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Nancy Grace
Dismemberment Case Developments; Examination of Psychopathic Behavior; . Aired 8-9p ET
Aired April 14, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A mom of three dips her toe back into the dating scene. It ends in tragedy. She goes on an on-line
date to a Mariners game with a 30-year-old dream man. She`s found dead in a local recycling bin, her remains wrapped in plastic, quote, "still
fresh," bits of human flesh found in the mom`s own bathtub drain. What madman masquerades as normal on a dating Web site, then commits murder?
Bombshell tonight. At this hour, another girlfriend emerging. Does she hold a piece of the puzzle? But tonight, did police get the wrong guy?
Claims there`s no forensic link between the on-line date and the dead mom, that he made no attempt to run. And just going on a date does not a murder
make. This as police dismantling the dead mom`s bathroom plumbing. And will the bar code on a baseball ticket unlock the key to the mystery?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Accused of killing Ingrid Lyne after a date, dismembering the mother of three at her home, then leaving her partial
remains in a Seattle recycle bin, grisly murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bits of human flesh and blood in the bathtub drain.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 15-inch pruning saw recovered near the bathtub.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Claims he got so drunk after taking her to the Mariners game and could not recall how he and Lyne returned to her house or
what happened when he got there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A gorgeous young Arlington couple seemingly vanish off the face of the earth, leaving no trace behind, sheriff begging for help. But tonight,
we learn a squatter near their ranch reportedly had been harassing the wife. Are they connected?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Patrick Sean (ph) and his wife, Monique (ph), are missing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Neighbors reported the couple missing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re concerned. You know, and they want to know, you know, (INAUDIBLE) find out a little more what`s going on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can see deputies searching near the couple`s home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re working all angles of this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detectives are also are looking for the couple`s vehicles, a tan 2000 Land Rover Discovery with license plate AR 02639 and a
black Jeep Wrangler, license plate WB 02789.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Even if other people can`t, I love him and forgive him -- a boy begs the judge, Don`t send Daddy to jail for kidnapping me, then watches as
Daddy is sentenced to hard jail time.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. A mom of three dips her toe in the dating scene -- ends
in tragedy. She goes on an on-line date to a Mariners game with a 37-year- old dream man. She`s found dead in a local recycling bin, her remains wrapped in plastic, quote, "still flesh," human flesh found in the mom`s
own bathtub drain. What madman masquerades as normal on dating Web sites and then commits murder?
Bombshell tonight. Another girlfriend emerging at this hour. Does she hold a piece of the puzzle? But claims the police nabbed the wrong guy,
that there`s no forensic link between the on-line date and the mom. He made no attempt to run, and just going on a date does not a murder make.
Cops dismantling the dead mom`s bathroom plumbing at this hour. And will a bar code on a single baseball ticket unlock the key to this mystery?
As we go to air tonight, the search is still on for the remaining body parts of Ingrid, this mom of three, her daughters as young as 8, 9 and 12.
Mommy is never coming home. Every time they walk past the family bathroom, they will know Mommy`s remains there.
To Chris Spargo, reporter, Dailymail.com. What can you tell me about the search for the remaining body parts?
CHRIS SPARGO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): Yes, we still don`t know where some of these body parts are. We know that Saturday morning, her ex-
husband came home with the children. She was missing. And around that same time, some of the parts were found in a recycling bin in Seattle, away
from the home, but not all of them. There are still parts that investigators have not been able to uncover.
GRACE: We`re understanding right now an ex-girlfriend, not one but two of them emerging, one claiming he crashed on her sofa the weekend Ingrid Lyne
is murdered. Here`s one of his ex-girlfriends that have emerged.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:05:10]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow, you know, this could have been me. This poor woman, it could have happened to me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A Montana woman says she dated Charlton for about six months.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Charming, witty, all that, you know, and just -- of course, I was (INAUDIBLE) taken by him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But Heather Danishefsky claims their relationship quickly turned abusive. She says Charlton even tried to choke her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of the times, it was because he was drinking, and he would get really angry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: My question would be, did he drink the night of the Mariners game? Now, that`s one girlfriend. But there`s another girlfriend who has emerged
saying that he crashed on her sofa the weekend that Ingrid is murdered. At this hour, police still searching for mom`s body parts after her on-line
date.
