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Nancy Grace
Podcast Subject Syed Gets New Trial: Crime Victim Turns Crime Fighter; Memphis Mom`s Four Children Found Dead. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired July 05, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:03] NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: Breaking news tonight. Will this man, smiling, waving in court, the man convicted in the brutal murder of a high
school girl, Hae Lee, actually walk free thanks to a female journalist who catapults to fame herself with a podcast called "Serial" that brings the
murder back to the forefront, reexploring evidence that convicted Syed.
But the victim`s family says the whole nightmare has now reopened painful wounds, quote, "No one can imagine." And they are now forced to relive the
gruesome murder of their daughter, a high school senior lacrosse and field hockey star, the time that she was murdered, her body left in a shallow
grave.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is "Serial," the most talked about podcast. The man at the heart of it, he was convicted of murder in the death of his then
ex-girlfriend Hae Min Lee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would rather someone say, I think you`re a jerk, you`re selfish. I wish you would just stay in there for the rest of the
life, except that I looked at your case and it looks, you know, like, a little off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Police hone if on a, quote, "wonderful and sweet" Memphis mom after her four children are found dead. We investigate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She stabbed four of her children to death, a 4-year- old, 3-year-old, 2-year-old and a 6-month-old. Gardner`s (ph) oldest, 7- year-old Dallen (ph), was able to get away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An outrageous act of evil that has shocked us to our core.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The desperate search for a 24-year-old woman who vanishes at her family`s private cabin in the mountains.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. This guy smiling, waving in court, a man actually convicted in the brutal murder of a high school girl, Hae Lee, actually is
walking free thanks to a female journalist who catapults to fame herself with a podcast called "Serial" that brings the murder back to the
forefront, looking at evidence that convicted Syed.
But the victim`s own family says this whole nightmare has reopened painful wounds that, quote, "no one can imagine." Now they are forced to relive
the gruesome murder of their daughter, a high school senior lacrosse and field hockey star at the time she was murdered, her body discovered
strangled dead in a shallow grave.
To Sarah Westwood, investigative reporter with "The Washington Examiner." Sarah Westwood, a jury believed the evidence. A jury believed that Adnan
Syed murdered his former girlfriend. They were convinced.
So explain to me why, with the help of a podcast called "Serial," he is now set to have a new trial, and it`s just a matter of time, probably hours,
before his defense attorneys insist he be let out of jail to walk scot- free!
Sarah, why did they convict him to start with?
SARAH WESTWOOD, "WASHINGTON EXAMINER": Well, the judge here is not saying that Adnan Syed is innocent. He`s saying that the evidence that was used
to convict him the first time was not adequate. And basically, what he`s saying...
GRACE: That`s what I`m asking you about, Sarah, if I could direct you back to that question. The question is, what was the evidence that convicted
Adnan Syed to start with? Why was a jury convinced that he murdered Hae Lee? Why did they believe that he strangled her dead and buried her body
in a shallow grave? What convinced them?
WESTWOOD: There`s two main pieces of evidence that convinced them. The first was data from cell phone towers from incoming calls that placed Adnan
Syed at a park in Baltimore burying Lee`s body at a certain opponent in time.
And the other was the testimony of his friend, Jay Wild (ph). And the two corroborated the other. For example, Wild`s testimony would not have been
reliable without the cell phone evidence to corroborate it.
And now a judge is saying that the defense attorney did not cross-examine a cell phone tower expert about why that cell phone tower data may not have
been reliable, and that...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I got it. The judge seem to believe that the problem is within the cell phone data. And what I`m trying to determine is Jay Wild is the
pivotal witness. Jay Wild was a friend of the defendant, Syed. Is that correct, Sarah?
WESTWOOD: Yes, that`s correct.
GRACE: And he says what to the jury? What was Jay Wild, who is Adnan Syed`s very best friend -- what did he tell the jury?
[20:05:04]WESTWOOD: Jay Wild told the jury that Syed admitted to killing Hae Lee and that then Syed asked for Jay Wild`s help in burying the body.
And so he made an agreement with police and with prosecutors that he would only face probation if he gave up the details of the disposal of Lee`s
body. But there have been inconsistencies...
GRACE: So he actually says, Sarah, that he helped bury the body? Is that what you said?
WESTWOOD: He did. He did tell that to juries (ph) and to police.
GRACE: Well, unleash the lawyers. Joining me out of Maryland, Robin Ficker, defense attorney, out of LA, Carissa Kranz, multi-state lawyer.
