Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Police Shootings Update; Moving Dallas Memorial; Beautiful Boston Girl Found Brutally Murdered; Search for Twelve Year Old in DC; Shocking Video Captures Moment 4-Year-Old Kidnapped. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired July 12, 2016 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PAT LALAMA, HLN HOST: Breaking news tonight. Heartbreak at an interfaith service honoring five fallen police officers ambushed in Dallas. It`s all

after the recent shootings of two black men gunned down by police on video. Tonight, new details, new evidence, and talks of lawsuits.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t understand why people think it`s OK to kill police officers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Saw another officer get shot right there in front of me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My brother loved his country and his community.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just can`t wrap my mind around it. It`s just so unreal!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t understand why black men die in custody, and they`re forgotten the next day.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is bigger than Philando. This is bigger than all of us. So today, I just want justice for everyone!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Just weeks before a beautiful Boston girl set to celebrate her 19th birthday, she`s found brutally murdered in a parking garage. Does

surveillance video show the killer?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Blanca Lainez, a young woman brutally slain just two weeks before her 19th birthday.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s sad that a 16-year-old would commit such an act.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lainez`s body was found by a construction worker in a garage behind a home on Princeton Street. Sources say the victim was face

down, badly beaten and bleeding.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Shocking video captures the moment a 4-year-old California girl is kidnapped from a store in front of her terrified mother.

Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama of "Crime Watch Daily," in for Nancy Grace tonight.

We begin with the tragedies all across America, two black men shot at the hands of police officers and five Dallas police officers ambushed,

apparently in retaliation.

Straight out to CNN correspondent Ed Lavandera on the scene in Dallas. Ed, today a moving interfaith service today for those fallen Dallas police

officers. Give us a sense -- I mean, I`m kind of hoping that there`s some feeling of hope for all the tortured souls relative to all these tragedies.

Are you getting that sense today?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think that`s going to take some time to kind of really assess and get our -- the full bearings on. You

know, this was President Obama`s chance and it`s not his first chance to do this. Essentially, someone described him as the consoler-in-chief in these

moments after these kinds of tragedies.

President Obama spoke today about -- and it`s a theme that he started picking up on a few days ago, this idea that the country is not as divided

as many people feel it is, given the news of the last week. So he`s really hitting home at that theme.

It`ll be interesting to see how people react to that as they kind of take it in and they process that from what the president said today.

LALAMA: You know, Chief Brown comes from an unusual perspective. He has understood from all avenues the essence of this issue, and I believe he did

speak today. And let`s hear from him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE CHIEF: We all know sometimes, life`s hates (ph) and troubles can make you wish you were born in another time and place.

But you can bet your lifetime (ph) that -- and twice its double that God knew exactly where he wanted you to be placed.

So make sure when you say you`re not in it, but not of it, you`re not helping to make this earth a place sometimes called hell. Change your

words into truth, and then change that truth into love, and maybe your children`s grandchildren and their great, great grandchildren will tell

them, I`ll be loving you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Wow. Really, really profound ceremony. I can`t imagine, as they honor those fallen five but address the issues that are permeating our

nation. And with that, let`s get the latest on those shootings that have caused so much of the strife in America, socially, politically and every

possible way.

Justice Freiman, can you tell us what is the latest today? Let`s start with Louisiana.

JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE producer (via telephone): Absolutely. Well, we`ve got a few new things developing. The Department of Criminal Justice

is leading a criminal investigation into the incident in Baton Rouge involving Alton Sterling. He was shot outside of the convenience store.

The state is also investigating that, and the local district attorney did recuse from the case citing possible conflicts of interest.

[20:05:08]We also know that the owner of convenience store is actually suing the city and the police, claiming that he was illegally taken into

custody and that his security system was confiscated.

LALAMA: All right, well, that`s some interesting information. Kate Delaney, investigative reporter, syndicated radio host of "America

Tonight."

