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Nancy Grace
Ex-Girlfriend of Seattle Murder/Dismember Suspect Speaks; John Charlton Home Invasion Case; Diane Staudte Case Discussed. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired April 26, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A mom of three goes on an on- line date with a 37-year-old dream man. Mommy`s body parts found in a residential trash bin wrapped in plastic, quote, "still fresh," human flesh
found in a bathtub drain.
Tonight, a woman recycle plant worker shocked when she finds a third set of Mommy`s remains at the recycle plant as the on-line boyfriends demands a
suit and tie for court, worried about his, quote, "look."
And bombshell tonight. The FBI expands the search for other potential on- line murder victims as his ex-girlfriend speaking out in her own words -- It could have been me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Third time in 10 days body parts have been discovered in Seattle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They found a human leg, a hand and then a bag with more body parts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Accused of killing Ingrid Lyne after a date, dismembering the mother of three.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I actually remember saying to myself, I`m not surprised. There was a dark side to him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That from Peteski Productions, CBS TV Distribution.
The nannycam shows it all, a mother and child sitting together, watching TV, when suddenly, a 230-pound tattooed home invader bursts into the room,
viciously beating Mommy to the floor, raining down one deadly blow after the next as the little girl watches in horror as her mother is brutalized.
Tonight, he insists, That`s not me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caught on a nannycam mercilessly beating a mother inside her home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brutal punches and vicious kicks that sent her flying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Attacking the mom as her 3-year-old daughter sat helplessly on a couch clutching a blanket.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: When a father and son both die just six months apart, their deaths ruled natural causes. But when the daughter is rushed to the hospital,
police take another look. Did a Springfield mom poison her family dead? And why is Mommy laughing and joking with hospital personnel while her
family one by one drops dead?
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. A mom of three goes on an on-line date with a 37-year- old dream man, some of Mommy`s body parts found in a residential trash bin wrapped in plastic, still fresh, human flesh found in a bathtub drain.
Bombshell tonight. A woman recycle plant worker shocked when she finds a third set of Mommy`s remains as the on-line boyfriend demands a suit and
tie for court! What? He`s worried about his, quote, "look"? And tonight, the FBI expanding the search for other potential on-line murder victims as
this guy`s ex-girlfriend is speaking out. We have her in her own words -- It could have been me.
Straight out to Robyn Walensky joining us, senior news anchor with The Blaze. Robyn, this plant worker, a female recycle plant worker, shocked to
the point she could hardly speak when she finds the third set of the woman`s remains at the recycle plant. Tonight, we can identify these
remains are those of the missing mom. That is confirmed.
Robyn, what happened?
ROBYN WALENSKY, THE BLAZE NETWORK: Well, it`s outrageous. She looks in the bin, and there`s a foot and a hand and part of this woman. This guy
dismembered her...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. Wait!
WALENSKY: We have no, idea, Nancy.
GRACE: Robyn, Robyn, please. I know it`s old hat to you, but as a crime victim myself, I`m still very sensitive. I just can`t gloss over the way
you said that. No offense. A foot and a hand. I mean, hold on a moment. This is a mother of three, and the most recent remains are her foot and her
hand?
Anything else?
WALENSKY: It`s horrible. In the first group of remains that turned up on the Saturday after the Friday night she went missing was actually her head,
Nancy. And they looked at her license and it was definitely her, according to the sheriff`s department out there.
[20:05:02]GRACE: You know, Dr. William Morrone, forensic pathologist and renowned medical examiner joining us tonight. Dr. Morrone, I`m not quite
sure if there is a right way or a delicate way to put this, but without finding other body parts, we`re going to never know if this mom was
assaulted or not. We don`t have her female body parts, her genitals.
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: It`s right. You`ll know maybe if she was the victim of trauma prior to her dismembering, but not sexual
assault. And that`s true.
GRACE: What do mean by that, Dr. Morrone?
