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Nancy Grace
Judge Rules Cosby to Stand Trial; Bill Cosby Forced To Trial On Criminal Sex Assault; Young Mother Found Shot Dead With Her Deputy Boyfriend`s Gun; Remembering American Hero, Ohio Police Officer Sean Johnson. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired May 24, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. America`s dad, Bill Cosby, claiming an agency sends him young models on nearly a daily basis, and he
does it under oath in a deposition?
Bombshell tonight. It all comes to light just as he goes to court to learn his sex assault case will go to trial. And Bill Cosby`s legal woes go
bicoastal as the case going forward right now on other claims, these claims that he molested a then-15-year-old girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news that Bill Cosby will, in fact, stand trial in the criminal sexual assault case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Holds me to him, very aggressively, spins me around, reaches under my skirt, pulls my panties down, bends me over and does his
business.
PROTESTERS: Bill Cosby is a rapist!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A young mom found shot dead with her deputy boyfriend`s gun, her death ruled a suicide, but tonight stunning new claims it`s no suicide, it
was a homicide. Breaking now, Mommy`s body exhumed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) I think she just shot herself (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say O`Connell (ph) used Bank`s (ph) service revolver to commit suicide. The family never agreed.
911 OPERATOR: Is she still breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, there`s blood coming out of everywhere! Please!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. America`s dad, Bill Cosby, claims an agency sends him models on nearly a daily basis. He does it under oath. It`s all coming to
light just as he learns his case is going forward, Bill Cosby forced to trial on sex assault charges.
Joining me right now from the courthouse, CNN correspondent Jean Casarez. Well, Jean Casarez, it`s been a long time coming. Do you know, Jean,
according to many sources, the number of women that claim Cosby sexually assaulted them is up to 58. That`s 5-8, Jean, 58! What happened in court?
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we didn`t hear about those women today, but we do know the trial is going to go forward, and obviously,
those 58 women could become a part of this trial.
But today was the preliminary hearing, which is a very important procedure because, as you know, the issue was should this case be bound over for
trial. It was a packed courtroom. I`ve got to tell you, Nancy, I was sitting in the pew in the second row. All of a sudden, my seat got hit so
hard. And I`m like, this. It was Bill Cosby coming into the courtroom. He hit my pew because, remember, the defense has said he`s blind. He can`t
see. And he actually went into my pew as he was going up, being led on the other side to his defense bench.
He got to his defense bench, and then the proceeding began. The defense was so aggressive even before the prosecution put a witness on the stand.
The defense...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait! Hold on, Jean! Jean Casarez, joining me live from the courthouse. Jean, I hear what you`re saying about Cosby
losing his sight, or ostensibly losing his sight. I wonder if he could see that lady`s pants that says he gives her a Quaalude and she passes out and
Bill is going down her pants? Wow. I wonder if he could see that pants button that was not his to open.
What came out in court, Jean?
CASAREZ: Well, the defense would say it was 12 years ago and his eyesight has changed. Here`s what came out in court. The defense argued
strenuously before the prosecution even put the detective on the stand that they wanted Andrea Constand to take the stand. They wanted her. They
wanted to judge her demeanor. They wanted to cross-examine her because that was extremely important, they said, on the issue of consent, that this
was consensual, and her being on the stand would show that.
But the state of the law currently in Pennsylvania is Andrea Constand`s statement could be read through the detective that took it, and that is
what happened.
GRACE: Well, let me understand something, Jean. This is not a jury trial. The jury is the sole decision maker when it comes to credibility, in other
words, who to believe. It is not Bill Cosby`s right to put the alleged sex crime victim up on the stand today. Today is simply, as I understand the
law, a decision as to whether this case will go to trial. And if it does, at that time, yes, he has the 6th Amendment right to face his accuser.
Did I miss something?
[20:05:04]CASAREZ: Well, believe it or not, in Pennsylvania, up until last year, you had to put the accuser on the stand in the preliminary hearing.
It was required under law. But last year, the appellate court in Pennsylvania turned that all around and said, No, you don`t have to do
that. You can put the detective or someone else on the stand to read the statement. So that is what the prosecutor did. And the defense was not
able to cross-examine Andrea Constand.
GRACE: Jean Casarez, what is the crux of her statement? What does she allege Bill Cosby did?