KATE DELANEY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Yes. Pat, I`ll tell you what. What we found out is that El Centro College really was ground zero, if you will,

for Micah Johnson, the shooter. As he was on the second floor -- he shot his way through the doors, if the doors were locked to the college, got to

the second floor, and then ultimately, that`s where police cornered him.

And for hours, they went back and forth negotiating. And there were 60 people in that building. There were people that were huddled in the

basement. There were some that were crammed in a janitor`s closet. And they were going through this whole ordeal for those hours, not knowing

whether they should move or what was going to happen, which makes sense now as to why they used the robot bomb to take him out, afraid that the

building ultimately would come down, that more hell would rain on those people who were huddled for fear.

LALAMA: Well, and on that issue then, now, you`re speaking of Dallas and the person responsible for the killing of those five officers -- let`s go

back to Justin Freiman and talk about that robot. What do we know about that robot and its capability in that case?

FREIMAN: Absolutely. We know that robot is actually from the police department. It cost them $155,000. And it was carrying about a pound of

C-4, which goes for about $20. And that`s what actually had exploded and that`s what actually took out the shooter.

LALAMA: Very, very interesting. And you want to -- you know, I want to go to Ken Williams, use of force, police reform expert. There`s a lot of

controversy about the use of robots, people talking about now we`re getting into military strategies and tactics on the street.

I`m kind of seeing this a little bit differently. This is a way to potentially save lives and assessing the situation, perhaps without having

to resort to deadly force. How do you see it?

KEN WILLIAMS, USE OF FORCE/POLICE REFORM EXPERT: I mean, the use of robots I`m sure in the field overseas has been used to protect and save troops`

lives. So police officers using robots is not new. The use of a robot to inflict, you know, harm to somebody is not new. I think everyone is still

talking about the order to kill somebody is probably the newest thing that everyone`s talking about today.

LALAMA: All right, now jumping around, let`s get back to the two shootings that we need to assess and getting back again to -- to Baton Rouge. I want

to go back to Justin Freiman. Tell us more about the search warrant and what we know is coming out of that search warrant.

FREIMAN: Absolutely. So that search warrant actually giving more details of what police say happened on the scene. The police say that the victim

was not listening to their commands, that they then had to try to take him down, and at that point -- at one point, they used a taser. They also saw

a gun sticking out of his pocket and claimed that he was reaching for the gun, and that is when they opened fire.

LALAMA: All right, now, switching to Minneapolis -- and this is another important case. Andrew Lee, what is the latest on the suspect who was shot

in this case, and what led police to stop him in the first place, Mr. Castile?

ANDREW LEE, WTKL (via telephone): The police are saying now that the stop was actually in response to a description of a nearby gas station robbery.

Initially, according to the girlfriend, they were told that they were stopped for a broken taillight.

LALAMA: All right, so he is saying, or at least his girlfriend -- he is no longer with us, as we know. His girlfriend is saying that he alerted the

police officer -- that she alerted the police officer that there was, in fact, a weapon. He was reaching for his wallet to give identification.

The cop perceived it as reaching for a gun. Am I correct? That is the scenario as we know it.

LEE: That appears to be the scenario as we know it. According to the girlfriend, the -- and it`s not clear whether the girlfriend or Castile

informed the officer. But according to the girlfriend, they volunteered the information to the officer that they did carry a firearm.

And it`s significant that they used that word, firearm, because that indicates some level of training, which would be consistent with having a

permit to carry. But the officer then instructed him to give him his ID -- again, according to the girlfriend -- at which point, that`s when the shots

were fired.

LALAMA: Judge Glenda Hatchett, thank you so much for being with us. My understanding, your honor, is that you will be repping the family of Mr.

Castile. What are you hoping for? What are you looking for in that suit?

[20:10:12]JUDGE GLENDA HATCHETT, CASTILE FAMILY REPRESENTATIVE: Well, we want justice to be done. And there will be a two-pronged piece to this, of

course, a civil case, which I`ve been retained to deal with, but also there will be the criminal prosecution -- possibly a criminal prosecution. And

of course, I have no responsibility for that, but will be looking very closely at the decision as to whether, first, he`ll be prosecuted, and how

that case might be handled.