MORRONE: Well, as they find these body parts, even though they may decompose, when you assault somebody, you could create bruises and
lacerations...
GRACE: That`s not the kind of assault I`m talking about. I`m talking about a sex assault, Morrone. She`s assaulted with a sharp tool such as a
knife, a saw, a pruning saw, something along the lines of this. What I`m talking about, without her female body parts, I don`t know if the woman was
assaulted. I don`t know if she was sexually assaulted. I can`t tell very much -- hold on, Dr. Morrone, I think I may have an answer.
Could we go -- listen to this, Dr. Morrone and Robyn Walensky. Chris Spargo also joining us from Dailymail. The ex-girlfriend is speaking out.
What are we learning? Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just happened across a news article, and the name John Robert Charlton popped up. And I was, like, Oh, my goodness. So I
started reading it, and I immediately went into shock. I got sick to my stomach. I couldn`t even speak.
I actually remember saying to myself, I`m not surprised. He`s very charming, witty, very smart. But I could tell that there was something
about him that just was off, maybe a little mental instability. There was just a -- there was a dark side to him. I tell him there is something
scary about your eyes, something mysterious and just off about your -- your eyes. And he`d say, Don`t say that.
I remember when we had first gotten together, my daughter was really sick so he actually came and visited us at the hospital, brought me food. I was
starving. Brought her a teddy bear.
After he did move in, I kind of noticed I felt like I was walking on eggshells. He kind of gave me the sense sometimes that everything I did
wasn`t good enough. I didn`t want to do anything that would be wrong in his eyes. It was almost like he gave me a lecture, you know, because he
was a very black-and-white thinker. It`s either this way or this way with him. And it was hard convincing him otherwise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is suspect John Charlton`s ex-girlfriend talking to Dr. Phil, from Peteski Productions and CBS TV Distribution.
Did you hear what she said, Chris Spargo, Dailymail.com?
CHRIS SPARGO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): Yes, and what she`s saying is he`s this really witty and charming guy, at first she thought. And then
they moved in together. She got really tense and nervous about him. And then she went on to say that when he got drunk, he was just a completely
different person, and while he never physically harmed her, she always kind of had that fear.
GRACE: Chris Spargo, while she never told police about this private incident, I think what you`re about to hear is going to shed light, Dr.
Morrone, on the cause of death of Ingrid. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know it was the night we had gone out. We were drinking. And then it turned into us being sexually active. And during
it, he put his hands around my throat and squeezed.
And it scared me because he kept doing it a little harder and harder and harder to the point where it got harder to swallow. It was getting harder
to breathe. And if I remember right, even after we were done, we were dressed, he then again put his hands around my throat and did the same
thing. And he said, You`re going to fix this. You are going to fix this, as he has his hands around my throat.
I actually got really scared. I was, like, Is he going to stop? Is this going to escalate further? There was a million things going through my
mind.
And during the sex, I thought it was just maybe, you know, like, you know, some people are kind of weird like that. Then when he did it when we
weren`t being sexually active is when it really started to scare me. And that`s when, you know, the thoughts are racing, like, Is he going to stop?
Am I going to have to defend myself?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s from Peteski Productions and CBS Distribution.
Who you are hearing is this guy, John Charlton`s, ex-girlfriend. Now, remember, at the time that Ingrid, the mom of three, goes missing and is
murdered, he`s actually living with essentially another woman, another girlfriend, and dating Ingrid on the side. He meets her on line. We also
find out that this last girlfriend you just heard also met him on line.
[20:10:00]Now, here is something scary. Let`s see a picture of Ingrid Lyne, Ingrid Lyne. I want to see -- look at her. Now, if she puts on
glasses, she looks incredibly like the girlfriend you just saw.
But my point of that -- let me go to Dr. Park Dietz, a renowned forensic psychiatrist with the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit. Dr. Dietz, it`s a real
honor to have you on with us.
