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Nancy Grace
Baton Rouge Police Shooting Caught on Tape. Aired 8-8:30p ET
Aired July 06, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, graphic cell phone video captures Baton Rouge police tasering, then gunning down a man at close
range in front of a local convenience store. But was the man armed?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A man shot dead by police has sparked outrage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officers say they got a call that man was outside the store carrying a gun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) he`s on the corner, gun in his pocket.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A deadly encounter, shot several times at point-blank range.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots fired! Shots fired!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Graphic cell phone video captures Baton Rouge police tasering, then gunning down a man at close range. It all unfolds in front
of a local mini-mart, a convenience store. But was the man armed?
Warning, the video you`re about to see is graphic and very disturbing to watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground! Get on the ground! Get on the ground!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gun, gun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, (EXPLETIVE DELETED)!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They shot him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my goodness.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, at the police department, joining me right now, CNN correspondent Nick Valencia. Nick, thank you for
being with us. Nick, how did this whole thing unfold? What happened? Why were the cops called there to start with?
NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alton Sterling, as we understand it, was selling bootleg CDs outside of that Triple-S convenience store just
after midnight. An anonymous 911 call came in on Tuesday morning that said that he was pointing a gun, that he had a gun, that he was pointing a gun
at somebody. That`s when police officers responded.
And we only have that one perspective, that cell phone video that was shot by a bystander in that parking lot, that shows within a matter of seconds,
police tackling Alton Sterling to the ground. At one point, someone, presumably one of those police officers, says that Sterling has a gun, and
then we all hear what happens next. He`s shot multiple times. He has wounds in his chest and his back, Nancy.
GRACE: Do you know, Nick, as of right now, how many wounds there are because that would tell me a lot.
VALENCIA: We`re told at least six gunshots were fired. We don`t know, between the two officers, who fired or if they both fired. We know very
little about their background. As is the case in these types of police shootings, we know a lot or more than the person that was shot than we do
about the officers involved. Howie Lake (ph), a three-year veteran of the force. The other officer is Blaine Salimone (ph), a four-year veteran of
the force. We don`t know who fired or what led them to firing their weapons, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, I`ve also heard, Nick Valencia, that the shots were all fired by one police officer. What do you know about that?
VALENCIA: We don`t. I can`t tell you what I know about it because we`ve been given pretty much the stiff-arm by the Baton Rouge Police Department.
We`ve offered -- or asked, I should say, for Freedom of Information Act related to the criminal history -- or the background, I should say, of
these police officers.
But they`ve handed over all of these documents to the feds. The Department of Justice has taken over this investigation, along with the U.S.
attorney`s office and the Louisiana State Police Department. They are being very tight-lipped about the backgrounds of these officers or what
happened.
GRACE: Nick, there`s one thing that I find very telling, and that is that the people that were taking that cell phone video, which immediately went
viral, say, Why did they shoot him? Why did they shoot him? Was there a gun found on him?
VALENCIA: That is an excellent question and a great point. The initial call, as I said, was that he had a weapon and he was pointing it at
somebody. After he was shot dead by police, they did remove a handgun from the pockets of Alton Sterling. So he did have a gun on him.
We`re told by the convenience store owner that the reason that Alton Sterling was carrying that gun was because in recent weeks, a friend of his
had been mugged, so he was keeping it for protection. But he shouldn`t have had that gun to begin with, Nancy. He has a criminal history, is a
felon, should not have had possession of a handgun. The family says that doesn`t matter. They say that this is plain and simple police excessive
force.
GRACE: Well, Nick Valencia, joining me there on the scene at the Baton Rouge Police Department, speaking of what the family has to say on this
matter, their lawyer is with me right now, Mr. Edmond Jordan, a very well respected lawyer in the Baton Rouge area.
[20:05:14]Mr. Jordan, thank you for being with us.
EDMOND JORDAN, ATTORNEY FOR ALTON STERLING FAMILY: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: First of all, Mr. Jordan, whether Alton Sterling, age 37, was right or wrong, I want to tell his parents and his family how just sick I am over
this because I know what it`s like to have someone you love dead from gun violence. You don`t expect it. It just -- suddenly, you get that phone
call, and your whole world changes at that moment, and it never goes back to the way it was before, ever, no matter how many years pass.
Edmond Jordan -- this is the Alton Sterling family lawyer joining me out of Baton Rouge. Mr. Jordan, tell me your side of this. What do you believe
to be the facts?
