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Nancy Grace
Grand Jury to Weigh Charges Against Orlando Shooter`s Wife; Two- Year-Old Toddler Atatcked by Alligator at Disney Resort. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired June 15, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you know your husband was going to do this?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Salman denied knowing Mateen`s plot to carry out the deadliest shooting in U.S. history.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Blood is everywhere. And then there was a moment when he stopped.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Be quiet. Be quiet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Multiple rounds of ammunition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) start going through the stall wall towards us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bang, bang, bang. It was (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ll never forget the steady, Pow, pow, pow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening, I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Breaking right now, terror attack on U.S. soil, over 100 dead and injured in the worst mass shooting in U.S. history as the shooter pledges
allegiance to evil ISIS.
Breaking now. Is his wife facing criminal charges?
And tonight, a 2-year-old toddler boy attacked by a 7-foot alligator, dragged into an ornamental lagoon at Disney.
But first, the Orlando terror attack. Straight out to Mike Galanos joining us there on the scene. Mike Galanos, right now, we are getting word that a
grand jury will be convened to consider charges against the shooter`s wife. So everything that you and I have been discussing and speculating during
the past three days has come true.
What do we know about the wife?
MIKE GALANOS, HLN NEWS ANCHOR: Here`s what we know at this point, Nancy. Noor Salman is her name. She knew that her husband wanted to carry out a
jihadist attack. Reportedly, she tried to talk him out of it.
But let`s go further. What was she a part of? She was with him when he bought ammunition. She went with him when he went to the Pulse nightclub
just right behind me a couple of times, went with him to Disneyworld as a family in April. Was that a scouting surveillance mission? Went with him
again in June.
What could be the charges? That she knew and said nothing to law enforcement, and that`s at the lower end. Did she have out-and-out
involvement? Those are the things that are being looked into, as well.
GRACE: Joining me also, Chris Spargo, reporter, Dailymail.com. Chris, thank you for being with us. You know, another issue regarding the wife --
for those of you just joining us, we are learning that a prosecutor, the U.S. attorney, is planning to take the wife to a grand jury. They are
mulling right now what charges, if any, to present to a federal grand jury.
I mean, Chris Spargo, according to what you guys are reporting, she tried to talk him out of the mass shooting. He left that night -- I mean, how
can I believe -- how can I jive or reconcile the two stories that she says she tried to talk him out of it and he told her he was going to visit
friends that night and she believed it? They can`t both be true, Chris Spargo.
CHRIS SPARGO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): You`re absolutely right. I mean, that`s the biggest thing, too, is that he`d been -- they`d been
planning this. She`d been with him on scouting trips. And then suddenly, on Saturday night, he says late at night he`s going to go see some friends
just before midnight, and she doesn`t think about it.
And now she`s saying that she could have stopped him, but she didn`t. And that`s why they`re going to convene this grand jury and they`re going to
decide if they`re going to indict her.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Troy Slaten and Mindy Smith. To you, Troy Slaten. One of the charges is called misprision, and that means, really,
aiding and abetting. And it`s rarely used. Now, we did see it in the Charleston shooting case. Remember the guy that goes into the church in
Charleston, he sits there during a prayer session, and then suddenly unleashes a hail bullets, killing so many? That was used in that case with
an accomplice, so to speak, of the Charleston shooter. So it is used.
What do you make of it, Slaten?
TROY SLATEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: In order for the federal government to be successful in prosecuting her for misprision of a felony, they have to show
that not only did she know that he was going to do it, not only did she fail to tell them, but that took some sort of overt act to hide it
afterwards, as well.
GRACE: Well, wait a minute! Wait a minute! Wait a minute! Mindy Smith, that sounds just like a conspiracy charge. We know the overt act would be
going with him to buy ammunition that he used that night, casing the location on multiple occasions, talking about jihad with him, trying to
talk him out of it, and then not talking him out of it. And then he goes, and she doesn`t call police. That would be the overt acts.
MINDY SMITH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, it takes more than just knowing that he had jihadi tendencies.
[20:05:02]GRACE: That`s not what I just said, Mindy.
SMITH: She would have -- the prosecutors will have to show that she took an affirmative step. That means lying to the federal prosecutors once she
was interviewed, trying to cover up evidence. Hiding...