Did you hear what the woman just said, his ex-girlfriend, because, Doctor, it reminds me so much of a killer I once prosecuted, and I managed to find
an ex-girlfriend who described the incident where he tried to strangle her, as well, and during and not during a sexual encounter. It`s startlingly
similar.
And it`s my theory that perps do the same thing over and over and over. And I think Ingrid was strangled, that that was the cause of death, Doctor.
DR. PARK DIETZ, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: I think you`ve got a good theory. Like you, this is something I`ve seen repeatedly. But let`s remember that
non-fatal strangulation is well known as a predictor of intimate partner violence. So we can`t be certain -- I mean, intimate partner homicide.
Many women who are killed by their sexual partners have been strangled in the past by them.
Now, it can also indicate sexual proclivities. It can also indicate a means of control. It can be all of those together. But I think you`ve got
a good theory that strangulation is probable here.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Parag Shah, Atlanta, defense attorney, author of "The Code," and high-profile lawyer out of Seattle jurisdiction Ann
Bremner.
I know the two of you are not going to give in to logic, but Ann Bremner, the reality is, it`s -- when you don`t know a horse, look at his track
record. Do either one of you want to fight with me about that statement? Because if he was strangling, mock strangling and seriously strangling as a
means of control or some sort of gratification with his ex-girlfriend, I guarantee you that is what happened to Ingrid Lyne.
ANN BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`ll fight with you, Nancy. I mean, the fact is, I mean, this happened out here in Seattle. Right behind me is the
Space Needle. I mean, this is a case where, sure, you can say this happened before, but there`s absolutely no evidence it happened in this
case. And it doesn`t come in under common plea...
GRACE: Well, she`s dead.
(CROSSTALK)
BREMNER: It`s pure speculation.
GRACE: We know that.
(CROSSTALK)
BREMNER: We don`t know the method or the means. We don`t even know if he`s the one that did it.
GRACE: You know what? You`re right about that. You`re right we don`t know the method.
Let me go to Dr. William Morrone. Dr. Morrone, why is it we don`t know the cause of death, Dr. Morrone?
MORRONE: There`s not enough of the body parts that we consider critical, like lungs, internal organs and the heart. Unless they find enough trauma
on the head -- they found the head. Check the head for suffocation, hemorrhage, broken bones. But not enough vital parts to show total cause
of death.
GRACE: Tonight, his ex-girlfriend speaking out about her life with him, and this as he demands a suit and tie, claiming he wants to protect his
look in court.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:18:00]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police believe this man, John Charlton, murdered Lyne in a rented home and then dumped her body.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Leaving her partial remains in a Seattle recycle bin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bits of human flesh and blood in the bathtub drain.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why anyone would do something so gruesome.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We did argue. We fought a lot, actually. Emotionally, just really get inside your head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She kind of sounded hysterical, like, you know, scared.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She called me and told me that she -- they found a human leg. And then she called me again and told me that she found -- that
they found a hand and then a bag with more body parts. It`s sad. I find it very sad. It`s very heart-breaking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The woman who worked at the recycling plant -- that was her daughter -- the woman is too upset to speak of it -- finds a third set of
this mother`s remains, and tonight we can confirm they are her remains, at a recycling plant.
To Chris Spargo, Dailymail.com. Do we know if the trash where, you know, he just dumped -- somebody just dumped the mom`s remains in a local trash
can that was sitting out on the street -- does the trash in that neighborhood go to that recycling plant?
SPARGO: Well, there`s three different neighborhoods that it could possibly be. Now, they -- one does go to that. One nearby does goes do that plant,
ear the mother`s house, yes. And the bag that it was in matches the bag that she had at her house.
GRACE: To Dr. Park Dietz, forensic psychiatrist with the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit, Dr. Dietz, now the police -- well, our sources tell us
police believe that he planned this murder for a long time, that potentially, he even started dating her in order to kill her. What do you
make of that theory, Doctor?