And also, Chris Spargo, Dailymail.com, what can you tell me about the Mariners ticket? Why is that so important?
SPARGO: Well, if they went to the game and it`s scanned in, we`ll be able to see if they were at the game or if they skipped the tame. Now, he`s
saying they both went to the game together and drank, so that`s something they will be able to trace.
GRACE: Also at this hour, we learn police expanding the search not just for Mommy`s body parts, but for other missing women, women in Florida,
Utah, California, Idaho, Washington.
This is very similar to the Ted Bundy case. Ben Levitan, do you recall Ted Bundy`s M.O.? We all remember the serial killer, Ted, Bundy, who would
approach women, charm them, sweet talk them. The next thing you do -- next thing you know, they`re dead.
OK, Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert, why are police now searching at missing people`s cases in all of these jurisdictions?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT (via telephone): Nancy, Ted Bundy didn`t carry a cell phone. This guy did. Not only that, he tied his cell
phone to his social media accounts. Police initially found his phone number tied to his Facebook account. So likely, his phone number is tied
to his dating Web sites, as well.
So going back through his on-line dating account, we can find out what women he contacted, and further, what`s probably even more important, for
the last year or so, we`ll be able to know where that phone was located, and therefore where he was located in the past at least one year with those
social media accounts.
If a dating -- if he was in Florida where a women went missing, that`s good evidence that he may be a suspect in that case, Nancy.
GRACE: This search is now expanding into multiple jurisdictions, police looking at other missing women who have never been recovered. Let`s see
their pictures. Could he be linked to these women in Florida, Utah, California, Idaho, Washington?
Ben Levitan, isn`t it true that the carrier keeps you cell phone records for up to seven years?
LEVITAN: Yes, it depends on the carrier. But his particular carrier, AT&T, keeps cell phone records for seven years. For seven years, they will
not know his pinpoint location, but they`ll know what cell towers he used, and that`ll put him within a mile or two of that location.
GRACE: You know, another issue, Justin Freiman, the ex-girlfriend, the other woman one who is emerging, saying that he crashed on her sofa the
weekend that Ingrid is murdered, could play a very critical role in this investigation. Explain.
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Nancy. She says he crashed there. And he got there and she noticed that he had injuries on
his face. And he said that he was robbed, yet his wallet and his cell phone are still on him. And we know police, as you were talking about,
have that cell phone.
GRACE: Joe Scott Morgan joining me, certified death investigator at forensics professor at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, thank you
for traveling to be with us in our studios because my concern is this. Now we are learning that there is a cry, an outcry that police have gotten the
wrong guy, that this guy has no forensic link to the victim.
How do they know that? Because we don`t even have all her body parts. She goes home (ph) one day, she`s dead. They can`t find her body parts, Joe
Scott. That, plus he`s saying he has an alibi. Plus, he didn`t run. He didn`t flee. As a matter of fact, he posted on Facebook that night.
JOE SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Well, I got to tell you, I think it`s way too early to say that there`s no forensic link yet. And
additionally, this girlfriend that he allegedly, you know, crashed at her house that night, if I were the cops, I`d want to go to her home and search
that home, particularly if he slept on the sofa.
[20:10:13]She`s saying she witnessed that he had scratches and this sort of thing. Let`s remember Lacard`s (ph) principle, Nancy. It says every
contact leaves a trace. If he has a -- if he has traces of this poor woman`s body on his person, he laid on that sofa, there is an opportunity
there to harvest trace evidence that cannot be explained except from being deposited there by him. This is going to be very crucial, as well.
As far as not fleeing, there are any number of people that committed horrible crimes that didn`t flee. This goes to the psychopathy that`s
going on between their ears.
GRACE: You know, Justin Freiman, if you look at her timeline, it doesn`t exactly match up. When does she say, this ex-girlfriend -- when does she
say he finally showed up?
FREIMAN: He finally shows up Saturday evening around 10:30 in the evening. He was originally supposed to show up there earlier in the day, but said
something had come up.
