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Nancy Grace
Ominous Clues in Disappearance of Colorado Woman; Unarmed Therapist Shot by Police
Aired July 21, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, the mystery deepens surrounding the disappearance of a gorgeous Denver-area woman. KMGH sources now
reporting spatter may be blood found on the headboard in the apartment belonging to 36-year-old Charlene Voight. Tonight, has a mattress, as well
as a piece of her carpeting, also gone missing?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one has seen or heard from 36-year-old Charlene Voight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) contact with her friends through social media and, you know, the fact that she just -- just disappeared...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are urging anyone with information about Charlene to call them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For everyone to please continue their support and for everyone to please keep, you know, talking about her and spreading the
word.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: An unarmed therapist, a behavioral therapist, lies flat on his back with his hands up in the air when he`s shot by police, the shrink trying to
calm down his autistic patient who has just run away from a group home when cops open fire. And it`s all caught on video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Laying in middle of the road with his hands in the air. A North Miami police officer shoots him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He asked the officer, Why did you shoot me? And the officer said, I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. The mystery deepens surrounding the disappearance of a gorgeous young Denver-area woman, KMGH sources now reporting spatter that
may be blood has been found on the headboard in the apartment belonging to 36-year-old Charlene Voight. Well, in the last hours, has a mattress and a
piece of carpeting gone missing, as well, from her apartment?
Straight out to KMGH affiliate reporter Jaclyn Allen joining us there on the scene in Denver. Jaclyn, thank you for being with us. I find that
very, very unusual that she goes missing and a piece of her carpet and her mattress goes missing, as well.
But I want to take it from the beginning. When did her family first realize something was wrong?
JACLYN ALLEN, KMGH CORRESPONDENT: Well, they contacted police on July 8th. They said that the last time they had seen or heard from her was June 29th.
So this has been more than three weeks now since anyone has heard from Charlene Voight.
GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute! Jaclyn, Jaclyn, that doesn`t sound right! So she`s missing three weeks. But isn`t it true, Jaclyn -- I
want to back up the timeline because, you know, Jaclyn, that`s where every investigation starts, with a timeline.
Now, this all started unraveling over July the 4th, right?
ALLEN: That`s right. You know, she posted frequently on social media. She contacted her family almost daily. I talked to her brother and her
sister. They say she sort of fell off the face of the earth. The last time anyone heard from her was on June 29th. Why, you know, the police
weren`t contacted until July 8th is not clear. It might have been because it was a holiday weekend.
GRACE: Well, I think I know. Yes, Jaclyn, it`s my understanding -- Jaclyn Allen is joining us there on the scene from Denver, from KMGH -- that they
knew she had a long weekend ahead. She has just graduated, went back to school to Polytech to get her landscaping, horticultural degree. She moved
to town.
ALLEN: That`s right.
GRACE: And she had finally had...
(CROSSTALK)
ALLEN: ... just moved to Littleton.
GRACE: Yes, and she was going to have...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... that she was gone and didn`t answer the phone because she though, Hey, maybe she went out of town. Maybe she went to the beach.
Maybe she`s on a trip with the boyfriend, so everything`s fine. But then the following workday -- then what happened, Jaclyn?
ALLEN: Well, the parents called police. They said, Something is wrong. We hear from her almost every day. We haven`t -- no one`s heard from her
in about a week. She`s not posting on social media. And police started to investigate.
And that`s when things started to get very suspicious. Police actually found her car abandoned about a block away from the apartment where she was
staying.
GRACE: That is the lot that Jaclyn`s talking about. Hey, guys, listen to the police commander right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, she was very family-oriented and stayed in contact with her family, her parents and her sister on a very regular
basis, and stayed in contact with her friends through social media. And you know, the fact she just disappeared became about the sexual assault
allegations, you know, by way of us contacting and investigating Charlene`s disappearance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Also with me, Candace Trunzo, senior news editor with Dailymail.com. Justin, can you please show me that lot again.
Now, the lot we`re talking about -- I first thought that it was a parking lot. It`s not. Once we researched and got photos got it -- this is where
her car is found abandoned. It`s really just a little sliver of area, and it`s not really parking lot. Now, this lot is not that far away from her
apartment complex.
