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Nancy Grace
Man Tries to Kill Donald Trump; Police Say Married Asst. Principal Murders 7-Months-Pregnant Teacher; Victim`s Three-Year-Old Child Found in Parking Lot. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired June 21, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, chaos at a Donald Trump Vegas rally when a man allegedly grabs a cop`s gun, vowing he will assassinate
presidential hopeful Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: President Ronald Reagan, Robert F. Kennedy, Gerald Ford, Representative Gabrielle Giffords and Martin Luther King, Jr., just
some examples of fatal and near-fatal attacks against political figures. Now this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say he attempted to pull a police officer`s gun from its holster inside a Las Vegas theater where Trump was hosting a
campaign event.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Crazy. It`s crazy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say he went to a shooting range to learn how to fire a .9-millimeter handgun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just hours before the event.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video of Reagan`s assassination attempt, RFK`s and MLK`s from NBC, the California State Archives, Smithsonian channel.
And did a married assistant principal murder the pregnant Teacher of the Year he`s having an affair with? New details emerging tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has no emotion.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was in love with her killer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anybody that can commit that type of crime to a female that`s seven months pregnant with your child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Chaos at a Donald Trump Vegas rally when a man grabs a cop`s gun, vowing to assassinate presidential hopeful Donald Trump. Our
history in our country has seen one assassination after the next, one assassination attempt after the next. And it has not been stopped as of
tonight.
To Len Connell, investigative reporter. Let`s take it from the beginning - - Len joining us there in Vegas. What happened?
LEN CONNELL, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER (via telephone): Well, Michael Steven (ph) Sandford, a gentleman that had been living in the United States for 18
months -- he had a visa that had expired. He was living here illegally.
He showed up at the Donald Trump rally at the Treasure Island Casino, in the Mystere (ph) Theater, and attempted to grab the pistol of one of the
bodyguards, one of the metro officers, Officer Jacob (ph), and point it at Mr. Trump to shoot him.
Fortunately, there was another policeman and Secret Service people who very quickly apprehended him and took him into custody.
GRACE: You are seeing video right now of the man who grabs a police officer`s gun and tries to assassinate presidential hopeful Donald Trump.
Len Connell, I heard you say he`s an illegal alien? How did that happen?
CONNELL: That`s correct. He came here on a tourist visa. He lived in Surrey, England, and he had found a girlfriend there. A girl had visited
him. They had started a relationship. So he decided to go spend some time with her in Hoboken, New Jersey.
So he did get the tourist visa, but that visa only expired after a month or so. So he continued to live in the United States illegally, sometimes in
her home and at other times in a parked car. And no one had attempted to apprehend him. So he was generally a person just fell through the cracks.
GRACE: So let me understand this, Len Connell, investigative reporter out of Vegas. This guy is here on a visa. How long has that visa been
expired, Len?
CONNELL: It`s been actually around 14 months it`s been expired, over a year.
GRACE: So over a year, and nobody does anything?
CONNELL: Nope. Nothing at all. Nothing at all. And he was also not the kind of person to attract attention because he was a very quiet and
unassuming, shy, reclusive type of a person. So no one checked. No one cared.
GRACE: Joining me also, Chris Spargo, reporter, Dailymail.com. Chris, how close did he get to Trump?
CHRIS SPARGO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): It was incredibly close. He waited for his moment. He was sitting in the audience. He was watching
this, watching everyone around him. And then he saw his opportunity, and that`s when he approached this officer.
He was within probably about 30 or 40 feet of Trump, and he started a conversation. And he thought the holster was loose and that`s when he went
for the gun.
GRACE: So this is what I`m understanding, Chris Spargo, that he goes up to a police officer and he suggests he`s trying to get closer to Trump in
order to get his autograph. Is that right, Chris?
SPARGO: That is absolutely correct.
GRACE: So he has the wherewithal to lie, right?
SPARGO: That is right.
GRACE: Knowing -- you know, surveying the land, figuring out the lay of the land, understanding he can`t get any closer until he lies.
[20:05:04]You know, Liz, let`s see a timeline of what we know of this guy`s movements. We`re talking about a Brit, Michael Sandford, who is here
illegally, who goes to a Vegas rally. Eighteen months, he lives in Hoboken after arriving from the U.K.