GRACE: OK, unleash the lawyers, Misty Marris out of New York, Randy Kessler out of Atlanta. OK, Randy, the timeline doesn`t match up. She`s
not going to be an alibi. He may act like she`s an alibi, but she`s not. He didn`t show up when he was supposed to. He -- can I see Randy Kessler,
please? He didn`t show up when he was supposed to. Instead, he texted her and said something came up -- something like flushing evidence down Mommy`s
bathtub and down her toilet?
What about that, Randy? Maybe that`s why he couldn`t show up on time.
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So now you`re saying he`s got a burden of proof. He`s got to prove something. That`s not the way it works in
America.
GRACE: Yes.
KESSLER: They`ve to prove the crime.
GRACE: No, whoa-whoa. Whoa-whoa. Look around you.
KESSLER: I`m looking.
GRACE: Are you in a courtroom? What does it look like? It`s a TV studio, OK?
KESSLER: Well, thank goodness we have courtroom and law.
GRACE: We`re talking about the evidence, OK? You don`t have to tell me about the burden of proof. What I`m saying is this girlfriend is not
giving him an alibi. No matter how much you two want it to be an alibi, he didn`t show up!
KESSLER: It`s an alibi,and it`s better than no alibi. And you know what? The state has to prove and you haven`t proven it to anybody and the state
hasn`t proven anything yet. There`s a long way to go before this guy`s going to jail for committing a crime when there`s no eyewitness. There`s
already statements that there`s been no forensic proof linking him.
He`s got a lot of defenses here. We got to walk slowly. You don`t put people in jail until you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they did
it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:16:24]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three young girls are left without a mother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her remains discovered in plastic bags in a recycling bin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dismembering the mother of three at her home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 15-inch pruning saw recovered near the bathtub.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bits of human flesh and blood in the bathtub drain.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow, you know, this could have been me. This poor woman, it could have happened to me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A Montana woman says she dated Charlton for about six months.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Charming, witty, all that, you know, and just -- of course, I was, like, taken by him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But Heather Danishefsky claims their relationship quickly turned abusive. She says Charlton even tried to choke her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of the times, it was because he was drinking and he would get really angry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: How did this guy charm so many women? That`s the question. Not only that woman, but another woman emerging, saying he crashed at her place
the weekend Ingrid Lyne is murdered. And why is there no connection forensically between him and the dead mom?
To Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host. He says he had sex with Ingrid that night. Why is there no DNA linked?
DAVE MACK, SYNDICATED TALK SHOW HOST (via telephone): Because we don`t have her torso, Nancy. We don`t have enough of the body recovered. All we
have is John Charlton placing himself with the victim. After they go to the ballgame, after they go to a bar, they go back to her house. So
there`s going to be evidence. According to him, there should be some markings from him at that house.
GRACE: You know, Justin Freiman, the clean-up -- at first, nobody even realized anything had happened in the bathroom.
FREIMAN: That`s right. A first test for blood in the bathroom came back negative. They only found things when they started dismantling the drain
of that bathtub.
GRACE: And that dismantling is still going on today. Joe Scott Morgan, how does that happen? I mean, this guy says he`s so drunk, he doesn`t even
clearly remember the sex. How did he clean up the bathroom? Do we have the wrong guy? I find that very hard to believe.
MORGAN: Well, it`s very difficult to rid the entire bathroom of any kind of biological substances that might be there. The tub itself is the least
of these.
What`s most difficult is trying to clean out this drain. This is actually what`s referred to as a trap. The police have taken this apart. In the
plumbing beneath the tub, you have a lot of things that are caught in here. When our drains get plugged up with hair and this sort of thing, it gets
caught in here, not to mention in this case, if we`ve got any kind of soft tissue, muscle, skin, this sort of thing, and bone, it could potentially be
caught in here. They can also swab beneath the threaded area right underneath the chrome ring in the base of the tub.
This is going to be -- this is going to be very crucial in this examination at the scene.