Let`s see the apartment complex. I`m very curious -- ah, there you go. Now, let`s see the actual apartment complex. I`m very curious as to
whether there is surveillance video, who lived around her. Who else was in that apartment complex? Who else was on her floor? Who was above her?
What`s really interesting, Candace, is say, a week goes by, the long holiday ends. The parents, who she only talks to every day one way or the
other, and her sister -- they can`t find her. Not only did she not contact them, Candace Trunzo, Dailymail.com, she can`t be found. She`s not picking
up her cell phone. She`s not returning texts. She`s not returning e- mails, messages, instant messages. That`s highly unusual, Candace.
Tell me about the state of her apartment. When police go to her apartment, Candace Trunzo, what do they find?
CANDACE TRUNZO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): Well, the first thing they found was that the mattress was missing. Then they found very suspicious
spatter on the headboard of the bed, of the frame. They`re not sure yet if it`s blood, but they suspect that it is.
And the third thing they found was that a piece of carpet had been torn out and replaced with a new piece of carpet. It didn`t match. And so there
were three things in that apartment that have police very, very concerned.
GRACE: Yes, I mean, how coincidental is it, Candace Trunzo, that she goes missing, a piece of her carpet goes missing and we believe her mattress
goes missing? You`re seeing the floor plan of her apartment, the apartment where Charlene Voight, age 36, had just moved in.
Matt Zarrell, I was doing a little research. Isn`t the university where she went -- I guess she was majoring landscaping, some type of a
horticultural division -- that`s the same place Laci Peterson went, right?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, she got a degree in landscape architecture at Cal State Polytech University just a month before she was
last seen.
GRACE: Wow. OK, take a listen to what cops are telling us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I certainly can`t tell you what was found or the facts that led us to believe that we needed to search the apartment. It was just
the facts and circumstances in this case are unique enough to where we feel concern, and it was just part of the investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, to Darrin Porcher, Ph.D., retired NYPD lieutenant, criminal justice expert. I want to talk to you about that narrow statement that you
just heard from the commander.
Of course, Darrin, they go to the apartment. There`s absolutely nothing wrong with them going to the apartment and effecting a search. And they
were right. I mean, now there are attacks on the police that, Why did you go to her apartment? Of course they went to her apartment, Darrin. Why
not?
DARRIN PORCHER, FMR. NYPD LIEUTENANT: Well, Nancy, you know, based on your prior experience as a prosecutor, that surely he`s invoked his absolute
right to counsel. There`s no rush. And what we also have to take into consideration, that the police department will have a lot of info...
GRACE: Darrin, I want to get back to the question I originally posed. I`m going to throw that to Matt Zarrell. Matt, there`s argument that the
police should not have gone to her apartment and searched. That is ridiculous, Matt. You always start every investigation at home.
Let`s see the inside, the floor plan of her apartment. When she`s not answering the phone, when she`s not responding to her own family, the first
place they should go is her apartment, Matt.
ZARRELL: Yes, and it`s not just that, Nancy, but the car was found abandoned within a block of the apartment. So even if the car was found in
a random location, authorities are going to do a search of a radius at least a couple miles around that car just to look for evidence, and the
apartment would be in that range. So naturally, they`re going to search there regardless whether she lived there or not.
GRACE: And I would argue, Candace Trunzo, senior news editor, Dailymail.com, that the whole investigation starts where we believe she may
have been last. Now, the fact her car is found somewhere else, that does not negate the fact that cops know, at some point, before she goes missing,
she was at her apartment. And that hunch proved to be correct.
Candace, what`s interesting to me, following up on what Matt just said, the logic would be that someone killed her at that apartment and moved her car.
Why? Because the car is found abandoned close to the apartment. Does that make sense to you?
TRUNZO: Yes, it does. Absolutely. I mean, the car was not very far from the apartment. There were certainly signs in the apartment that there was
foul play. I mean, you have a headboard with spatter on it, possibly, probably blood. You have carpet that was removed from the floor and
replaced with another piece of carpet. You know, these are -- no mattress on the bed. These are very suspicious things.
GRACE: Well, not only that, Candace Trunzo -- not only are they suspicious, but you know, Candace, from all the stories that you`ve
covered, it would point to this not being a random crime because when somebody you don`t know, a stranger-on-stranger attack occurs, they don`t
take the time to cut out a piece of your carpet and then replace it with another piece of carpet.