JORDAN: I think the video clearly speaks for itself, Nancy. And I just witnessed a second cell phone video that was just produced, and it is even
more graphic and disturbing. Alton...
GRACE: You know what? While you`re talking...
JORDAN: ... was a man...
GRACE: While you`re talking, Edmond, we`re going to show it. Go ahead, sir. Warning, graphic.
JORDAN: And so -- and so I will tell you Alton looked like a man -- I described it earlier -- who was -- they had him pinned down. He was -- as
if he was drowning and trying to get his head up as if he was gasping for air, trying to get above the water.
And for the police officer to shoot him at point-blank range was clearly excessive and unjustified. So you know, whether he had a gun, I will tell
you that is a distraction right now. He was not making any move for a gun. He was not making any move for a weapon. He was not going into his
pockets. You can clearly see that, so I can tell you right now...
GRACE: I can hardly stand to look at it, Mr. Jordan. And I will say this...
JORDAN: It`s truly disturbing.
GRACE: ... I think it is valid -- I think it`s extremely valid and a point in the cops` favor that Alton Sterling did have a gun. However, the fact
that he may have had a record -- that has nothing to do with this because that would not be a reason to shoot somebody, because they`ve got a record.
And also, it will depend on whether they perceived he was reaching for the gun. And I`ve watched the video over and over and over, Mr. Jordan, I
can`t see whether he`s reaching for a gun or not.
Hold on. Mr. Jordan is with me. Nick Valencia with me on the scene. Joining me right now from Puerto Vallarta, Ron Martinelli, Dr. Martinelli,
forensic criminologist, author of "The Truth Behind Black Lives Matter Movement War on Cops."
Dr. Martinelli, thank you for being with us. First of all, it`s very important to me to know whether you have seen, whether you have observed
and studied this video.
RON MARTINELLI, FORENSIC CRIMINOLOGIST: Yes, I have. I have not seen the second video that Mr. Jordan is talking about.
GRACE: Everyone, with me, Ron Martinelli on the story.
But I want to go back now to Nick Valencia, CNN Correspondent. Nick, I mean, whether he has a record I don`t believe would be pertinent to whether
the cops were justified in shooting him. And when you look at the video, he`s down. (INAUDIBLE) got him down. I don`t even know if he can move.
However, he did have a gun. But if they perceived he was making a move for the gun, they`re going to walk scot-free.
But did you notice what all the people were saying in the car? Why did they shoot him? To them, nobody saw a move for the gun. What do you make
of that, Nick?
VALENCIA: A great point, Nancy. We`re told by sources that the officers had no idea about the criminal history of Alton Sterling when they showed
up. They were simply responding to that anonymous 911 call that a man, Alton Sterling, had a gun and was pointing it at individuals, the police
department saying that these officers so far, from what they could tell from this one cell phone video, had followed procedure.
It is worth noting in the 35-officer involved shootings that were investigated by the internal affairs department here in Baton Rouge in
2014, no officers were found to have done anything wrong. So lot of people here in this community, especially the activists -- they`re worried that
there won`t be justice in this case, either.
GRACE: You know, I`ve got another question for you, Nick Valencia. That 911 call you`re talking about that started this whole thing, that said
Alton Sterling had a weapon and he waved it at somebody -- what he`s doing out there, and he`s been doing it for years, according to what the mini-
mart manager told us -- been doing it a long time -- is he sells DVDs and CDs out there, OK? That`s what he does for a living.
[20:10:08]In fact, he had just come in, bought a drink, was talking to the manager. They were kidding around, calling each other names, laughing. He
goes back out.
This is an anonymous 911 call. Who made that call? Why did they make that call? These people sitting in the parking lot didn`t see him waving a gun
around. He`s out there to make a dollar, all right? Nobody saw him do that. Then who did call 911?
VALENCIA: There are no reports of him having waved a gun around by witnesses who spoke to police, that convenient store owner repeating the
story that you just said, that he was in a good mood and joking around in the minutes before the police showed up.
What`s really outraged people here is they`ve wanted -- they know that there are more angles, that they know that there are more video of this
shooting, including surveillance video inside that store, which perhaps we can glean more insight as to what happened leading up to the shooting.
GRACE: Right.
VALENCIA: The problem with all of that, Nancy, is that that video was obtained by the police department and they are not releasing it any time
soon, we`re told.
