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Nancy Grace

Who Was Dallas Police Shooter?; New Details on Cop Killer; Latest on Why Philando Castile was Pulled Over. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired July 11, 2016 - 20:00   ET


RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST: Breaking news in the deadly police ambush in Dallas. We have new details tonight about the gunman, his shooting

massacre plot and new evidence found inside his home. It`s all as protests across the country over two deadly police shootings turn violent.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s a cop down!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s four cops down!


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But the peaceful protest turned to panic by unimaginable violence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got a guy with a long rifle! We don`t know where the hell he`s at!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots filled the air and chaos filled the streets.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was the single deadliest day for law enforcement since 9/11.


COSBY: And good evening, everybody. I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace tonight.

We begin with the deadly police shootings in Dallas as new evidence is found inside the gunman`s home. Let`s go straight to CNN correspondent Ed

Lavandera, who`s on the scene in Dallas.

Ed, Dallas police chief Dave Brown held a very intense press conference today, just a little bit ago. What did we learn, Ed?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, investigators here are still trying to figure out a series of things. Outside of those

conversations that they had with the killer inside that second story of the community college in downtown Dallas, where Micah Johnson was eventually

killed and he professed that he wanted to kill white people, specifically white police officers -- that is the extent of the firsthand directly from

this killer about his motivations.

Now, since then, investigators and detectives have gone into his house, found a series of weaponry, other handgun boxes and that sort of thing, but

as well as bomb-making materials, and that is what has investigators here in Dallas the most perplexed.

What exactly was the motivation behind all of this? Was this part of a bigger plan? Was this part of some other conspiracy in play? And that`s

what detectives are very much focused on right now.

COSBY: Let`s go to Kate Delaney, investigative reporter, syndicated radio host with America Tonight. Kate, what else do we know about this arsenal?

KATE DELANEY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Yes, Rita, apparently, he had all kinds of explosives. He also had other makings, chemicals for pipe bombs,

hundreds of rounds of ammunition. And it certainly looked like, according to a manifesto they also found that had tactics for ways to shoot and evade

and to move that were written out across the board through several pages in volumes, it looked like -- that there was something else that was going on.

But lots and lots of weapons.

COSBY: Andrew Lee, host with KTLK, AM 1130 -- Andrew, this manifesto -- he also had a journal, right?

ANDREW LEE, KTLK (via telephone): That`s what I understand, yes. He had been keeping a very detailed journal, kind of a scary journal of all the

things that he had been building up and going on and all the things that sort of led him to this precipice of violence.

COSBY: Yes, and it certainly sounds like it was brewing for a long time, Andrew, right? This wasn`t like, suddenly, something just happened. It

sounds like it`s leading up to it, correct?

LEE: That`s what it certainly appears, yes. This was not something -- he did -- this wasn`t a snap. This was a culmination of events and triggers

that just drove him further and further down this line.

COSBY: And Ed Lavandera, CNN correspondent, to what Andrew was just saying, it sounds like Micah Johnson, this shooter, had this plan with the

bombing, with these other things, and yet the events in Minnesota and Louisiana, those shootings by police of African-Americans -- that hastened

the process, it seems. That`s what they believe, right, Ed?

LAVANDERA: Yes, that perhaps something along the line either moved up his timeline, exactly, although the events of that last Thursday night also

seem to be very improvised. According to the police chief, that Black Lives Matter protest was scheduled just to take place in a park not too far

from where the shooting occurred.

And according to the police chief and his officers that were involved in the planning process, preparing for that demonstration downtown, they said

that the march became a spontaneous thing that just happened.

So it doesn`t appear there`s any way that Micah Johnson would have known that this particular, like, march route would have happened, and that the

police chief says that Micah Johnson was able to move his SUV through the traffic there, position himself into an area quickly to fire off those

shots, but essentially saying that much of this was improvised on the fly in a very quick way. So that is also a fascinating and troubling element

to all of this.