GRACE: OK, let`s talk about that. Let`s talk about what Mindy and Slaten are saying.
Ray Caputo joining me, WDBO. What do you understand, Ray Caputo, that the feds have on the wife? Now, do you know their history, Ray Caputo? Do you
know how they got married, how they met?
RAY CAPUTO, WDBO (via telephone): Well, just like the ex-wife, Mateen met her on line. I know that she comes from a Palestinian descent. But I also
know that just like Mateen, she was -- she didn`t all too religious. She wasn`t hung up on her religion.
But here`s (INAUDIBLE) what I think is most interesting about his wife, current wife. You learn from what -- his relationship with his ex-wife and
that he had this woman under his thumb. I mean, one bit of evidence, and it is shocking, is that he didn`t want her to get a driver`s license. And
only recently, this 30-year-old woman for the first time in her life started driving. So he seemed to have some control over this woman. And
that was the same thing we saw with his ex-wife.
GRACE: OK, Matt Zarrell, what do we know about this woman?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, we know that she told the FBI that there were violent changes in her husband`s behavior and
that he specifically talked with her about is interesting in carrying out a jihadist attack. One thing that`s important here is we don`t know how far
back he may have told her this information.
But they had visited both Pulse nightclub and Disney Springs in early June together and the visits were intended to case locations for possible
attacks. One thing we don`t know is while they were casing the locations, how much at that point did the wife know, and how much did the wife learn
between the early June visits and when he went to Pulse nightclub Saturday night?
GRACE: You know, it would spark my interest, Chris Spargo, Dailymail.com, if I`m doing a ride along with my husband and he goes in an buys an assault
rifle. I would be suspicious, right?
SPARGO: Exactly. And right around that time, just a week before. This wasn`t a long while out.
GRACE: Also with me is Jason Gonzalez, who survived the shooting. We`re going to go to him.
But first, before I do that, what I want you to hear now is the shocking evidence that in the midst of the shooting, maybe in an effort to gain
notoriety, the shooter, Mateen, actually calls a local TV station. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was at 2:45 when I had just received the phone call of someone claiming to be the Orlando shooter. I answered the phone as I
always do, News 13, this is Matt. And on the other end, I heard, Do you know about the shooting? And I said, Yes, I`m getting information. I`m
receiving some calls right now. And he cut me off and he said, I`m the shooter.
And I didn`t know what to say. It was, you know, alarming, to say the least. He sounded really calm on the phone. And he started saying that he
did it for the Islamic State. He did it for ISIS.
He started saying, I did it for ISIS, I did it for the Islamic State, again. And I didn`t know what to say to him. I was just blown away.
And I asked him, you know, Who is this? Where are you? And he told me that`s none of my f-ing business. He wouldn`t tell me who he was. He
wouldn`t tell me where he was. But he wanted me to know that he did this for ISIS and he did this shooting for the Islamic State.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is from News 13 in Orlando.
So why did he do it? We are also learning, Mike Galanos, that the wife is saying that he became radicalized during the last year.
So how does that factor into the fact that a grand jury, according to some sources, is convened and U.S. prosecutors, federal prosecutors are now
taking the wife to a grand jury for charges? How does that fit into the scenario? What piece of the puzzle does that fit in for us?
GALANOS: Well, you`re are laying out a puzzle that is heading toward what you`re talking about, a grand jury looking at charges -- radicalized --
also reports that his behavior had changed. He was becoming more violent. And then you couple that with what we have been talking about, he wants to
carry out a jihadist attack.
And then you`ve got the common sense question about casing the place behind me, the Pulse nightclub. Are you, as a wife, going to drive with your
husband to a gay nightclub, and then just send him off to go have a good time? There`s a lot of common sense questions in that, as well, not to
mention the fact of casing out a place like Disney or Disney Springs, as it`s called now, which is nightclubs and restaurants and places where
families go and the multitude of carnage he may have been looking out to carry out there.
[20:10:00]GRACE: OK, so another issue is, Galanos, is when she went with him to Pulse, which is the gay nightclub, did she go in or did she drop him
off? Did she help him case it? Did they drive around and around it? What was the nature of her taking him? Did she go in with him, I guess, would
be my basic question, Mike.