But the family is very concerned, and one of the things I`m sure that all of us have seen, these powerful interviews that Ms. Castile has done. Now,

I am in awe of her and just very grateful for her strength and her courage, her tenacity.

And one of the things that she`s made very clear to me is that this case has to be bigger than her son, that she wants to see a national standard in

place -- I think that Hillary Clinton has talked about that -- and that she wants to see reform in a way that this doesn`t keep happening.

LALAMA: Back to Justin Freiman. Justin, there is no DOJ investigation in this case yet, correct?

FREIMAN: That`s correct.

LALAMA: Do you anticipate one? Does anyone anticipate one happening?

FREIMAN: That`s going to be up to them in -- at the end.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[20:16:02]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots fired, code 3 (INAUDIBLE) radio. Officer down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t understand why people think it`s OK to kill police officers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These five heroes weren`t just outstanding police officers. They were fathers, sons and husbands.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: You know, I want to go back to Judge Glenda Hatchett for a quick second. We were talking about you representing Mr. Castile`s family. A

lot of people believe that doing the civil cases before we`ve actually had a sense of what happened, before the criminal justice system is allowed to

do what it does -- that`s putting the cart before the horse. Is there really an advantage to doing this now and not waiting until we know all the

facts of this criminal case?

HATCHETT: We shall see. We shall see. I`ll have to make that determination. I`ve recently been retained, but there will be at some

point -- and I -- you make a great point, there at some point will be a civil case that will be filed.

LALAMA: Why do you want to be involved in this, your honor?

HATCHETT: I will tell you that I have sons, I have young African-American men as sons. And I went to bed one night watching the tapes in Baton Rouge

only to wake up the next day -- I actually didn`t turn on the news that morning, went to an early breakfast meeting and thought, This couldn`t be

happening again.

And I`ll tell you what really, really made me committed to doing this was after the initial conversation on the phone with his mother, with Valerie

Castile, about her commitment to this and talking about what kind of man he was before he was killed.

And I feel very, very passionately that something has to be done, and I hope to be able to be the person that brings not only success in this case

but also helps us to lift this dialogue in a way that we move from rhetoric to reality that makes a difference and that we don`t want Philando to just

be another statistic.

(CROSSTALK)

LALAMA: Go ahead. Finish. You`re at a place in your life?

HATCHETT: No, I was just going to quickly -- (INAUDIBLE) quickly say that I -- I count it a privilege that I am able to be able to take this kind of

case and to be able to leverage my experience and to be able to do this.

LALAMA: Thank you.

And let`s get down to some of the true emotional issues. Lori Fridell, associate professor of criminology, University of South Florida -- your

expertise has to do with trying to get to the issue of race on the part of a police officer before he or she can even assess the crime.

It`s an interesting concept, but it`s premised on the idea that so much race is infused in the decisions that a cop makes. I work with police

officers all the time. So many of them tell me they`re not thinking race when their life is in danger. How -- how are you telling us that race does

play a part when they`re making those split-second decisions about who`s coming after them?

LORI FRIDELL, ASSOC. PROF. OF CRIMINOLOGY, UNIV. OF S. FLORIDA: And Pat, it goes to what`s called implicit biases. And implicit and explicit biases

do share some characteristics. We categorize people based on race, dress, gender, and then we link them to the stereotypes associated to their

groups, and this can impact presumptions and behavior.

Now, with explicit bias, the (INAUDIBLE) based on animus and hostility. They`re overt, on the table. The person might even tell about their

stereotypes and hostility.

[20:20:00]With implicit biases, these can manifest outside of our conscious awareness even in individuals who at the conscious level reject biases,

stereotypes and prejudice.