So to you, Robin Ficker, by speaking to police, he actually implicates himself in helping to hide a dead body. Why would his own best friend
implicate himself if it weren`t true, Ficker?
ROBIN FICKER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He`s not implicating himself. He got probation. He got no jail time. He`d say anything in order to walk away
from the jail. And that cell phone evidence was just a beginning technology in 2000. I didn`t have my first such case until 2010.
GRACE: You know, what I asked you was completely different from what you answered. Now, I do agree with you in the sense, Robin, the fact that he
took a deal in order to testify against Adnan Syed, you know, it makes you take another look at him.
Can I see Ficker, please?
But Carissa Kranz, the issue is Jay Wild, who testified at trial that his buddy, Adnan Syed, killed his ex-girlfriend, and asked him to help dispose
of the body -- he had no motive to kill. Isn`t there also, Carissa, a note written by Adnan Syed in which he discusses how he wants to kill Hae Lee?
CARISSA KRANZ, MULTI-STATE ATTORNEY: Nancy, he had every reason to lie and to fabricate because in order for him to...
GRACE: I asked you...
(CROSSTALK)
KRANZ: The note`s irrelevant. He had inconsistencies...
GRACE: The note`s irrelevant. OK.
KRANZ: ... in his statement...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... the note that was written by Adnan Syed. Sarah Westwood, investigative reporter with "The Washington Examiner," was there ever a
note written by Adnan Syed that was crucial in this case?
WESTWOOD: You know, I can`t speak specifically to that note, but it is correct that Jay Wild`s had inconsistencies in his retellings of the case.
He had inconsistencies with respect to Adnan Syed`s motive...
GRACE: We`re showing it right now, Sarah. Look at your screen.
Seema Iyer, former prosecutor, in court for Syed`s last hearing, columnist with "The Dean`s Report." Seema, could you explain to the viewers, because
I find this very, very important, Seema. And Seema, you first brought it to our attention. This note that was actually written by Adnan Syed about
his girlfriend -- she breaks up with him, she moves on to another guy, and he is furious. What did the note say, Seema?
SEEMA IYER, FORMER PROSECUTOR (via telephone): The note says, "I`m going to kill." However, Nancy, that`s in his handwriting, yet it doesn`t say
anything else. But it certainly is evidence of at least some type of motive, combined with witnesses...
GRACE: Well, hold on. Let me ask you...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... Seema Iyer.
IYER: ... that he was jealous.
GRACE: What was the note about? It says "I`m going to kill." Isn`t it true he mentioned his girlfriend in the note?
IYER: Yes.
GRACE: OK, unleash the lawyers, Robin Ficker and Carissa Kranz. To you, Carissa Kranz. You just told the viewers that you found this note written
by the defendant, who is now getting a new trial -- his lawyers are trying to get him out of jail overnight -- that this note is irrelevant, when in
fact, he is talking about, "I`m going to kill" in a note that he`s talking about his ex-girlfriend that broke up with him. How can that be
irrelevant?
KRANZ: Well, Nancy, we did know -- I didn`t know about that note. But seeing that note, I can still say...
GRACE: Then why did you say it was irrelevant?
KRANZ: Because I was speaking to his friend, Jay Wild, and whether or not he had motive to lie to cover up in order for him to get off. But that
note, even if he said, "I`m going to kill" -- people say that all the time. That doesn`t mean...
GRACE: I don`t.
KRANZ: ... they`re actually going to execute...
GRACE: Put her up, please! Put her up!
KRANZ: ... an act of violence.
GRACE: I don`t say I`m going to kill. I don`t say that.
KRANZ: There`s a huge difference between...
GRACE: I`ve never heard you say that you`re going to kill anybody.
You know, hold on. A large part of this lies in -- and I`m going to go to you, Seema Iyer, with "The Dean`s Report" -- with the credibility of his
friend, Jay Wild. Seema, what did Jay Wild tell the jury?
[20:10:02]IYER: Jay Wild told the jury that Adnan admitted to the crime and he helped bury the body. However, Nancy, Jay Wild has a ridiculous
criminal past. He had every motive to lie. The prosecutor basically colluded with him to get him to testify. And everybody welcomes Jay Wild
coming back to court for the next trial because he`s going to be torn apart. The guy is the bottom of the barrel!
GRACE: Well, you know what? Seema Iyer, who do you think that Adnan Syed is going to hang around with, nuns and priests and virgins? No! He`s not!
