? We went to the Mariners game last night. But we didn`t stay together because she has her
children today. Not sure what she`s told you about our relationship. Mom -- She`s missing. When did you see her? A police officer needs to speak
to you. Please call. And guess what? He never calls back.
Unleash the lawyers, Troy Slaten and Mindy Smith. What about that, Smith? He never bothers to call back?
[20:10:02]MINDY SMITH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, maybe he didn`t want to talk to her mother. Maybe he didn`t know anything had happened.
GRACE: Why?
SMITH: Maybe he assumed...
GRACE: She just -- the mom just said she`s missing.
SMITH: Well, he didn`t know the circumstances. It`s not unusual for someone not to respond to a message as quickly as the other person thinks
that they should respond.
GRACE: How about ever? Is that fast enough, never?
SMITH: I`m sure that by the time she notified the police, that the police got to him before he has a chance to respond. It`s not unusual for someone
to go two or three hours without responding to a message.
GRACE: OK, let`s take a look at the next probable cause tear. We`ve obtained the probable cause warrant. Detectives obtain judicial permission
to conduct a search of Ingrid`s residence. They find swabs of suspected blood in the kitchen. Investigators discovered a nearly empty box of
plastic garbage bags. The bags appear identical in color and size to the bags in which Ingrid`s body has been found. In the bathroom the residence
-- of the residence, detectives find a 15-inch pruning saw. Relatives report to detectives the saw was not normally in the bathroom.
You know what? Isn`t it true -- to Justin Freiman -- that this guy`s own parents once took out a restraining order against him? And he -- they
bring up Hannibal Lecter. Do you remember that, Justin? What can you tell us about that?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right.
GRACE: Can you pull up that sound, Liz, please?
FREIMAN: The reports are that they did exactly that. They were afraid of him. They said he was acting strangely. He was -- he was threatening them
and said to them, Watch this movie, "Hannibal"...
GRACE: OK, let`s see what he`s talking about, Justin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You see a lot (INAUDIBLE) but are you strong enough to point that high-powered perception at yourself? What about (INAUDIBLE)
Why don`t you look at yourself right now, what you see? Maybe you`re afraid to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s from "Silence of the Lambs," Strongart (ph) Demi (ph) Production, Orion.
So let me understand this, Pat Lalama, "Crime Watch Daily." He to his own mother takes out the DVD and holds it and says, Hey, watch this, Mom.
You`re warned. And it`s "Silence of the Lambs."
LALAMA: Yes, and he actually uses the word "beware." And his father has also stated that he talked about having increased, escalating emotional
issues, pressure. He felt that he was becoming out of control.
GRACE: Let`s take another look at this guy in court. He looks very different than he does on his dating sites. There he is shackled feet,
waist and shoes -- and ankles, a lot different than he does on Plenty of Fish and Mingles 2. But this isn`t the man she fell for. This is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:17:29]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The loss of the mother of three is felt by many in this small community.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shocking new evidence found at Ingrid Lyne`s Renton home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bits of human flesh and blood in the bathtub drain in the victim`s home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The head and foot helped investigators identify Lyne as the victim.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So it sounds as if this mom of three is killed in her own home. So how does her body end up miles away and in an unknown person`s recycling
bin? And also Liz, I find it difficult to believe -- and I`m sure the defense attorneys are going to argue with me -- that this is his first time
at the rodeo because you don`t graduate from nothing to dismembering a mother of three and dumping her body.
Could you please show me the other missing women in that area down on the right? That`s what I want to see.
A mom of three goes on an on-line date. Her body has been found. According to witnesses, it was, quote, "still fresh," dumped in somebody
else`s recycling bin. Now we learn a 15-inch saw has been found, blood, flesh in her bathtub drain.
This is out of your worst nightmare. This was supposed to be a date to a Mariners game. I`m very curious how he portrayed himself on on-line
dating.
Justin Freiman, what do cops think is the timeline?
FREIMAN: Nancy, the last anybody seems to have heard from here was around 10:30 when she gets a text over to her friend saying that she`s on a date.