LALAMA: Paul Henderson, veteran prosecutor, a lot of people say how can we decide based on people`s cellphone videos and even bodycams that a cop was

going after someone because they are African-American?

Are people also forgetting that there is a real danger out there and that these people make split -- I`ve been in the deadly force simulators with

the cops here in LA. It is frightening to imagine the couple of seconds that these men and women have to make decisions about what`s threatening to

them.

Why do we assume, why do many assume right away that there is a racial component to what happened? I`m not saying there isn`t. I`m just saying,

a lot of times, there`s a rush to judgment on it.

PAUL HENDERSON, VETERAN PROSECUTOR: Well, oftentimes, people have their own experiences. You know, like I say, I`m an African-American man. I

have my own experiences with law enforcement, even though I`m a prosecutor and I`m an attorney, but I certainly have been stopped many times. I

certainly have engaged and encountered the police many times, and I have my own opinions about whether or not those stops and encounters were valid.

But this is exactly why we need that data. This is exactly why you`re hearing the national conversation take place right now involving data and

the dissemination of data tied to body cameras, so that we can get that information out to communities so that they can confirm or deny whether or

not there are pattern and practices that are inappropriate for communities of color involving police departments. That`s exactly why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[20:25:55]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Slow down! He`s in the damn building right there!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five officers were killed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officer down. Officer down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to make sure there`s nobody else out there that had something to do with this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officer down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Back out to Ken Williams, use of force/police reform expert. I have to tell you, just a few weeks ago, talking to Los Angeles County

sheriff Jim McDonell (ph) -- we were talking about bodycams. Sheriff`s department doesn`t use them here. The LAPD does. He said, never forget

bodycams do not tell a whole story. However much you want to believe there it is, they don`t. And really, nor does cellphone footage.

How important is any of this? And do we make conclusions, draw conclusions, particularly the media, based on what`s out there before we

ever go to trial on a case?

WILLIAMS: I mean, I think we need to go and have a little bit of common sense here. If there was a robbery that occurred at a bank and

surveillance video showed a robber`s face and they hold a gun and they took money from the bank, we wouldn`t be questioning the video. It would speak

for itself.

And it`s also subject to interpretation. I don`t think the robber`s going to be able to explain that he meant to, you know, take out a loan and that

was him receiving that loan. He committed a robbery.

At the same time, with respect to data, I think we need to look at 1968, the Kerner commission report, which is very explicit in the data that it

collected, 15,000 people interviewed back then, which demonstrated through its findings that the nation was having a serious problem.

The data itself said that America had a choice. It was moving towards unequal justice, one white, one black. And at the same time, it also

defined law enforcement historically being used to control black people.

So when we look at people who are upset, that are looking like me, my color, and a lot of them are men, one in three black men have been

incarcerated today. So we can`t overlook the data.

LALAMA: I want to bring in Eric Johnson, Jeff Gold, defense attorneys, Paul Henderson, veteran prosecutor, and Judge Hatchett.

You know, we`re going to find out now that because the search warrant is explaining in the Sterling case, according to the cops, they saw a gun.

They saw a man they thought was reaching for a gun.

Also in the case of Mr. Castile, they knew that there was a weapon. They were told that there was a weapon. His girlfriend says he was just going

for the wallet. This is going to be he said/she said/they all said. How do we get through this, and how does it change anything in America? Who

wants to begin?

ERIC JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think first off, as far as the police officers in the Castile case, I think that their situation is going

to be much, much stronger than the one involving Mr. Sterling. In the Castile case, there was a possibility that he may have felt for his safety

because Mr. Castile never said exactly where the gun was in the car.

So the officer would not have known exactly where he was reaching for, which may be a reason that unless there`s a situation which absolutely

mandates it, there was no need for Mr. Castile to say anything about the gun in the car because that only elevated the situation where most time, as

a black man, one in three times, you only have a 33 percent chance of having a good encounter with the police. You may encounter the racist cop.

You encounter the overly scared cop, or you may encounter the good cop.