IYER: Actually, Nancy...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Let me finish, please!
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I`m hearing something in my ear, Liz. Could you please fix that? Water seeks its own level. Birds of a feather flock together. Lay down
with a dog, wake up with a flea. I`m sure your mother used those on you. My point is this is who Adnan Syed is hanging around with. So before you
crucify the state`s witness, Jay Wild, look at who he`s hanging around with, Adnan Syed.
Ben Levitan, can you please shed some light on the cell phone communications? Because incoming calls placed him at the park where the
body -- near the park where the body was found. What do you make of it?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT (via telephone): Nancy, I was given all the evidence in this case. There was no analysis done whatsoever.
What the jury was sold -- people don`t know a lot about how cell phones work, Nancy. What the jury was sold was that if this cell phone made a
phone call using this specific cell tower, the phone was in the park. That`s incorrect.
And what I`m telling you is people were sold bad evidence by a bad witness. I see this in court every day, Nancy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just sometimes wish, like, they could, like, look into my brain and see how I really felt about her. And no matter what else
someone would say, they would see, Man, this guy had no ill will towards here. Whatever the motivation is to kill someone, I had absolutely -- it
didn`t exist in me, you know what I mean?
No one can ever say why. People can say why -- Oh, maybe he was mad (INAUDIBLE) no one can come with any type of truth of anecdote or anything
to ever say that I was ever mad at her, that I was ever angry with her, that I ever threatened her. You know, that`s the only I can really hold
onto.
That is like my only firm handhold in this whole thing is that no one has ever been able to prove it. No one ever has been able to provide any shred
of evidence that I had anything but friendship toward her, like, love and respect for her.
That`s at the end of the day, man, the only thing I can ever say, man. I had no reason to kill her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s from podcast "Serial" produced by WBEZ Chicago.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:16:58]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Adnan Syed has been in prison for 16 years. He`s in Baltimore court now, hoping to win a retrial for the murder of his
ex-girlfriend, Hae Min Lee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would love to hear someone say, I don`t think that you did it because I looked at the case and it looks kind of flimsy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The "Serial" podcast of Syed`s case went viral and helped spark the hearing about evidence that was and wasn`t produced at his
murder trial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, a man convicted in the brutal murder of his former girlfriend, Hae Lee, is set to walk free, this after a female journalist
launches to fame, exploring the case under a podcast called "Serial."
And isn`t it true, Michael Christian, that the woman who did the podcast exploring this murder of this young girl never believed -- in the end, she
believed he was guilty.
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That has been reported, Nancy. She did report also that she was shocked when she heard this judge`s
decision. She thought would it never happen.
GRACE: Well, it happened. It happened, all right. And tonight, Hae Lee`s family is suffering. Her mother and father learn that her convicted killer
is getting a new trial and is set to make bond until then? Their daughter was strangled dead, a high school field hockey and track star, her body
left in a shallow grave. And tonight, they learn that largely because of a podcast, this man is walking free.
Take a listen to podcast "Serial."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I definitely understand that someone could look at this and say, Oh, man, you know, he must be lying. It`s so coincidental that he
doesn`t remember what he did this particular time. And I mean, I completely understand that. And I get that. That`s -- you know, like I
said, that`s the -- you know, the biggest -- the hardest thing I`ve dealt with for these past 15 years is that I don`t -- there`s nothing tangible I
can do to remember that day. The truth is, there`s nothing I can do, you know, to make me remember.
You know, I`ve pored through the transcripts. I`ve looked through the telephone records. You know, I mean, this is -- what else can I do?
There`s nothing I can do so it`s -- perhaps I`ll never be able to explain it. And it is what it is. If someone believes me or not, you know, I have
no control over it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It`s funny how you lose your memory, you entire memory of the day your girlfriend is murdered. That`s from podcast "Serial" from WBEZ in
Chicago.
The news that this killer, this convicted killer is set to walk free has stunned the legal community, as well as this girl`s family.
Back to you, Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert. Are you telling me, Ben, that outgoing calls can place you at a certain location, but pings
from an incoming call cannot? Because that`s what the defense is arguing.
[20:20:09]LEVITAN: Nancy, this is just completely ridiculous, what people are doing. They`ve all got, like, myths about how cell phones work and
what the records mean. And everything has been completely misinterpreted. Right now, I would just take the cell phone evidence and throw it out. It
just was -- you know, it was bad evidence...