GALANOS: That is the question we all want to know. And at this point, we do not have that answer, Nancy, and that could be very damming if we`re
finding out she`s in there with him and sizing up the place in full.
GRACE: But this is not over, Mike Galanos, because not only are they taking her to a grand jury, a federal grand jury, according to reports, for
felony charges as a result of the shooting at Pulse nightclub, but they are also combing through his cell phone, his computer, his laptop to find out,
are there other people who radicalized him? Did he talk about this to anybody else? Did somebody help him plan and execute this -- this carnage?
What do you know, Mike?
GALANOS: Here`s the situation concerning his phone we know, that as SWAT blew a hole open in the Pulse nightclub to help rescue 30-some people and
then have the deadly confrontation with the gunman -- when they did that, a water main broke and his phone ended up being submerged in water and blood.
That`s why they`re having challenges getting more information.
However, they`re going to his server and they`re getting valuable information, phone calls made, e-mails, texts. Who was he in contact with?
And what was their level of involvement in what was carried out?
GRACE: You know, another thing, Chris Spargo with Dailymail.com -- Chris, I find it very difficult to believe that nobody helped him, that nobody was
in on this but him. I find that really hard to believe.
SPARGO: Yes. And we do know that he had contact with one friend -- they`re not revealing the identity of that friend -- during the attack. So
we do know there were certainly people in his life that he talked to. But right now, they`re not really giving a lot of details about his personal
life, and not very many people seem to have been close to him other than his wife. So we are having a hard time trying to find out who he might
have been talking to.
GRACE: What I`m saying is it seems to me that everything is quieting down because he died. It is not over! I want answers! Was the wife in on
this? Sure, she`s cooperating now. I guess she is, to save her own skin. We`ll see what a grand jury says. But are there others that helped unleash
this murderous hate on innocent Americans?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:16:44]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Mom, I`ve been shot in the arm. Help me, please. I`m scared." She`s, like, "I`m bleeding so bad."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t understand why God took him away. I don`t understand!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just keep seeing the face.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My heart is broken! It`s never going to heal. It`ll never heal. It`ll never be the same.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The FBI still processing the scene as we go to air tonight, this as we learn a federal grand jury will be presented, according to reports, with
charges against Mateen`s wife. Although everyone keeps screaming, She`s cooperating, she`s cooperating -- what did she know, if anything, about
this shooting?
Could she have stopped it? Did she go with her husband to case the location, as well as Disney, where children are? Did she go with him to
buy ammunition? Did she go in and out of Pulse nightclub? Did she try to stop him that night and then sit by idly while he massacred innocent
Americans? What are the answers? A federal grand jury will be addressing that.
But how did these two get hooked up to start with? To Matt Zarrell, how did these two meet? What is their history? That`s what I`m trying to find
out.
ZARRELL: Well, the romance began with Mateen meeting her on line, and so the relationship apparently blossomed from there. They got married in
September 2011, near her hometown. It`s about 25 miles northeast of San Francisco. She actually grew up in the U.S. Her family`s from -- has
Palestinian roots.
A neighbor told the Associated Press that the first marriage, that this wife had actually been arranged in the Palestinian territories by her
parents, and that the union did not work out because he did not grow up in America and she did.
Now, the neighbor says that the wife actually rarely came home. After getting married to Mateen, the wife rarely came home to visit her parents
because Mateen would not let her. In fact, at one point, the father was on his deathbed, and she had to scrape together money to visit her father
before he died. Mateen did not apparently want her to go at all.
GRACE: To Caryn Stark, psychologist, joining me out of New York tonight. Caryn, thank you so much for being with us. This is beyond a lot of
people`s understanding, but -- including my own, that you could be forced to stand by while your husband massacres innocent people.
And I just don`t think the coercion defense is going to work if a federal grand jury hands down charges on her because she`s sitting -- if she knows
what`s going down, Caryn Stark, she`s sitting there on the sofa with a cell phone in her hand, watching TV, knowing that he is massacring innocent
Americans, if the allegations are true, Caryn.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: If they`re true, Nancy, then you have to consider the fact that this is a woman who is living in a situation,
perhaps, where he has full control over her. And it`s like dealing with brainwashing, where she is so frightened of him that she really has no
personality of her own, which happens in domestic abuse.