CASAREZ: One night, middle of January to middle of February, 2004, Bill Cosby, her mentor, someone she trusted, invited her over to his home. She
went. She wanted to talk to him about her career because she was about to make a career change. She told him that she couldn`t sleep at night, it
was bothering her so much. Cosby said, Hold on, I`ve got something for you. He went upstairs. He came back down. He had blue pills in his hand
for her. He said, Look, take these. These will help you get the edge off things. She said, What is it? He said, It`s herbal.
She took them. He had wine. He said, Take a little bit of wine with it. She said she talked for about 20 minutes with him. And all of a sudden,
everything changed. Her legs became rubbery. She became blurred with her vision. She could not move. She had to lay down on the couch. And that`s
when Bill Cosby started to sexually assault her.
GRACE: And what does she say happened as she lay on the couch?
CASAREZ: She said that he came from behind, he sat behind, and she didn`t realize it at the time but felt that he was touching her breasts. And then
at that point, she realized he was touching her lower area. And the fact is, she also said that he had her hand touch him.
GRACE: Jean Casarez is with us at the courthouse, CNN correspondent.
Also with me, Candace Trunzo, senior news editor with the Dailymail.com. Isn`t it true Candace -- I want to follow up on what Jean Casarez says --
that Andrea Constand also says that after she`d been given an herbal pill to help relax her, that she wakes up and her bra`s been pulled up over her
breasts. And she gets up, Cosby`s standing there wearing nothing but a bathrobe. And he gives her a muffin, pushes her out the -- helps her out
the front door and goes, All right. And that`s that.
CANDACE TRUNZO, DAILYMAIL.COM: Yes, well, I mean, you know, the thing is, what Cosby`s lawyers are saying is that wasn`t quite that, that she was in
touch with him and saw him, in fact, went to his suburban Philadelphia house after that event.
She had moved to Canada, and then she was in touch with him again to get her tickets for his show. So the case that Cosby`s lawyers are making is
that it was no big deal then. Why should it be a big deal now?
GRACE: You`re seeing the Cosby show from NBC. That`s America`s dad, Dr. Huxtable.
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me Robin Ficker, Maryland, Brian Claypool, LA. Robin Ficker, first to you. What difference does it make if she did
have contact with him after? Very often, we see that happen with sex assault victims. They -- especially when the man is somebody you trust and
you look up to and you try to rationalize what happened. But she ultimately did go to police, Robin.
ROBIN FICKER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I believe there also may have been liaisons before this incident.
GRACE: Excuse me...
FICKER: It was a long-standing relationship. They worked together. They saw each other constantly.
GRACE: What do you mean by liaisons, more forced sex?
FICKER: Not forced sex, consensual sex between the two.
GRACE: Ah. OK. Hold on. Let`s explore that. With me, Jean Casarez at the courthouse, Rita Cosby, investigative journalist and WABC host. Rita,
I don`t recall anything regarding consensual sex, or as Robin Ficker says, liaisons.
RITA COSBY, WABC HOST: Not according to the woman. But Bill Cosby does say that there were some, quote, "petting sessions" between him and this
woman beforehand. However, Nancy, she says that he did make attempts to get physical with her, and she rebuffed him both times prior to this
incident.
GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. You say "petting sessions." Candace Trunzo with the Dailymail, that is not exactly how Andrea Constand describes it.
From what I can see, she says that on two previous occasions, Bill Cosby tried to feel her up and she left.
TRUNZO: That`s right. On those two occasions, he tried to do something, but she -- he did not drug her or do anything to impair her, her ability to
get up and walk out because she was uncomfortable.
GRACE: Joining me right now is Carla Ferrigno. She is titled as a, quote, "Cosby accuser." I don`t think that`s appropriate. I don`t see Carla
Ferrigno as a Cosby accuser. Based on what she`s saying, she`s a Cosby survivor.
[20:10:20]Carla, I want the hear your response to the judge today saying to Bill Cosby, You will go to trial on sex charges.
CARLA FERRIGNO, COSBY ACCUSER (via telephone): I was so excited, Nancy. And first of all, I just want to say how fantastic you are, and I just love
you to death...
GRACE: Thank you.
FERRIGNO: ... and what you do. And I was so excited, and I feel so -- I am -- I feel like crying, I am so excited that this has happened. Like,
it`s just -- it`s been such a long journey. And I`m...
GRACE: Carla...
(CROSSTALK)
FERRIGNO: Everybody`s been afraid that nothing was going to happen with this man and it is happening.
GRACE: You`re seeing "Ghost Dad" from Universal Pictures.