GRACE: With me is Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author. Bethany, thank you for being with us. Bethany, how does one guy -- and
Charles, let me see the missing women in those jurisdictions, please. How does one guy, Bethany, charm so many women?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, Nancy, you know psychopaths are so charming. One of the criteria is that they`re glib, superficially
charming. But it covers a cold, calculating interior.
One of the things they do is they prey on women by going to vulnerable populations, a single me. We know he slept at a shelter every once in a
while. He may have gone there trying to find homeless women or sex workers or women who are vulnerable in society.
[20:20:08]Nancy, you know psychopaths dismember because they get sexual satisfaction from inflicting pain and cruelty. This is what distinguishes
the psychopath from the sociopath.
It`s interesting that her head was discorded in a recycle bin, but the facial features were intact. It tells me that he didn`t discard the head
just to destroy evidence, but there may have been some sexual satisfaction in dismembering her, in removing the head.
So I think, we may find that there are other victims out there, that this guy is more organized and methodical than we see, than we think, that he
wasn`t really drunk that night. Nancy, his own mother said that he -- he glamorized Hannibal Lecter of "Silence of the Lambs." I don`t know if you
read that report, which I found was interesting because it tells me that he was romanticizing and thinking about doing this.
GRACE: You know, I`m hearing you talk about sexual gratification from dismembering. We all remember Dexter. Remember? Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It feels good getting the details right. It`s more than just preparing a kill room (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I knew you were fouled up the minute I laid eyes on you!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) just fouled up (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s Dexter from Showtime. The thing about Dexter, all his victims were bad guys. Joe Scott, this is a single mom of three. Now, you
know Dexter is pretend. This is real. There is no way this guy secured that scene the way Dexter did! There`s got to be DNA.
MORGAN: There`s going to be something left behind. I got to tell you something else, Nancy, that troubles me about this case is that someone can
say that they had so much alcohol, they forgot that they attacked someone or shot someone. To dismember a body takes an extended period of time. No
amount of alcohol out there is going to free you from this memory that occurs. If you`re that drunk, you`re going to pass out.
I don`t think that this is a solid alibi relative to alcohol consumption. He had plenty of time to take his time, be methodical about this. And then
he essentially carved her up and put her into smaller pieces. We still cannot find the torso, at this point. The only thing that we have is this
one arm, the leg and the head at this point.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:27:07]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Accused of killing Ingrid Lyne after a date.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Body parts found wrapped in plastic inside a recycling bin. A head and foot helped investigators identify Lyne as the
victim.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He admits to being with her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When police located Charlton, they say he had injuries to his forehead, lip and chin and scratches to the chest.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It appears that she was murdered in the home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: But even though the mom of three was dismembered -- in fact, they are looking for the remainder of her body parts. As we go to air tonight,
no forensic link back to this guy. This as police admit they are expanding the search for other women, missing women in multiple jurisdiction.
Justin, why is it this game ticket is so important? I see it as important because it narrows that timeline if I can use that barcode to show they
went to the game.
FREIMAN: Right, but that -- there`s even more to it. Because it was on the computer, they should have the bar code, which -- and they should also
have the exact seat. So through that barcode -- whenever people walk into the field, they zap the ticket. This was opening day. You`re talking
45,000-plus.
Now they should know what time they entered, so they can focus on what cameras they want to look at. They should know what seat they`re in, so
they also know what cameras to focus there and can possibly trace through cameras when they leave, if they even were there.
GRACE: Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host joining us. Dave, what can you tell me about this text exchange that he, John Robert Charlton, had
with Ingrid`s mother when the mother realizes her daughter`s gone?
MACK: Right. That next morning, on Saturday morning, the ex-husband shows up with the kids and Ingrid`s gone. He calls Ingrid`s mom. She then
shares a phone, a Verizon phone bill with -- so she`s able to pull up the number most called and she finds John Charlton.
That`s when they start texting. Hey, what time did you leave? They start asking basic questions. But when she finally says, Hey, we can`t find her,
she`s missing. We`ve called 911. the police want to talk to you, He stopped. I mean, he had talked to them continually, very quickly, up until
the moment they -- that she said, The police needed to talk to you. You`re the last one to see her. He stops communication right at that moment.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Misty Marris, Randy Kessler. Misty Marris, why suddenly does he go AWOL, does he drop off the radar when he finds out
they`ve called 911?