So there`s no need to inform him that you have a gun to put fuel on what is already possibly a stressful situation.

LALAMA: And so you`re blaming him for being forthworth (ph) and being open about the fact that he was -- had a permit to carry a gun and he alerted

the officer that the gun was in the car? I mean, somehow...

JOHNSON: I`m not blaming him.

LALAMA: ... he should be penalized for that?

JOHNSON: He should not be penalized for it, and therefore, he should go -- the officer still will have to defend his actions. However, the officer`s

fear is something that may reduce this from possible murder to reckless endangerment of a person.

All I`m saying is, as far as Mr. Castile, because as for people going forward, black make like myself going forward, you can`t determine what the

officer`s intentions are when he comes up to the car. So you telling him that, even though you may think it`s good civilly tends to have a

possibility of aggravating the situation further, so I`m not blaming Mr. Castile, I`m just trying to provide guidance for people going forward.

LALAMA: What difference, Mr. Gold?

(CROSSTALK)

LALAMA: Mr. Gold? Mr. Gold?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I absolutely disagree with that.

GOLD: Look, these individuals did have weapons. Most times when we see individuals shot and an officer saying he reached for my weapon. So, in

this case, number one, there were weapons. And number two, just like Pat, like you said as a layman, I`ve been through those courses as well.

The split second that in those courses you get killed are in the officers` minds. So I think we have to give them the benefit of the doubt, although I

absolutely agree that race played an inherent part inside their psyche. Still, these individuals did have guns. We have to see how it plays out

over time.

LALAMA: Mr. Henderson, are you saying that no matter what the split second -- no, not you, but the argument that no matter what the split second is,

somewhere in there is the oh, my gosh, I`m dealing with a black man and that plays in to the reaction, the spontaneous reaction?

HENDERSON: Exactly. And that absolutely may play into it. But the standards that the courts are going to be using is whether or not, either

that officer was in fear or a member of the public was in fear because there are people around as well. And so that`s the standard that the courts

are going to be evaluating when they`re investigating these cases.

LALAMA: No, no, no. No, no, no. The standard is, is it reasonable? Was he in reasonable fear? You can`t just be in fear. Is this reasonable ...

(CROSSTALK)

HENDERSON: I agree.

LALAMA: ... under the circumstances? And so ...

(CROSSTALK)

HENDERSON: Right. Either for himself or for the public. And that`s might be the distinction and race colors that distinction.

[20:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LALAMA: A beautiful Boston girl found brutally murdered in a parking garage just weeks before her birthday. What does surveillance video reveal?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Boston Police swarm the crime scene. An old garage in East Boston where construction workers made a horrible discovery. The body

of 18-year-old Blanca Lainez, she has been beaten and stabbed to death.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lainez`s body was found by a construction worker in a garage behind a home on Princeton Street.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: A horrifying story. Straight out to Sandy Shack, talk show host with WMEX. Sandy, take us through the tragic case from the beginning,

briefly as you can, but with all the important points.

SANDY SHACK, WMEX TALK SHOW HOST: Well, construction workers arrived at 54 Princeton Street. They were there to make renovations and their equipment

was kept in the garage, and they were horrified when they discovered a badly beaten and bloody body on a pile of 2 by 4s in the garage.

So they called the police, who responded immediately. They`re very proud of the investigation that they did. Bill Evans and the district attorney here

and they set out to examine all the security video that`s in the neighborhood.

There`s quite extensive camera usage in that neighborhood which is interesting. And they reviewed all the security video and they saw somebody

who meets the description of the gentleman, the kid actually, the 16-year- old, who they eventually arrested, Jose Hernandez.

But they have a security video of someone who meets Hernandez`s description in a hoodie, leaving Hernandez`s and making his way down his street to

Princeton Street where the body was eventually discovered on the night that poor Blanca Lainez was murdered.

And they see him in the video, he`s going down the street, he comes back to the intersection, then disappears down the street for about a half an hour.