GRACE: OK, I`m not getting your answer, Ben. Ben, granted, I`m a little distraught about this case...
LEVITAN: I know.
GRACE: ... but I`m not getting an answer from you. And I want an answer. Tell me this. When a cell phone makes an outgoing phone call, the ping
attached to that call can be relied upon. Is that correct?
LEVITAN: Yes, it is.
GRACE: OK. Now, it`s my understanding from everything that you yourself, Ben Levitan, have taught me, that even when you have your cell phone on and
you`re not even making a call, if it`s on, it`s pinging off cell phone towers. Is that correct?
LEVITAN: Yes, it is, Nancy.
GRACE: So when Adnan Syed, who a jury convicted of murdering his girlfriend after she breaks up with him -- when he is getting incoming
phone calls, shouldn`t there be pings related to that?
LEVITAN: Yes, there should. Nancy, there are things called call detail records. Every time a phone is used, whether the call goes through or not,
records are kept. Those records were not...
GRACE: What is the problem? Then what is the problem here? Why are they saying that his phone cannot be pinged to a certain location when he`s
getting incoming phone calls?
LEVITAN: Nancy, they`re wrong about that. They`re wrong about a lot of the cell phone evidence in this case. I cannot say that -- I mean, the
evidence puts that phone in the area of Leakin Park. I don`t know how many times I say that. If the cell tower, Nancy, covers one square mile, that`s
the same as 484 NFL football fields.
And I as an expert can`t tell you where within that area the phone was, but I can tell you Leakin Park was included in that area, and that`s what
should have been said in trial, Nancy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:26:31]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Something doesn`t make sense here in this case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was just thinking the other day. I said, I`m pretty sure she probably has people telling her, like, Look, you know -- you know
-- you know, this case -- he`s probably guilty. You`re going crazy trying to find out if he`s innocent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: How has this happened? A jury convicts a guy in the murder of this young girl, Hae Lee. They had been sweethearts, lovers. She breaks up.
She finds a new guy. He is consumed with jealousy.
His then best friend, Jay Wild, testifies that the defendant, the ex- boyfriend, Adnan Syed, calls him, confesses he has killed the ex, Hae Lee, and wants his help to hide the body.
He then goes to police. He tells them. They find the body where he says it`s been hidden, and Adnan Syed is convicted. Jay Wild`s testimony, cell
phone records, and even a note that Syed wrote about killing his girlfriend came into evidence.
To Dr. Michelle DuPre, forensic pathologist joining us. Dr. DuPre, the body revealed that she had been strangled. What else do we know?
DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, we know that we can tell whether she was strangled manually with someone`s hands or whether a
ligature was used. We can also tell approximately the time that she was strangled. In other words, from the decomposition of the body, how long
ago that had happened. So we can tell those kinds of things, depending on the environment she was found in.
GRACE: I want you to take a listen to the podcast that brought this case back to the forefront. Even the woman who conducted the podcast says she
thinks he`s guilty and is so surprised a motion for a new trial has been granted. Listen. This is from "Serial" by WBEZ Chicago. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To be honest with you, I kind of -- I feel like I want to shoot myself if I hear someone else say, I don`t think you did it
because you`re a nice guy. (INAUDIBLE) you wouldn`t know that. But I`ve heard people say that to me over the years. It just drives me crazy.
I would love someone to hear -- I would love to hear someone say, I don`t think that you did it because I looked at the case and it looks kind of
flimsy. I would rather someone say, Adnan, I think you`re a jerk, you`re selfish, you know, you`re a crazy SOB. You would just stay in their the
rest of your life except that I looked at your case, and it looks, you know, like, a little off, you know, like something`s not right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:30:00] GRACE: Crime victim turned crime fighter, Hailey Dean, is back in "Murder in the Courthouse."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The unstoppable prosecutor digs in to track down a killer, but could she wind up the next victim? Find out in the third book
in Nancy`s best selling series.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Portions of proceeds go to Help Find Missing Children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pre order your copy now on Amazon, barnesandnoble.com and more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Police honed in on a "wonderful and sweet Memphis mom" after her four children are found dead. We investigate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four children under the age of 5, stabbed to death. The mother allegedly began attacking the children with a knife while inside of
their apartment on this well-manicured golf course.
GRACE: It`s almost too horrific to even take in. These children found dead. Four children stabbed dead. Why? Police honing in on none other than mommy.
