Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Seattle Murder-Dismember Suspect Arraigned; Young Arlington Couple Missing Without Trace; Did a Springfield Mom Poison Her Family?. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired April 27, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A mom of three goes on an on- line date with a 37-year-old dream man. Mommy`s body parts found in a residential trash bin wrapped in plastic. A woman recycle plant worker
shocked to find a third set of Mommy`s remains.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, on-line boyfriend in court demanding a suit and tie to protect his, quote, "image," demanding low bond and
insisting, I`m not guilty.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mom Ingrid Lyne disappeared after a Mariners game.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a date she met on line.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone discovered body parts in plastic bags inside a recycling bin. The human remains belonged to the Renton mom of three.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... from the man Ingrid went on a date with, charged with first degree murder. He expressed no emotion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A gorgeous young Arlington couple vanish off the face of the earth, leaving no trace behind, their SUVs found in remote woodland. Breaking
tonight. We obtain secret police files, items of clothing soaked in blood and gasoline recovered, also a bag, rubber gloves, a tarp, towels. And
tonight, we, along with the FBI, track the killers on the run.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really, really bad feeling. And I had felt like that from the start.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. A young couple disappears, and cops believe they were killed in cold blood by two brothers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are armed and dangerous, and the public should absolutely be worried.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: When a father and son both die just six months apart, their deaths ruled natural causes. But when the daughter is rushed to the hospital,
police take another look. Did a Springfield mom poison her family dead? And why is Mommy laughing and joking with hospital personnel while her
family one by one drop dead? Tonight, we obtain the bombshell police interrogation tape.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. A mom of three goes on an on-line date with a 37-year- old dream man. Mommy`s body parts found in a residential trash bin, wrapped in plastic. A woman recycle plant worker shocked, hysterical when
she finds a third set of Mommy`s remains at the plant.
Well, in the last hours, on-line boyfriend in court -- we have the video -- demanding a suit and tie, demanding the judge give him a suit and tie to
protect his, quote, "image," demanding a low bond so he can get out and insisting, I`m not guilty. No forensics link me to this crime. I just had
a date.
That`s what`s going down right now. This as we learn in secret court documents this guy is a father.
Straight out to Bryan Cohen, reporter with Capitol Hill Seattle.com. Bryan, thank you for being with us. I`m a little stunned that he`s looking
down the wrong end of the barrel on murder one charges, and he`s worried about his image? Really? About what kind of suit and tie he`s going to
wear.
What happened?
BRYAN COHEN, CAPITOL HILL SEATTLE.COM (via telephone): Well, yes. The defense said that -- you know, that they were worried about the potential
jurors getting, you know, a tainted view of him if he had appeared in jail clothes. The judge denied that, and so he did appear in his jail clothes
when he showed up for his arraignment today. So...
GRACE: Well, hold on. Let me follow up right there. Unleash the lawyers, Kirby Clements, veteran trial lawyer, former prosecutor now defense
attorney, Atlanta, Carissa Kranz, multi-state lawyer joining me from LA.
First to you, Carissa. You know how he can avoid tainting a potential jury pool? He could go ahead and confess. And not only that, he could cough up
what he knows about missing women that highly resemble this victim, Ingrid Lyne, in six other jurisdictions.
Let`s see their pictures, Liz. Charles ,can you dig up the pictures of the ladies still missing? Now, these are women that bear a striking
resemblance in many ways, either their body type, which you can`t see but we know about, or their face type. amazing similarities to this mom of
three. Also amazing, many of these were single moms just like Ingrid Lyne, just like every other woman he targets and dates.
[20:05:19]Robyn Walensky, senior news anchor with "The Blaze," what was the last set of this mom of three`s body parts? Wasn`t it a leg or a foot
found on a conveyer belt at a recycling plant?
ROBYN WALENSKY, THE BLAZE NETWORK: Yes, actually, Nancy, it was also her hand, a part attached to the arm. Now, let me tell you, there`s going to
be evidence in this case because the first thing...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!