COSBY: Yes, it certainly is. The other thing today, one of the things I think about so much is in the press conference -- and I want to play a

little clip. This is the surgeon. And this is Brian Williams, who -- it was just gripping to watch him. And I want to get your reaction after

this. Here`s a little bit of this. This is this gripping press conference from one of the surgeons there that night.


[20:05:15]DR. BRIAN H. WILLIAMS, TRAUMA SURGEON: I want to say first and foremost, I stand with the Dallas Police Department. I stand with law

enforcement all over this country. This experience has been very personal for me, a turning point in my life. There was the added dynamic of

officers being shot.

We routinely care for multiple gunshot victims, but the preceding days of more black men dying at the hands of police officers affected me. I think

the reasons are obvious. I fit that demographic of individuals. But I abhor what has been done to these officers, and I grieve with their


I understand the anger and the frustration and distrust of law enforcement, but they are not the problem. The problem is the lack of open discussions

about the impact of race relations in this country.


COSBY: What a powerful message. Ed Lavandera, that is just so gripping to see this comment from the surgeon, African-American, talking about just the

anger and the frustration that so many African-Americans are feeling, and yet also just such appreciation for law enforcement. I thought that was

such a powerful moment, Ed.

LAVANDERA: Especially when you consider, you know, this isn`t uncommon in some of these, like, mass shooting situations, for the doctors who handle

the initial rush of work there to come out and answer questions about what that experience meant to them. But this was much different from other

events and other cases that we`ve seen. So you`re right, very powerful.

And it really speaks to -- you know, there were two hospitals that handled the onslaught of the victims that were brought in and rushed in, and many

of them have said over the last couple of days that as word was trickling out and spreading in those initial chaotic moments, and they talked about

the officers arriving on the scene, just the intensity of the emotion as they started to realize and started to comprehend exactly what just

happened, and taking all that in was incredibly overwhelming for a lot of people who -- those first responders and those people working in the

emergency room. Very tough.

COSBY: Yes, you bet. Kate Delaney, we`re also getting more details today to how many officers were involved, and that also two more were injured,

apparently, when the gunman burst in, breaking the glass to get into the building.

DELANEY: Yes. It`s crazy. Obviously, we know, sadly, five killed. We know seven others were injured and hospitalized, and there were a couple of

others that were injured, as well. So the total keeps moving all over the place. But Rita, I know that it`s up over 14.

COSBY: Over 14. What`s the status of the ones who are in the hospital, too? Because gosh, our heart breaks for them and their families. Of

course, the officers` families of those who lost their lives -- that is the most heart-breaking, but there are still who are in very serious condition,

right, Kate?

DELANEY: Yes, absolutely. There are a couple of officers who are still fighting, we would say, for their lives. In other words, they`re in

critical condition, but looking better is the latest word I got from my sources before we went on the air here. So that is good news. They feel

like they`re going to pull out of it, but you never know.

COSBY: Absolutely. Justin Freiman, NANCY GRACE producer, as Ed was touching on, they go to his home. Describe a little bit more -- there are

lot of what, gun boxes in the home of the shooter?

JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): That`s right. There are. There`s proof that he had been buying more guns in recent days, as

well as ammunition. But police aren`t saying he was actually as stockpiling weapons.

COSBY: Let`s go back to Ed Lavandera, CNN correspondent there in Dallas. Ed, the mood on the ground now, as we`re getting more details about this

man, and also just the mood on the ground and just this horrible loss. I know tomorrow, the president`s going to be going there, and sadly, the

funerals start tomorrow.

LAVANDERA: Yes. I think there`s still just a sense of overwhelming disbelief. You`ve seen, you know, behind this pile of balloons and flowers

that you see here behind me, the police department had put out two police cars and it kind of became a gathering point. And it`s just grown and

grown, a steady stream of people coming throughout the time.

You definitely get that sense from people that they`re stunned that this debate and the tensions over all of this has reached this climatic point to

where you`ve seen five police officers killed in such a tragic way. And I think many people just have that sense of, you know, wondering what`s going

to happen next. Is it going to get worse or is this going to get better?