GRACE: Yes. OK, hold on, Nick Valencia. Mr. Jordan is staying with us. I`ve got Ron Martinelli`s bird up, his satellite back up.
OK, Mr. Martinelli, thank you again for joining us. You`re looking at this in completely different way. What`s your observation of this video? What
do you see?
MARTINELLI: Well, you know, first of all, I`m a forensic criminologist and police practice expert, so I don`t speculate on anything. And what I see
is that the officers had a legitimate reason to go out and make contact with Mr. Sterling. You know, whether the 911 call was anonymous or not is
irrelevant.
What is relevant is whether or not Mr. Sterling had a gun. So the officers absolutely had well within their rights to make contact with him and to
detain him, to investigate. You see that he was non-compliant. The officers gave him orders to get on the ground. He didn`t do it. They
tased him. The taser was having problems. And one of the officers tackled him and brought him to the ground. So now we have Mr. Sterling actively
resisting the police officer trying to control him...
GRACE: Now, wait! Wa-wa-wa-wait! I don`t see that. Let me see the video. Hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t -- you don`t...
GRACE: Martinelli, I agree with you so far. They get a 911 call that says this guy`s got a gun, he waved it at me. He`s got on a red jacket, a red
hoodie.
All right, they go out there. They see the man there in a red hoodie. So far, that`s confirmed. But I don`t see -- you`re about to see very graphic
and very disturbing video. Warning. But I don`t see the struggle that you`re talking about, Dr. Martinelli. Describe the struggle you think led
to the shooting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nancy, I watch hundreds of these videos. I`m involved in hundreds of these investigations. About 20 percent of what you see on
television are cases that I work and my team works. And I know active resistance when I see it, and he was actively resisting. Why did the
officers even have to tase him, OK?
GRACE: I don`t want to argue with you. I respect you. I respect you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, no, I`m not -- I`m not...
GRACE: I don`t want to argue. I`m just asking you a straight-up question. What is the resistance? That`s my only question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unless he gets down on the ground, once the officers have brought him to the ground, unless he stops resisting, he is actively
resisting the police. And the collective knowledge of the officers is that he`s armed with a gun. And the forensic fact is he was found with a gun in
his possession.
So the question in regards to this investigation is going to be whether or not at the critical moment when the officer fired upon him, whether he was
attempting to access the gun. Now, what you see in the video, the first one, is that, initially, Mr. Sterling has his hands up around his head.
And then suddenly, at least one hand moves, and you can`t see the hand, where it goes on the video.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:18:10]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The call came from someone who stated that a black male selling CDs and wearing a red sweatshirt threatened them with a
gun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At the scene of a deadly officer-involved shooting. Alton Sterling was shot and killed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever see him reach for his gun?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did not see (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coroner ruling that Sterling died of multiple gunshot wounds to the chest and back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I want to warn you the video you`re about to see is graphic and is very, very disturbing to watch. Now, I`ve got an expert telling me that
there`s resistance, and that`s why the cops shot 37-year-old Alton Sterling. Witnesses say they did not see resistance. Look at this. What
do you see?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s got a gun!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gun. Gun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh (EXPLETIVE DELETED)!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They shot him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my goodness.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me in addition to Nick Valencia, CNN correspondent joining me there at the Baton Rouge Police Department, joining me right now, Gerry
Vaillancourt, host of "The Morning News With Gerry V." Gerry, thank you for being with us. Tell me the version you`re hearing, Gerry.
GERRY VAILLANCOURT, "MORNING NEWS WITH GERRY V" (via telephone): The version we`re hearing here, one, is that the police officers made a
statement that they felt -- Nancy, thanks for having me on -- that their shooting was justified.
And as far as the 911 call, the east Baton Rouge attorney, Hillman Moore (ph), he said that he spoke to the anonymous caller and the anonymous
caller stands by his story. He`s yet to be identified. Those are two items that are there.
[20:20:04]The big question people are having is the many versions that you`re seeing on that video was where was the weapon? As you look at that
video, you see that one of the police officers tackle the individual from that right side, and he went down. And then you see the restraining of the
arms. Then you hear, Gun, he`s got a gun.
So the big argument they`re having here is, What gun? Where was the gun? And what exactly was said in that conversation with the 911 anonymous
caller where he verified seeing the gun? That seems to be the big talking point, that and whether or not it was excessive force, Nancy.