She has been "quiet, sweet, wonderful," no one can believe it. Take a listen. What do we learn from this police scanner information?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 173, do we have any other units responding to this location?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 124, 137. Let`s start that way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to the suspect`s son, the suspect is still inside with the 2-year-old -- units that`s making the scene to pull away
from the scene until it`s safe.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop by the front office and advise personnel to come around to the scene for an extra key to entrance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You all go ahead and make entry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead and have medical (ph)...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ...mother will be in the squad car waiting on G.I.B. to make the scene.
[20:35:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were a number of people outside. And the investigation -- the investigation will determine exactly who saw what
and whether or not there are any other individuals inside that apartment. Our investigation would look at every potential aspect to try to determine
all that we can about what occurred and one of the most difficult questions always in an investigation is why it occurred. And of course, we`ll attempt
to answer that as well.
GRACE: Why did it occur? And what did occur? Tonight, we investigate why are four children found dead straight out to Kayleigh Skinner with the
commercial appeal. Kayleigh, thank you for being with us. Let`s go back to the moment that the children were discovered dead. What was found on the
scene when cops got there?
KAYLEIGH SKINNER, REPORTER, THE COMMERCIAL APPEAL: Hey, Nancy. What we know right now is that on Friday, deputies from the sheriff`s department were
called to this apartment where they found four dead children. The youngest child, 5-month-old, Davey (ph) was found in her baby carrier.
Her sister, 3-year-old Seo (ph) was on the floor next to her. In another room they found 2-year-old Shabby (ph) on a mattress with her brother, 4
year-old Talent (ph) on the floor. Each of the children apparently had severe lacerations to the throat.
GRACE: Severe lacerations to the throat. Let me understand, Kayleigh Skinner with the Commercial Appeal, you mean all of them have the same type
injuries?
SKINNER: Yes. What it seems like, when deputies arrived, they found the mother, Gardner, she also had cuts on her wrist and throat and they found
what appeared to be a bloody butcher knife in the home, so it`s believed that she used that knife to cut the throats of her four children.
GRACE: But I don`t understand why? Matt Zarrell isn`t it true there was a no history whatsoever of mental illness, what more do we know about this,
Matt?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, we know that there was actually a 7-year-old child, another child who survived who witnesses say came out of
the apartment screaming for help, yelling that his mother had stabbed his sister.
GRACE: Everyone, you are seeing shots of a lovely apartment complex -- luxury apartments turned murder scene. Four children found dead. To Dr.
Tiffany Sanders, Psychologist is joining me on Chicago. Doctor, there is nothing in the record to suggest that this woman had any mental illness at
all, so why are cops looking at her?
TIFFANY SANDERS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I find that very difficult to believe. A woman just doesn`t snap automatically without having had some history.
What she may not have done was sought out any treatment before. But I`m concerned does she have postpartum psychosis with homicidal and/or suicidal
tendencies? This wasn`t just a rare occurrence. It could have chime on months ago and just peaked with all the stressors that she was facing. She
had I think five children. Where was the support for this young lady?
GRACE: You know I appreciate that, Dr. Sanders but really you`re asking me, where is the support for her? The children are dead. She`s going to get to
have treatment if she needs it. But the children are dead. So, my concern right now is not necessarily treatment for her, but to find out why four
lives were taken. Why four children were slaughtered.
Alicia Lawyers; Robin Ficker, Maryland; Carissa Kranz, Multistate Lawyer. Robin, I mean if we could just take off our respective hats right now and
look at the evidence. To slaughter four children, one of them in a baby carrier, that required enough time to form premeditation, which you know
can be formed in an instant, in the flicker of an eye.
To come talking to me about her getting treatment, I`m all for treatment, but what I want to find out is what happened. I`m more concerned about the
four children, Robin.
FICKER: Well, if she killed them, she had to have some motive. That`s negated, because no woman that undergoes the pain of bearing four children
and then raising them, changing them is going to kill those children unless she has a mental deficiency -- a severe mental defect.
[20:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:45:00] GRACE: The desperate search for a 24-year-old woman vanishing and her family`s private cabin in the Adirondacks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say the 24-year-old was last seen at her family`s camp on Hernandez Road, in the town of Wells. She was reported
missing by her father after he got to the camp and found her car and belongings but no Rachael.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The most awful thing in the world. We just, besides wanting her back alive, we want her back.