The game started around 7:00 o`clock.
At some point she has to then end up at her home. And then the next morning, Saturday morning, when the father comes to drop off the children,
she isn`t there and neither is her van. So we know whatever went down had to happen, sometime late Friday night or in the early morning hours of
Saturday.
GRACE: You know, Pat Lalama, let`s think this through. So if she goes at about 7:00 and she`s heard from around 10:00, he had a period of between
10:00 and the next morning to do all of this, right?
LALAMA: Of course.
GRACE: So that`s when it all occurred.
LALAMA: That`s -- there`s no other option, unless you want to blame it on her ex, which is highly unlikely.
GRACE: OK, hold on.
LALAMA: But it seems...
GRACE: Hold on. Pat, I`m going to come right back to you. Joe Scott Morgan just joining me right now, death investigator, professor of
forensics, Jacksonville State University.
[20:20:06]You know, think about it, Joe Scott. Think. Let me see the mockup of the weapon, please. When police got to him, he was -- oh, there
you go -- bruised and had scratches on him. Tell me the kind of force necessary to dismember a body, Joe Scott.
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Nancy, let me tell you something. This is not something that is done in a very short period of
time. In the morgue, we have a long period of time to work with bodies. When you`re using a saw and you`re not used to doing this...
GRACE: Let me see the saw, please.
MORGAN: Yes. Sure. When you`re not used to using a saw to dismember a body, it takes an extended period of time to do this because you`re having
to cut through not just skin, but all the way through the bone. Do it would take hours and hours.
And you have to know where to cut. You have to get the body down into manageable pieces. It`s very interesting that they found the smaller
peripheral pieces, but yet they still have yet to find the torso. And that`s the difficult thing here. You have to get rid of the torso. It
takes a long time to saw through bone. So he`s distributed the body.
My thought is, is that he needed privacy. He thought enough at least to go into the bathroom, or whoever did this, to go into the bathroom so that
they could clean up. The trap or the drain in the bathtub itself is going to be key here, Nancy, and also the teeth on the saw because they`re going
to hold a lot of evidence. There`s going to be hair, bone, skin, blood, even muscle tissue that`s going to be caught up in the blade of the saw,
even if he tried to wash it, and also in the drain itself.
They will take this thing apart piece by piece. I know because I`ve worked cases like this. And they will go over every inch of it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:50]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Renton mom Ingrid Lyne disappeared after a Mariners game.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her remains discovered in plastic bags in a recycling bin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a very brutal crime that occurred.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Inside the victim`s home...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears that she was murdered in the home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... pieces of human flesh and blood in the bathtub drain. They also found a pruning saw.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say the victim was murdered inside her own home, then the suspect took her remains to Seattle, where he later
parked the victim`s SUV in Belltown (ph). When Charlton was arrested, detectives said he had cuts on his forehead, an injury to his lip and chin
and scratches on his chest.
Today, detectives returned to the central district with K-9 units search for more evidence, just to be sure they didn`t miss anything. They also
searched the area in Belltown where Lyne`s car was found. They`re hoping to find surveillance video.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, I`m just wondering, as far as his defense goes, where he is claiming he doesn`t remember anything, that he remembers the sex and
that she was acting weird, and that`s all he remembers because he was so drunk. Wow! You remember the sex, but you don`t remember the murder.
Justin, maybe he could remember the abrasions on his forehead and lip? What were his injuries?
FREIMAN: That`s right, Nancy. He has abrasions and scratches on his forehead, on his lip, on his hand, on his chest. So I think it`s going to
be very interesting to see -- one of the body parts found was her hand. So it`s going to be very interesting to find out just what is on her
fingernails.
GRACE: Interesting, interesting, Justin Freiman, that her hand has been found. He has scratches. Will his DNA be under (ph) her hand? And as of
tonight, the rest of the body has still not been recovered.
I`m curious, Justin. What do we know about his on-line dating profiles on Plenty of Fish and Mingles 2, to name two of them? Could we see those,
please, Liz?