He was seen come back to the intersection, puts something in his pocket and then runs back to his house, a few doors down.

So, they had the footage. Then what happened is on June 30th, on a completely unrelated issue, he was arrested, Jose Hernandez was arrested

for delinquency and for carrying a deadly weapon, he had a 9-inch knife.

He is a 16-year-old kid. He was a freshman at high school. And so he was arrested and fingerprinted. And as it turned out, they had found a palm

print, a bloody palm print on one of the 2 x 4s that was in the garage where Blanca`s body was discovered.

They were able to actually lift one fingerprint, enough to be able to send it through the system, the AFIS system, the Automated Fingerprint

Identification System. And because they had just arrested him and taken his fingerprints, it came back as a match for Jose Hernandez. So that was the

key. That was the big key. There were other evidence but that was the big one.

(CROSSTALK)

LALAMA: Yeah. And it was really incredible police work. Michael Christian, Nancy Grace producer, it`s unclear to me what kind of relationship they

had, these two, but there is evidence that at least it was through social media. Briefly tell me what we know about their relationship.

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yeah, that`s right, Pat. According to authorities, they had an extensive relationship on the phone.

They have examined her cell phone and there`s lots of messages from him to her. Now, what`s fascinating in terms of this case is, at least for a

couple of weeks before she died, he had apparently been threatening her on the phone, leaving messages threatening her and that may have led to her

death.

LALAMA: Dr. William Morrone, Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner, Toxicologist, lots of stuff for the police to work with and I might add,

prosecutors as well. What`s significant to you about this?

[20:40:00] DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Here`s the most important thing. Fingerprints and palm prints have been undeniably valuable

for a hundred years. And the second thing is those stab wounds can be matched to the type of knife, because there`s double-bladed knives, there`s

single-bladed knives and then when you get up to the sheath and the handle, they all make specific marks.

So, they`ll be able to trace the weapon, they`ll be able to trace the prints and then when you look at blunt force injuries, they`ll be able to

say, you know, somebody so tall and such height delivered this kind of injury and you`ll have to look at the stature. A lot of information here.

LALAMA: We need your help tonight in two missing cases. First, 17-year-old Iowa girl, Katelyn Thompson who goes missing from her Cedar Rapids home

Friday afternoon. She`s 5`5", 110 pounds with blue eyes and brown hair. The tipline is Cedar Rapids Police at 319-286-5491. And the search in

Washington, D.C. for 12-year-old Dwayne Bean, last seen on Texas Avenue wearing blue sweatpants, a white tank top and white Nike`s. The tipline is

Metropolitan Police Department at 202-727-9099.

[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The district attorney`s office said surveillance footage shows the teen walking to the crime scene just moments before the

last activity on Lainez`s phone. But it was DNA evidence that led them to arrest the teen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s unfortunate for the family and for the youth that this kid just threw his life away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: I want to go out to Ari Zoldan technology analyst and CEO of Quantum Networks. Well, how crime analysis has changed so much with

technology. We have got here in this case alone, we`ve got surveillance tapes, we`ve got text messages, we`ve got social media, we`ve got voice

mail. It really has changed the way we do police scene and police analysis and investigation in America, has it not?

ARI ZOLDAN, TECHNOLOGY ANALYST: It really has. And really this is, if you think about it, this is the genesis of it. The evolution of the internet

really has only happened in the past 10, 15 years. And in terms of the big data, the data that`s available in terms of, you know, we talked about the

four video footage, people are communicating via Snapchat and Facebook and Instagram. The one that you know that`s out there that`s really an

extension of us is our digital DNA, if you will. It is all available to forensic people and as well to prosecutors.

LALAMA: And gives people new arguments in the court of law, I might add. And now, I want to go to clinical psychologist, Chloe Carmichael. Chloe,

sadly, the kind of violence inflicted in this case was so heinous. It wasn`t just bang, bang, I`ll take your wallet. What does that say to you

when someone is beaten and stabbed and it looks so, so vicious?