Carl, this is what I don`t get. Why does everyone find it so much easier to think that all these women are lying versus just one person is lying,
Cosby? Why is it easier to discount, throw mud at, drag through the mud all these alleged victims? Why is it easier to do that than believe Cosby
did this?
FERRIGNO: Because people just really still want to believe in him and the idea of who he really is -- of who he is instead of who he really is. They
don`t want to look at that at all. Even my husband -- and by the way, my husband said to say hello to you.
GRACE: Hi, Lou.
FERRIGNO: Yes. I mean, even my husband said, I don`t really want to hear about it, Carla. Like, in the very beginning, when I first told him in
2005, he said, I don`t -- I just don`t want to know about it. And he pretty much...
GRACE: So upsetting, Carla, because it`s upsetting. And when you love -- you`re his wife. He loves you more than anything in the world. Of course
it hurts him to hear that this happened.
And you know what else is a problem? You know what else is a problem? And I`m speaking as a crime victim myself. I`ve worked with so many rape
victims, so many child molestation victims. And when they feel that their voice is never heard, that it just doesn`t matter, it adds to the pain. It
never gets better.
And until today, that is how 58 women, allegedly, that we know of, felt about -- feel about Bill Cosby. But according to a judge today, he is not
going to get away from it. We never thought this day would come. Bill Cosby is being forced to trial on criminal sex assault charges. The
victims were finally heard. It is happening. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t breathe because I haven`t slept in weeks, and you know, I just -- you know -- you know, Bill -- with everything that`s
going on, I haven`t been able to breathe like the whole nation is doing right now, protesting. I am protesting because of the unresolved issues
due to rape from Bill Cosby.
I`m just starting to exhale. And I will say this. You know, I sobbed all weekend not just for me, for what`s going on with these other women. I`m
in huge gratitude to the Los Angeles Police Department, you know? Thank you, guys and gals out there. You know, it`s about time that this guy gets
his comeuppance.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:17:56]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do not know how many women or if any of them will be allowed to come in and testify to patterns.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I said, You raped me, Bill Cosby. You raped me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s a serial rapist, actually.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bruise marks all over me. I knew I was raped by him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An opportunist always on the ready perhaps for his next victim.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is stalking (INAUDIBLE) He`s a predator.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bill Cosby`s a (INAUDIBLE) rapist!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Bombshell tonight. America`s dad, world-famous comedian Bill Cosby, is finally answering up to Lady Justice. There you see him coming
in court in the last hours, in court, where a judge rules there is sufficient evidence for one of the many claims against him to go forward to
a jury trial. And the defense fought tooth and nail, even screaming, yelling at the judge.
Rita Cosby, WABC, why was the defense screaming at the judge? How do you get away with that? If I had screamed at a judge, which I felt like doing
every single day, I would have been held in contempt.
COSBY: Yes, he was shouting and basically saying, This isn`t right and also saying, Look, this is an old case, that it was over and done with, in
his words, years ago, and why are you dredging it up now.
And by the way, they also released a statement soon afterwards, Nancy, too, after court today essentially saying that they`re clearly going to go after
Andrea Constand`s character and inconsistencies in her story.
GRACE: You know, the case isn`t over, if you ask the alleged victim. It is far from over.
That`s "Mother Jugs and Speed" from 20th Century Fox.
Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I remember his robe coming off. I remember he`d been smoking cigars. He smelled real bad. Real bad body odor the guy had.
Bad. He had deep cigar breath and coffee breath.
That`s when he mounted me. He got on top of me. I remember, like -- I don`t know what happened to the camera then. And that`s when the last
thing I remember -- I don`t even remember dialogue.
[20:20:14]The last thing I remember was him getting on top of me and sticking it in, put his penis inside of me. And I don`t remember, but you
know, I remember the pain. And I remember pain, just a lot of pain downstairs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, I`m told to say that this is graphic testimony. And that is why a lot of rape victims don`t come forward, a lot of sex assault
victims, because it`s a distasteful topic. Nobody wants to talk about it. Well, how about being a sex assault victim and nobody wanting to talk about
that?
You are seeing "The Cosby Show" from NBC.
I also spoke with Linda Kirkpatrick (ph). Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA KIRKPATRICK, COSBY ACCUSER: I thought I`d wet my pants. I thought I had wet my pants because my clothes were so wet that I thought I had
urinated myself the following morning.
GRACE: You mean, the pants that you wore the night before?