At some point, we think about 14 months ago, his visa expires. He`s been living with a girlfriend and in his vehicle, sleeping in his car in San
Bernardino for about a month. Then he drives to a Vegas rally to assassinate presidential hopeful Donald Trump.
So how close, Chris Spargo, did you say that he got to Trump?
SPARGO: Really about 30 or 40 feet. It was not that far. That`s why he waited so long to sort of seize that moment when he could get as close as
possible.
GRACE: What I`m also trying to figure out, Spargo, is who else knew about the assassination attempt on Trump. Now, he`s got a girlfriend. But isn`t
it true, Chris, that his mother has been supporting him. She knows he`s here illegally, and she`s been sending him money periodically so he can
live here illegally?
SPARGO: That is true. She claims that she`s been trying to get him back and trying to work with the government, but they said that because he`s
over 18, they couldn`t do anything. But at the same time, they have been sending some money and supporting him.
GRACE: Joining me right now, special guest in addition to Chris Spargo and Len Connell, Jonathan Wackrow, former Secret Service with Obama, executive
director of RAIN (ph).
Jonathan, thank you for being with us. I mean, isn`t there protection? I know Trump is not the president yet. The election hasn`t happened. He`s
not even the Republican nominee yet. But long story short, he`s going to be. He`s going to be.
And this is not about politics. This is not about whether you like Trump, whether you don`t like Trump. Doesn`t he have Secret Service detail, and
this guy gets 30 feet from him?
JONATHAN WACKROW, FMR. SECRET SERVICE AGENT FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA: Absolutely. I mean, he does have a Secret Service detail. He has a very
comprehensive security apparatus that is surrounding him throughout the entire campaign.
What I think that you`re seeing here is actually -- you know, we`re talking about proximity of 30 feet, but what you have to look at the protective
methodology. The Secret Service methodology is concentric rings of protection. And...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, wait a minute, wait a minute! Jonathan -- Jonathan, I`m just a trial lawyer, OK?
WACKROW: Oh!
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Don`t talk over my head, OK? I know that much. I know that you`re doing that. I don`t know what you`re saying, but I know that you`re doing
that.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Can you break it down for me?
WACKROW: Absolutely. Absolutely. So let me -- let me take a step back. So Donald Trump has a ring of protection that surrounds him. The first
ring of protection is the Secret Service agents, the folks that we typically see around the protectee. The next ring out from that is -- in a
concentric ring, is uniformed police officers.
So this is where this suspect -- he engaged in a police officer on an outer ring. Yes, it was a close proximity. But understand this is also inside a
political rally, where he had already gone through metal detectors and had been deemed safe to be inside.
So he engaged this police officer. He started speaking to the police officer to try to work his way closer to the stage. And at that moment in
time when he thought that he had an edge on the police officer, he reached for his weapon.
GRACE: Now, isn`t it true, Chris Spargo, that this was not the -- a spur of the moment assassination attempt on Trump. This guy had been planning
this for quite some time, Chris.
SPARGO: That is absolutely correct. And he had plans to maybe try to get him if it didn`t work out this time.
GRACE: Now, what do we know, Len Connell, investigative reporter joining me there on the scene in Vegas? Isn`t it true that he had quite a drive
from San Bernardino to Vegas, that he had gone to target practice to prepare...
CONNELL: That`s correct.
GRACE: ... to assassinate presidential hopeful Donald Trump. What do we know about his planning, laying the foundation to kill Trump?
CONNELL: Well, what he had done was that he had gone to a gun school, a very popular one here in Las Vegas called Battlefield, Las Vegas. He had a
gentleman by the name of L.J. (ph) teach him how to fire a Glock, which would have been similar to the weapon a policeman might use. He had fired
off 20 rounds, done it successfully.
And then his plan was not to bring a gun, obviously, into the Treasure Island, knowing that he would have to pass through security, but his plan
was to grab an unlocked gun that he could grab out of a hand or out of a holster, get close enough to Donald Trump to shoot him. And he said he
would either kill Trump or someone else.
And if that had failed, he already had a ticket in his pocket, a plane ticket to go to Phoenix, Arizona, and attempt to shoot him the following
day.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Robin Ficker, defense attorney out of Maryland, David Bruno, defense attorney out of New York.
OK, Ficker, let`s hear your best defense.
ROBIN FICKER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Why do they have all these cops standing around in a crowded rally, where anyone can grab a holster, a gun on the
hip? Why don`t they have them inside the coat...