GRACE: What happened to 24-year-old Rachael as a mystery intensifies, the family becoming desperate. Listen to family and friends.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like her to come home as soon as possible. We miss and love her so much. I would like to say, if you know where Rachael
is or have any idea what might have happened, please contact somebody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel completely helpless here. I don`t know how to fix this. I think there`s a lot of people here that just have seen the case and
wanted to come up and lend their support. You know, the media has been doing a great job of getting it out there and people are talking.
[20:50:00] GRACE: Tonight we join in the search for her. Straight out to Bert Baron, Morning Show host WCTC. Bert, take it from the top. What
happened?
BERT BARON, MORNING SHOW HOST WCTC: Well, this woman left her family home on June 22nd. She was going to a camp ground where they own a camp site.
This is something she had done so many times in the past on her own without any incident. So when she left on June 22nd and hadn`t been heard from, she
just sent out one text later that night, a good night text to her mom and that was it.
It was almost like she vanished into thin air. And these ones are particularly troubling to me when it is someone that has no real history of
a problem with someone and no real enemies, where she just vanished this is really troubling to me, Nancy. And this has all the makings of an abduction
and this is really scary.
GRACE: It has all the makings of an abduction you say, but why do you say that? Why do you believe this is an abduction?
BARON: Well, the camp ground where her car was found with the door open, the keys in the engine, the engine running until it ran out of gas. Her
cell phone, her purse still inside the car, it`s almost like she just vanished into thin air. Now, she apparently had a reputation for cranking
up the car radio with the door open as she walk around the camp ground and she might have done that again. But for her to not to return to the car is
really, really unusual. Was she attacked by an animal? Was she abducted? There`s a lot of unanswered questions about this whole case.
GRACE: Well, if she were attacked by an animal, I would think Bert that there would be some type of indication that that had occurred. So, you`re
telling me that her cell phone and her purse still in the car. Other than those two items being in the car, what else, if anything, was unusual about
Rachael`s car?
BARON: Just the fact that the door was open. The engine was on. The car had run out of gas. And there it was and it just ran until it ran out of gas.
But for her to vanish like this Nancy is very, very troubling.
GRACE: Now, Matt Zarrell, is my understanding that she goes to the cabin. The family has been there a million times before. She gets as far as the
cabin. Her car is there, cell phone, purse. The car is still running. It finally runs out of gas. What more do we know about the car itself? And the
reason I ask, Matt is because I think that is the last place that Rachael was. I don`t think she ever made it inside the cabin.
ZARRELL: Well, one thing that is interesting is that a witness who lives down the road did not remember any car driving in or out other than her
car. So if there was an abduction that took place, the car had to go a different route to go to the camp ground and I could tell you that there`s
only one way to get to this camp site and it`s through that narrow dirt road past this neighbor`s house.
GRACE: Interesting. What do we know about the neighbor, Matt Zarrell?
ZARRELL: Well, we just know that he lives down the street. He did not remember any car driving in or out other than the car that police believe
was driven by Rachael. And the police when they examine the scene, they found no signs of struggle at the camp site and nothing to indicate that
anyone other than Rachael had been on the property where she was staying in a camper.
GRACE: Okay. When you don`t know how to go forward, you go backwards. Let`s take look at what we know leading up to that moment. Matt Zarrell, we know
she wasn`t pregnant. We know that a boyfriend, or an ex, or a fiance, was not with her. What more do we know? That`s where investigations start when
a woman goes missing. What else do we know?
ZARRELL: Well, we know that she was extremely familiar with this area that she had been going up there her entire life. That the family had had that
place for a very long time, it`s about 50 miles from the home. So she had to have driven about an hour up to this camp site and that she knew that
she did not get cell phone reception up at the camp site and that explains why she pulled over on a bridge short of the camp site and actually texted
her mother good night. And that was the last time anyone had heard from her.
GRACE: So, Bert, does that make sense that she would text her mother good night before she gets into the cabin?
BARON: It does. It goes to show how familiar she was with the area as well and knowing that there was no cell service available to stop short where
she still had self-service just to be able to text good night to her mom. It is incredible. And who would have thought that that would be the last
communication that until now anyone would have with her. So, just the fact that she would stop short of a camp site and send this text tells me she
had a very good feel for what the lay of the land was probably...
GRACE: Wow.
BARON: ...knows this area better than a lot of people.
GRACE: OK. Everyone believes, including law enforcement, that this reeks of foul play. Tonight, the family desperate to bring Rachael Mattice home.