[20:10:06]COSBY: Well, that`s the big concern. And Ed, there have been arrests all over the country this weekend, including in Minneapolis, a

number of places all over, and Minnesota. There`s been a number of arrests too, right, Ed?

LAVANDERA: Yes, there have been. Over the weekend, I think it was more than 300 arrests in various cities. You saw protests shutting down

highways in Atlanta, Molotov cocktails and rocks being thrown off of a bridge in St. Paul, Minnesota. In Baton Rouge, protests became very tense

with police responding in SWAT -- in riot gear in those situations.

So despite what has happened here in Dallas, those protests continue and have escalated in many cases.

COSBY: And Justin Freiman, you know, it breaks my heart as an American to see this country like this and to see these protests like that. I think,

obviously, peaceful ones are good, but when it gets to the point where it`s in Dallas, it`s just despicable. It is so horrifying.

The sense that there is still this rage at some of the protests, right, Justin, from what we`ve seen in a number of them across the country? And

in fact, in one of the ones I was talking about in Minnesota, they were actually throwing bricks at the police officers and Molotov cocktails,


FREIMAN: That`s right. There`s reports of 27 officers being injured, some being pelted with rocks, bottles and even fireworks.



[20:15:22]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officer down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five officers were killed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just don`t understand why someone could do this!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s in that building right there!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nine officers were wounded.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a cop down?



COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace with a lot of new details in the Dallas shooting. Let`s go back to Kate Delaney. Kate, I want to ask

you about the robot. We`re getting all these new details. And this was, like, the first time ever a robot was used to take out the guy, the


DELANEY: Yes, absolutely. I think that that`s kind of the intriguing thing, if you will, Rita, about this. After negotiating with the gunman

for a very long time, he shot -- fired shots off, talked about wanting to kill white people, more white people and cops. Eventually, the negotiators

decided, OK, this is not going to end the way we want it to perhaps end by apprehending him. Therefore, they decided to use that robot, and

effectively, it annihilated him and the threat.

COSBY: You know what`s amazing today? There are a number of people who are saying, Oh, was that the ethical thing to do? And the police chief

there in Dallas says, How do you even respond to whether it was ethical, which I don`t think anybody who was shooting at cops deserves to, you know,

have -- have -- you know, people talking about the ethics at that point.

Let`s go to Ken Williams, use of force, police reform expert. Ken Williams, what`s your reaction to this? I say bravo that they did this.

KEN WILLIAMS, USE OF FORCE/POLICE REFORM EXPERT: Well, I think, you know, I want to say condolences to families of -- you know, who are victims of

gun violence in America. I mean, you know, if we, you know, just take a moment to reflect on officers, and as well as civilian victims, I think

that`s where the country needs to be, instead of trying to separate groups.

COSBY: Absolutely. By the way, absolutely.

WILLIAMS: In terms of Dallas and the use of a robot, it is an intriguing area that is brand-new. Some of the things that I think about -- and of

course, we don`t -- it`s very easy, you know, to armchair quarterback something in the safety -- in a safe environment. People who are on the

ground have to make split-second decisions.

COSBY: Can you believe -- can you believe -- and let me ask you (INAUDIBLE) here`s a little comment from the chief first, Ken, talking

about the use of the robot. Again, what they did was they put explosives on the robot. And in fact, the chief gave an order basically, you know,

saying, Don`t blow up the building, but get him. Here`s the comment.


BROWN: We knew through negotiations this was the suspect because he was asking us how many did he get, and he was telling us how many more he

wanted to kill. This -- this -- this wasn`t an ethical dilemma for me. I`d do it again, Keith (ph). I`d do it again to save our officers` lives.


BROWN: To use a robot? I would use any tool necessary to save our officers` lives, and I`m not ashamed to say it.


COSBY: Ken Williams, what`s your reaction to some people are saying was an ethical dilemma?