[20:20:08]You wind up feeling so bad about yourself that you just are looking for that person to give you any recognition. The more it
continues, the worse you feel. So you`re so hungry for love that he begins to rule...
GRACE: OK, you know what? OK...
(CROSSTALK)
STARK: I know you don`t like that.
GRACE: ... sticking around -- no, I don`t -- it`s not that I don`t like it, but yes, I don`t like it. But B, I`m not buying into that, that she`s
so afraid of reporting him -- that what? She lets all of these innocent people be massacred? And you know what? If she came from an arranged
marriage that she was unhappy with before, I don`t like that. But that does not -- it`s not -- it`s apples and oranges. They don`t -- that
doesn`t cancel out what her involvement is, Caryn Stark.
(CROSSTALK)
STARK: Nancy, it doesn`t cancel out and it doesn`t make her be innocent, but if you take a look at what was going on with her, I suspect that she
has no sense of her own power and her own self to be able to take charge.
GRACE: She knew how to dial a cell phone, Caryn Stark!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:26:16]GRACE: Breaking right now. As we go to air tonight, the FBI is still processing the scene of a massacre in an Orlando nightclub. Joining
me right now is a survivor. And I want his voice to be heard. With me is Jason Gonzalez. Jason, thank you for being with us.
JASON GONZALEZ, SURVIVOR: You`re welcome. Thank you.
GRACE: Jason, you were in the nightclub when the massacre occurred. What was the first evidence you heard? What was the first thing you saw or
heard that let you know something horrible was happening?
GONZALEZ: When we were in the main room, we heard a gunshot. We really didn`t know what it was, so we kind of paused. And then more gunshots went
off, and it was one after another, one after another. We got really scared and we just started running for our lives. It was just -- some people were
hitting the ground. Some people were running. That`s when we knew, you know, that something was terribly wrong.
GRACE: What did you see and what exactly did you hear?
GONZALEZ: I was with my friends and we were having a conversation. About 20 seconds into our conversation, we just hear a loud bang. I mean, it was
so loud. I`ve never heard anything like that in my life. And then it was just one after another, one after another. And everybody started hitting
the ground. People were running. I started running. I fell. My best friend got shot. It was just something that was just -- it was insane. It
was crazy.
GRACE: When you say your best friend got shot, were you there when your friend was shot?
GONZALEZ: Yes, I was standing right next to him. Once the gunshots started firing, we all started turning around to one of the exit doors to
start running. We both had fell down. I fell down because I tripped over somebody. And once I was able to get out and jump a fence and the patio, I
looked back and my friend wasn`t there, so I knew he was shot because he Facetimed me from the ground.
GRACE: Joining me is Jason Gonzalez, who survived the shooting. What did you see when you were trying to get out of there? When you looked around,
what could you see?
GONZALEZ: I just saw fear in everybody. Everybody was just either -- people just started hitting the ground, Nancy, and then some people just
started running. Some people started hiding. I started running, and I fell, and then people were running over me. I wasn`t able to get up right
away, and then when I was able to, I just ran into a doorway that led out to the patio. And by the Grace of God, I was able to jump over that fence.
GRACE: When you hear now that the federal government, the U.S. attorney, is taking or is planning to take Mateen`s wife to a federal grand jury, and
people are saying, But she`s cooperating, she was afraid of him -- what do you say to that?
GONZALEZ: You know what? I just don`t buy that. If she brung him up here and she was with him, she had time. She had -- she could have picked up a
phone. She could have called somebody. She could have told somebody that this guy was doing something horribly wrong. Innocent people lost their
lives. And it`s just horrible. It`s just horrible.
[20:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Breaking right now. A 2-year-old toddler boy attacked by a 7-foot alligator, dragged into an ornamental lagoon at Disney.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The call came in around 9:15 in the evening. A 2-year- old, visiting Disney World with his family from Nebraska, was playing at the edge of a lagoon when the unthinkable happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 2-year-old boy snatched and dragged away by an alligator.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It is overwhelming. A Nebraska family takes their kids to Disney, like everybody, and their little boy, a 2-year-old tot boy, snatched by an
alligator, dragging the toddler into the lagoon. The mother inconsolable. Right now, let`s go to the presser.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:35:00] JERRY DEMINGS, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF: At about 1:45 today, members of the Orange County Sheriff`s Office dive team located what is
believed to be the remains of the deceased, the 2-year-old, I will identify him in just a few moments.