FREIMAN: Right. He tries to show himself as being a really funny type person.
GRACE: Oh, wait a minute! He`s a nonsmoker. OK, that`s a plus. Go ahead.
FREIMAN: He also goes on to say that he`s -- he`s not really here for dating, only friendships, and that it`s not just some scam of his. So he
seems to be somebody that somebody would, hopefully, be trustworthy of going out with.
GRACE: Well, specifically, he says, "This is not a scam to get laid." He describes himself as quiet and mellow. He just wants to make friends.
Joining me, neuropsychologist Sanam Hafeez. Dr. Hafeez, question to you. How do you go about pulling off this profile, luring people in, going on a
date, and according to prosecutors, killed and dismembered her?
SANAM HAFEEZ, NEUROPSYCHOLOGIST: I mean, I think that, you know, people who want to be charming can really pull it off on line because you can
really say anything. You don`t have to be a Capricorn. You don`t have to be 37. You can say whatever it takes. and the more easygoing and laid-
back you seem, the easier the chances are of luring someone in because the more intense you seem or the more detail you give about yourself, people
are going to Google you. They`re going to maybe say, Hey, do you know this guy? And it`s easier to find.
GRACE: You know, another thing. How do these little girls ever go back in their home? Every time they walk past the bathroom, they`re going to think
about Mommy`s flesh and blood in the drain. I guarantee you right now, police are tearing that drain apart.
Ben Levitan joining me, telecommunications expert. Ben, since this guy can`t remember anything -- you know, after she goes missing, he makes a
post from Facebook. Can I figure out where he was when he posted that?
BEN LEVITAN TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT (via telephone): Yes, Nancy. Facebook is going to tell us exactly where -- he likely accessed that from
his phone.
But Nancy, you said something interesting. You said it`s probably not his first time at the rodeo. Well, you look at this phone. I looked up his
phone. His phone is from Great Falls, Montana. That`s where he bought that phone, 650 miles away.
[20:30:00] Maybe we ought to be looking at missing women in Montana and not necessarily Seattle.
GRACE: Explain, Ben Levitan. Explain to me what you`re saying.
LEVITAN: Well, we know his phone number, we know the phone number that Ingrid was communicating with. And I went into some industry databases here
and found out where and that phone turns out to be an AT&T phone.
The phone was originally turned on in Great Falls, Montana. And doing a little more research, apparently he`s had some issues in Montana. So I
think we need to look at that. That`s 650 miles away, Nancy.
What motivated him to move to Seattle or was he running? So, this could be a whole new crop of communication here. But the point is, from his cell
phone, we know where he was for the last seven years, Nancy. That`s how long AT&T keeps his records that will basically pinpoint his location every
time he made a call or used his phone.
[20:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A father and daughter couple -- father and daughter couple confess to an illegal relationship, even showing off their baby on T.V. Here is a
scene from "60 Minutes" and "Nine Network."
While another father-daughter couple loses custody of their second baby together, demanding the court overrule that decision declaring, "We`ve done
nothing wrong." But the real shocker here, it`s legal in the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jenny was meeting her dad for only the third time in her life. Despite being fully aware of their blood ties, an attraction grew
between them.
JENNY DEAVES, INVOLVED IN INCESTUOUS RELATIONSHIP WITH HER FATHER: Yeah, I was thinking that it`s sort of going, oh, he`s not too bad.
JOHN DEAVES, INVOLVED IN INCESTUOUS RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS DAUGHTER: Of course I knew it`s illegal, but, you know. So what?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So what? That`s from "60 Minutes" and "Nine Network". Chris Spargo, reported, dailymail.com. So what? We`re talking about a father and a
daughter in that scenario and they`re actually showing their baby off on T.V.
Not only that, an Oregon couple that has two children together has had the children removed from their home, put in foster care with severe genetic
defects and they`re appealing it. Long story short, they`re saying we`re doing nothing wrong.