WILLIAMS: I mean, the issue, of course, is that police are trained to shoot to stop a threat. If death results from using deadly force, that is

a consequence from the use of deadly force. I think some people are going to have a problem with this because it`s actually a kill order, and that

might be something that we have to discuss as a nation, whether or not offering kill orders is proper.

COSBY: Lots of questions today, and of course, a lot of procedural questions. The other thing we`re finding out is that there`s 170 hours of

bodycam video, 300 witnesses. Kate Delaney, that`s a lot to go through.

DELANEY: Yes, absolutely. I spoke to a detective today, and he pretty much told me when I pressed him a little bit on the timeline that they have

no idea how long it`s going to take to process all of this information, bring the correct witnesses back once they decide they`ve got something to

add to the story. But that`s a lot of people and a lot of evidence also that they have to go over.

COSBY: Yes, Justin Freiman, that`s a lot of coordinating, too. I mean, you and I have covered a lot of cases together. You`ve certainly covered

so much on the show, Justin. That is voluminous to go through.

FREIMAN: That`s right, it`s a lot to go through, and then to put it all together and match it up to find out where it leads you.

COSBY: Absolutely. One of the other big questions today is about these initials. Justin, tell us about these initials that were coming out.

FREIMAN: Yes. He apparently put initials on the wall in his own blood "R.B.," and they`re still trying to investigate what that might have meant.

COSBY: Let`s go to the police chief commenting about these initials that we`re seeing here.


[20:20:02]BROWN: The Dallas Police Department, working with the Federal Bureau of Investigation -- we`re working also with our law enforcement

partners in the area -- to determine the meaning of the initials "R.B." that were scribed (ph) on the walls there in two locations inside El



COSBY: Tiffany Sanders, psychologist, what do you make of this, these initials that clearly are not his initials?

TIFFANY SANDERS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Right. It makes me wonder what was he thinking that he wants to carve his skin and use his own blood to put some

cryptic message on the wall. And unfortunately, because they blew him up, you know, they didn`t have -- they don`t have the ability to go back and

figure that out. So I`m very concerned about his mental health status. Did this young man have PTSD? He was a former veteran who served in

Afghanistan, and he...


COSBY: Tiffany, with all due respect, you sound like you`re making a lot of excuses for this killer.

SANDERS: Not at all. I`m trying to understand what was going on in his mental mind, in his mental capacity that would lead him to do this. We

have to realize there are other vets who may be unstable who`s coming back from serving in Iraq or Afghanistan, who may also be radicalized, Rita,

that may have contributed to another situation like this.

COSBY: Let`s -- I want to see a focus real quick on the "R.B." Let`s go back to Justin Freiman. Do we know where authorities are trying to trace -

- I assume, Justin, they`re going to look for everything in this guy`s background. Was there -- is it a girlfriend? Is it a colleague? Is it

maybe somebody in the military with him, right?

FREIMAN: That`s right. They`re looking through all that, and of course, through social media just to see what any of this might mean.



[20:25:50]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Deaths of five officers in Dallas by a lone gunman.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The problem is the lack of open discussions about the impact of race relations in this country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got a guy with a long rifle. We don`t know where the hell he`s at!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) He`s in the damn building right there!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wasn`t able to save those cops when they came here that night. It weighs on my mind constantly.


COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace. A really emotional news conference that took place just a few hours ago.

So many new details in the Dallas shooting case, and there as we look at the officers who tragically lost their lives, five heroes that we`re

learning a lot more about today, as well.

And we`re also hearing from the surgeon, Brian Williams, who gave a very moving, moving comments about what he experienced, some of the rage he

experienced and also just some of the incredible loss over the officers.


WILLIAMS: I think about it every day, that I was unable to save those cops when they came here that night. It weighs on my mind constantly.

This killing, it has to stop, black men dying and being forgotten, people retaliating against the people that are sworn to defend us. We have to

come together and end all this.

For me, this is one of the most difficult times in my life, when I recognize that no matter what I`m going through right now, compared to what

the families of the officers and the victims that were killed this last week, is nothing.