At about 3:30 today, we recovered the remains of the 2-year-old from the water, and that body has now been turned over to the Orange County Medical
Examiner`s Office for an autopsy.
The family, I`m going to go ahead and identify. The parents are Matt and Melissa Graves from Elkhorn, Nebraska. Their 2-year-old is Lane Graves. I
will share with you that the child was found, his body was completely intact and so, at this time, we will go through the formality of making a
formal identification.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Jessica Schneider standing by, CNN correspondent. Jessica, what exactly happened?
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, you know, Nancy, this was supposed to be a fun night for this family. This was movie night at the
Grand Floridian, and the movie was actually playing near this lagoon for this family of four, a mother and a father, 2-year-old boy, the 4-year-old
was playing in the playpen.
The 2-year-old boy went down by the lagoon and waded into about a foot of water. Well, that`s when all of a sudden, witnesses say an alligator popped
up out of the water, grabbed the 2-year-old boy in his jaws and then took him.
The father then jumped in, tried to pry the jaws open of that alligator but it was too late. The alligator went into the lagoon, disappeared. And then
for 16 hours, there was this tense and horrific search, which of course ended with the body of that boy being found.
GRACE: Jessica Schneider, I have got to tell you, I have taken my two children, John David and Lucy to Disney to the Grand Floridian many times.
There we are, right there, at that lagoon, on that water.
There I am with Lucy looking out at the water. I had no idea how deep it was. I didn`t really know, but I was there, ready to jump in. I mean, I
would never -- there we are waiting our turn, the Grand Floridian, absolutely stunning.
We are all sitting there, waiting to go out on the paddle boat. We did go out on the paddle boat. We were right exactly where this happened and I
would never have dreamed, in my defense of the parent, I would never would have dreamed a gator was going to come up at the Grand Floridian.
SCHNEIDER: Yeah, these parents didn`t dream that either, Nancy. Like you said, countless families come here to Disney World every year, every month,
every day.
This is a lagoon. As you said, that`s at the Grand Floridian but it actually bumps up to the Magic Kingdom. So this thing is huge. There are
always people around it.
So here`s the thing. There were only a few signs around there and the signs simply say, "No Swimming." So, you know, this family presumably thought it
was safe to go near the water, may even wade in a little bit. But, apparently, there are alligators here.
And what they told us about the alligators is that they have a Disney staff on sight, poised and ready to kill alligators if they see any danger. But,
apparently, this alligator somehow slipped through that system that they have and then this happened.
GRACE: Well, I got to tell you something else. With me, there on the scene, Jessica Schneider, CNN correspondent. Jessica, during that same time when I
was down on the paddle boat with John David and Lucy, they were still 2 years old, by the way.
They were about to turn 3. They were still 2, the same age as this little boy. And when we went back to our hotel, Jessica, there was a golf course
nearby and we thought it was great fun to get on a golf cart and drive around on the golf course.
Jessica, we saw alligators out in the water at the golf course. When I saw that come up, I stopped. I looked and I`m like, OK, we are going back right
now, because I saw that it was a gator, not a big gator, from what I could tell, but they are everywhere.
You are saying that Disney was poised and ready for gators being in that water? They couldn`t have known there was a gator in that water, Jessica. I
just don`t believe it.
[20:40:00] SCHNEIDER: Well, here is the thing, Nancy. They say that in the 45 years that these waterways have been in existence, they have never had a
problem. And the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission, the manager was here and he was saying that that Commission leaves it up to Disney to move in
and pounce, if they detect alligators.
So, given the fact that it`s been 45 years and nothing has happened and given the fact they have this staff, apparently Disney thought it was
ready, but in this case, they weren`t.
GRACE: I just can`t take in what this family is going through right now. With me right now, special guest out of Orlando, Ramon Escobar, VP of CNN
Talent and recruitment who witnessed the aftermath of this gator attack.
Ramon, thank you for being with us. What did you see?