KIRKPATRICK: My underclothes were wet.
GRACE: And to this day, you remember that moment.
KIRKPATRICK: I do. But I couldn`t tell you what my underclothes looked like or if my -- I don`t even know what I wore that night. I just remember
thinking, I think I wet my pants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, to Katherine McKee joining me, called a Cosby accuser -- some people call her a Cosby survivor -- along with Carla Ferrigno.
Katherine, when I heard Linda Kirkpatrick say that, I didn`t know whether to be angry or to just cry. And I want to hear your response to a judge
finally making this guy answer up and go to trial.
KATHERINE MCKEE, COSBY ACCUSER (via telephone): I think it`s a big relief for all of the women, including myself, that the spotlight is going to be
on him. The truth is going to come out. And maybe some sort of justice is finally going to be found because, you know, the reason most of the women
never came forward is exactly what Bill Cosby`s defense attorney said today. They were going to go after everybody. They`re going to come after
everybody. They`re going to everything in their power to break the women down.
It`s horrible. It`s disgusting. People have turned on the victim. I heard you earlier, Nancy, say you were wondering about that. And why is
that? Instead of believing us, they want to believe him because the power that Bill Cosby had, the money that Bill Cosby has, all of his friends in
show business.
You know how many people looked the other way, pretended they didn`t know or know what was going on or see what was going on, keep their mouth shut.
Be quiet. Just let it be. Don`t interfere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:27:38]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I knew that he had drugged me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I woke up in a bed naked, bruised.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A glass of red wine. My panties were in disarray and bunched up. And he was leaning over me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The last thing I remember was him getting on top of me and sticking it in, put his penis inside of me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I started yelling very, very drugged. I woke up naked in his bed with him next to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To think that all of these ladies are lying, now we believe 58 of them, middle-aged ladies that have gone on from Cosby, have their own life
going, now coming forward. Well, it may all end as of today with a judge insisting that Bill Cosby will finally face criminal prosecution.
How long could we pretend we don`t hear these women? How long could the public act as if they`re all lying, Cosby`s the only one telling the truth?
To Candace Trunzo, Dailymail.com. If he is found guilty on these charges, how long will he do behind bars? And what about his $400 million, alleged,
fortune?
TRUNZO: Yes. Well, here`s the thing, Nancy. If they do -- if he is declared guilty and he goes to prison, 10 years in prison at most and
$25,000 in fines. This is a multi-millionaire who, even if he is convicted, will not pay the price by any means. Of course, he`s only --
he`s 78 years old. You know, who knows what`s going to happen? But you know, there`s going to be delay, delay, delay, appeals, delay, appeals,
delay.
GRACE: I just want to hear what the potential sentence is. you`re telling me, Candace, 10 years? Is that right?
TRUNZO: Ten years. That`s it.
GRACE: Well, hold on. Rita Cosby, WABC -- you`re seeing from 20th Century Fox right now -- Rita, Candace just says it`s 10 years, but there is
another case rearing its head on the West Coast of a then-15-year-old girl that claims Cosby molested her. That`s a civil case going forward. What`s
happening with that?
COSBY: Yes, that hasn`t been agreed to go forward. And that is in the midst of that case.
[20:30:00] There`s also defamation cases. There`s a number of other cases against him.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A young mother found shot dead with her deputy boyfriend`s gun. Her death first ruled a suicide, but tonight stunning new claims it`s homicide.
Breaking tonight, mommy`s body exhumed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:35:00] JEREMY BANKS, MICHELLE O`CONNELL`S DEPUTY BOYFRIEND: I heard it pop and I knew exactly what it was. Just instinct. I said "Oh, (BLEEP)!"
and I ran inside.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly what happened to this young mother?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jeremy, are you in the same room with her?
BANKS: Yes. I`m holding her hand.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right. How is she doing?
BANKS: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does it look like she`s breathing at all?
BANKS: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I don`t understand why the boyfriend has gunshot residue on his hand. And I don`t understand why, if she shot herself with the gun in her
own mouth, why the gun does not have her DNA on it.
I don`t understand that. In fact, there`s a lot I don`t understand about this case. Why did her family have to have her body exhumed in the search
for answers? But this is what I do know. It all starts right here with the 911 call. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911.
BANKS: Hey, please get someone to my house. It`s (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s going on?
BANKS: Please. My girlfriend, I think she just shot herself. There`s blood everywhere. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She what?