Yes, I want some time off. I`ve been going non-stop since Thursday night, but those families have lost something very important to them, the

officers, the victims in Baton Rouge, Minneapolis -- Minnesota, I`m sorry. So it`s hard for me to complain about my life right now in comparison to



COSBY: Kate Delaney, when I hear that, it is so emotional to hear, and here is an African-American talking about the anger and frustration that he

feels as an African-American, and yet just his heart bleeds for the officers and their families. That was so gripping, Kate.

DELANEY: Yes, absolutely, I agree. And honestly, I think the people, Rita, in Dallas, as somebody who`s lived here 20 years, I think they are

just disheartened by what has happened. Everybody that I have encountered -- not just detectives and police officers, but everybody I`ve encountered,

their eyes fill with tears immediately when we think of the events that unfolded last week. Just awful.

COSBY: Jake Hunt, you are a friend of Micah Johnson, the shooter. You knew him. How long did you know him? And did you know he would do this

horrendous act?

JAKE HUNT, HIGH SCHOOL FRIEND OF SHOOTER (via telephone): No, ma`am. I knew him when we were in high school. I met him when I was 17 years of age

when I transferred from (INAUDIBLE) High. He was going to (INAUDIBLE) that I met at the high school. And I didn`t think he would do anything like

that. He didn`t show any signs like that back in high school or anything like that. He was always really friendly, really funny. He was always

making our group laugh. So it just seemed so crazy that he would do something so extreme.

COSBY: What was he like? As we`re hearing, we know that he was an Army veteran, he went to Afghanistan. We`re not hearing of any prior arrests at

this point. What kind of person? Was he social? Was he an outcast? Was he reclusive?

HUNT: He wasn`t a recluse, but he had friends. There was a group that he was friends with (INAUDIBLE) So he had friends. He just -- he wasn`t a

loner, like he was (INAUDIBLE) He spoke (ph) to a lot of us. (INAUDIBLE) was recluse sometimes, and not a whole lot of -- he didn`t give any

(INAUDIBLE) details.

COSBY: What was your reaction when you found out he was the shooter? Here`s this guy who you went to high school with, you knew.

HUNT: It was heartbreaking and it was -- I was shocked because when I first saw the story I didn`t believe it was him. I heard the name, and I was

like, it`s got to be another Micah because it`s too close to home and he couldn`t be the one that I know. So it was crazy when I finally saw the

pictures and everything and realized that it was this Micah.




[20:35:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Five Dallas police officers killed. Seven officers and two civilians wounded.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dallas Police Chief David Brown provided some of the most chilling and descriptive details of the standoff and the tragic


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suspect had other plans, thought that what he was doing was righteous.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Code 3. Stay off the radio. Officer down.


COSBY: Rita Cosby here, in for Nancy Grace. Lots of new details tonight in the Dallas police shootings. Of course, this comes after two African-

Americans were killed by cops, Alton Sterling and Philando Castile.

But still, no excuse whatsoever for this horrible, horrible shooting that have taken place, but still lots of questions all the way around tonight.

Let`s go to Ron Pinkston, President of the Dallas Police Association. And I want to find out a little bit about these officers, Ron, who were killed.

We just heard some really amazing stories of their heroism and the type of men they that they were.

RON PINKSTON, DALLAS POLICE ASSOCIATION PRESIDENT: Yeah, these were definitely five heroes. These were what officers are described to be their

professionalism and their ability to go out and protect and serve all the citizens of Dallas that day. Even thought there were protesters who were

protesting against them.

But these guys weren`t just police officers. These five heroes were fathers, sons and husbands. They were coaches and members of the church, so

we can`t forget, you know, want to just label them as a police officer but that`s not accurate. These people, these five heroes, they had a bigger

role in life.

COSBY: I can`t even imagine what their family -- and our prayers, of course, go out so much to the Dallas community. How is the law enforcement

association? I hope they feel that so many people around the country just love them and appreciate them and I hope they`re feeling the warmth from

all of that because the whole country is in shock over this.