They don`t take the time. They come into your house to break in and burgle find (ph) you and kill you, they`re not taking the time to haul your
mattress out of your apartment.
This was a cover-up, Candace. If these things are true, that the mattress was taken and the carpet was taken, this was a cover-up, in addition to a
kidnapping or worse, Candace.
TRUNZO: Absolutely. It could have been somebody that she knew. There was no forced entry into the apartment. I mean, that`s key, isn`t it?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thirty-six-year-old Charlene Voight`s family reported her missing on July 8th. It had been days since they heard from
Voight, which was unusual.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, she was very family-oriented and stayed in contact with her family, her parents and her sister, on a very regular
basis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The search surrounding this missing woman begins to deepen, the mystery as to her disappearance only leading to more questions. This 36-
year-old woman goes back to school to get her degree in landscaping at Cal Polytech. She then moves to Littleton, starting fresh. But now she`s
gone.
Her family, mom and dad, sister, become highly suspicious when days go by and not only did she fail to contact them, as she normally does on a daily
basis, she no longer is responding to texts, to e-mails, to phone calls, her car abandoned just a very short distance from her apartment that we`ve
been showing you. Here`s where her car is found.
To Jaclyn Allen, reporter with CNN affiliate KMGH -- Jaclyn, what was the state of her vehicle? What was she driving? Was it unlocked? Where were
her purse? Where were her keys? Where was her cell phone? Do we know any of that, Jaclyn?
ALLEN: Well, right now, police are staying so tight-lipped on this story. They won`t tell us any information. We asked about her cell phone. They
said, We can`t comment on that.
GRACE: You`re seeing the missing woman, Charlene Voight, 5 feet, 105 pounds, blond hair, brown eyes, her car abandoned only a block from her
apartment, possible blood found on the headboard.
Jaclyn, joining me from KMGH -- Jaclyn Allen, why do they believe the spatter found on her headboard is blood? What are sources saying?
ALLEN: Well, our investigators learned that they suspected that spatter could be blood, that they are testing it right now to find out is it blood,
who did it belong to, and of course, who did the other suspicious circumstances in that apartment, including a missing mattress, including
carpet that has been cut out that appears it was removed and then replaced with carpet that did not match.
GRACE: Exactly. Exactly. You know, Jaclyn Allen...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Go ahead, dear.
ALLEN: I spoke to neighbors who told me police were asking them if they had seen any carpet-cleaning vehicles coming into the area or any other
mysterious or suspicious activity going on around the apartment. So a lot of suspicious activity at that apartment.
GRACE: You know, that would lead me to think that someone tried to have the carpet cleaned, and when that didn`t really work out, they actually
yanked up the carpet or cut out the offensive or incriminating piece of carpet, Jaclyn Allen. That`s a crucial piece of evidence that police are
asking about carpet cleaning.
To Dr. Imran Ali, resident physician joining me out of New York. Doctor, I`ve got a question. We all know that field testing can be done. It`s
been done by the U.S. government for decades, used to get an immediate answer in the field of battle, field testing blood or DNA.
DR. IMRAN ALI, PHYSICIAN: Right.
GRACE: You know they know already whether that`s blood on the headboard. What`s the hold-up?
ALI: Absolutely. I mean, luminol has been around for ages. It reacts with hemoglobin. It`s one of the oldest things we use. And now they even
have a more -- you know, a more stronger technique called Blue Star (ph). So we can certainly find out if that substance is blood without a shadow of
a doubt.
GRACE: When you are talking about luminol and Blue Star, explain how it works.
ALI: What it does, it reacts with the iron that you find in blood, hemoglobin. Blood has hemoglobin and has iron particles. And that
substance reacts with it and it lights up under fluorescent lights, so you can easily see even microscopic amounts of blood.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one has seen or heard from 36-year-old Charlene Voight since June 29th. Detectives searched the apartment at this complex
where she lives. They also search this lot a short distance away, where they found her abandoned car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigating Charlene`s disappearance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, the mystery surrounding the disappearance of 36-year-old Charlene Voight seems to deepen. But we are also learning about her
boyfriend.
Matt Zarrell, isn`t it true that the parking lot, or the sliver of land where her car was parked coincidentally was just purchased by the
boyfriend?
ZARRELL: Yes. The previous lot owner told reporters locally that he sold it to Beier two days before Charlene was last seen.