WALENSKY: ... that they`re going to do, they`re going to look under the fingernails.
GRACE: Wait! Wait! Robyn, Robyn, you`re doing it again. Let`s just slow down for a moment. What did you say about a hand on the conveyer belt at
the recycle plant -- the plant, the recycle plant?
WALENSKY: Her hand is intact, attached to the arm, and that`s what was found in the third discovery at the plant. So her fingernails exist. And
they`re going to look underneath those nails to see if there`s scratches or any kind of DNA that relates to him because...
GRACE: Hold on! Robyn...
WALENSKY: ... there are scratches on him...
GRACE: ... look at your monitor. Charles, thank you for getting that.
Look at this. Look at the trash. Now, think about your mother, your mother. Think about her foot, her leg, her hand attached to her arm in all
of this filth! Imagine the moment the lady recycle plant worker finds your mother`s hand there! Think about it.
I think about my mom. She`s a church organist -- her hand. Think about these little girls, these three girls, Robyn Walensky, just rolls off your
tongue. These hands that have put the girls to sleep, that have combed their hair, put their hair in braids, helped them brush their teeth, cooked
their meals. Her arm and her hand is found in that filth!
And this guy comes into court just before we go to air and demands he should have a suit and tie? What about that, Robyn Walensky?
WALENSKY: Oh, it`s an absolute disgrace. And these little girls, ages 12, 10 and 7, Nancy -- they will never be right. They will never be the same.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Kirby Clements, Carissa Kranz. I was on you, Kirby Clements. What about that? How are you going to get out from around
that in front of a jury? What about your mother, your mother, to explain to these three girls that part of their mother`s body, her hand attached to
her arm is on that conveyer belt that I just showed you with all the filth and the slimy food and the trash and the cans.
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I...
GRACE: And he`s worried about his tie?
CLEMENTS: Well, Here`s a couple things, Nancy. Number one, the emotions are strong, but the facts are weak on this particular case. There is no
tangible evidence linking him to those crimes. That`s point number one. Point number two...
GRACE: Carissa, don`t shake your head up and down...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: No, no! You`re actually wrong!
CLEMENTS: There`s nothing -- there`s nothing that links this man to the crime.
GRACE: Yes, there is! Oh, yes, there is! Yes, there is!
CLEMENTS: No. And as far as the other women are concerned, Nancy, here`s the thing. Pure speculation. He hasn`t been locked up on those charges.
Again, emotion is strong, facts are weak. What about that, Nancy Grace?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Kirby Clements, since I first met you, that was one of the first things you said to me when I was trying cases.
Let`s review what you just said. OK, Robyn Walensky -- could I do a cross- examination with Walensky? Just give me a yes, no, Robyn. Number one, isn`t it true that the night that this woman disappeared, this mother of
three, she had a date with an on-line -- a guy she met on line, 37-year-old John Charlton. Is that true or false?
WALENSKY: One hundred percent correct.
GRACE: OK, so that`s a yes. The last person known to be with her was who, Robyn Walensky?
WALENSKY: John Charlton.
GRACE: And isn`t it true, as well, that he had an engagement the next day with the woman he is basically living with and he showed up late, making
some excuse up that his wallet had been stolen, and he was covered with scratches? Isn`t that true?
WALENSKY: Yes.
GRACE: Now, isn`t it also true he admits he was with her the night before?
WALENSKY: Correct.
GRACE: Now, last question, Robyn Walensky. Is it also true that she goes missing, she`s last heard from around 10:00 o`clock. She says she`s on a
date with Charlton. The next morning at 7:30 AM, she`s dead. She was killed or at least dismembered in her home because they found a saw and
blood in her drain in the bathtub and an intense clean-up had (ph) done.
[20:10:02]So sometime between 10:00 PM and 7:0 AM, while he was with her -- he admits going back to the house with her and sleeping with her. Then he
says he was drunk and can`t remember anything else. He places himself at the murder scene.