CHLOE CARMICHAEL, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, vicious is exactly the right word to describe it. Obviously, this person has had some terrible

experiences. I know that because he is from El Salvador, a lot of people might try to attribute it to some of the violence that this war-torn

country has experienced. But I actually think that would be a terrible disservice (ph) to El Salvador. I think that this person is suffering from

some serious mental illnesses.

LALAMA: Paul Henderson, veteran prosecutor, served that firm, serious mental illnesses that the prosecutor -- by the way, I believe he will be

tried as an adult because that`s what the state demands. Serious mental illnesses ...

HENDERSON: Oh, absolutely.

(CROSSTALK)

LALAMA: Serious mental illnesses or a hard, cold-blooded, vicious murderer?

HENDERSON: I think the result is going to be charged with murder and obviously because of heinous nature of the charges, he`s likely obviously

to be charged as an adult.

What`s interesting, though, is that because he was a juvenile when he committed the crime, he cannot face a death penalty. So what I think that

you`ll likely see as a result of this is life without the possibility of parole based on the nature of these crimes in and of itself because of what

he did and because of the heinous nature.

And interestingly enough, I think the jury is going to want to, and expects now, as a prosecutor to present all of this information. They expect you to

walk into that room and have some DNA evidence. They expect you to have video information. They expect you to have cell phone records and pings

from the cell tower showing you how this defendant led up to this crime and tying him actually to the actual incident.

But in this case with evidence like that, it`s not looking very good and I think that`s what we can expect from this case, life without the

possibility of parole for this defendant. And unfortunately, that won`t bring this life back.

LALAMA: Of course. And, Eric Johnson and Jeff Gold, let`s hear what you have to say about that if you were to be the one to have to represent the

16-year-old boy who looks like the evidence, be it circumstantial, be it direct, be it whatever. I mean, this is not looking good. Who wants to take

it?

GOLD: I`ll start, Pat. With broad brush, it doesn`t look good, but we don`t really know the extent of that palm or fingerprint. It seemed like it

was right on the edge of the acceptable amount of points. We don`t know if the knife matches, as our coroner suggested it may, but we don`t know that,

and we don`t really know the exact nature of all the conversations on social media that took place.

So in a broad sense, yeah, it looks bad for the young individual but we just don`t know all those details yet and I think there`s still plenty of

room to see whether or not the state can prove it.

On top of that, we have the idea he may have mental illness. When you have that much personal contact with stabbing, etc, it`s more heat of passion

than anything else. So it`s likely that even if he is guilty, he might have this because of his age, seen as a second-degree type of murder rather than

a first-degree murder.

[20:50:00] JOHNSON: And also the fingerprint only proves that he may have been at the location at some point in time after she had started bleeding.

That does not prove in any way that he committed the injuries that caused her death or was part of that at all.

LALAMA: But Michael Christian, Nancy Grace producer, isn`t it true that he had left threatening messages on her voicemail? There was some sort of

contentiousness, something that really made this guy mad.

CHRISTIAN: Yeah, that`s what we have been told by authorities that has been reported, that he did make threats and left them on her voicemail.

LALAMA: We`re not giving up in the search for a Kentucky mother of five. Crystal Rogers, still missing without a trace one year later. Rogers`

maroon 2007 Chevy Impala found abandoned on the Bluegrass Parkway with a flat tire and keys in the ignition.

Her boyfriend, Brooks Houck, named a prime suspect but no charges. Please help. The tipline is Bardstown Police Department at 502-348-3211.

And in Florida, the search for missing 15-year-old Kimberly Paknik, last seen July 6 in Lake Worth. She was wearing a yellow hoodie and army camo

shorts. The tipline is Palm Beach County Sheriff`s. 561-688-3400.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, CNN HEADLINE NEWS HOST: Crime-victim-turned-crime-fighter, Hailey Dean, is back in "Murder in the Courthouse."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The unstoppable prosecutor digs in to track down a killer, but could she wind up the next victim? Find out in the third book

in Nancy`s best-selling series.