GRACE: You know, what can you tell me, Candace Trunzo, on a more ominous note, about Jeff Beier, Charlene`s boyfriend? My concern is he is not a
suspect in this case. He is not a person of interest in this case. There they are pictured together, very much in love, apparently, had been
together on and off four (ph) years. In fact, the reason she moved to this town is to be closer to him.
What can you tell me about an alleged sex attack that he makes allegedly on one of Charlene`s friends?
TRUNZO: Yes. Now, this is the mystery deepens because a couple of days after she was last seen, as -- a week later, actually, as her disappearance
was being investigated by police, they happened upon another woman who claimed that she was sexually assaulted by Beier, Jeff Beier, her
boyfriend. And has been arrested.
Now, there`s no -- at this point, he is not a suspect in the case. He`s not a person of interest in the case of missing Charlene Voight. But he is
in jail and he has been arrested for sexually assaulting a friend of Charlene`s.
GRACE: You know, another issue -- unleash the lawyers, Robert Schalk, defense attorney, New York, Kenya Johnson, defense attorney, Atlanta.
Kenya, you know, I always say there`s no coincidence in criminal law. But isn`t it quite the coincidence that this woman, who is alleging Charlene`s
boyfriend sexually assaulted her, was the last person reportedly to see Charlene alive?
KENYA JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, coincidences, they happen, but that doesn`t mean that there is a connection as there is no proven link.
There`s so many things to consider. She could have been -- this could be innocent, or it could range from her being a drug dealer. This could be
drug-related. I mean...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!
JOHNSON: ... -horticulture in Denver...
GRACE: Whoa! Wait! Uh! Uh! Uh! No, no, no! Who are you saying could be a drug dealer?
JOHNSON: Horticulture in Denver is code word for marijuana production. She just could be...
GRACE: Oh! Oh! You think that`s what they`re teaching at Polytech? That`s what they`re teaching is dope dealing?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK, Candace Trunzo, what do we know about the victim who goes back to school to major in landscaping?
TRUNZO: Well, we know that she had an on-off relationship with her boyfriend. And this relationship was a contentious one. We know that back
in 2012, there was an order of protection. There seemed to have been some violence involved. There was an order of protection. He was arrested
after he approached her, and then he went for, you know, some therapy and then they got back together.
So there`s been a lot of volatility in their relationship over the past four to five years. But eventually, she followed him to Colorado. They
were living together, and now suddenly, she`s disappeared.
But he has other things in his past, too. He had a wife, and he was charged with corporal injury of a spouse and threatening a witness in that
case. So he`s got a very suspect past.
GRACE: You know, you`re absolutely right, Candace Trunzo with Dailymail.com. Matt Zarrell, I`m very much taking offense at Kenya Johnson
claiming, How do we know what happened? She may have been a drug dealer because she majored -- put the guests up, please. Put up Kenya Johnson and
Robert Schalk.
Kenya, you know, my -- all my relatives grew up as farmers, OK? So what do you think they were doing, growing pot out in the back yard because they`re
farmers?
JOHNSON: Not always.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Where are you getting this?
JOHNSON: A simple theory that we haven`t gone...
GRACE: Whose theory?
JOHNSON: We don`t know about her yet or about the people around her. The police have a lot more work to do before they can start linking her
boyfriend with this crime.
GRACE: Whose theory is this, yours?
JOHNSON: This is my theory. This is a defense theory. This is...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... anybody else suggested the victim was raising pot in her one- bedroom apartment other than you? Are you the first?
JOHNSON: I`m the first, but it`s no crazier than linking him.
GRACE: OK. Really? Because isn`t it true, Robert Schalk, that he had been living in that same apartment with her?
ROBERT SCHALK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. According to reports, he was. But Nancy, I think, obviously, as you stated at the beginning of the show, the
most important aspect here is going to be the timeline. If he can provide phone data or records indicating he was nowhere near this location,
obviously, that would exonerate him. The police are being very tight- lipped. He`s got a lawyer now, so you know he`s not going to be talking, so the police...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I got two questions, one for Matt Zarrell and one for Bethany Marshall. Matt Zarrell, isn`t it true that one of his many jobs is waste
disposal with a port a potty company?
ZARRELL: Yeah.
GRACE: And isn`t it true that some of the videotape from around the time she goes missing has mysteriously been erased.