MISTY MARRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, because he feels he might be accused of a crime he didn`t commit. The most telling fact of this entire
exchange is that he responded to the text messages at all. He said, I was with your daughter last night. That`s not the act of somebody who`s
guilty. That`s the act of somebody who does not have any idea what happened.
[20:30:00] GRACE: No idea what happened.
No idea what happened. You know, I want to go back to you Bethany Marshall. When you talk about how someone gets gratification from dismembering their
victim, I mean, Joe Scott, you have the mark of the saw that was used and as gruesome as it is, to imagine, for instance, cutting someone`s leg at
the knee or their arms, or God help us, their head, with an instrument like that, I don`t understand how can that be gratifying, Bethany?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Psychopaths are empty emotionally. That`s why they are thrill-seeking. Aggression and sexuality are process through
the same neuron nets. They use the infliction of cruelty to enhance their sexual excitement. Because they cannot experience excitement, sexual
excitement in normal ways through normal, loving, affectionate relationships because they have low autonomic...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: But wait a minute, Bethany, wait, wait.
MARSHALL: Yes?
GRACE: Joe Scott, it is work. It is work doing this to a human body with a saw. I mean, it`s hard work. Do you see that saw, Bethany? How can that
sexually gratify someone?
MARSHALL: Believe it or not, it can. Psychopaths are empty. They do not experience anxiety, arousal. The things that you and I experience. The
research shows that they are born with lower levels of anxiety than you and I have. That`s why they are not afraid of getting into trouble. That`s why
he was arrogant when questioned.
He didn`t sense the severity of the situation. But that means they don`t get sexually excited very easily.
[20:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A gorgeous young Arlington couple seemingly vanish of the face of the earth, leaving no trace behind. Tonight, sheriffs are begging for help.
But tonight, we learn a squatter, near their ranch, had reportedly been harassing the wife. Are the two connected?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody will keep their eyes open, you know, to try to finds the people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Family says the couple was supposed to go to a concert Monday evening with neighbors, but they never showed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me, Dillon Honcoop from KGMI. This is very unusual that there`s no trace whatsoever. Let`s start from the beginning. How can a
couple vanish?
DILLON HONCOOP, KGMI 790 NEWS HOST: What`s so weird about this is these people are typically in touch with friends and family and they are all
reaching out saying this is very odd for them to just disappear.
We know on Monday, Monique Patenaude, she was last seen at 1 o`clock in the afternoon. Her husband did go to work about an hour south in Kirkland, near
Seattle. Everything seemed normal until that point. It was the next day when neighbors said look, what`s going on here.
The animals, they have a small farm here, it`s a rural neighborhood that they`re in Arlington, their animals had been unattended. They hadn`t fed
the pets and animals. What`s going on? And that`s when they found out, no, they hadn`t showed up to the concert.
Patrick didn`t show up to work the next day. And that`s when friends and families went to the home and found both vehicles are gone, cell phones
off. And they didn`t know what to make of this point. But they said this is very weird. The sheriff`s office agreeing that this is incredibly
suspicious.
GRACE: Another problem, with that you`re saying Dillon Honcoop from KGMI is that`s a 24-hour lead time. And whatever happened to this couple, we are
behind. We lost a whole day, practically.
Take a look at this aerial view of their ranch. This Arlington couple had seemingly vanished off the face of the earth. They`re seen the day before.
They are each in their own vehicle. The next day, the neighbors noticed the animals on their ranch are unattended.
I`m talking about Pat Shunn and his gorgeous young wife, Monique Patenaude. To Dillon, what can you tell me about where they live?
HONCOOP: What`s so scary about this and you`re exactly right, Nancy. The lead time that they, apparently, if they were kidnapped, we don`t know, but
just speculation at this point. The lead time for any of that to play out is huge here, and especially because of the geography of that area.
People may be familiar with this neighborhood. It`s the neighborhood that was devastated just a couple years ago with that huge landslide in Oxo,
Washington that killed so many people. This is a rural area, and it`s a rural area that backs on to foothills.