BANKS: She shot herself. Please. Get somebody here. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma`am, ma`am, I`m gonna need you to calm down.
BANKS: It`s sir. It`s sir. It`s sir. Listen, hang on. Let me tell you the truth. I`m Deputy Banks with the St. John`s County Sheriff`s Office. I work
with y`all. Get someone here NOW.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I need you to calm down then. You know how it goes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s going on there?
BANKS: My girlfriend just shot herself with my weapon. Please get someone here now. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir, we`re doing that while I`m talking to you. Is she still breathing?
BANKS; No. There`s blood coming out of everywhere. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, she`s not breathing?
BANKS: Call dispatch on Tac 2. Get them here now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir, they are on the phone. I need you to calm down.
BANKS: Please, please, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jeremy, we`re coming as fast as we can, OK? Calm down for me, OK?
BANKS: Please. You don`t understand.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re coming as quick as we can.
BANKS: She just shot herself. Please get someone here! Please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jeremy, Jeremy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jeremy, are you in the same room with her?
BANKS: Yes, I`m holding her hand.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right. How is she doing?
BANKS: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does it look like she`s breathing at all?
BANKS: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No?
BANKS: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No? OK.
BANKS: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right.
BANKS: No. Please get them here now. Get `em here now!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jeremy, can you leave the room? Jeremy, is there someone else there with you?
BANKS: I don`t want to leave.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, is there someone else there?
BANKS: Nobody`s here. I don`t want to leave.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I understand, Jeremy, but is there someone else there with you?
BANKS: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I have two special guests with me, Matt Doran with "Crime Watch Daily". Also with me Sean O`Connell, the brother of the victim, the female
victim. Clu Wright with me, Private Investigator, who has worked on the case.
I want to go first to Matt Doran with "Crime Watch Daily". The family has to exhume the body themselves? I mean, that sounds bass ackwards to me
because as a prosecutor for all those years, Matt Doran, I felt that I represented the people including my crime victims, and I wanted to do the
right thing.
And when your victim`s family has to exhume the body? Something`s not right with that. Just tell me what happened. Give it to me in a nutshell.
MATT DORAN, "CRIME WATCH DAILY" HOST: Nancy, to describe that decision as painful is an understatement, of course, but then subsequently get your
head around this. The sheriff has come out and described it as a molestation of Michelle in her resting place, this decision by the family
to exhume the body which I said was taken ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Who said that?
DORAN: The sheriff. The sheriff from the county that looked into this investigation.
GRACE: I want to warn you what you`re about to see is graphic. These are crime scene photos.
To Sean O`Connell, brother of Michelle, who was killed. Now, I want to point out she`s right-handed but the gun is found with her body on top of
the holster by her left hand.
That is the significance of this crime scene photo. Look at this. Now, it`s not just that it`s on her left side but is that her hand. Her arm is
actually placed on top of the holster with the wrong hand.
Sean O`Connell joining me out of Jacksonville. Why did your family feel it was so critical you had to exhume your sister`s body?
SEAN O`CONNELL, BROTHER OF MICHELLE O`CONNELL: It was a very hard decision for my family to make, and ultimately it was up to my mom.
But -- we felt like we weren`t getting the answers that we needed. There were so many facts and there were so many turns in this case, and the
sheriff`s office wouldn`t do their job. They didn`t do the basic police work on day one. They closed the case in two hours.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Sean, I knew they closed the case, but you`re saying they closed the case in two hours?
[20:40:00] O`CONNELL: In my opinion they closed it extremely fast. They ruled it -- they deemed it a suicide, I imagine in the first two hours. And
the night that she died, I went into the house where she was at. I got pulled over by the cops.
I told them we weren`t doing anything illegal. And I went to the house and I demanded an outside investigation minutes from her death, an hour max
from her death.
And I demanded an outside investigation from the FDLE or either the FBI and I was threatened, told that I would be arrested if I didn`t leave.
GRACE: You were told you would be arrested if you didn`t leave? This is the night your sister is shot dead?
O`CONNELL: Yes.
GRACE: OK. Let me -- let me understand something. Clu Wright is joining me, the P.I. who worked on the case for the O`Connell family. It is true that
Michelle was breaking up with him that day?
CLU WRIGHT, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Nancy, yes, it is true. We have evidence that Michelle was breaking up with Jeremy Banks that night.
She actually broke up with him that night. She also mentioned to her sister earlier in the day that she was going to break up with Jeremy that night.