GRACE: Portions of proceeds go to Help Find Missing Children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Preorder your copy now on Amazon, barnesandnoble.com and more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LALAMA: Shocking video captures the moment of 4-year-old California girl is kidnapped from a store in front of her terrified mother.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Security video shows a young mother come into a cell phone store carrying an infant while her 4-year-old plays with the candy

machine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But he did, and quickly grabbed the little girl by the arm. The mom ran after him. The mom and another customer ran out and

the girl managed to break free. Clinging to her mother`s leg.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Tom Perumean, investigative reporter, is anyone safe in America today? This was what, 2:30 in the afternoon, broad daylight in a cellular

store.

TOM PERUMEAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: And this took place in Victorville, California. Now, this has been a troubled community for some time. They

have a lot of drug crime going on up in Victorville. Victorville, by the way, is a third of the way between Los Angeles and Las Vegas.

This was just a couple days after the Fourth of July when this incident took place, and once again, you`re absolutely right. It was right out in

broad daylight in this business. The suspect on this, Terry Ransom, 24- year-old, he`s had a number of run-ins between 2011 and 2015 with authorities whose family says it is drugs, he is hooked on drugs and that`s

what drove his behavior that day in that attempted kidnapping.

LALAMA: Matt Zarrell, Nancy Grace producer, we know he has five kids, correct? Do we know anything about this guy? Why was he there? What`s his

history?

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: We don`t know. As Tom mentioned, he does have a criminal history. But his aunt has said that he is the loving

father of five children. And the family is all claiming that it was drugs that caused his problem. There are reports after he ran away from the scene

he was actually sitting in the middle of the street, laughing, as good Samaritans were trying to track him down and tackle him before cops

arrived.

LALAMA: Well, that`s the only good part about this darn story is that apparently, there was a barber shop next door, something like that where

all these citizens said hey, we`re going after him, and they did, correct, Matt?

ZARRELL: Yes. There were a bunch of -- you see the woman actually in front of the mother in line also takes off after him. The owner of the store also

ran for him. They tackled him and held him. Police took him into custody when they arrived.

LALAMA: Chloe Carmichael, I am trying to understand, if I`m a little girl, I`m 4 years old, will this have a lifelong impact on me?

CARMICHEAL: Well, that`s a great question. And the lifelong impact, I think, really has yet to be decided by how this case eventually gets

settles. Because although the little girl was abducted, she actually had an empowering ending so far, which is that she was able to break free. The

bystanders intervened and the police stopped him.

Now, if the police let him off because he was on drugs that he chose to take, that, I think, would be the most traumatizing end of the story. If

her attacker was not held accountable.

LALAMA: Thankfully the child was not hurt. But very quickly, Eric and Jeff, Ii just got to ask, are you going to be doing that, he was under the

influence, he hasn`t done this kind of thing before, give him another shot? Come on.

GOLD: Yes, of course you are. Because there is some evidence that he had just been in the hospital for drug-related issues before this occurred. And

he was in the middle of the street, laughing. So there is enough to start playing with it, but kidnapping is a horrible offense.

JOHNSON: I mean, think of it to find out a way to mitigate the charges but I mean, definitely, he was in the wrong in this situation.

LALAMA: Yeah. That poor family, well, I`m just glad they`re safe.

We honor American heroes, groups of opposing protesters working together to bring down walls after deadly police shootings stir the country. Black

Lives Matter and a counter-protest group finding common ground -- Alleluia!-- on the streets of Dallas. Hugging each other. Praying together.

Listening and comforting each other to make a difference using dialogue. Words, everybody. Solutions, instead of violence. Tonight, they are

American heroes.

Thank you to our guests and to you at home for being with us. Thanks, Nancy, for the opportunity to sit in your seat. I`m Pat LaLama, Crime Watch

Daily. "Forensic Files" coming up next.

[21:00:00]

END