ZARRELL: Well, we don`t know exactly what the time frame was but sources tell CNN affiliate KDBR that some video was wiped from the security system
under what some consider suspicious circumstances at one of the businesses where we believe Jeffrey Beier he`s worked, but the company has not
confirmed that he worked there.
GRACE: So Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author, give me your analysis.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, my analysis there`s a history of domestic violence. She gets a restraining order against him. They`ve lived
apart for four years. She moves out to be with him, to live with him and that may have destabilized him because we know in his prior marriage as the
marriage was unraveling, according to a neighbor, he began to display very erratic behavior.
Did she discover things that were going on that she didn`t approve of and did that stimulate argumentativeness and fighting and did that precipitate
some violence? That`s what I would wonder about.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: An unarmed therapist lies flat on his back with his hands up in the air, shot by police. The shrink, a behavioral therapist is trying to calm
down his autistic patient. The patient has just run away from a group home and he`s playing with a toy car in the middle of the street when cops open
fire and it`s all caught on video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am a behavior therapist at a group home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please be still.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s shot while he`s laying on his back with his hands straight up in the air.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As long as I got my hands up, they`re not going to shoot me. This is what I`m thinking. Wow, was I wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: For those of you who are just joining us, a father of five, a behavioral therapist who has been working at a group home tries to save an
autistic man that has wandered away from the home, wandered out into the street.
The guy, the patient, is sitting in the middle of the street playing with a little white toy car when the behavior therapist risking his own life goes
out into the street and sits down with his patient trying to coax the patient out of the street and back to the group home. The therapist, the
shrink, a black male, sees cops approach, he lays down flat on his back with his hands up in the air and he is shot. We have the video. It`s
extremely disturbing. Listen.
(BEGN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lay on your stomach.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I get up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All he has is a toy truck in his hands. A toy truck. I am a behavior therapist at a group home. That`s all it is. That`s all it is
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s all it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please be still.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sit down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There is also video reportedly out there of him being shot. I don`t want to show that. Joining me is Monse Medina anchor with WIOD. Monse,
thank you for being with us. What exactly happened? What do you know?
MONSE MEDINA, WIOD ANCHOR: Well Nancy, thank you for having me first of all. Like you said, this is an unarmed behavioral therapist. He`s looking
for a severely autistic patient who in some way somehow managed to get out of the assisted living. He`s wandering off in the street. Finally Charles
Kinsey finds him. He finds him in the middle of the street. He`s sitting down and holding his toy truck. Now, meanwhile, police are getting reports
or getting calls of a confused man who is armed threatening to suicide himself.
GRACE: OK, and then what happens?
MEDINA: So, police arrive and according to their report they see two men in the middle of the street and after negotiations or some sort of standoff,
one of offers fires three shots of which one hits Kinsey in the leg. Now, Kinsey says that when the officers got there, he told them repeatedly that
he was a behavioral therapist that that was his autistic patient who he was trying to calm down, that they were both unarmed and to please not shoot.
GRACE: Everybody, I want you to see the video we are talking about. An unarmed therapist, a behavioral therapist, a shrink -- you`re seeing him
right there. His name is Charles Kinsey. He`s a father of five and he goes out in the street to try and help his autistic patient who has just
wandered away from the group home. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lay on your stomach. Lay down on your stomach.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut up. Shut up. Shut up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I get up, sir? Can I get up? All he has is a toy truck in his hand. I`m a behavior therapist at a group home. That`s all it
is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lay down on your stomach.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Laying in the middle of the road with his hands in the air.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All he has is a toy truck in his hands. A toy truck.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A north Miami police officer shoots him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He asked the officer why did you shoot me and the officer said, I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me right now the lawyer for that unarmed therapist you see lying on the road with his hands in the air. A father of five, I believe it
is. Hilton Napoleon II is Mr. Kinsey`s lawyer. Mr. Napoleon, thank you for being with us. Explain to me why your client was out in the road?
HILTON NAPOLEON II, ATTORNEY FOR UNARMED MAN: Well Nancy, first, thank you for having me here to address this very important situation. My client is a
behavioral therapist at an assisted-living facility where they take care of severely autistic adults. And the way that my client ended out in the
middle of the street was the autistic adult ran out of the group home and my client went after him.