Is that correct, Robyn Walensky?
WALENSKY: He was there and admits it.
GRACE: OK, what about that, Kirby Clements? He is at the murder scene at the time of the murder?
CLEMENTS: No.
GRACE: Now, that doesn`t tell you -- oh, so he has a date with her.
CLEMENTS: Yes.
GRACE: He sleeps with her.
CLEMENTS: Yes.
GRACE: He spends the night. But what, he gets up early in the morning and leaves, and then a serial killer breaks in and kills her and dismembers
her?
CLEMENTS: I don`t know...
GRACE: Is that your theory?
CLEMENTS: No, we don`t know who killed that woman, serial killer or someone who knows her. What we do know is this. She did die that night.
She was dismembered. He doesn`t have any cuts on his hands.
GRACE: And he was with her.
CLEMENTS: ... consistent with cutting -- with using that hacksaw to saw through her body. There`s nothing linking her there. He lied to the girl
the next day because you know what? He was sleeping with some woman the next night. (INAUDIBLE) you know I`m right, Nancy.
GRACE: Because -- Joe Scott Morgan, tell me about the evidence. Tell me about the evidence that proves that he is there in the right timeframe of
her murder and describe the injuries to his body that we know of so far.
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Well, he`s got scratches on his body, allegedly. And what`s going to be really
interesting about this case...
GRACE: Hold on, Joe Scott. Wait a second. Liz, show me the video of what it requires to saw a human bone because this takes a long time and a lot of
effort. He`s there at the scene. Whoever killed her had to do a massive clean-up and spend a lot of time doing this.
Now, speak over this, please, Joe Scott.
MORGAN: Yes. Look, hey, he`s -- he`s dismembering the body. Someone is dismembering this body. And it takes an excruciatingly long period of
time. That means that they spend a lot of time with the body. That means that we`re going to have contact DNA.
If before this person died, they put up a fight, those fingernails are going to be key, whatever is contained beneath them, whether it`s her skin,
whether it`s just contact DNA, potentially hair. You never know what`s going to be beneath those nails.
I hope the police do a very thorough job in examining these, that is the criminalist. Also, the methodology here -- it took a long time.
What I`m very interested in finding out about this case, Nancy, is the fact that he`s saying that he doesn`t remember anything, that he blacked out.
What has gone on with this woman is a higher level of prognition (ph). This is not a blackout drunk...
GRACE: I mean, look at this, Joe Scott. How long -- he places himself there at around midnight, sleeping with a woman. At 7:00 AM, just seven
hours later, she`s dead, the body`s dismembered, a cover-up is done. Look at what it takes to cut a human bone.
And tonight, he`s worried about what tie he`s going to wear to court?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:17:00]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Evidence found at Ingrid Lyne`s Renton home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her house where police say she was killed, pieces of human flesh and blood in the bathtub drain.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 15-inch pruning saw...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An empty box of plastic garbage bags that match color and size of ones found in then central district.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Body parts wrapped in plastic inside a recycling bin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The on-line date more worried about the tie and suit he`s wearing in court -- he`s worried about a potential jury seeing him in prison
orange. Well, he could can fix all that if he would admit to what happened the night a mom of three, Ingrid Lyne, goes missing, her body parts being
found all over town.
And what about the other missing women in the six jurisdictions where we know he has a criminal history that have strong physical resemblances to
the mom of three?
Joining me right now, reporter from Capitol Hill Seattle.com, Bryan Cohen. In the last hours, this guy in court. In a nutshell, what happened, Bryan?
COHEN: Well, Charlton appeared in a Seattle court for an arraignment today, where he pleaded not guilty to first degree murder of Ingrid Lyne.
The defense had previously said that there was no physical evidence linking Charlton to the crime, so you know, his not guilty plea is not necessarily
unexpected. He also pleaded not guilty to charge of car theft. Prosecutors believe that he stole Ingrid Lyne`s car in committing --
allegedly committing this murder.