GRACE: You know, Matt Doran, with "Crime Watch Daily", I don`t understand. Was the case deemed to be a suicide in just two hours? And why did he have
gunshot residue on his hands?
DORAN: Nancy, look, it wasn`t certainly closed within two hours, but they very early on started working on that theory that it was a suicide. And to
your point about this gunshot residue, well, if you went into a room within eight minutes of a gunshot, you`re likely to accumulate ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What?
DORAN: ... some gunshot residue on your hands.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, Matt Doran. I know you`re the expert there. You`re the host of "Crime Watch Daily," but Joe Scott
Morgan, Certified Death Investigator and Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University.
Can I see Joe Scott? Joe Scott, I have never in my life -- I don`t even know how many thousands of felonies I handled -- seen somebody walk into a
room and not touch anything and walk out with gunshot residue on their hands.
DR. JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Gunshot residue testing is probably one of the single-most unreliable tests that there is.
That is known far and wide in the forensic community.
There have been people that work in munitions factories that they do these gunshot residue tests on and they test negative ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I couldn`t hear what you said. Did you say that they fire guns and they don`t have gunshot residue on them?
MORGAN: They are around, they`re around all manner of propellants all day long and they test negative for being ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Yeah, I mean, I`ve never handled a single homicide or suicide where people walk in the room and they walk out with gunshot residue on your
hands. I mean, typically you get gunshot residue on your hands when you are right on it. When a gun is fired. Or you`re at least within a couple of
feet from the gunshot.
MORGAN: Based on my experience, I would not bet the farm on that. It`s not wholly scientifically reliable in every one of the cases.
GRACE: OK, listen to this 911 call to see what we can learn.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you come out of the room?
BANKS: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on. Can you walk out of the room?
BANKS: No, I`m not armed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
BANKS: Please, I`ll (inaudible) everything when they get here, but just get `em here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know. Where`s the gun at now, Jeremy?
BANKS: It`s right next to her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right.
BANKS: It`s right next to her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right. Can you walk out to the front door?
BANKS: No, I`m not leaving.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
BANKS: I`m not. I don`t care. I`m not leaving.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right. That`s fine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michelle O`Connell was found dead inside this St. Augustine home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michelle lost her life. It was taken.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we need to get to the bottom of it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The St. John`s County Sheriff`s Office found O`Connell dead on the floor of her boyfriend`s home, another deputy, Jeremy Banks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just said that (BLEEP) deserved what she got. And yeah, that struck me as weird.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me right now is Janet Johnson, attorney for the Michelle O`Connell family. Janet, I want to thank you for being with us.
Janet, I`m very confused about the animosity or the contention between the prosecution or the sheriff, basically, law enforcement, and the victim`s
family.
What`s going on? Why are they so convinced that this was a suicide and not a homicide? And how can, physically, you put a gun in your mouth and you
shoot yourself, and the gun has no DNA whatsoever on it? None. How can that be?
JANET JOHNSON, ATTORNEY FOR FAMILY OF MICHELLE O`CONNELL: Right. Well the animosity -- I`m with you, Nancy. I work with law enforcement all the time
in an adversarial system and I don`t see this kind of hostility.
So, you know, that`s what makes you kind of wonder why are they that hostile about one of their own potentially being a suspect when there is
probable cause to potentially bring this to a grand jury.
You know, in terms of the physics of it, it doesn`t add up. And you know, she had a broken jaw that had been ignored and that could not possibly have
been created by the gun, which is their theory. So none of it adds up.
[20:50:00] GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Robin Ficker, Maryland; Brian Claypool, L.A. So Brian, were you aware that she -- it was discovered much
later, of course, I assume, upon the exhumation where her own family had to dig her body up.
They found out that her jaw was actually broken and that there was no soft tissue damage around her jaw, and that`s a cheerful day to have your
child`s body exhumed.
So, in other words, what I`m saying, Claypool, is that the bullet didn`t cause the fracture to her jaw because it would have gone to the soft
tissue, the gum, the blood, the tongue maybe. All of that to fracture the jaw.
So the jaw, apparently was fractured pre-mortem, before she died. And -- put up Claypool, please.
Another thing, she has a cut over her eye. How did that happen? Another thing, Claypool -- I`m not arguing with you, gentlemen. I`m on a fact-
finding mission here. I`m not taking anybody`s side, but her tongue was jammed down her throat. OK?