DIETZ: Well, I haven`t seen the evidence to support it, but of course, the police have seen whatever evidence there is and that could well be
reflected in their on-line conversations, that he was leading up to being able to get her home alone or that he brought with him some implements that
he had planned to use in the murder or dismemberment. But we don`t have access publicly to that information.
[20:20:25]GRACE: Liz, I`d like to see Ted Bundy`s victims because, as you will see when you see Ted Bundy, a prolific serial killer`s victims, they
all are startlingly similar.
Now, there`s Bundy. Now, when he was not in a mug shot, he was very -- well, to some people, not me -- very attractive, very charismatic. He
would meet his victims and start dating them. He would meet them at the library, meet them at the beach, meet them in all sorts of places. And
then after dating them briefly, they would end up dead.
Now, what`s striking about his victims is that they all look similar. What do you make of that, Dr. Dietz?
DIETZ: Well, first of all, sometimes, there is great similarity among victims of a serial offender. But at other times, there`s very little
similarity. They may be of different races, different ages, even different genders.
GRACE: Well, I want to show you something else, Dr. Dietz. Now I want you to take a look at the women this guy is dating and compare them to other
missing women in different jurisdictions where he has lived, that we know of, and where he has records, criminal histories. That`s six different
states, many of them startlingly similar. The FBI now expanding their search for his potential homicide victims.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:26:09]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The latest discovery of human remains have (ph) a dozen Seattle police officers combing through the trash, confirm the
remains likely belong to Ingrid Lyne.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A grisly murder, a 15-inch pruning saw recovered near the bathtub, dismembering the mother of three at her home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, confirmed those remains just found at a recycle plant are those of Ingrid Lyne. The mom of three goes on an on-line date with her
dream man, just 37 years old. She is dead. And there is no doubt tonight that those last set of remains belong to Ingrid.
Now an ex-girlfriend of Charlton`s is speaking out, describing her relationship with Charlton. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We did argue. We fought a lot, actually. A lot of the times we did argue was alcohol involved. When he drank, he became a
completely different person. He was mean, stubborn, bull-headed. He was never violent. Like, he never hit me or anything like that. It was mostly
just emotionally, just really -- he`d really get inside your head.
DR. PHIL: How often would he drink?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: More than he probably should have. I mean, he was on probation at the time.
DR. PHIL: And he was on probation for what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe it was for a theft that had occurred in Montana.
DR. PHIL: OK, and he told you about that, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
DR. PHIL: And he told you it was about stealing a purse?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From a breast-feeding woman. She was breast-feeding her baby, and he stole her purse.
DR. PHIL: What did you say about that? Because it seems to me like that`s kind of really a pretty low-life thing to do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is very much -- yes, very much so, but...
DR. PHIL: How did you make that OK with yourself?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I like to see the best in people. I like to see potential in people, and it did seem like he was trying to make things
better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Her theory, It could have been me. That`s from Peteski Production and CBS TV Distribution.
Unleash the lawyers, Parag Shah, author of "The Code," defense attorney, Ann Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle.
So Parag Shah, again, what she is saying echoes theories regarding the murder of Ingrid Lyne because what he says to police about the night they
went to the Mariners game is, We went back to her place. I got really drunk. I can`t really remember a lot that happened. I know we had sex.
But this woman says that is when his dark side would come out, When he drank too much. But that`s not a defense under the law, Parag.
PARAG SHAH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s not a defense, but that`s not the issue. The issue is why are we even believing this woman? If you`re going
to believe anything, why don`t you believe the most relevant part, which is he`s not violent. He wasn`t violent. So he drinks and he drinks on dates.
I don`t understand why -- you know, if this is such a big issue, why is she bringing it up now? She clearly had no problems with it back in the day
when she was being choked or whatever. He was this weirdo...
GRACE: Do you remember...
SHAH: She`s describing him like Dexter.
GRACE: ... Scott Peterson? Is that ringing a bell? Did he have a criminal history before he murdered his wife and unborn child? No, he did
not. Let`s see. What about Phil Spector before he shot Lana dead? No.