GRACE: The injuries to him -- abrasions to his lip and face, scratches on his chest. You know, Liz, could you pull up for me what his last -- not
the one he was living with when Ingrid Lyne was killed, but his last girlfriend. Liz, I want to hear about when he tried to strangle her.
With me, Bryan Cohen from Capitol Hill Seattle.com. You know, Robyn Walensky, they`re saying there`s no DNA link, but we don`t have the
forensics back yet, do we?
WALENSKY: No. Forensics are not back yet. And obviously, all these body parts have to be examined. And also, clearly, they did fingerprinting and
DNA evidence at the scene, as well. None of this has been processed yet.
GRACE: You know, another thing -- joining me, in addition to Scott Morgan from Jacksonville State university, Dr. Panchali Dhar, physician out of New
York, with me Sheriff Grady Judd, Polk County sheriff`s department.
Hey, Sheriff, thank you for being with us. What do you make of the defense claim at this early juncture that there is no DNA linking their guy to
Ingrid Lyne? I mean, he says he slept with her. There should be some semen, there should be some DNA unless her body was bleached or treated
with some muriatic acid.
GRADY JUDD, POLK COUNTY SHERIFF: Well, we know that what else can they say? Obviously, we have a circumstantial case at this point in the
investigation. And forensics takes a period of time because all of this has to go to the laboratories.
[20:20:07]At the end of the day, you`ll find DNA. He`s got wounds where she more than likely has fought with him. She`s going to have DNA and skin
and tissue underneath her fingers. And at the end of -- when this is all put together, you`ll find the prosecution has a very strong case.
GRACE: Well, you know, Sheriff Grady Judd, I still believe that two plus two equals four. And if I put together he says he had sex with her that
night, there are scratches on his chest, when you listen to this ex- girlfriend, I think we`ll have a picture of what happened to Ingrid Lyne.
Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know it was a night we had gone out. We were drinking. And then it turned into us being sexually active. And during
it, he put his hands around my throat and squeezed.
And it scared me because he kept doing it a little harder and harder and harder to the point where it got harder to swallow. It was getting harder
to breathe. And then if I remember right, even after we were done, we were dressed, he then again put his hands around my throat and did the same
thing. And he said, You`re going to fix this. You are going to fix this, as he has his hands around my throat.
I actually got really scared. I was, like, Is he going to stop? Is this going to escalate further? There was a million things going through my
mind.
And during the sex, I thought it was just maybe, you know, like, you know, some people are kind of weird like that. Then when he did it when we
weren`t being sexually active is when it really started to scare me. And that`s when, you know, the thoughts are racing, like, Is he going to stop?
Am I going to have to defend myself?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It`s not hard to connect the dots about how this mom of three, Ingrid Lyne, was murdered.
That`s Dr. Phil, Peteski Productions, CBS TV Distribution.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:55]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Accused of killing Ingrid Lyne after a date, dismembering the mother of three at her home, then leaving her
partial remains in a Seattle recycle bin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Another gruesome discovery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sanitation workers, while collecting the receptacles, found human remains.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The latest discovery of human remains is a shock.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They found a human leg.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: In the last hours, just as we go to air, this on-line date in court insisting he gets to deck out in a suit and tie. What does he want,
Armani?
So Bryan Cohen, reporter, Capitol Hill Seattle.com, what did the judge decide? Is he going to wear an Armani suit to court? Who`s going to pay
for it?
COHEN: No, the judge declined the defense`s ask to have him appear in regular clothes. So he did appear in the orange jumpsuit that he wears in
jail, and so that`s how he appeared.
GRACE: Well, finally, somebody is talking sense.
The Seattle Transit Web camera showing you there`s live Seattle Transit cam. That`s going to be extremely important. We believe -- take a look at
this. We believe that he may end up being spotted between the baseball stadium, the Mariners stadium, her home, past where she works at Swedish
Medical, near the second set of remains.