Now, the bullet goes from here back to around C3, that`s how that happened. But her tongue had been crammed down her throat. I`ve never seen that at
another suicide, have you ever seen that, Brian?
BRIAN CLAYPOOL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I haven`t. This is a heart-breaking story, but I will tell you, unfortunately, let`s start with the broken jaw.
Just because you have a broken jaw doesn`t tell us when her jaw was broken and what was the mechanism that broke her jaw? So that fact is still left
unsolved.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: So let`s ask her brother. That`s a good point, Brian. Sean, O`Connell, did you have any idea your sister had a broken jaw? I think I
would have known about it.
O`CONNELL: At the night of the concert, she seemed to talk fine to me. She didn`t look like in any pain that night at the concert, hours before she
died when we were at a Paramore concert.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: So she didn`t have a broken jaw then?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You know, Dr. Daniel Bober, Forensic Psychiatrist, I want to hear your thoughts on this. I mean, I don`t see this as a family going blindly,
making accusations, at least there should be a different and an independent investigation. I want to hear your thoughts.
DR. DANIEL BOBER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Nancy, this case stinks in so many ways. There are so many circumstantial pieces of physical evidence that,
taken all together, point to a very different conclusion that people are drawing.
And as your previous guest said before, the fact that this agency is investigating one of their own is a complete conflict of interest and bias
from the very beginning.
So I think that we really need to take a step back and start looking at this with much more objective eyes.
[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BANKS: I didn`t remember exactly what she said, but I remember she said sometimes you make me want to kill myself.
I told her I loved her and I asked her not to do anything stupid because of a couple of months ago she had made that comment so I was just so worried
about her and she said Jeremy I`m not going to do anything stupid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Why did this woman`s family feel they had to exhume her body to find out the truth? Why was there none of her DNA on the weapon that they claim
she shot herself with in the mouth?
She was planning, to my understanding, to break up that day with her deputy boyfriend. Let me ask you this, Joe Scott Morgan, wasn`t she leaving little
children behind?
MORGAN: Yeah, that`s my understanding, that there was a small child. Certainly at least one that I know of, that she would have been leaving
behind, yes.
GRACE: Yeah. You know, Clu Wright, P.I. for the O`Connell family, and again, this guy, Jeremy Banks, has never been charged, the boyfriend. Nor
am I charging him tonight. I`m not.
I just want answers. I don`t understand these piece -- these facts we are presenting.
Clu Wright, P.I., with the victim`s family, why is there none of her DNA on the gun that they claim she shot herself with in her mouth? And if she had
wrapped the gun in something, say for instance a shirt, shouldn`t that have been seized at the scene?
WRIGHT: Well Nancy, none of her DNA was found on the gun itself, and also there was no blood on the gun especially when they sent it to the FDLE Lab,
there was nothing.
However, if you go back and look, when they -- the gun was on the bathroom counter, there was some type of blood there. So when the FDLE had gotten
there to go on and test it for blood, somebody had wiped that -- somebody had wiped that gun -- that gun clean.
And also, if you notice, on the crime scene photos, there`s a shirt above Michelle O`Connell`s head that`s on the bed. That shirt has blood on it.
And also what appears to be a bullet hole in that shirt with the outline of a gun.
That shirt could have possibly been put in her mouth and that`s when the gunshot occurred, I believe, and that`s why there is no blow back, no
spattering, there are no stifling. And when even when somebody commits suicide ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Hold on. Robin Ficker, Brian Claypool, also with me, special guest Janet Johnson and Sean O`Connell.
Ficker, what`s the problem with reopening this with an independent investigator? I mean, for the sake of justice.
ROBIN FICKER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Because it`s been investigated ad nauseam. The family should let it go.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well then where was the blood ...
(CROSSTALK)
FICKER: They`re exhuming six years later.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... on the gun. You tell me that. you tell me why that -- that gun had been wiped clean and I`ll let this go.
FICKER: The gun didn`t have to be in the mouth. It may have been close to the mouth when she fired it.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK. All right. All right. OK.
Everyone, let`s stop and remember, American hero, Ohio Police Officer Sean Johnson, just 46. Hilliard Police, also Fairfield County Sheriff`s and Air
Force vet. A gentle giant. Mother, Rebecca; sister, Luann; brother, Mark; children, Nicholas and Olivia. Sean Johnson, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace, signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp, Eastern. And
until then, good night, friend.
[21:00:00]
END