(CROSSTALK)
SHAH: ... so let`s talk about this case.
GRACE: Well, I`m telling you they don`t have to have a criminal history to commit murder, but this guy...
SHAH: But he`s not even violent!
GRACE: ... does have a criminal history.
SHAH: This guy`s not...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... telecommunications expert. Dr. Wells, joining me out of Pleasanton. You know what? We can go around and around like a cat chasing
its tail about what his history proves and what other girlfriends say. But what about this, Dr. Wells? What about placing him there in the home at
the time of the murder. What about that?
Is there a way to place their cell phones together throughout that evening, Jonathan?
[20:30:00] JONATHAN WELLS, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Yes, that`s right, Nancy, you can do that. There are location services that can be used to
build up a map and a timeline of a caller`s whereabouts and that could be used in this incident to actually locate Charlton and see where he was at a
particular time.
NANCY GRACE, NANCY GRACE SHOW HOST: How do you do it?
WELLS: Well, when you send or receive a call, your phone connects to a cell tower. These are the big towers you see by the side of freeways. The cell
towers keep record of which phone numbers connect to which towers and what times. Therefore, you can track a phone`s connections and with knowledge of
where these cell towers are, you can determine the approximate location of the user.
GRACE: You know, I`m just wondering if they could do cell phone tower dump to find out what cell phones were being used along that block at the same
time. We know where the body parts where dumped like trash which is a whole other layer of psychopathy that you leave someone`s body with the trash.
But another issue is Robyn Walensky, senior news anchor with TheBlaze, I`m very interested in A, where are we going to find this mom`s body parts
because we don`t have her whole body yet and are they linking him to other missing people, other missing women? This -- as he is demanding a suit and
tie to be in court for arraignment tomorrow, Robyn?
ROBYN WALENSKI, SENIOR NEWS ANCHOR WITH THEBLAZE: I will tell you, Nancy, that this guy has a pattern. He`s nice in the beginning then he gets drunk,
things are happening, we don`t know what`s going on but the FBI is definitely expanding the search.
One more point, they`re going to look at her fingers and her hands and underneath her nails. Is his skin on it? Because I will tell you that the
police are saying that there are scratches on his chest, his lip was swollen and there are scratches on his forehead. So perhaps she fought
back.
GRACE: Chris Spargo, Dailymail.com. You don`t think they`re doing a deal with him so he`ll tell where the rest of her body is, do you?
CHRIS SPARGO, DAILMAIL.COM REPORTER: I mean, I would assume that if they think there are possibly more bodies out there somewhere, they`re probably
not going to try to do that at this point. They are certainly not catering to him. It doesn`t seem as this point. As you mentioned, he requested a
suit and tie because he`s one of the.
GRACE: Yeah, what`s with that? He`s worried about his look in court. If you look at the video of him recently, his lawyer wouldn`t let his face be
shown. Now he wants a suit and tie?
All I got to see was his rear end and his legs, OK? This woman is dead. Her body has been chopped up in pieces, they just found a leg and a foot, the
woman that found it in hysterics and he`s worried about a suit and a tie, Chris Spargo? Did I hear you correctly?
SPARGO: That is correct and as you mentioned at the last arraignment, they wouldn`t let him show his face because he didn`t have a suit and tie.
[20:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: The nanny cam shows it all, the mother and child sit together watching TV when suddenly a 230 pound tattooed home invader bursts into the
room, viciously beating mommy to the floor, raining down one deadly blow after the next as the little girl watching in horror as her mom is
brutalized. Tonight, he`s actually insisting, "That`s not me."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A young mother of two attacked by an intruder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The suspect kicked and punched the mom over and over again, but he also tossed her down stairs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her little girl was in the room watching her mother struggling with a stranger who kicked his way inside.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Oh I can see him just fine but he is insisting, as is his defense lawyer, "That`s not me." Let`s look at this guy, roll it, Liz.