And also, what was the murder weapon? If he had to go to a Home Depot or a Walmart or a Lowe`s to get the device, the saw, he had to have it with him.
Is he spotted on train, on bus with a duffel bag, with a backpack? That`s what we`re looking for.
You know, Dr. Panchali Dhar joining me, physician out of New York -- Dr. Dhar, another question. When they ultimately do find forensics, which I
believe they will, either under her nails, found on that trash conveyer belt -- you know, his chest was scratched up. He admits he had sex, he
slept with Ingrid that night.
Let me ask you this. I see this dissolving, degenerating into a rough sex defense.
DR. PANCHALI DHAR, PHYSICIAN: I agree.
GRACE: How long does it take to strangle somebody?
DHAR: OK, well, he`s stronger than her. Let`s just presume that.
GRACE: She fought.
DHAR: She fought, but he is a guy and he is stronger than her. So he strangled her. Now, if you are crushing the main arteries to the brain,
it`s called the carotid arteries, and decreasing blood flow to the brain,, you can knock off someone`s consciousness in about two or three minutes.
If he`s that strong...
GRACE: Two or three minutes.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Time to form intent.
Jonathan Wells joining me right now, telecommunications expert joining me out of Pleasanton. Dr. Wells, thank you for being with us. You know,
Kirby Clements, while I`m discounting what he and Carissa Kranz are saying as being untrue, we do have to prove it. It`s got to be proven. And if
there is no DNA, if he cleaned the scene as well as I think he did, how can we prove he`s there at the critical time and that he stays there until the
clean up is done through telecommunications, Jonathan?
JONATHAN WELLS, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT (via telephone): Well, one of the things we can do, Nancy, is if we`ve got access to his cell phone, we
can understand whether he made or received any calls or texts during that period of time. We can then use location services which will be able to
pinpoint the cell towers that he connected to and see roughly where he was at those periods when he was making or receiving calls or texts.
GRACE: Not only do we learn through jail documents, this guy is actually a dad -- I wonder who the mom is and where she is. Is she alive? But also,
he gets a big win. He doesn`t have to wear shackles anymore, says the judge.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:30:00] NANCY GRACE, HLN NANCY GRACE SHOW HOST: A gorgeous young Arlington couple vanish off the face of the earth, leaving no trace behind.
Their SUV found in remote woodland.
Breaking now, we obtain secret police files. We discover items of clothing soaked in blood and gasoline. A bag, rubber gloves, a tarp, towels. And
tonight, we, along with the FBI, track the killers on the run.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are asking for the public`s help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could a property dispute have led to the death of a beautiful couple? Cops saying possibly at the hands of two brothers now on
the run.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Dillon, thank you for being with us. What can you tell me about the discovery of blood and gasoline soaked clothes?
DILLON HONCOOP, KGMI 790 NEWS HOST: We are getting more and more details, Nancy, from probably what was the crime scene, what was probably the murder
scene on the former property of this guy that`s suspected of doing it, John Reed.
[20:35:10] We knew that there was blood on the bath tub. We knew there were blood soaked over all. Now, in addition, we`re also hearing about sacks
outside of that home near a fire pit with blood soaked clothing, also wreaked of gasoline.
You can put two and two together there, probably what was going on as these two killers, John Reed and his brother, Tony Reed were trying to get out of
the area.
GRACE: Let`s see a shot of Pat Shaunn and his beautiful young wife, Monique Patenaude. These two met at a concert, fell madly in love and
married. I think we may even have a wedding photo.
Long story short, there you go, their next door neighbors out in this remote woodland where they have their ranch, had a huge loss during a
landslide. They lost their land and their home was then condemned and bought by the government.
They have been bitter ever since. Interesting, these two, Pat Shunn and Monique Patenaude actually risked their lives after that slide to go and
check on their neighbors. But in their bitterness, apparently, a murderous intent formed.