[20:10:12]GRACE: That`s your defense?
FICKER: ... where no one can grab them? I think that all this...
GRACE: Your defense is the cop was wrong because he had the gun on his hip, not...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK. That`s your defense.
FICKER: They need to change that practice, but all he did...
GRACE: You know what? I`m going to give you...
FICKER: ... was shoot off his mouth. There was no shooting. He was shooting off his mouth. It was a mere attempt to grab something that was
enticing. He would never...
GRACE: A gun?
FICKER: ... have been able to take a shot and actually hit Mr. Trump.
GRACE: Really? So how do you explain, Robin Ficker, the fact that he drives from San Bernardino all the way to Las Vegas, takes target practice
and buys a ticket to fly to Phoenix for Trump`s next rally in case he fails in Vegas? What about that?
FICKER: He wasn`t getting out of there if he failed. It`s very difficult to grab these weapons and then aim it and actually fire it and hit someone.
That was just...
GRACE: No, it`s not!
FICKER: ... a fool`s choice.
GRACE: Did you not see the other video I showed you as we came into our program tonight? You didn`t see Giffords, MLK, RFK, JFK, Ford, Reagan? It
is easy, and it does happen! What are you talking about?
FICKER: Those incidents were not in controlled rallies, where everyone had to go through metal detectors and where they have rings, concentric rings
of protection. There was no chance...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK, David Bruno, are you actually joining Ficker in the defense...
DAVID BRUNO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Not that defense.
GRACE: ... which, gentlemen, you know this is not a defense under the law. Impossibility. That`s not going to work.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: First of all, it was not impossible because it`s happened before, but that`s a whole `nother can of worms that Ficker has thrown out on the
table. So Bruno, what`s your defense here?
BRUNO: Psych.
GRACE: Be careful.
BRUNO: Psych. Let`s get this guy...
GRACE: Psych?
BRUNO: ... evaluated because, clearly, there has to be some issue. Something has to explain...
GRACE: Why? Why?
BRUNO: ... his actions and statements.
GRACE: Is that always your defense?
BRUNO: No.
GRACE: You know why it`s your defense? Because of what you`re seeing on the screen right now, Bruno, because you got nowhere to go and you got
nowhere to hide. This guy is caught red-handed at the scene trying to kill Trump. He says verbatim, If I can`t do it tonight, I`ll do it tomorrow
night. So all you can argue is psych.
BRUNO: Not true. Not true.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BOOS)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Thank you. Thank you, officers. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:16:38]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The story of a young man obsessed with killing Donald Trump.
TRUMP: Who is that guy? Is he a friend or foe? Get him out of here, please! Get him out. Get him out.
(BOOS)
TRUMP: Thank you. Thank you, officers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Trump took the stage, Sandford ran towards a metro officer, grabbed his gun holstered on the officer`s hips, and was
immediately arrested.
TRUMP: Thank you. Thank you, officers. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There you see the guy, a Brit who is here illegally, Michael Sandford, who vows if he couldn`t kill Trump that night, he`d do it the
next night. How did this happen?
Do you remember this with Reagan? Take a look. There you see Reagan coming along.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get down!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video of Ronald Reagan assassination attempt from NBC.
And what`s so ironic is that`s out on the street, where one of our most beloved presidents -- and all politics aside, Democrat, Republican,
libertarian, that`s our president. That is our president, whether you voted for him or not -- was someone trying to gun him down on the street.
And now all these years later, an attempt on the life of a presidential hopeful, Donald Trump. Now, amazingly, you will hear people say -- and I
was shocked when I heard it the first time -- that Trump has stirred up animosity and that, somehow, this is his fault.
I have never heard people blame a victim as they are doing right now, except in possibly rape cases. And this is not about do you like Trump,
are you going to vote for Trump, are you going to vote for Hillary. That`s not what this is about. People are actually blaming Trump for his
ideological theories. I don`t understand it!
And Matt Zarrell, another thing I don`t understand is how this guy was still in this country. If his mother can send him money from wherever she
is in Britain or Canada, are you telling me INS can`t find him?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, for whatever reason, he must have slipped through the cracks and the government didn`t
realize that his visa had already been expired. And then a month before, he was in California in his car, and then a day before, decided suddenly he
was going to drive to Vegas and kill Donald Trump.