There are a massive amount of places that someone could be that we also know this couple is outdoorsy they`re fit. They are probably well-aware of
the terrain. And that has some people are asking, well, they just go out for recreation.
GRACE: Let me tell you something, Dillon, they didn`t take both their cars on a foot trail, OK? The husband goes to work. The wife is seen spotted in
her car, near the ranch, that day, around 1 p.m. ., according to one report.
So, where are they? What has happened to this young couple?
Joining me right now, a special guest is Patrick`s brother, Erik Shunn. Erik, thank you for being with us.
ERIK SHUNN, PATRICK SHUNN`S BROTHER: Hi, Nancy, how are you?
[20:40:01] GRACE: Well, I`m fine. But I`m worried. I`m worried about your brother and his wife. This is highly uncharacteristic of them. They were
spotted the day before. He goes to work as normal. She`s spotted around 1 p.m. Now, they would never leave their animals not fed. That would never
happen, Eric.
SHUNN: Yes, ma`am, you are exactly right. Their animals are their children. You know, and they are very sweet people, both of them. Very
loving.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: How did you -- how did you find out...
SHUNN: Everybody -- what`s that?
GRACE: How did you find out that Pat and Monique were missing, Erik?
SHUNN: By their neighbors that they were supposed to go with them and didn`t show up to engage in that concert, and so, yes, that was a red flag.
And then just everything after that. I mean, I don`t know if you want me to go into everything that was red flags, but, there`s a ton of them.
GRACE: Yes. You know what, I understand --
SHUNN: I`ve got a bad gut, Nancy. That I have a bad gut feeling about this. I have a really, really bad gut feeling. And I have felt like that
from the start. So, I hope, you know, things go fine, but you know, I`m a realist. So, I honestly look at what the situation is and, you know, this
is what`s telling me.
GRACE: Let me ask you this, Erik. I don`t want to name any names, but you are concerned about a neighbor. Now, there`s a neighbor issue and there is
a squatter. Did one of them...
SHUNN: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: ... allegedly harass the woman? Harass the wife?
SHUNN: Yes, ma`am. The last time I was up there, and this is why I feel so bad. I got in a fight with my own brother because they got her and her
friend got harassed by this neighbor and my brother wouldn`t call the cops, and so I got pissed and I went to the guys house to, you know, to call him
out and, you know, honestly just beat his ass.
And he wouldn`t come out. I went back over to my brothers. My brother and I got in a fistfight about it. And so you can honestly understand, I feel
pretty bad about the last time I left the situation...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: So, now, Erik you got that.
SHUNN: That was about a year ago but same guy, yes. So, he...
GRACE: When you say that he was harassing Monique, what did he do?
SHUNN: Sexually harassed her and her friend, pushed one of them down and then, you know, that`s why I just turned red. And I was just pissed.
GRACE: OK, you know what? Stacey Newman, I want to follow up on what the brother Erik is telling me, we`ve got this neighbor issue and then a
squatter that had been squatting on their ranch. Where -- it hasn`t -- he disappeared, too? I mean, I agree with the brother, I have a bad gut
feeling about this.
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, we talked to police about this earlier. They actually have no police reports about any harassment. They
have no police reports about a missing neighbor who is potentially a squatter.
And I think if I`m right, he`s squatting on property next to the missing couple.
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: "Even if other people can`t, I love him and forgive him." A boy begs a judge, don`t send daddy to jail for kidnapping me. Then the boy
watches as daddy is sentenced to hard jail time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I don`t know what else to say other than not to send my father to jail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Julian`s mother reported the child missing 13 years ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I accept full responsibility.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This man is a con man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Taking him from me now is just doing the same thing all over again to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This is all about kidnap. A little boy is kidnapped and mommy doesn`t see him for years. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know what else to say, other than not to send my father to jail because even though everyone wants to talk about all the
bad things he`s done, doesn`t think it`s possible to forgive somebody t something like this.