GRACE: Our people are telling us, Gerry Vaillancourt, there was a gun. He had on the red hoodie that the anonymous caller told police about. He was
in the location the caller told police about. That`s all on the police side.
However, this is where I differ with Dr. Ron Martinelli. I don`t see him make a move for the gun. Can`t just gun somebody down because they`ve got
a record. You can`t gun them down over a 911 call, especially anonymous. But if the police get there and they feel threatened, that changes
everything.
But it looks to me, Vaillancourt, like he`s down on the ground.
VAILLANCOURT: He is down on the ground. I`ve looked at that video many, many, many times. And you look to see whether or not there`s something in
either hand, Nancy, prior to being tackled. And that`s where the confusion is.
There`s just -- there`s innuendoes and rumors circulating that the gun was in the pocket, that the gun fell out, that there was the gun in the hand.
I`m curious to see what the statements are going to be when more official reports come out. I watched that second video from the different angle on
the cellphone when he was on the ground.
And it`s tough to verify, but the eyes (INAUDIBLE) the eyes don`t see something. I don`t see anything there that resembles anything that we can
call a gun in his possession as far as being in his hand. That`s where the big discrepancy and argument is taking place, Nancy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:26:20]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The individuals involved in his murder took away a man with children!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was no gun in his hand.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You will see with your own eyes how he was handled unjustly and killed without regard!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I cannot even imagine a wife or a mother having to make that statement about her son.
Guys, for those of you just joining us, a guy who was armed, OK, operative, was armed has been gunned down by the Baton Rouge Police Department. We
think one cop fired the shots. That`s what we`re being told right now, have not confirmed that. We believe that there are six bullets fired.
Straight out to Dr. Ken Radcroft (ph). Oh, hold on, Dr. Radcroft. I`m getting in a new angle from a photo.
Let`s see the angle, Liz, and see what we learn from it, the angle of the photo. OK, hold it. Hold it.
OK, what can I tell from that? He`s got his gun drawn. He`s got it pointed at the guy. It looks like his throat or between the face and the
upper chest. I don`t see struggle. You know what else I don`t see? I don`t see the guy`s arms. I do not see Alton Sterling`s arms. So what
happened?
Now, one thing that I will give the cops, another thing I`ll give the cops, is right before the shooting, you hear the cop say, He`s got a gun. He`s
got a gun. Hey, let`s pull that back up, Liz -- because up until that moment, you don`t hear them saying, Hey, man, put down your gun. Give me
your gun. But suddenly, they say, He`s got a gun, and then the shots happen.
Does that mean they see him pulling the gun? Warning, this video is graphic and extremely disturbing. Let`s see the truth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground! Get on the ground! (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s got a gun! A gun! (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh (EXPLETIVE DELETED)!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`d they do?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They shot him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Nick Valencia, CNN correspondent, did you see that new angle that shows the officer holding the gun -- drawing the gun on him? What about
that, Nick? It`s from the DailyBeast.
VALENCIA: We were. I just watched the DailyBeast video of that second video angle. And I have to say, Nancy, it doesn`t look good from an optics
perspective for the police department. That first angle we had been told up until now was the only angle, though there are activists here that were
saying there`s not -- that`s not true, that there were other videos that are going to be released.
And we just got our hands and saw that second video. It appears to show Alton Sterling laying down on the ground when one of the officers screams,
He has a gun, and then seconds after that, opens fire.
GRACE: But Nick Valencia, joining me right there at the Baton Rouge Police Department, does the new video show him making a move for his gun? I mean,
how can he make a move? They`re holding him down! Does it show him making a move for his gun? Because that is what`s going to control the outcome of
this entire scenario. Did he make a move for the gun? Did he?
VALENCIA: It doesn`t appear that he made a move for that weapon. I will have to say it`s a little bit grainy. I`m watching it off my cell phone,
but it doesn`t appear, Nancy, that he reached for that weapon.
If we learned anything, though, from precedent in
[20:30:00] police shootings it`s that officers in these cases when they are responding with the information that they`re giving, the responding or a
member to this case with a person armed pointing a gun at somebody, they usually. Unfortunately for the victim shot (ph), they usually get off. We
saw that in Florida with the case of Roy Middleton. We saw that in California with the case of Noel Aguilar and activists here hope that`s not
going to be the case with Alton Sterling. They want justice.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Selling CD`s on a corner. Gun in his pocket.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He experienced a horrible tragedy.