RAMON ESCOBAR, VP OF CNN TALENT RECRUITMENT & DEVELOPMENT, WITNESSED THE AFTERMATH OF GATOR ATTACK: Nancy, when I showed up at the Grand Floridian,
you know, first of all, this was a night where everyone was coming back from the park. You remember, you know, right around 9:00, 10 o clock,
everybody is leaving the different parks.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Oh, yeah, the parade just ends. It`s right, Ramon, doesn`t the parade ...
ESCOBAR: That`s right.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... just end around that time, the big parade?
ESCOBAR: And imagine the eerie feeling of looking out where all these emergency vehicles are and looking up and seeing fireworks displays from
across the lagoon of the parks that were just doing their displays. That`s what was going on, as people were coming back off the buses and into the
resort.
As you came into the resort, you could see people beginning to gather. They knew what was going on, not from Disney. Disney wasn`t saying anything to
them. None of the people at Disney were saying anything. It was all social media. That`s the age we live in. Everybody knew from local reporting that
this had happened.
There was police tape that had been placed in the beach area, that area that you have been in. That was cordoned off, but everyone was coming up to
the sidewalk and looking toward the beach and beginning to gather, and as 20 people gathered, then 30 people gathered. We got up to about 50 people,
the Disney folks came out and started asking people to please go back to their rooms, please don`t gather. We would ask them what happened. They
said we can`t talk about it.
And so as we were all moving, what happened? I started asking folks some questions, said you know what happened? Oh, it`s all over social media.
But hey, there`s the mom. And as I look, Nancy, there is a woman who is bent over, as if she is -- has a horrible stomach ache and the look on her
face, the tears, the pain and the anguish, she was just sitting there. And then she would stand-up, move a few feet and then collapse back over again.
It was gut-wrenching. She was inconsolable. She had her -- a couple family members with her. She was surrounded by a police officer who would follow
her everywhere she went because she was just sort of wandering and trying to grasp what had just happened.
She was trying to grasp and just keeling over. It was -- it was something that I don`t want to remember because it was -- it was that horrible a
sight.
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The toddler was wading near the shore of a man-made lake with his family nearby.
DEMINGS: So, the parents diligently tried to get the child but they were unsuccessful in their efforts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Apparently, the father actually trying to wrestle to attack the alligator to get the baby back. Absolutely unheard of and I, myself, I
showed you the photos of taking my own children, my beloved twins, at this same age to that very location. There we are. I thought nothing of it.
And as Ramon Escobar, our VP of CNN talent who happened to be down there at the time was telling us, it was around the time, it was the end of the
Disney parade. It`s a huge -- oh, I recognize that, that`s the Grand Floridian.
Lucy and John David and I walked all around, John David dressed as a pirate and Lucy dressed as Cinderella.
I think I`m going to cry, to tell you the truth just thinking about what this mother is going through. Families all over the world go here, and I
will go to my grave saying, Disney had no idea such a horrible thing could happen.
Ramon Escobar, you were just telling us the fireworks were going off. And I remember that. We were out on the water, going back to our hotel because we
weren`t staying at the Grand Floridian, and we were out on that dark water and the fireworks were going off, and I was saying, `Look twins. Look up in
the fireworks. I had no idea that there could be a gator under me.
ESCOBAR: Nancy, these are supposed to be magical memories. And instead, you know, it`s been a nightmare. Obviously, it`s been a nightmare in Orlando,
already. No town and no community deserves this kind of cruelness over the last four or five days.
But I will tell you, Nancy, that I do think, I mean, all of us who have been there. I have been there too many times to the Grand Floridian, it`s a
fantastic place. But, you know, the question now, the investigation after the press conference, the investigation is important because there were
signs -- you`ve seen the signs. The signs simply say, "No Swimming, please." That`s what the sign says. That`s all it says.
And so the question here is, is there now a discovered flaw? I don`t mean to -- I mean, obviously there is. In Disney, in a sense that if they knew
or if there was any sense that alligators could be in those lagoons -- remember they`re all connected by canals, both the ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Yeah.
[20:50:00]
ESCOBAR: ... Seven Seas Lagoon and the Bay Lake, all are connected by a system of canals. They`re man-made but they are not land-locked in a sense
that they`re fed by canals. And we all know those of us who live in South Florida spend a lot of time down here in Florida know that, you know, these
critters get into these canals and ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Oh, this is making me sick, Ramon ...