PINKSTON: Well, the officers are still hurt and angry but the tremendous outpouring we`ve seen from all around the world, not just our country, has

helped motivate them and keep them going.

They`re still out on the street. Many of the officers that were out there that night, the next day they were out answering calls. Men with guns and

they`re still answering the calls. And that shows the dedication of the officers of the Dallas Police Department.

COSBY: You bet. You bet. Well, our prayers are with them absolutely. Please let them know that we love them and we appreciate what they do.

Sharay Santora, you were actually out there when this happened. And it`s important to remember that there were a lot of people out there who were

not, of course, happy and were outraged by what happened with Alton Sterling, who lost his life and also Philando Castile who lost his life to

tragic cases.

And, you know, people who were out there protesting peacefully and upset at what happened and then suddenly what happened? What did you experience when

you were out there? Sharay, what did you see?

SHARAY SANTORA, WITNESS TO SHOOTINGS: Just listening to how other people viewed it is hard sometimes, because when my family and I drove out to be a

part of the movement, we saw nothing but love. And we saw so many people that were there. We saw the police officers that were hugging us, high

fiving, taking photos with us and being in that moment with us and marching with us.

And it`s hard to think that people will believe that we were there for anything more than to be together and to have unity and solidarity and say

that, yes, we`re angry, yes, we`re upset, but we love you, we`re here and we`re trying to figure it out.

COSBY: So, you were with your two kids, right? I just can`t imagine what that must have been like for you, Sharay, in the middle of it all. What

went through your mind when suddenly, this beautiful protest where a lot of people came with obviously very good intention that it turned so horribly


SANTORA: The first thing that went through my mind was, oh, no. The second thing was where do I run to with them? How do I protect them? Which way

should we -- which way should we move? And directly after that was stay calm because I knew that if I panicked, that they would get scared and they

would panic.

COSBY: Were your kids OK and everybody you love OK?

[20:40:00] SANTORA: Yes, ma`am. I mean, as -- physically, definitely. We survived the moment. We made it out alive, fortunately. But you see the

effects. You see the changes in your kids` faces. I see the look in their eyes when I leave the house, and it`s a conversation that we have had

continuously, family conversations day in and day out, when we wake up in the morning.

There`s more hugs and more kisses because it wasn`t happening to the world. It wasn`t happening somewhere else. We weren`t in Ferguson. We weren`t in

Baton Rouge, we were in Dallas, at home, five minutes away from our house and it happened to us and it really brings it home.

COSBY: It certainly does. Well, I am so glad that you and your kids are OK. Thank you for sharing that. Let`s go to Robert Morris, Policy Fellow with

the Independent Institute.

You hear Sharay`s story and just how horrific it was for even her seeing this and experiencing it with her two kids. I can`t imagine. Robert, what

do you think, after seeing all of this, drove this mad man?

ROBERT MORRIS, THE INDEPENDENT INSTITUTE POLICY FELLOW: Well, I -- first of all, I want to say that my sympathy goes out to those who were affected.

But in terms of a lone gunman, I think we spend an awful lot of time trying to figure out the mind of someone who was obviously disturbed.

Our inability to provide the kinds of health services that are necessary in this country to veterans, people who feel that they don`t have a shot in

this country, find themselves angry, distrustful. We need to pay more attention to those types of individuals.


COSBY: The problem is, Robert, the problem in this case is there doesn`t seem to be a lot of warning signs. I mean, we`re talking to friends and

people who say he was happy, he was this, he was that. Obviously, he was different in his logs and his journals, but it doesn`t seem like this was a

guy who was going around ranting and raving too much.

MORRIS: Well, I think this falls into the category of I believe that if you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. And we

continue to look at these individuals and try to unravel what was their motivation.

I think we have to accept -- and this came to me from a good pediatrician friend, there is a certain percent of just bad people, and there`s nothing

we can do to account for them to make them better and make them healthier, but what we can do is understand it`s not all of us and we shouldn`t allow

that small group of damaged individuals to change our lifestyles, to change the way we worship, where we go, who our friends are because once we`ve

done that, they`ve won.