Chris Spargo, what is happening?
CHRIS SPARGO, DAILYMAIL.COM REPORTER: Well, both cases are in some ways very similar. In the Australian case, you have a father and daughter who
were estranged for a long period of time, came back together then said they fell in love, had two children together, one of their children died shortly
after birth.
The Oregon couple, same thing. They`ve been estranged for most of their lives. They come back into each other`s lives. They got pregnant, they have
the children, and now this Oregon couple is arguing to try and get their children back.
GRACE: you know, interesting about that, to Joe Scott Morgan joining me, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State. The reason the first baby died
is very likely because of a genetic problem. When you have -- we`re talking about adult incest. When you have a father and daughter marry and have
children, what are the potential genetic fallout?
MORGAN: Well, there`s any number of problems, Nancy. Let`s think of it this way, if you think of a bull`s eye, the further out you move from the bull`s
eye, the safer you are.
When you start to get to first cousins, children -- this sort of thing, it becomes more dangerous. You have things like cleft palate that will come
along, the trisomy defects like Down`s, these sorts of things.
You`ll have children that will be missing limbs or children with blindness. All these kinds of things they bring about this mutation of genes. They
bring out recessive genes that have been kind of pressed down genetically.
GRACE: So, you`re saying Down`s, blindness, missing limbs, drastic deformations or even death. Listen to this couple who shows off their baby
on T.V.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you go looking for your father?
JENNY DEAVES: I had children. And I hadn`t -- I felt as though he needed to be part of their lives as their grandfather.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the meeting like with John, your father?
JENNY DEAVES: It was like meeting a man. It was just like -- although I knew that he was my father, it was like, when I met him, I met John. I met
a man, I met another adult.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At the age of 31, Jenny was meeting her dad for only the third time in her life. Despite being fully aware of their blood ties, an
attraction grew between them.
JENNY DEAVES: After being here quite a few times, I started to notice my feelings were changing and that I was seeing him as a man, as a person, as
somebody who was loving, caring, who - like, yeah, I was thinking that it`s sort of going, oh, he`s not too bad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That from "60 Minutes and Nine Network". Now here is the kicker. This is legal in the U.S. I`m talking -- Stacey, give me the states where
this is legal that we know of?
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, we dug up and you see here, Rhode Island and New Jersey apparently incest is legal in those states. And
we also found out in Ohio, it`s only illegal if you marry a parent. So, it`s kind of a gray line in Ohio as well.
[20:40:00] GRACE: So, Ohio you can have relations with your relative, but then if you marry, then that`s wrong. Joining me right now is Barbara
Gonyo, author and expert and a very unusual syndrome called GSA. Barbara Gonyo, thank you for being with us. What is GSA?
BARBARA GONYO, AUTHOR AND EXPERT: It stands for Genetic Sexual Attraction. And it`s kind of a hard thing to explain because people say what -- what is
Genetic Sexual Attraction? And it`s what happens when people are separated and reunited and haven`t had a chance to do any bonding and then they
become involved further than they should get involved.
GRACE: Barbara, what`s so amazing to me is that this is actually condoned in multiple jurisdictions in the U.S. What brought it to the forefront is a
recent story about a 51-year-old mother who reconnects with a 32-year-old son she gave up for adoption. She breaks up his marriage and now they`re
trying to have a baby together.
Unleash the lawyers, Troy Slaten and Mindy Smith. Troy Slaten, a 51-year- old mother? Reconnects with her adopted son? She breaks up the marriage? I mean, how can this be legal in the United States?
SLATEN: You know, between consenting adults, who is the government and who are we to say who should be doing what? As long as they`re not getting
married ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Oh, ok.
SLATEN: ... or potentially having children.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Then why don`t we go ahead and legalize crack, cocaine and methamphetamine? What about that?
SLATEN: You know, as long as you`re not - as long as somebody`s not hurting a child in this situation, then it`s really, I think, none of our business
...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Really?
SLATEN: ... what consenting adults are doing in their own bedroom.