[20:35:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As a mother, I have now been forced to raise a son who is going to remember what happened to his father.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was no gun in his hand.
NANCY GRACE, CNN NANCY GRACE SHOW HOST: The witness says his hands were on the side of him and there was no gun in his hands. Now, from our intel, he
did have a gun on him, but not in his hands. So, what are the cops supposed to do? I want to warn you the video you`re about to see is graphic and
extremely disturbing. Let`s roll it, Liz. Baton Rouge police are called to a scene from anonymous 911 call. This is what happens.
(BEGIN VIDEO)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the (bleep) ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s got a gun. Don`t (bleep) move. I swear to God.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh (bleep).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my god.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They shot him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh my (bleep) goodness.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They killed that boy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And we also have that sound -- if you can pull it up, Liz -- of a witness saying that the victim, Alton Sterling, had his hands down at his
side on the ground when he was shot. To Nick Valencia, CNN correspondent, what do we know about Alton Sterling?
VALENCIA: We know that Howie Lake is a three-year veteran of the police force back in 2014. In December, Christmas Eve as a matter of fact, he was
involved in another officer involved shooting with about five other police officers. According to an Internal Affairs investigation, he was cleared of
any wrong doing.
We have been trying to dig in on the past of Blane Salamoni, the other police officer involved in this shooting but we have been unsuccessful so
far. The police department here being very tight lipped about their backgrounds.
GRACE: You`re seeing photos from "The Daily Beast." Gerry Vaillancourt, we have morning news with Gerry V, I`m asking about Alton Sterling. What do we
know about him?
GERRY VAILLANCOURT, MORNING NEWS WITH GERRY V. HOST: Previous charges to him of domestic violence charge. There was breaking into an occupied
residence. Those are some of the charges there that he`s had. And the list goes on. There`s about eight or nine charges. I understand there`s about 32
filings (ph) in each Baton Rouge police department about him. Some of those filings (ph) are emerging now. Some of them emerged earlier this morning.
One thing too, those police off cams, Baton Rouge is in a pilot program with the cams, and the problem is both police officers and a statement was
made that those cams became dislodged during the confrontation and that`s why there`s not a lot of clarity in the video and you`re not getting the
same footage on the tragic event.
GRACE: Right.
VAILLANCOURT: So that`s another issue that`s troubling.
GRACE: Hold on just a second Gerry Vaillancourt and Nick Valencia. We are just getting in new video. Warning, this video is graphic. It is extremely
disturbing. It`s from "The Daily Beast." What can we learn? Look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, bro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots fired. Shots fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Oh, my stars. You know, I can`t hardly stand even to look at it. You know, right or wrong, I can hardly stand to look at that happen to someone.
Dr. Ron Martinelli joining me, forensic criminologist. Weigh in, Dr. Martinelli.
RON MARTINELLI, FORENSIC CRIMINOLOGIST: Nancy, first of all, I think you`ve misquoted me with regards to the type of resistance, okay. First of all, I
do see active resistance. There`s plainly active resistance here. The next thing is, with the video -- and I`ve only seen the one video. But the video
doesn`t show anybody where Mr. Sterling`s hands were, okay. And that`s going to be the key issue here. Was he attempting to access a gun? That`s
the key issue.
If he was, the officers knew he had a gun. They`re allowed to work on that representation from the 911 call, and just so that you know, all the vetted
research shows that a person only takes a quarter of a second to access a concealed weapon and to turn that weapon on an officer and shoot that
officer. And officers are trained to that. I`ve done some of the vetting research myself.
[20:40:00] GRACE: Let me tell you something, sir. Let me tell, you can tell me about research all day long and I did not misquote you. I said that you
say you saw resistance and you keep saying I see resistance, I see resistance. Okay, what? My first question to you at the get-go was, what is
the resistance you`re saying -- you`re talking about because I don`t see it, the witnesses don`t see it...
MARTINELLI: Nancy.
GRACE: ...as you know, I let you finish and I`m going to finish now. Do not tell me about research sir. One of my best friends on the P.D., Atlanta
P.D. was gunned down for no reason on a traffic stop, for nothing. All right, he asked for a driver`s license. He`s dead.
My fiance is gunned down by gun violence for no reason, right before our wedding. So, you know, you telling me all about research. All I care about
is this case. Your research is right out the window. I want to know what happened here and you`ve yet to tell me what active resistance.
MARTINELI: Nancy.