So I think it`s incumbent on all of us to understand that we can`t do anything about -- for the most part, can`t foresee the way people who are

mentally disturbed are going to react.

However, we can do something about making sure that both individuals can seek help and counseling as opposed to the latest shooters we`ve seen who

showed warning signs of hostility, anger, resentment and there was no one to call anyone else to assist them to help them with this dilemma so they

finally acted it out.

And I have to say on the part of our police people, there are -- they are very necessary. They`re our first responders. They run to danger as we run

from danger. And it`s very important that we support them and that in that supporting them, provide them the resources to also stay healthy and

focused in their jobs.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s a cop down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s four cops down.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The peaceful protest turned to panic by unimaginable violence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got a guy with a long rifle. We don`t know where the hell he`s at.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots filled the air and chaos fills the streets.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was the single deadliest day for law enforcement since 9/11.


COSBY: Rita Cosby here, in for Nancy Grace. Well, the man who killed those five police officers and injured so many others said in part that it was

because he was upset about Black Lives Matter and also in part because he was upset about the recent shootings that took place in Minnesota and also

in Louisiana.

And Justin Freiman, I understand there are some new details especially in the case in Minnesota. So many questions about what happened in this case,

and of course it doesn`t look good for cops when you see the video tape.

I mean, in the Alton Sterling was telling the CDs and then you see that he`s killed, multiple shots and then in the Philando Castile case, you see

that the Facebook live that happened. It`s almost unbelievable. That video that we`ve been seeing with the girlfriend filming it. What`s the latest

especially in the Philando Castile case? Some new developments there?

JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Rita, the latest in the Minnesota Department of Public Safety has not provided details as to why he was

actually pulled over, but there is a full investigation going on.

COSBY: You know, Ken Williams, what`s always baffling to me in the use of police -- you know, use of force expert/police reform expert, why are we

not getting more details from the cops? Because we`re looking at the footage and it looks so bad for police officers.

Again, we don`t know what happened before the cameras were rolling but when you`re seeing this, people are upset. They`re angry. They`re frustrated so

much so that they`re out protesting and so much so that these crazy people are using it as their twisted logic to do something. Why are not

authorities releasing more details if they have more details?

[20:50:00] WILLIAMS: I think part of the problem is that we have to accept that there is an issue of racial profiling in America. There`s also

intentional discrimination in America and there are a number of people, I mean, I`m a black male. I mean, I can recall when I was younger, possibly

being racially profiled. So I think a lot of black citizens have a justification for feeling the way that they do and police officers and

police agencies and the police institution should be releasing this information far sooner.


COSBY: I agree.

WILLIAMS: That way, they can dispel some of that.

COSBY: I agree. Let`s go to Paul Henderson, Veteran Prosecutor. I also want to go to the defense attorneys.

But Paul, let me start with you, because he had an interesting point, Ken, about racial profiling. And again, we don`t know in this particular case,

but in Philando Castile`s case, we`re looking at his record. He was pulled over 52 times for traffic stops. You can either say he`s a bad driver or

you could say that he may have been targeted. What would you do if you were defending him -- representing the family in this case?

PAUL HENDERSON, VETERAN PROSECUTOR: Well, one of the first things that I would make sure is that that family is in contact with the district

attorney`s office to make sure that they are being updated, both about the internal investigation from the police department ...


COSBY: And now, you`re hitting on the head. Wait a minute. Internal investigation and what?


COSBY: I`m a big supporter of the cops in this country. I think 99 percent do an amazing job. Why is there an internal -- how can you say that an

internal audit? This is them investigating their own.

HENDERSON: Well, they investigate themselves as well with internal investigations whenever there`s a shooting that involves death. But part of

that investigation includes prosecutors evaluating whether or not charges should be brought against that officer.

And then we don`t know if the federal government has been brought in to do their own investigation about a pattern and practice in that area against

that specific police department. So these are all the reasons why we`re not getting a lot of information about what that investigation is.