GRACE: And you know, the other thing -- unleash the lawyers, Robin Ficker, Maryland, David Bruno, New York. You know, his mom was getting money to
him somehow, whether it was Western Union. We don`t know. I`m sure his car didn`t have an address. If she could find him, so could officials.
But another disturbing layer of this is that it was actually brought up in court that this guy go to a halfway house! OK, Bruno, you were whining you
didn`t get enough air time. Why should this guy go to a halfway house?
BRUNO: Well, I mean, if he`s got a mental problem, that`s why he`d go to a halfway house.
GRACE: What mental problem?
BRUNO: Or an addiction issue. But listen, if this is going to be...
[20:20:00]GRACE: What mental problem?
BRUNO: If this is going to go on an attempted murder charge, OK -- it`s not yet, but if it does, they have to prove that his intent was to kill.
And I would suggest...
GRACE: Yes, you said that.
BRUNO: ... his intent was to get on NANCY GRACE, to get on TV.
GRACE: OK.
BRUNO: He wanted the notoriety.
GRACE: Right.
BRUNO: And this is what the media is doing by airing things like this. It gives people an opportunity to be famous.
GRACE: Oh, put him up! OK, so now it`s my fault...
BRUNO: It`s his fault...
GRACE: OK, you know what?
BRUNO: ... but they have to prove the attempted murder.
GRACE: No offense, guys, OK, but let me go to someone with a little more sanity. Let me go to Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist joining me
out of New York. Bober, I don`t know what I`m going to do about Ficker and Bruno, but this guy does not have a mental illness. This was very well
thought out. Actually said, If I didn`t kill Trump tonight, I`m going to kill him tomorrow night. And they`re talking about putting this guy in a
halfway house?
DR. DANIEL BOBER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Nancy, I really have to disagree with you on this one. Even with John Hinckley, Jr., you know, that was
very planned out, too. He was delusional. He was obsessed with Jodie Foster.
But people with mental illness can still plan things out and they can be influenced by delusions. In this particular case, it was willful, it was
volitional, it was premeditated. It doesn`t seem like so far, there were any attempts to conceal the crime. But people can still plan in this
fashion...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait!
BOBER: ... and not know the difference...
GRACE: Put Bober up!
BOBER: ... between right and wrong.
GRACE: Bober, Bober, did you not hear the fact Chris Spargo or Len Connell said he didn`t bring a gun in because he knew he couldn`t get in if he
carried a gun? And his plan all along was to try to get a gun off a cop. So are you telling me that was not a plan to hide it?
BOBER: I`m telling you that he had a plan, and maybe his plan was to get as close as possible or as your other guest said...
GRACE: Oh, so you`re doing -- have you ever heard of the backstroke? Because you`re really good at it. Now you`re swimming backwards because he
did try to hide it.
BOBER: He tried to do it in a way where he would be most successful. So again, I think that indicates a level of planning.
GRACE: Wa-wait! You know what? You know what, Bober? No, he tried to hide it. Now, you may put perfume on the pig any way you want to, but he
tried to hide it.
You know, take a look at this attempt on the life of our president, Gerald Ford.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seconds later, the president, in a jovial mood, passed a young woman who was wearing a red dress and walked another two or three
feet. Then she thrust a hand through the crowd, a hand holding a loaded .45-caliber pistol. A Secret Service agent grabbed the gun, grabbed the
woman, as six other agents forced the president to double up for protection. Then they hustled him at a trot the final 100 yards through
the capitol doors to the governor`s office.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:27:02]GRACE: Did a married assistant principal murder the pregnant teacher of the year he`s having an affair with? New details emerging now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We now know she was shot and killed, dumped in Eberville (ph) parish.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was in love. She put him on a pedestal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say he appears to be unconcerned about the death of the woman he loved, the same woman they say was carrying his unborn
baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This assistant principal -- a doctor, by the way -- is now accused -- now suspected of murdering the pregnant Teacher of the Year.
Stunning details emerging tonight. Michelle Southern, assistant news director with Louisiana Network -- Michelle, thank you for being with us.
First, Michelle, I want you to hear what his wife tells me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KALA MARKS, SUSPECT`S WIFE: He`s a loving husband, a loving wife (ph). I just don`t see how he could do it. I`m really just at a loss for words.