GRACE: What!?
MARTINELLI: Here`s what I`m not going to -- Nancy, here`s not what I`m not going to do with you. I`m not going to get into some sort of emotional
discussion with you on forensic patterns of research, okay. I`m not going to get into that with you.
GRACE: You`re the one that brought it up. I asked you ten times what resistance and you won`t answer. That`s all I want to hear from you. What
did he do? Reach for his gun? Struggle? Throw a punch? This last video, we see his hands. They`re at his side.
MARTINELLI: Nancy, you`re looking at a couple of videos I don`t see. Your producer presented me with one video. I see active resistance...
GRACE: Okay, guys, send him the videos.
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A man shot dead by police has sparked outrage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officers say they got a call that a man was outside the store carrying a gun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Selling CD`s on a corner. Gun in his pocket.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A deputy encountered (ph) shots several times at point- blank range.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots fired. Shots fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: If 37-year-old Alton Sterling made a move for his weapon, then the cops are in the clear and they did the right thing. But if he didn`t, then
these cops may be charged with homicide. We just obtained a new video that has emerged from "The Daily Beast. Let`s look at it from this angle. It is
graphic and let me promise you, disturbing. Watch Alton Sterling`s hands.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, bro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground.
(Inaudible)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots fired. Shots fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Margie Mow and Jason Oshins. Okay, Margie Mow, tell me your observation. We`ve all been watching this over and over and
over to determine the truth.
MARGIE MOW, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And this is a horrific case and it`s very difficult to see where exactly his arms are. And as everybody`s been
arguing, the issue really comes down to whether or not the officers were in fear for their lives. Whether they felt that he was reaching for the gun
and was going to use deadly force against them because if that`s what they felt...
GRACE: Right.
MOW: ...then they had every right to use deadly force against him and there`s just going to be self-defense.
GRACE: Okay, Jason Ocean, agree or disagree?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, we don`t see the -- we don`t see the right hand. We don`t see the confrontation on the side of the car. No one
is going to indict anyone at the moment. We`re going to be prudent about getting all the information.
GRACE: That`s not what I asked you.
OSHINS: We`re not going to have a rush to justice.
GRACE: I agree with you on all of that Jason, but I`m asking you what you saw. Why don`t you want to answer me, Jason? Why don`t you want to answer -
- that`s a question?
OSHINS: Because I don`t want to be part of a rush to judgment in any way from two grainy...
GRACE: Nobody is rushing to justice.
OSHINS: ...two grainy videos off of cell phones from the side without the benefit of looking at it completely.
GRACE: You know who was by my side in every case I ever prosecuted?
OSHINS: Who?
GRACE: Cops.
OSHINS: Right.
GRACE: Cops, police, APD, U.S. Marshals, you name it. They saved me more than I can tell you including saving my life on a couple of occasions. You
think I want the cops to be wrong?
OSHINS: No, I`m not saying that at all.
GRACE: I don`t want the cops to be wrong, Jason. You know me better than that.
OSHINS: Nancy, I`m not...
GRACE: What I want is the truth.
OSHINS: No, I`m not saying that.
GRACE: And I don`t care if they`re wearing a police uniform.
OSHINS: I want the truth to come out as well.
GRACE: Then why won`t you answer? Why are you afraid to answer?
OSHINS: I`m with you. I`m not afraid to answer anything, Nancy. I`m not afraid at all.
GRACE: So what did you see? Did you see him make a move for the gun? Did you see something?
OSHINS: I can`t see the side of the right -- you see where the officer took the gun out? From the right pocket. He took that out of his waistband. I
can`t see that from that angle. I see the gun being removed after he was shot.
GRACE: I hear you. I hear you.
OSHINS: I can`t see on the side.
GRACE: Okay, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, author of "Deal Breakers." Listen Bethany, I am not gunning for the cops. I`m on the side
of the cops. But if they shot this guy, Alton Sterling, and he was not reaching for his gun then they`re wrong and they need to be prosecuted. If
he reached for it, absolutely.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: At the gun (ph), then fine. They`re right.
GRACE: Why is everybody so crazy about this? It`s all a matter of one fact. Did he reach for his gun? That`s all I`m asking.
MARSHALL: Nancy, we can`t know, but what I do know is I do not see resistance. I see a very vulnerable member of our society who is out in
front of a convenience store trying to earn a living on the very day where most parents are hanging out with their kids. He`s just trying to make a
dollar.