GRACE: Did you hear about an Oregon baby that`s dead? And the next baby with drastic deformations. Did you hear that?
SLATEN: Yes, that`s horrible. You know, it`s not something, I`m not going on advocating. It`s not something that they should be doing, but I`m just
saying that the government shouldn`t be getting involved. As long as it`s an adult and no child is being endangered.
GRACE: Mindy Smith, why are you shaking your head, yes?
SMITH: Because those are two separate issues. With the Oregon situation, first you have to look at the incest, and that goes state by state. In the
situation with the Michigan couple, if they get married, that is illegal and it`s a class three felony. And both parties could face ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Ok, you know, Mindy, you`re giving me a bunch of legal goo. The reality is, it allows them to have relations, but not marry. You too were
saying nobody gets hurt. That`s not true. By your line of thinking we should legalize crack cocaine and methamphetamine. Listen to this from "60
Minutes and Nine News".
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t think it was wrong, let alone illegal to be in a sexual relationship with your daughter?
JOHN DEAVES: Initially, yes, but emotions take over, as people no doubt realize, there are times during your life where emotions do rule the heart,
it rules the head. And I knew it was illegal, of course I knew it was illegal, but you know, so what?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Superstar Liza Minnelli`s husband, confidant of Elizabeth Taylor and Michael Jackson, reality T.V. celeb, found dead in the five-star luxury
Four Seasons Hotel. What exactly is the cause of death? Autopsy now.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police arrived at the scene following reports of an unexplained death and discovered Gest`s body. Most remembered Gest from his
star-studded wedding to Liza Minnelli with Michael Jackson serving his best man and Elizabeth Taylor, the maid of honor.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: David Gest, the husband - the ex of Liza Minnelli has been found dead in the Four Seasons Hotel. Candace Trunzo, Senior News Editor,
dailymail.com. How was his body found? Why was anyone alerted to go into the hotel room?
CANDACE TRUNZO, DAILYMAIL.COM SENIOR NEWS EDITOR: You know, this is the big mystery. We`re not exactly sure exactly who found him, how he was found. We
know that hotel security was called that there was a problem, that EMS, emergency services were called, police were called and they found him dead.
It`s unexplained at this moment.
GRACE: Right now, the autopsy ongoing for Liza Minnelli`s ex. Reality star. Take a listen to David Gest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID GEST, BODY FOUND IN FOUR SEASONS HOTEL: We just had a wedding. We got over a thousand gifts. We do not need silverware, and we have enough silver
to serve everybody without toasters.
(CROSSTALK)
GEST: We got everything.
(CROSSTALK)
GEST: Sylvia`s supplied the silverware and the foodware. And, you know, there may be 250 a plate. She has a good sense of plate. We even have one
that was left over. There was not fine China, it was regular -- regular, everyday China that was served that they do at Sylvia`s.
It was going sort of smoothly. The problem was, they took over our house, they never told us they were going to build a studio inside of our house.
It was never in our contract to build the studio, and they went and they knocked.
LARRY KING, LARRY KING LIVE SHOW HOST: When this started did you say what you ...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:50:00] GRACE: For those of you just joining us, the husband -- the ex of Liza Minnelli found dead in a five-star Four Seasons luxury hotel. Right
now, we don`t know why staff was alerted. But we do know an autopsy being performed. Joe Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State,
what happens in the autopsy? What are they looking for in the autopsy?
MORGAN: They`re going to be looking for signs, first off to make sure there`s no trauma externally visibly on the body. They are also going to be
checking his blood work to see if there are any drugs on board, whatsoever. They want to check primarily to see what kind of natural diseases might
have been at work here.
GRACE: There, you are seeing David Gest with Liza Minnelli. His close friend, Elizabeth Taylor and Michael Jackson as well. Gest moving in star-
studded circles. So, another guest with us tonight, Tiffany Pollard, the housemate as he is on Celebrity Big Brother, star of "I Love New York."
What can you tell us about Gest? What was he like?