You just heard Dillon from KGMI describing gasoline soaked clothes. And another thing we`re discovering from secret police documents that we have
obtained, Dillon, is that one of the brothers apparently bragged that he had kidnapped another man on a previous occasion, thrown him in the car
trunk, took him out into the woods where he dug shallow graves and basically intimidated him into refusing to testify against him in an
assault case.
That gives me an idea about what happened to Monique and Pat. What do you know about that, Dillon?
HONCOOP: Well, both of these brothers had a rap sheet a mile long, especially the brother Tony, who you are talking about. Again, like you
said, he bragged about being able to dispose a body. His brother also threatened to do that to other people around this landslide.
After the landslide happened a couple years ago, he was so angry with how things were going on, he made threats in public at public events put on by
FEMA that he was going to kill people and that they would never be found. And those are his words.
So, these guys both had it in their minds to do this kind of a crime, not just recently, but a long time ago. What`s scary here, though, is the trail
of money and how that may have started the whole thing. The money get down on Reid...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You are right. I`m going to get into that, Dillon Honcoop. Stacey Newman, in addition to the money trail. Let me ask you about a handgun
wrapped in plastic.
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes. Well, that was just one of many guns that have been found in this case. We don`t even have time to go
through it. Long guns, handguns, tons of ammunition found in this case. So, maybe that also plays a role in how the couple was killed.
GRACE: Yes. Just imagine living next to some anti-government nuts with a gun arsenal. You know, I want to look at the map we`ve created. We`re
tracking them along with the FBI to try to determine their movements. We know that the suspect`s former home, which was condemned, then nearby, I
think in Ellensburg, they tried to cash a $96,000 check for the land.
To Dillon Honcoop, KGMI, what are their whereabouts? Where they found the red BMW was found, then a plate reader, licensed tag reader hit on their
new car. We now know tonight that they got from two friends. They gave him 500 bucks and gave him their Acura, a Gold Acura and tag grabber. Let`s see
the map again, please. Where did the tag grabber grab that plate? Dillon?
HONCOOP: That`s just a couple of miles from the Mexican border in Calexico, California. That`s where this car was last seen. Now, well over a
week ago, and already detectives have gotten tips from Mexico they have been spotted in Mexico.
GRACE: Oh, really?
HONCOOP: That`s what going on, that`s what we assumed they were doing, was going to Mexico. And now what`s shocking about this to me is just how many
people helped them make that escape to Mexico, including the parents at Ellensburg that you talked about.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What do you mean? What do you mean who helped them escape? Who helped them escape?
HONCOOP: Well, their parents obviously took them in. The vehicle, the original vehicle was found there. John Reed`s pick-up truck with blood in
it.
[20:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: When a father and son both died just six months apart, their deaths are ruled, natural causes. But when the daughter is rushed to the hospital,
police take another look. Did a Springfield mom poison her family dead?
And why is mommy laughing and joking with hospital personnel while her family, one by one, drops dead? Tonight, we obtain the bombshell police
interrogation tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, I guess I could have taken her to the E.R. sooner, but I didn`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this got, he was such an interference and both to you just said you can`t take it anymore?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was more than a bother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A pest, would that be a good word for it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More than that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s quite a coincidence that your family begins to drop like flies, one by one. But what, if anything, does this police interrogation
tape prove?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:45:03] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I couldn`t get her to wake up. She didn`t respond to me so we took her to the emergency room.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So, you said on Saturday then, you said she was having some headaches and was throwing up?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But it wasn`t that bad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not that bad.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, I`ve seen the flu bug worse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t think...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, what did they -- what did they say at the hospital?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Basically she was as sick as sick could get.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But no idea what it was?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have to clue. Still don`t really have a clue. I mean, with her medical background, she`s bipolar.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My first thing is, did she get into something, you know, did she try to overdose or something? And then when I got home from
the E.R., I check her medicine. She had plenty of pills left, so I don`t think she OD`d on her medicine, but I have no clue.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Tell me everything that was going on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of arguments. Both Shaun and Sarah would just basically, I don`t know, trash the house. They would do whatever they
wanted to do and never helped support or even contribute. I should have just killed myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know what I love? I love that the police officer scoots his chair closer to her. He`s very close, he`s practically holding her hand,
he`s looking at her. And all the while, he is just waiting for her to say what really happened.