GRACE: Did you have any idea that they were having an affair?
MARKS: I did not. I did not, not one clue.
GRACE: And today, as of today, do you believe that they were having an affair?
MARKS: Honestly, I really don`t know what to think...
GRACE: OK.
MARKS: ... or what to feel. I hope not, but I`m not sure.
GRACE: Did he come home that night, ma`am?
MARKS: Yes, he did.
GRACE: Do you remember what time he came home?
MARKS: It was about 12:15-ish. I was in the bed sleeping, and I woke up and I realized he wasn`t home. So I called him, and just so happened he
was coming in the neighborhood.
GRACE: Did he have on the same thing that he had on when he left?
MARKS: I really didn`t pay attention to when he left, and when he came home, I was in the bed sleeping. I was just worried that he was on his
motorcycle at night, and where was he at 12:00? I didn`t really pay attention.
GRACE: During the time he was gone, Ms. Marks, did he contact you, text you, call you from the game?
MARKS: No, he did not.
GRACE: Is that normal?
MARKS: Yes, sometimes, if he knows I`m in the bed sleeping.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Michelle Southern, assistant news director, joining us there on the scene -- Michelle, what more are we learning tonight?
MICHELLE SOUTHERN, LRN (via telephone): Well, we are learning more that, actually, Mr. Marks did go to a bar known as Twin Peaks, and he was there
to watch the NBA finals that were that night.
The game started at about 8:00 o`clock. And we`re just kind of getting a clearer picture of the timeline, essentially, with the game starting at
8:00 o`clock, and then what police are saying are the cell phone records of Mr. Marks and Lyntell Washington and when those cell phones were
together...
GRACE: Hold on! Michelle...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Let me back it up. Let`s talk about Twin Peaks sports bar. Michelle Southern, you seem to be taking it at his word that he was there.
Why?
SOUTHERN: Well, right, he said that he was going to watch the NBA finals that night at 8:00 o`clock, but the cell phone records indicated that he
was, in fact, not at the bar, according to the Baton Rouge police department...
[20:30:05] GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Michelle, the reality is that we don`t know. There`s no evidence whatsoever stating that he was at that bar,
Twin Peaks Bar, is that right, Michelle?
SOUTHERN: That is correct.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK.
SOUTHERN: There is no evidence indicating that that is what he actually did that night. And there, you know, is plenty of evidence indicating that he
was actually in separate areas in ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Hold, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. Just wait. Wait just a second, Michelle. I asked the wife, did he contact her, call her, text her at all,
and she said, no. But that that was not unusual.
Now what I`m finding out is that, Michelle, she tried to text him. She texted him several times that night. And he didn`t respond. What about
that, Michelle?
SOUTHERN: Yeah. Apparently, it was indicated that he actually left on his motorcycle and that the wife was worried about that because he wasn`t
responding to her that night. And I don`t know, I guess he took his bike. Twin Peaks is kind of a biker bar, but apparently we`re learning that they
did not communicate at all that night, and that she was worried about that.
[20:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Crime-victim-turned-crime-fighter Hailey Dean is back in "Murder in the Courthouse."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The unstoppable prosecutor digs in to track down a killer, but could she wind up the next victim? Find out in the third book
in Nancy`s best-selling series.
GRACE: Portions of proceeds go to Help Find Missing Children!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Preorder your copy now on Amazon, barnesandnoble.com and more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Death of Lyntell Washington and their unborn baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Washington`s body was found near Rosedale, just over one week after her 3-year-old was found near a bloody car prompting a frantic
missing person`s investigation.
L`JEAN MCKNEELY, BATON ROUGE POLICE SPOKESPERSON: The only two words that I did come up with is heinous and senseless.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What is the truth? This woman`s body is found in a ditch in Louisiana, shot in the head. Her 3-year-old little girl is wandering alone
and abandoned in a parking lot, the little girl covered in blood. The inside of the mom`s car covered in blood.
And tonight, we learn that the little girl states `Mr. Robbie` did this. `Mr. Robbie` left my mom in water. What is the truth? Was this teacher of
the year, this woman voted, Lyntell Washington, voted teacher of the year, now dead. Was she having a relationship with Robert Jovantie Marks, Dr.
Marks, the assistant principal in her school?