Just notice that the child is sitting on the sofa the whole time the mom is getting one deadly blow after the next. Please play it in full as I go to
my guest, Dan O`Donnell, WISN, what happened?
DAN O`DONNELL, WISN ANCHOR AND REPORTER: This is a truly a horrific video, Nancy, you can see the suspect entering the home and just raining down
blows on this poor defenseless woman as her three-year-old daughter watches. An 18-month-old son is sleeping in a bedroom nearby.
The suspect takes jewelry, a phone, and then comes back down stairs to beat the woman again. It`s all caught on the nanny cam but the suspect and his
lawyers are saying this isn`t him.
GRACE: Right, that it`s not him. You know, I want to follow up on what Dan O`Donnell, WSIN is saying. Stacey Newman, I can see him just fine. How can
he say that`s not me?
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, they`re saying there are absolutely no fingerprints of him in that home even though he was upstairs
and down stairs and he said the victim in this case looked at photos of potential suspects and she picked a man who wasn`t him.
GRACE: Okay. I want to follow up on that, Stacey Newman. Just because the defendant says that doesn`t mean that it`s true. Everybody, I want you to
look at this video because this guy is now saying that`s not me. Jon Mark, owner of Spytech Inc. joining us. What type of security camera is this that
is being used?
[20:40:00] JON MARK, SPYTECH OWNER: Well, I`m assuming it`s just a standard nanny cam. It could be enclosed in a radio or clock. It was pretty clear
video and.
GRACE: It`s very clear, Jon.
MARK: Yes, very clear and pretty horrific.
GRACE: What do we know, Dan O`Donnell, WISN? You said that jewelry and a pocketbook was taken?
O`DONNELL: Yes, it was jewelry, a phone as well was taken.
GRACE: Now, did those items ever turn up, Dan?
O`DONNELL: To my knowledge I am not sure looking for.
GRACE: Well, let me find out. Stacey Newman, what else besides this video - - I mean, he`s caught on video. What else connects him to the crime, Stacey?
NEWMAN: Well, there are people who are close to him in his life, his own girlfriend and girlfriend`s daughter said she saw this video on the news
when the story was reported when we aired it and said she ran into the bedroom, he`s there with the girls` mom and said "Hey, you`re on the news."
And he said "It wasn`t me." But all the witnesses close to him say that`s him on the video.
GRACE: Well, hold on a moment. Isn`t it true that blood was found on his jeans? What do we know about that, Stacey?
NEWMAN: Yes, there is blood evidence in the case and as far as we know, it appears now police are saying it`s her blood but the defense is saying it`s
not his jeans, they`re women`s jeans.
GRACE: Oh, dear lord. OK, wait, where was the jeans found?
NEWMAN: The jeans were found I believe in his home because.
GRACE: OK, that`s all you need to say, Stacey. Unleash the lawyers, Parag Shah, Atlanta, Anne Bremner, Seattle. OK, Ann Brenner, why should -- who
should I believe, him or my lying eyes?
You want me to believe him over that video and now -- I mean, to hear Stacey Newman -- no offense, Stacey, and Dan O`Donnell, no offense, Dan, to
say, "Oh, there`s no fingerprints, she picked somebody else in a lineup." Her blood is on his jeans, Ann?
ANNE BREMNER, SEATTLE ATTORNEY: Well, wait a minute, just like with Charlton we talked about in Seattle, there`s no DNA in that case, Nancy.
We`re talking like he`s guilty and there`s no evidence.
GRACE: OK, that was about 20 minutes ago. We here in a new case now, Anne.
BREMNER: I know. Look, I had to because -- I had to get that and it`s the same thing here. She says it`s not him.
(CROSS TALK)
GRACE: No, she does. No, she does because she sees him in person. She says it`s him, I guarantee you that.
BREMNER: That doesn`t show up...
GRACE: It`s her blood.