I mean, did you hear her blaming a flu bug? I mean, Kirby Clements, Carissa Kranz, did you hear her blame a flu bug? A flu bug, and then she tried to
say, maybe my daughter OD`d on drugs. Did you hear that, Carissa?
CARISSA KRANZ, MULTI STATE ATTORNEY: Yes, ma`am, I heard that.
GRACE: And?
KRANZ: It does mean, you know, well, I mean, what do you think that -- what do you think that implies, that she`s lying?
GRACE: Yes.
KRANZ: Or that she slipping up in her confession?
GRACE: I mean, the woman, the daughter is near death, Carissa, and she`s saying -- can I see Carissa, please? The daughter is in pain she`s dying.
One of it she has blood around her mouth and she`s saying, oh, yes, I have seen flu bugs a lot worse than that. They`re dead.
KRANZ: But that was the day before she said that it was flu-like symptoms. And then when she was at the hospital, that`s when she was as sick as sick
could get. So, I`m not sure if that really means she was lying. It might have started out like the a flu and then gotten progressively worse.
GRACE: Yes. It`s funny how antifreeze works like that. Listen to this, Carissa Kranz.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And how it did get started with Shaun?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shaun would be interfering with whatever I would do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, he was just a constant bother?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was almost to the point of inappropriate at times. I mean, to the point where he would walk into the bathroom if the door was
shut. I mean, just really bizarre stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you said he was such an interference that bothers you that you couldn`t take it anymore.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I guess more than a bother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More than a bother? OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would a pest, would that a good word for him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, it was more than that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even more than that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How would you describe it then?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, a lot to go explaining. It was to the point where I just wish I could leave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Hold on just a moment. Unleash the lawyers, Kirby Clements and Carissa Kranz. Kirby, did you hear her describing her son? He was a
constant bother. He was a pest and he would walk in on her in the bathroom.
If I had a nickel for every time one of my twins burst into the bathroom, I would be a millionaire, Kirby. So, why is he dead? That`s the worst she can
say? He broke into the bathroom on me?
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, her son wasn`t a toddler walking into the bathroom, that`s the first point, so let`s do away
with that juxtaposition. Secondly, looking at the way this woman talks, there is something not right with her. She doesn`t come across as some
cold-hearted killer.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I knew this was coming.
[20:50:01] CLEMENTS: You knew it was coming because it`s already there.
GRACE: Yes, I knew it was coming because there`s nowhere else you could go.
CLEMENTS: Well, clearly the way she`s describing everything and talking, this woman has something distinctly wrong with her.
GRACE: Yes, she`s a killer.
CLEMENTS: But the question is, why is she a killer. And my response...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You know, hold on. Harrison Keegan, the breaking news reporter with the Springfield News-Leader. Harrison, thank you for being with us. What is
stunning to me is it took three -- it took the father, the son, and then the daughter being rushed to the hospital before they even thought, hey,
this isn`t adding up. I mean, two of them dead in just six months.
HARRISON KEEGAN, SPRINGFIELD NEWS-LEADER REPORTER: Right. The first two deaths came pretty much back to back like that. And then medical examiner,
you know, looked at both deaths and they didn`t find any foul play.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[00:05:00] GRACE: So far, you`ve heard some of the police interrogation tapes. What, if anything, have they proven? Did this Springfield mom poison
her whole family? Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How long had you been giving her the antifreeze before they finally got -- like, before Shaun passed and before Sarah got to the
point that she was.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe a couple of days.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what were you putting it in?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Coca-Cola.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what else?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that was it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much would you put in?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a little bit?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And why just a little bit?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t want to hurt them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Just a little bit! I just put a little bit of antifreeze in my husband, my son, and my daughter`s Coca-Cola. OK. Can I just please get a
freeze frame on Kirby Clements and Carissa Kranz, I want to see them right now.