There you see the tip line 518-548-3113. Listen to what family says.
[20:55:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The most awful thing in the world. We just -- besides wanting her back alive, we want her back. They`re doing their
best to find her. I know that tragedy brings people together but this has really brought us together. It shows how many Rachael was loved. This vigil
is to keep family, keep them up and positive. We`re praying. We don`t pray. We`re not the praying type but we`re doing our best.
GRACE: There you see an aunt and other relatives of Rachael`s. Take a look at Rachael Mattice. She`s 24 years old. Let`s see her in full plays list
5`3", around 120 pounds, light brown hair, blue eyes. She was heading up to her family camp ground. It was just 55 miles from home.
The interesting part is that her car is found there at the camp ground. Her purse and her phone inside. What happened to Rachael Mattice?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A young life that suddenly was nowhere to be seen. Rachael was last seen around 9:15 to 9:30 pm. Her camping car door
were found wide open with her purse and phone inside. Fliers are hanged throughout Hamilton County with hopes of them bringing her back.
GRACE: What happened to Rachael Mattice? Tonight her family is begging for your help. This girl has never run away. She has never gone missing before.
She goes up to her family`s place camp grounds in the Adirondacks. She is never seen again. Foul play strongly suspected. She is missing from her
family`s cabin. She even calls her mom, gets in touch with her and says she made it.
Look at this beautiful scenery as it turned into a crime scene? The tip line is 518-548-3113, a 24-year-old woman missing from her family`s private
cabin. Alicia Lawyers; Robin Ficker, Maryland; Karissa Kranz, LA Robin Ficker if whoever has her and her family believes that someone does have
her, where to call police, where to get in touch with a lawyer, do you think a deal could be brokered to return her if she`s still alive?
FICKER: I would certainly make such a deal. But I can`t believe that an attractive young woman would go up to meditate repeatedly in a cabin by
herself. I think she had been meeting someone over a period of time.
GRACE: Robin, don`t. Please. No sensational comments about this girl. There is no indication whatsoever she is meeting anyone. Bert Baron, WCTC, is
there any indication whatsoever that this was some type of a romantic trip at all?
BARON: At all zero, Nancy. Yes, I don`t see this being sort of a hostage situation at all. Oh, look there`s a lot of unanswered questions here and
my heart breaks for the entire family who we just saw from there. I cannot imagine the anguish and just the uncertainty that they`re going through.
They want her back home -- they want her back home alive. But the feelings that they`re going through right now I would not wish that on any parent
when a child goes missing. It`s just awful.
GRACE: You know, to Dr. Tiffany Sanders, Psychologist. Why is it, Dr. Tiffany, that when a woman goes missing, some people always believe that
somehow, some way, it`s related to some type of an affair? That somehow, the victim is responsible for what happens to them? Why is that?
SANDERS: It`s -- it baffles me that we blame the victim. It baffles me that we think that she has some sort of part in her disappearance. Obviously,
you know, her car door is open. The car is running, her cell phone, her purse is there. Her family is there. Why would a young lady give -- cause
so much distress upon her family...
GRACE: Right. Hold on, Dr. Tiffany. I`m just learning I`m being joined by Marc Klaas, founder of Klaas Kids. This is his specialty. Marc, thank you
for joining us. Please weigh in.
MARC KLAAS, FOUNDER OF KLAAS FOUNDATION: Well, thank you, Nancy. It`s always a pleasure. Given that there is no sign of an animal attack. There
is no sign of foul play. No vehicles were seen coming in or out of that location, I think it is likely that she had some kind of a terrible
accident. She either fell into a raging river and was taken downstream or perhaps even an abandoned mine shaft or a well or something along those
lines. That seems as likely as any of the other stuff that`s been put out there so far.
GRACE: So what do they do now, Marc?
KLAAS: Well, they have to obviously search. They need to get professional teams out there. They need to get dogs out there. They need canvas the
area...
GRACE: Right.
KLAAS: ...from point zero moving out until they are able to solve this case.
GRACE: Tip line 518-548-3113. Let`s remember American Hero Army Sergeant Eric Slebodnik, 21, Greenville Township, Pennsylvania Purple Heart,
remembered as a true gentleman. Loved teaching Sunday school, travelling, a sports complex named in his honor. Parents to Joseph and Cynthia, brother
Gregory, fiancee Brooke. Eric Slebodnik, American Hero. Thanks to our guests but especially for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off. I`ll see
you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