Now, the wife has insisted to me that`s absolutely false. But that`s not what he told police. Joining me right now, Lionel "Lon" Burns, the lead
attorney for Robert Marks. Also, with me Jerry Settle, attorney for Robert Marks.
So you got a fleet of lawyers. All right. Both of them having excellent reputations in their jurisdictions. So Mr. Burns, let`s start with you, the
lead attorney for Mr. Marks. Your client ...
(CROSSTALK)
LIONEL "LON" BURNS, ATTORNEY FOR SUSPECT, ROBERT MARKS: Good evening, Nancy.
GRACE: Good evening. Your client tells police that he was having an affair with the victim and that he met her that night at a Walmart. Why? Why would
he agree to meet her at a Walmart that night, the night that she coincidentally goes missing?
BURNS: Again, Nancy, my client, Dr. Robert Marks, asserted his right to remain silent. The words that you`re repeating to me are the words of the
Baton Rouge spokesperson, Corporal McKneely.
Again, my client has never made a formal statement to the Baton Rouge Police Department. So, what you`re asking me to answer, I cannot answer
because, again, Dr. Marks never made a statement to the police.
GRACE: Now, what I heard you say is statement, and then later you said a formal statement. In your mind, sir, is that different?
BURNS: I`m not telling you what`s in my mind, but ...
GRACE: Why?
(CROSSTALK)
BURNS: ... Louisiana law provides ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Why?
(CROSSTALK)
BURNS: ... that in order for a person ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Why won`t you tell me what you meant?
(CROSSTALK)
BURNS: ... to make a statement, they must waive their Miranda rights. They must waive their rights to have an attorney present. They never got that
far with Dr. Marks because he requested my presence.
GRACE: Sir. Mr. Burns, I know that Louisiana functions partially under the Napoleonic Code but they are still under the jurisdiction of the United
States Constitution, and there are many, many exceptions to having your Miranda rights.
Now, are you telling -- first of all, you say that you`re not going to tell me what`s in your mind. Why not? What do you have to hide?
JERRY SETTLE, ATTORNEY FOR ROBERT MARKS: Hello, Ms. Grace. I think that Mr. Burns was adequately asked the question which is whether or not our client
waived his Miranda rights. He did not. That`s the beginning and end of it. He didn`t make a statement.
GRACE: So you`re saying that ...
(CROSSTALK)
BURNS: And that`s the thing, Nancy, you have to accept the fact that in this country, you have the right to remain silent ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Accept it.
BURNS: ... and at the same time you are innocent until proven guilty. What`s the big problem with that?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I don`t have a problem with it.
[20:40:00] BURNS: Because he has a Ph.D., he is supposed to sit there and talk to the police because he is supposed to further sensationalize this
case and talk about an affair and say he`s the baby daddy? We`re not going to do that in this case.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: So there is an affair?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: So they did have an affair and he is the baby daddy, is that what you`re saying?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNS: You`re going to have to go and ask the Baton Rouge Police Department spokesperson for that information.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Guess what?
BURNS: I`m not worried about that.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Don`t have to.
BURNS: I`m worried about the innocent ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Don`t have to.
BURNS: ... and at this point he`s innocent until proven guilty.
GRACE: Because Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert, isn`t it true that texts reveal he is the father of that unborn baby girl, and the victim, the
teacher of the year, had called him on it, isn`t that true, Ben Levitan?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: That`s right, Nancy. We have the text messages between Marks and Washington that does reveal that he was not
aware that she was pregnant.
It is revealed in text messages, Nancy. Further, what we just learned a few minutes ago, that his wife was sending him text messages constantly through
the night. Every one of those text messages, Nancy, created a record that showed his location at that time regardless of the fact that he ignored
them.
GRACE: Let`s go back to his lawyers. Lionel "Lon" Burns out of New Orleans; Jerry Settle, also out of New Orleans. Back to you, Mr. Burns.
BURNS: Yes, Nancy.
GRACE: How do you explain those text messages?
BURNS: I don`t have to explain those text messages, Nancy. Receipt of text messages again does not prove innocence or guilt in a first-degree murder
case.
Remember, the State of Louisiana is going to seek to take Dr. Marks` life. I`m not worried about text messages. I`m worried about a 3-year-old witness
who will never be qualified to take the witness stand.
I`m worried about a circumstantial case that I need to exclude every -- well, the state needs to exclude every reasonable hypothesis of innocence
before a conviction takes place.