See, how are you taking it, guys. She just admitted. She just -- I just put a little bit of antifreeze. What, is that supposed to be what, voluntary
manslaughter because you just put a little, Carissa? They`re dead.
KRANTZ: She clearly confessed that she didn`t want to hurt them, but I guess killing them is a different category.
GRACE: OK.
KRANTZ: I don`t understand that.
GRACE: Can we just reflect back for a moment, Kirby, on her claims that, oh, I`ve seen flu bugs a lot worse than this.
CLEMENTS: You know what, this woman does.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What, tell me, Kirby, tell me.
CLEMENTS: I`m going to tell you, Nancy. Here it is. Number one, this is like watching (Inaudible) This woman has lost her mind, maybe she is having
a dementia outbreak.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Now we`re hitting insanity. I knew this was coming!
CLEMENTS: Maybe she starts from this month before -- who can describe giving antifreeze to their family members like comedy as she did?
GRACE: OK. Hold on. I`ve got to go to Chloe Carmichael. You know, you, too, we`re all just JD`s. Now we`ve got a doctor with us, Chloe Carmichael,
clinical psychologist. I`ve been saving you, Chloe, for this precise moment.
Did you hear her, Chloe, say, oh, that flu bug is worse than that. And maybe my daughter OD`d. He was such a pest. Finally, they confront her with
medical examiner results and she finally has to confess. Did you hear her say, oh, we put a little bit of antifreeze.
CHLOE CARMICHAEL, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST:: Yes.
GRACE: What do you make of it, Chloe?
CARMICHAEL: Well, it says it`s a passive aggression to the absolute extreme. It`s sociopathy, in my opinion. "I only put a little bit" really
denies and minimizes the suffering that she actively brought upon these people.
And she`s almost making herself out to be the victim here. Oh, well, they just weren`t contributing around the house, I really didn`t want to hurt
them, I only put a little bit of antifreeze, poor me. Its passive aggression really mixed with sociopathy.
GRACE: Joseph Scott Morgan, the death from antifreeze is excruciating.
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yes.
GRACE: And she tried to get -- she poisoned her daughter because the daughter wouldn`t pay off her student loans.
MORGAN: Right, wow. You know?
GRACE: I mean...
MORGAN: Hey, the thing about -- hey, the thing about antifreeze, ethylene glycol, is that it tastes very sweet. That`s why you don`t know that you`re
being poisoned.
GRACE: But hold on.
MORGAN: That`s why they`re feeling normal.
GRACE: I know it`s sweet. I know it`s sweet. That`s why dogs drink it. But Dr. Dhar, the death from antifreeze is so painful that she could do that to
her daughter and son, Dr. Dhar. What does it do to you, to ingest antifreeze. It`s horrible.
PANCHALI DHAR, PHYSICIAN: OK, so in the beginning, people are going to feel nauseous, they`re going to vomit, muscles are going to twitch. Kidneys
will fail.
GRACE: Everyone, we have to stop so we can remember an American hero, a marine captain, Tyler Swisher, 35, Cincinnati. Third tour, Purple Heart,
buried, Arlington.
Overcame learning disabilities to graduate from Butler with a biology degree. Parents David and Mary Beth, widow, Stephanie. Daughters, Ashley
and Madison. Son, Jacob. Tyler Swisher, American hero.
And congratulations to global marathon runner, Ronnie, honored by the Atlanta City Council for completing marathons in 50 states, 7 continents, 6
world marathons. Proud to know you, Ronnie.
Forensic Files is next. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us tonight. Nancy Grace signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow
night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then. Good night, friend.
[21:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