I think that he`s done a lot of good in our time here in Cleveland. He`s raised me well, in my opinion, a lot better than any other parents I`ve
seen. He`s pushed me far in school. And he`s the reason why I get some of the best grades in school and why I`m going to college.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I accept full responsibility for what I did. Julian was the most important person in my life. The things that were said about me
are not true. He`s my son. And to his mother and her family, I didn`t do this, I accepted. It`s hard for me to talk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:50:05] GRACE: To Jeff Tyson, morning anchor of WERC, what exactly happened J.T.?
JEFF TYSON, WERC MORNING ANCHOR: Well, this happened years ago, Nancy. You know, in 2002, when Julian was only 5 years old. And at the time, Bobby
Hernandez and the mother of Julian were not married. But he was the biological father and they split up.
She said that was the end of the relationship, and she took her child and tried to live a normal life. He came by to babysit one day and basically
said, here I`m going to write a note. I`m leaving. He`s OK. I`m out, see you later. And that was it. He took off to Ohio.
GRACE: How long was the baby away from the mom?
TYSON: Well, from my understanding Julian was kidnapped at 5 years old. And he was not aware of anything himself until he started applying to
colleges recently. And his name popped up on a National Center for Missing and Exploited Children`s list and it raised all kinds of questions.
GRACE: Wow. Wow. To a guest we are calling Delonda tonight. Delonda, you went through the same thing what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I basically live the same story and I feel horrible for the parent and son. I was married to my ex-husband when my some was 3
years old. I asked for a divorce. And at the age of 3, that was the last time I saw my son. The next time I saw him he was 13 years old.
GRACE: How did you even find out your son was a alive, Delonda.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I received an e-mail with him in front of a birthday cake. And from that point on he was then reintroduced into my life. And
that was the very emotional feeling that I can since day I remember that feeling of seeing him, not knowing what he was looked like after all of
those years. It`s to be able to see his face and my life just changed. It was horrible.
GRACE: Everyone refugees coming to America escape their home countries hoping for a better life here. When they arrive a new battle. Children
often struggle to fit in. And that`s something this week`s CNN Luma Lufla (ph) hero understands.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are so many things stacked against them. For you to be successful, you are competing against all these other people that
are already like 10 steps ahead of you. So, how are you going to catch up, how are you going to stand out and how are going to contribute
successfully?
We are getting people from all over the world, from all different faiths to come together to do something great.
GRACE: It begins on the soccer field. See where it goes. Watch Luma`s full story, cnnheroes.com. And nominate who you think should be a 2016 CNN hero.
[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Despite his son`s plea that he receive no jail time at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Taking my father away from me now is just increases the pain from that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: But how can that compare to what the mother went through? With me tonight a mother who suffered this same thing. And Ashley Willcott, this is
kidnap.
ASHLEY WILLCOTT, CERTIFIED CHILD WELFARE SPECIALIST: Good evening. Yes it is, Nancy. This is kidnap. And here`s the problem. I see it over and over
again with children who are victims of severe abuse, severe neglect. This child is a victim. They always want to go back to their parents, to their
care takers.
And so, the only life he knows is the result of being a victim of a kidnapping. So, he wants to go home to his dad. The dad kidnapped him and
needs to serve his time.
GRACE: De, back to you. Explain the suffering a mother goes through, not knowing whether the child is dead or alive.
DELONDA: You see children pass you every day and ask yourself, is that my child? I mean, it`s horrible. You don`t know what they had for lunch that
day, who are their friends? Are they happy, is being treated well? It`s a painful experience that to live with. Nothing can replace that.
GRACE: De, how long was your son gone?
DELONDA: I saw him at 3. The next time I saw him was 13. So, that was 10 years I was not part of his life, 10 years that I cannot get back, 10 years
that`s permanently gone.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s remember American hero. Army staff sergeant Daniel Lightner, Jr., 28, Hollidaysburg, Pennsylvania. Bronze star, state trooper.
Loved the outdoors, running, driving classic Ford Mustangs, a bridge in his hometown named after him.
Mother Judy, sister Shiloh. Daniel Lightner, Jr., American hero.
Forensic Files up next. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow at 8 o`clock
sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
[21:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