He is a limited human being and they tackled him. I don`t see resistance. I see a very frightened man who does not know what`s happening to him. Nancy,
if you or I, were standing in front of that store with a pistol in our purse, do you think they would tackle us to the ground? Absolutely not.
[20:50:00] GRACE: Well, you left out a major component in that, and again, I`m not taking his side. I`m not taking the cops side. I want the truth and
I don`t care what the truth us. I don`t care if I like it. I don`t care if it tastes bad. I don`t care if it`s sickening. I want the truth.
What you`re leaving out is that 911 call from an anonymous person that could be anybody that may have an ax to grind with Sterling that says he
waved a gun. I mean, so Dr. Ken Redcross, board certified internal medicine and concierge doctor out of New York -- Dr. Redcross, what are we going to
learn from the wounds themselves, the trajectory path of the bullet?
KEN REDCROSS, BOARD-CERTIFIED INTERNAL MEDICINE: Yeah, we`re going to learn a lot Nancy because you could see even from that video that it looks like
this was point blank. I think it`s important for us to really understand taser 101. Number one, you get involuntary movements. You get someone who
is dazed even after he is shot you see his body is still moving.
So, it`s quite interesting to see how this is all playing out. But from the wounds, you`re going to see that they`re point-blank. And for the
trajectory, you`re going to see that there may not be much force against the chest wall at the point to when he was shot. And also the number of
times that he was shot becomes increasingly important as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUINYETTA, MCMILLON, MOTHER OF ALTON`S SON: As a mother, I have now been forced to raise a son who is going to remember what happened to his father.
That I can`t take away from him. He is at an age of understanding. I hurt more for him and his loss.
[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A guy is dead. A 31-year-old man is dead and it does not matter if he has a record. Doesn`t matter, any of that doesn`t matter. All that
matters is were cops in fear of their life? Did he go for the gun? Because if he did, the cops were in the clear. Warning, the video you`re about to
see is graphic and extremely disturbing. We just got this in from "The Daily Beast." Let`s take a look at what it shows.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, bro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground.
(Inaudible)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots fired. Shots fired
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I want to compare this to the other video. But back to Dr. Ron Martinelli, author of "The Truth Behind Black Lives Matter Movement and the
War on Cops." Dr. Martinelli, tell me, we`ll try again, when you say there`s active resistance on the part of Alton Sterling, what is the
resistance you`re seeing?
MARTINELLI: Well, first of all, your doctor is wrong about tasers, okay. He`s wrong on many levels. He needs to stay in his wheel house, which is
gunshot wounds. There`s no good evidence that Mr. Sterling when he was shot by the taser exhibited any signs of neuromuscular incapacitation, and
that`s why the police officer tackled him.
The next thing, the taser cycles for only five seconds. Mr. Sterling was already on the ground at that time so any involuntary muscle movement --
all of that just goes out the window. Your doctor is wrong. But talking about acts of resistance...
GRACE: What`s your act of resistance for the now ninth time? What`s the act of resistance you see?
MARTINELLI: He is not doing what the officers told him to do. They have two officers trying to physically control him. If he wasn`t resistance, why is
it taking two officers to physically control this man, okay?
GRACE: Okay. Never mind because you`re still not telling me what you see that he did. And now I think I`ve asked you, I think ten times if not nine.
To Gerry Vaillancourt, Morning News with Gerry and Michael Christian joining us. Michael, when I ask people about Alton Sterling, they`re very
quick to tell me his rap sheet. What else do we know about him?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, he had -- reportedly he had five children. The eldest of these children is a 15-year-old son. So, there
are a lot of kids there who are going to grow up without a father. He was working as a cook in a shelter and apparently was living in that shelter as
well.
GRACE: Tonight, our thoughts with Alton Sterling`s family and we pray for justice whatever the case may be, whether he reached for his gun, whether
he did not. We want the truth. Let`s remember American hero Army Sergeant Howard Allen, 31, Mesa, Arizona. Bronze star and Purple Heart. Parents Herb
and Barbara. Sister Diane. Brothers Robert, Ryan, Steven. Widow, Patience. Children, Devlin, Caitlin and Edwin. Howard Allen, American hero.
Thanks to all of our guests for being with us and especially to you for being with us tonight inviting us into your homes. Nancy Grace signing off.
See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp eastern. Until then, good night.
[21:00:00]
END