TIFFANY POLLARD, CELEBRITY BIG BROTHER HOUSEMATE: Hello Nancy. First of all, I want to say it is a pleasure and an honor to be able to speak with
you and to be on your broadcast tonight.
I just want to say that David Gest was one of the nicest men that I could ever meet. You know, upon entering the Celebrity Big Brother house, he met
me with open arms. You know, he made it a point to tell everyone in the house that I`m someone to reckon with.
And you know, I was feeling quite alone in the house. And when David entered, you know, he just really, really thought it was important to tell
everyone that, hey, this girl is in the U.S. She`s making waves for herself and she`s a force to be reckoned with.
So he was just -- just such a kind man. He really went out of his way to make me feel comfortable in Celebrity Big Brother house.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: With me is Tiffany Pollard from "Celebrity Big Brother." Sue Moss is joining us, New York attorney who was Gest`s former attorney.
Sue moss, one of the things your former client is known for are the allegations between him and Liza Minnelli before they split. With him
actually claiming she attacked him. I believe we`ve got terrors (ph) of that. Sue Moss, what`s your reaction?
SUSAN MOSS, DAVID GEST`S FORMER ATTORNEY: Right. I can`t talk about the specifics of the case but I just want to reiterate that David was truly,
truly a kind soul and he was a great entertainer.
This was a guy who honestly, truly cared about others. And you are hearing all of this affection from his friends and people coming out and making
these statements because we truly lost a really good man and a really caring guy.
[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The former husband of entertainment icon Liza Minnelli has been found dead at a five-star hotel. The sister of David Gest confirms
his body was found at the Four Seasons Hotel on Tuesday morning.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Superstar Liza Minnelli`s ex, the reality celeb has been found dead. Right now, the autopsy ongoing. What is the cause of death? Now Matt
Zarrell, many people know Gest through Michael Jackson, correct?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes. He actually produced what`s considered the highest-rated musical T.V. special in history, was Michael
Jackson, the 30th Anniversary celebration, The Solo Years.
This was actually the last time that Jackson performed with his brothers on stage. So, this was very, very highly rated. He also produced a documentary
"Michael Jackson, The Life of an Icon" just a couple of years ago.
GRACE: Right now, you are seeing YouTube`s Michael Jackson 30th Anniversary celeb concert, produced by David Gest. So Matt, is this -- is this what
makes him so well known or is it being married to Liza Minnelli?
ZARRELL: Well, what`s interesting here is that from reports is that he actually hired Liza to perform as part of this concert before they had
started dating and then Michael Jackson was the one who introduced him to Liza Minnelli.
GRACE: Candace Trunzo, we`ve been showing clips of him on Larry King with then-wife Liza Minnelli. Liz, let me know if you can pull the rest of that
up. So Candace, we don`t know why the hotel staff was called to the room, but we do know that an autopsy is being performed. Why?
TRUNZO: Yes. An autopsy is being performed because nobody knows at this point why he died. It is unexplained. What we do know is this, though. He
was on Celebrity Big Brother. He was doing really well. I mean, the British loved him as a reality star but he left in January because of ill health.
So, something was going on in January and it may -- it may, in the end, explain exactly what happened to him.
GRACE: But Joe Scott Morgan, when you die of natural causes is there typically an autopsy? That`s Celebrity Big Brother from Bazal Productions
of BBC. What about it Joe Scott?
MORGAN: Yeah, Nancy. Commonly, many jurisdictions use this principle, this idea of being found dead. This was not a witnessed death, so it`s not
beyond the pale that an autopsy or at least an external examination would be performed as an adjunct to drawing tox as well.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s remember American hero, Ohio Police Officer Steven Smith. Killed in the line of duty. Columbus Police, SWAT, Narcotics.
Returned to duty after being shot in 2013. Will save multiple lives as an organ donor. Widow, Lisa; children, Jessie and Brittany. Steven Smith,
American Hero.
"Forensic Files" next. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace, signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8
o`clock sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
[21:00:00]
END