BREMNER: But that`s unduly suggestive and the blood, they`re women`s jeans. They`re not connected to him and the Thompson, his girlfriend said the
police busted in and took him without permission and it shows clear and convincing evidence that there`s -- that there`s an actual consent to take
those things from the house. So all those issues.
GRACE: I`m telling you, Bremner, that her blood where he beat her mercilessly in the face in front of her daughter, is on his jeans in his
home, put Bremner up. And now your defense is they didn`t have a search warrant? They did have a search warrant.
BREMNER: They said they -- Thompson said they came in, busted in, they didn`t have permission, they get those jeans.
GRACE: So? If they didn`t have permission, you`re darn right. Parag Shah, why are you sitting there? You`re having a happy dream?
PARAG SHAH, ATLANTA ATTORNEY: She`s doing a great -- because she`s doing a great job, there`s no reason to interrupt some great defense going on right
now.
GRACE: You two are misleading the viewers.
SHAH: But here`s the thing. There is reasonable doubt.
GRACE: Cut his mic. Cut his mic. Why am I hearing him, because I can still hear him? OK, Anne Bremner just blurts out -- no offense, Anne, they didn`t
have permission to go in his place. No, they didn`t, they had what is called a search warrant. OK, you can open up Parag Shah, Liz.
BREMNER: That`s contested.
GRACE: That`s exactly the criminal law 101. The whole search warrant.
BREMNER: That`s contested, Nancy. She said.
GRACE: Are you.
SHAH: That doesn`t mean it`s valid. Just because they have a search warrant doesn`t mean that it was valid.
BREMNER: Exactly.
GRACE: OK, so let me understand what you two were saying, A, it`s not him, B, even if it is her blood on the jeans which DNA shows it is, they didn`t
have permission and if it`s a search warrant, there`s something wrong with the search warrant.
BREMNER: Right.
GRACE: You know, -- and the search.
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: When a father and son both died six months apart, their deaths ruled natural causes. But when the daughter is rushed to the hospital, police
take another look. Did a Springfield mom poison her family dead?
And why is mommy laughing and joking with hospital personnel while her family one by one drops dead?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIANE STAUDTE, VICTIM`S MOTHER AND WIFE: As far as did I do something to her? I didn`t do anything to her. I mean, I guess I could have taken her to
the E.R. sooner, but I didn`t know.
RACHEL STAUDTE: She wishes there was more she could have done. She`s told me when we talk at night, she feels like a failure as a mom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight up to Jim Gemmell, news director, WJRW. It`s hard for me to believe. Now I know spouses argue with each other, there`s a thin line
between love and hate but when you start talking about wiping out your whole family, you know what? Hold on, Jim, listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. STAUDTE: I don`t know what I can tell you. We were still married but it was not what you call a good marriage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had there been infidelities on either side?
D. STAUDTE: He had. He was running around and he would drink and smoke pot and.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So he wasn`t a very good husband?
D. STAUDTE: Yes. Even with all his faults, I still love him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did it get started with Shaun?
[20:50:00] D. STAUDTE: Shaun would be interfering with whatever I would do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So he was just a constant bother, wouldn`t leave you alone. Like you said, he was interfering with your work.
D. STAUDTE: He was almost to a point of inappropriate at times. I mean, to the point where he would walk into the bathroom if the door was shut. I
mean, just really bizarre stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And just got to you and started to interfere, and said not to bother you. You said you can`t take did anymore?
D. STAUDTE: I guess, more than a bother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More than a bother?
D. STAUDTE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That from ABC`s 20-20 and Newsleader.com. Tiffany Sanders, psychologist. Dr. Sanders. He came -- he barged into the bathroom at the
wrong time, he made inappropriate jokes, she was bragging about a Florida vacation at the hospital, laughing at jokes when her family`s dropping dead
one by one. They`re dropping like flies.
TIFFANY SANDERS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Right, Nancy. You`re a mother of two kids. A mother is supposed to love, protect and nurture her kids. What she was
saying that she was bothered and annoyed by her children. So she tried to pick them off one by one. That is nothing -- nothing motherly about it and
then she also murdered her husband. This woman.