Remember, through the Baton Rouge Police Department`s spokesperson, there have been a lot of mumbling, fumbling and bumbling with this case. They`re
doing so much to lose this case at this point because they`ve discredited their own child witness who obviously does not know the difference between
a field and a lake. Remember ...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARKS: ... he`s a loving husband, a loving wife. I just don`t see how he could do it. I`m really just at a loss for words.
GRACE: Did you have any idea that they were having an affair?
MARKS: I did not. I did not, not one clue.
GRACE: And today, as of today, do you believe that they were having an affair?
MARKS: Honestly, I really don`t know what to think.
GRACE: OK.
MARKS: Or what to feel. I hope not. But I`m not sure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCKNEELY: He has no emotion.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was in love with her killer.
MCKNEELY: Anybody that can commit that type of crime to a female that`s 7 months pregnant with your child ...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Now, I want to go to Lionel "Lon" Burns and Jerry Settle, the attorneys for the suspect in this case, the assistant principal, Dr. Marks,
who is suspected in the murder of the teacher of the year, seven months pregnant, many people say with his baby.
Now, gentlemen, now, don`t get me wrong, all right, where are they? Can I see them? We`re not in court yet. All right? We`re not there yet.
I`m not the enemy. I`m just asking you questions that are going to be asked in court. OK? The prosecution`s going to have a field day with all this.
All right. Look around.
You know what? I remember when I first started arguing with lawyers on T.V., and it was my friend Johnnie Cochran, God rest -- oh, dear Lord, what
is that hair?
OK. I`m a little embarrassed. But that`s some court T.V. video. When I first started arguing with Johnnie, we had to assure each other every
night, it`s just T.V., we`re not in court, OK. It`s not - just save it for the courtroom.
So let me understand this. You`re not worried about the text messages, Mr. Burns. That doesn`t bother you.
(CROSSTALK)
BURNS: Absolutely not.
SETTLE: Absolutely not.
BURNS: Text messages do not prove murder. No. Why?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK.
BURNS: Why?
GRACE: All right.
BURNS: Because his wife texted him and he didn`t respond?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: No.
BURNS: That happens every day.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: No. Because ...
(CROSSTALK)
BURNS: ... he`s riding his motorcycle.
GRACE: ... because the murder victim texted him and said, are you trying to back out on your responsibility with our baby girl? Yeah, I`d be a little
bit worried about -- let me go to Dr. William Morrone, Renowned Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Toxicologist.
Dr. Morrone ...
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, RENOWNED PATHOLOGIST, MEDICAL EXAMINER AND TOXICOLOGIST: Yeah?
GRACE: The best thing that could happen for the defense right now is that they cannot prove, the state cannot prove this baby belonged to Dr. Marks,
OK? That`s the best thing.
Now, can they do it, can they not do it? The body is decomposed. It`s been out in a sugar cane field ditch in the heat of Louisiana and the rain. Help
me, Dr. Morrone.
MORRONE: OK. Here`s the truth. The baby is deep inside, and there`s very little decomposition and there`s a lot of DNA there. They are in deep
trouble. We are going to be able to do DNA testing and show who the father is. We`re going to be able to do that.
GRACE: Are you sure?
MORRONE: Absolutely guaranteed, 100 percent.
GRACE: But why? You know, it brings to mind the Scott Peterson case where baby Conner was inside Laci`s uterus and after all that time, they could
still make a DNA match because of the thick lining of the uterus, Dr. Morrone.
[20:50:00] MORRONE: The -- we will know who the father is because of the many layers of protection that are naturally evident in this seven-month
pregnant female. And the DNA degrades over months and years, but not days, not weeks. Now, the body decomposition is a different story. But you`ll be
able to get a DNA match and let`s just say, the cards are on the table.
GRACE: Let me understand something Stacey Newman, inside the teacher of the year`s car, the pregnant mom, a 3-year-old little girl, the baby`s found
wandering around in the parking lot, alone, covered in blood.
She says Dr. Robbie did it, of course, it is true what Burns and Settle are saying, she`s just 3 years old. But this is my question, Stacey, I`m trying
to determine movements and time line.
The blood in the car, Stacey, do we -- oh, that`s the parking lot right there. Do we know yet whether it`s blood spatters, Stacey, as if she were
shot in the car? What kind of blood is in the car?