ESCOBAR: ... make their way up in.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... Escobar. Ramon, joining me right now, Jordan Munns, the owner of Wild Florida Airboats, gator expert. Jordan, I`m overwhelmed. I am
overwhelmed about the grief. What is that? OK. You know what?
JORDAN MUNNS, WILD FLORIDA AIRBOATS OWNER: Yeah. This -- I`ve got a guest with me here today.
GRACE: OK, what do you make of what happened? Does a gator realize it is human?
MUNNS: Yes. This situation is horrible. You know, being a father of three young girls right around that age, I can`t even imagine what grief the
parents are going through. And really, this is a situation that couldn`t have been stopped. It could happen anywhere at any time because we are
talking about wild animals that do move pretty freely wherever they please.
GRACE: Well, let me ask you this. Why did the gator react in this way?
MUNNS: Well, gators are very opportunistic feeders, being late in the evening or dark when this happened, its instincts kicked in. And it took
advantage of, unfortunately, an easy prey, a 2-year-old standing in just a foot of water.
The gator could have thought anything, that this toddler could have been a blue heron, another wading bird, a raccoon, you know, without it being --
having vicious ambition, it could have easily mistaken this toddler for anything that is normally in its life.
GRACE: What I`m trying to figure out, Jordan Munns, the owner of Wild Florida Airboats, when the gator -- does the gator differentiate between
humans, animals, birds, or does it just pick up a scent? This gator was 7 to 8 feet long. In one foot of water, it had to be running, right? It had
to be -- it couldn`t swim in one foot of water.
(CROSSTALK)
MUNNS: No. no. They can swim in very shallow water. They use their tail and can pretty much move through the water without making a ripple. So, this
could happen anywhere to anything, and no, they don`t differentiate, you know, humans from animals, but if they can see an easy meal and they can --
they will take advantage of that. And being at night, obviously the family, the toddler, did not see it coming, wherefore the gator could get right up
to him and, you know, and do damage.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, can`t they run? Can`t they run up to 35 miles an hour?
MUNNS: Absolutely. Gators have a very, very fast short burst of speed on land and in water. But in this case, I don`t -- I wouldn`t say that the
gator came in at any rate of speed because it was under darkness and could actually make its way to the toddler without leaving a wake or, you know,
providing any awareness that this was going to happen.
[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Breaking now, a tot boy`s body has been found after a deadly gator attack at no other place than America`s favorite place, Disney.
You know, no warning whatsoever. Justin Freiman on the story who has spent a long time working with Disney. There is no way I will ever believe that
Disney had any warning, Justin.
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: I would agree with you. Y0ou know, there are signs that say "No Swimming." And they do patrol those waters and
they do look out for alligators and they do remove them from those areas.
So it is not a known risk where it is happening often. Remember, this park opened in 1971 and this is the first major incident we`re hearing of.
That`s a pretty long track record.
GRACE: You`re right. You`re right about that. To Dr. ken Redcross, Board- Certified Internal Medicine and concierge doctor.
Dr. Redcross, thanks for being with us. The only consolation that I have here, the only, is that this had to be so sudden and so quick for the
child. I just ...
DR. KEN REDCROSS, BOARD-CERTIFIED INTERNAL MEDICINE: Yeah.
GRACE: ... It is just so hard for me to take in the terror that that child went through.
REDCROSS: You`re so right, Nancy. This is absolutely gut-wrenching to go on vacation with your child and you`re going back home and all of a sudden,
there is an empty spot there.
You know, I agree with you. I don`t think that poor little baby actually suffered long. It usually only takes about 20 seconds. The baby probably
passed because of drowning. And it was only about 20 seconds there. But I agree. Now it becomes important for a mental health for the family, for the
family to be able to come together and not blame themselves for this incident.
Our prayers to Orlando tonight. To this family and the other suffering families in Orlando. Let`s remember American hero, Orlando shooting victim,
Brenda Lee Marquez McCool, sacrificed her own life to save her son from a hail of bullets. A mother of 11, pushing her son out of harm`s way. Brenda
Lee Marquez McCool, American hero.
Thank you for being with us. Nancy Grace, signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night,
friend.
[21:00:00]
END