GRACE: Well, that is the theory. That`s the working theory. But what I don`t understand is the behavioral evidence of her laughing at the hospital
-- laughing at the hospital while her family is dying one by one, complaining the husband wasn`t really such a great guy, that one of the
dead family members would barge into the bathroom and make inappropriate jokes. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then Sarah, you talked about and she wasn`t getting a job and then she got these student loans and you were going to end up
paying for them?
D.STAUDTE: That`s pretty much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you just had it with her as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s from ABC`s 20-20. Jim Gemmell, WJRW, complaining the daughter wouldn`t pay back her student loans? That`s why she`s irritated with the
daughter?
JAMES GEMMELL, NEWS DIRECTOR WJRW: Well, she did say she felt trapped in her life and amazing that she later allegedly researched online, Nancy, how
to kill someone with anti-freeze, mixing it with Gatorade or Coca-Cola, that Mark and the daughter drank and then even a third daughter as well as
his son. And so you end up with two family members killed and one seriously injured.
[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think you may have said something to the officers about him being incoherent. He said he couldn`t hardly talk and slurring
words and things like. So why not at that point didn`t you -- why didn`t you called an ambulance or bring him to the hospital at that point?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is from Newsleader.com. Jim Gemmell, WJRW, I think she`s just making up excuses as to why she`s killing these people. Her own family, her
daughter didn`t pay student loans, her son busted into the bathroom at inappropriate times, the husband was a little bit of a deadbeat. They`re
all dead, Jim.
GEMMELL: Well, and they wouldn`t have even found dead, I wouldn`t tell unless they got an anonymous tip, and that`s how they found out, another
daughter injured as well.
GRACE: You know, you`re bringing up a good point, James Gemmell. Dr. William Morrone, renowned forensic pathologist. How could that it may not
notice that the family is dropping like flies and keep ruling natural causes?
WILLIAM MORRONE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: One of the things is anti-freeze poisoning looks like a kidney disease and that they may be impaired, which
could have come from an electrolyte abnormality. But it takes that much anti-freeze in 30 small doses, just that much accumulatively to kill you,
or one large toxic dose of anti-freeze that big.
But 30 doses like this, and it`s sweet, you can put it in any beverage and you don`t know what you`re drinking.
GRACE: Well, would you can`t taste it?
MORRONE: No, it`s sweet. You put it in a sweet beverage, it tastes just like your sweet beverage.
GRACE: Is that true, Michael Christian, because we`ve done a little experiment on you? I`m not going to say I made you taste anti-freeze but
well, it happened. What did it tasted like?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: In my younger and stupider days, yes it does. It`s very sweet and as Dr. Bernie says in a Coke, in some
Gatorade, in a mixed drink like a Pinacolada, you would never taste it.
GRACE: Well hold on, I want to see Dr. Morrone, show me the dosage again.
MORRONE: 30 doses this small or.
GRACE: Is that a tea spoon?
MORRONE: It`s a little bit more than a tea spoon, but yes, about that.
GRACE: So I could put 30 of those in say, a Diet Coke, and my husband would never know the difference? Is that what you`re saying?
MORRONE: 30 doses over two or three months, somebody looks like they have kidney disease and they die of natural causes in the hospital. Nobody would
ever know.
GRACE: But didn`t one of the victims have blood around their mouth? Nobody noticed that?
MORRONE: Well, after it destroys the kidneys, then the blood doesn`t clot, and you have clotting problems that are systemic in the whole body. But
that would be seen as kidney disease.
[21:00:00] GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember American hero Army Master Sergeant Thomas Wallsmith, just 38, Carthage, Missouri, purple
heart, loved his Harley. Parents Patricia and Thomas, brother Joel, widow Brenda, daughter Lauren, son Nathan. Thomas Wallsmith, American hero.
Forensic Files next, thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace sign off, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp
eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