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: They said it is blood spatter, and a new statement from the 3-year-old, she has apparently told police "`Mr.
Robbie` was trying to clean the blood."
GRACE: OK. Lionel "Lon" Burns, Jerry Settle. All right, Mr. Settle, I guess you think the 3-year-old is making that up, too?
SETTLE: Once again, as it was stated yesterday, I don`t know how the state of Louisiana is going to qualify a 3-year-old to testify. And as Mr. Burns
said earlier, she can`t distinguish between a field and a lake. So, we don`t know.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Look at your monitor, sir. Can I see -- show the photo of where that body of water is, beside where her mom`s body was found?
There is a body of water. I don`t know what it is, I don`t know if it`s a gully. It looks fairly substantial and that is where the body was found. I
understand what the little girl is saying, Mr. Burns.
BURNS: Because you`re taking a leap of faith. Because, also, you`re adding facts that are not ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Because I believe in my lying eyes instead of you.
(CROSSTALK)
BURNS: ... in evidence. You are adding facts that are not in evidence. And everything you all have said about paternity and whose the ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Sir, are you telling me that that body of water is not coming into evidence? That crime scene photo? Are you telling me, that photo is not
coming into evidence?
BURNS: You`re going to have a hard time qualifying a 3-year-old child witness. That`s what I`m telling you.
GRACE: Oh. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. I -- I hear somebody dodging the question. I`m asking you about that body of water.
BURNS: I`m not dodging the question.
(CROSSTALK)
SETTLE: That`s the state`s body of evidence. It is for them to get admitted or not admitted into evidence. It`s not our evidence. If the state wants to
admit that photo, then they have the right to do so.
[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Another issue revolving around the discovery of this teacher of the year`s body. She`s 7 months pregnant, allegedly by the assistant principal,
Dr. Marks.
Another issue is the little girl, the 3-year-old child, left wandering in a parking lot, alone, covered in blood saying `mommy is asleep.` She also
said, Michelle Southern, that `mommy was shaking.` What else did she say, and why was the girl left alone in a parking lot?
SOUTHERN: Well, that morning, the 3-year-old child was discovered, as you said, walking alone near the car. And obviously, she was questioned by
police, and police said, you know, `Mr. Robbie` was there, and she heard a `bang,` and then after hearing that bang, her mother was `shaking,` and
then as she has already been mentioning, `Mr. Robbie` was trying to clean the blood and that her mother was in the lake. And she was pretty much the
main witness that the police had at that time.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Robin Ficker, Maryland; David Bruno, New York.
OK, Bruno, what`s your defense for Mr. Marks -- Dr. Marks?
BRUNO: Let`s not forget that what we`re reading is from a probable cause statement. We haven`t seen any particular actual audio or anything of the
sort.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: So you`re saying it`s not true because it`s not audio tape?
BRUNO: We know -- when we talk about child interviews, especially like, a 3-year-old, the tape is always an issue and whether or not they`re open-
ended questions or leading questions. So, that is first with respect to the daughter.
But also, I agree, right now, this is a circumstantial case. Where`s the weapon?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK.
BRUNO: Do they have forensics? Do they have blood, fingerprints, things like that? It`s a CSI error and ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Ficker?
BRUNO: ... expect it.
GRACE: Ficker. Are you guys trying to tell me that circumstantial evidence is not as strong as direct evidence? That a jury can`t convict on
circumstantial evidence alone? You`re not trying to say that are you, Ficker?
FICKER: I`m trying to say that the fact -- even if it turns out to be his child, that`s a reason for him not to kill her. They were in love, they
intended to go away and live together. There is no blood evidence.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK. That -- that`s news to me.
FICKER: There is no fingerprints, and the 3-year-old testimony is inherently unreliable.
BRUNO: Yeah, Nancy, the substantial evidence can prove beyond reasonable doubt. I don`t dispute that, but juries want more nowadays. When we`re used
to the forensics, they want it, and where is it? Does the state have it?
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember, American hero Louisiana Sergeant Derrick Mingo, just 35, killed in the line of duty. Winnsboro Police,
Franklin Parish Sheriff. Remembered by his wife for a big heart and a big smile. Widow, Adrienne. Derrick Mingo, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace, signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp, Eastern. And
until then, good night, friend.
[21:00:00]
END