COSBY: And Paul, what`s bad though, don`t you think it looks bad, when you see that videotape and here`s the guy, according again to the girlfriend,

and she`s been on the news since, as well saying that he was saying he had a legal gun in the front, and he said, I am getting my registration and

license, which you asked me to do. If indeed that`s the case, that looks so bad for the cop.

HENDERSON: It`s beyond that. It looks horrendous, and we don`t know what that pattern and practice has been with that officer. We do know and we`re

hearing information about how many times he had been stopped, and you know, one of the guests just said, listen, as an African-American growing up in

this country, you have a lens (ph) and you have your own experiences.

I, myself, have been arrested eight times, I guess. Not that I have done anything, but you know, these are the experiences that you have as you go

through life, and I think now, while we`re having this conversation, you know, reasonable minds can differ about these race disparities in the

criminal justice system, but we have to have these conversations in order to move forward.


COSBY: Rita Cosby here, in for Nancy Grace. Let`s go to Andrew Lee, host KTLK AM 1130. Andrew, what`s the latest that we know about the officers

involved in the Philando Castile case?

ANDREW LEE, KTLK AM 1130 HOST: The officers, as per standard protocol, have been placed on paid administrative leave while the investigation is

ongoing. It`s the Minnesota Department or Bureau of Criminal Apprehension that is leading the investigation although we do expect the Department of


The attorneys who are representing the officer involved in the shooting, has come out and started to sort of refute some of the narratives that have

been out there, specifically saying that race had nothing to do with the shooting. It was the presence of the weapon, and the displaying of the

weapon, according to the attorney for the officer that led to the shooting.

COSBY: And of course, we`ll find out through surveillance video, we understand there may be some. Let`s go to the attorneys. Let`s go to Kenya

Johnson, also Yale Galanter. Let me also bring prosecutor Paul Henderson and also Ken Williams.

Let`s start with you, Yale. It does not look bad -- it does not look good, rather, for this cop, especially the one on that side. He worked with this

other partner, so they know each other well, too. But how do you defend the guy, right now when what you see on the video does not look good, Yale?

YALE GALANTER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, his attorney is starting to do that. You know, you start putting out in the media whether or not the victim did

any sort of movements towards the gun, and that`s really the incendiary source ...


COSBY: Are we ever going to know that, Yale? Are we ever going to know that?

GALANTER: well, sure, you`ll know it, because there are forensics, they`ll take witness statements. There`s film. And you try and put the timeline

together. But when a police officer pulls somebody over, and there`s a weapon in the car, it heightens everything to such a degree ...


COSBY: And Yale ...

GALANTER: ... adrenaline starts going ...


COSBY: Absolutely.

GALANTER: ... and you`re it`s a bad situation to begin with.

COSBY: You`re hitting on a good point, because -- and again, they also don`t know what was happening before the tape.

But Kenya, we`re hearing that it`s all about the gun. But if the guy says, look, I have a legal gun, and then suddenly you shoot him? I mean, if it

turns out that indeed this story is correct that we`re seeing, that doesn`t look good.

KENYA JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the key is that officers must show that to use deadly force, they have to be in fear of imminent danger. So,

we have to find out exactly what the officer is saying happened that caused him to believe that he was facing immediate threat.

COSBY: Do you think we`ll know?

JOHNSON: We can`t read a book backwards, so we have got to wait until we get the entire picture.

COSBY: yeah. Let`s hope that we do. Guys, thank you, everybody.

And we remember American hero Army Staff Sergeant Daniel Scheile, 37 years old from Antioch, California. He was awarded the Bronze Star and the Purple

Heart. He enjoyed holiday dinners, watching cartoons with his kids, and riding his Harley. He leaves behind his parents, Ronald and Gay; his

sisters, Sam (ph), Trina and Carroll; his brother Ronald, Jr.; his widow, Jennifer and daughters Kelli and Marissa. Daniel Scheile, an American hero.

And thanks to all our guests and also especially to all of you at home for being with us tonight. I`m Rita Cosby. "Forensic Files" is coming up next.