And the autistic adult sat in the middle of the street and my client was trying to convince him to get up because although it`s not a major
thoroughfare, there were cars that were passing by at that moment. So he`s trying to protect him so that he doesn`t get hit by a car and so he makes
it -- and so that he can make it back into the group home successfully without being injured.
GRACE: What are Mr. Kinsey`s injuries? I know he was shot in the leg and that it went -- the bullet went up his leg, is that right?
NAPOLEON: Yes. He got shot close to his knee and the bullet went up his leg and exited close to his upper thigh. He was shot with AR-15 assault rifle.
That was not a pleasant experience for Mr. Kinsey.
GRACE: To Dr. Imran Ali, resident physician, joining me out of New York. Dr. Ali, if this had hit his femoral artery in his leg, he`d be dead. He
would have bled out right there on the street.
ALI: Absolutely. And the fact that, I mean, a rifle was used. You have a higher velocity bullet. You would have much more damage than a handgun.
GRACE: Joining me right now, Darren Porcher, PhD, retired NYPD lieutenant, criminal justice expert. Darren, why pull a gun? Now, I totally am on the
police side if they feel a threat, but the man is laying there on the ground. He says I`m unarmed. There`s no need for firearms. He`s got a toy
gun (ph). He keeps yelling out. He`s only got a -- excuse me, a toy truck. That`s what the guy is playing with. What went wrong?
DARREN PORCHER, RETIRED NYPD LIEUTENANT: As a prior police trainer I`ve always expressed to recruits, assess your targets before you engage in
gunfire. This clearly didn`t happen. What needs to happen now is they need to reassess the training as to what went wrong here and possibly include a
cultural and implicit bias training with the firearms training and police training.
GRACE: Another issue, Stacey Newman is -- after they go over there, they shoot Mr. Kinsey, the shrink, the behavioral therapist. They shoot him, OK,
and then they cuff him. They roll him over. The man is bleeding out on the street. Look at that. He`s rolled over and cuffed.
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yeah, and they cuffed him there for about 20 minutes bleeding until an ambulance came. But Nancy, one of the
important things we just learned from police who finally have spoken out, there was absolutely no gun recovered at the scene.
GRACE: And you know, Monse Medina, following up on what Stacey is just saying there -- Monse is joining me for WIOD -- I`m not expecting the
police to be clairvoyant, OK. I don`t expect them to know if there`s a gun or there`s not a gun when they suspect there`s a gun, they have to act. But
here, the guy is laying with his hands up in the air.
MEDINA: And you know, something interesting, Nancy, that Chief of Police Gary Eugene said today in the conference is that his officers were
responding to a call with the mindset that someone was armed.
GRACE: To Hilton Napoleon II, the attorney for Mr. Kinsey. Mr. Napoleon, I mean, it seems to be very obvious, you can see that it`s a white object.
That is not a gun.
NAPOLEON: Well, Nancy, let me tell you this. The interesting part where people are talking about now is that as far as assessing the situation, the
police were there with guns pointed at my client for three to four minutes before shots were fired, and you can clearly see in the video that the
white instrument that he`s playing with is not a firearm.
So, the fact they`re on heightened alert, I understand that, but that does not excuse the fact that you have an opportunity for three or four
minutes...
NANCY: Well, I got another problem. I got another problem. You`ve got the white guy who has the object, which we all know now is a toy truck or toy
car the guy is playing with. You got the white guy with the object. You got the black guy laying on the ground with his hands up in the air screaming
there`s no gun, it`s a toy truck, and they shoot the black guy, OK. Am I missing something, Hilton?
NAPOLEON: Well, you`re not missing anything. And the interesting part about it, I don`t know if you showed it yet or not...
GRACE: They don`t even shoot the guy with the object.
NAPOLEON: ...but there`s another video of an individual who said the exact same thing. They said why did they shoot the black guy and they admitted he
was begging them not to shoot. So listen, I have a lot of law enforcement officers in my family and there`s something that may father told me that is
very, very important.
The problem with some of the police officers is not their training, part of it is a heart issue. And they don`t view certain individuals as someone
that they care for or a member of community that they have to respect and protect.
GRACE: Everybody at the convention this week people flocking to Cleveland`s best restaurants. One of them -- they might not realize servicing cooks are
ex-felons. Restaurant owner Brandon Chrostowski is this week`s CNN Hero. Helping employees get back on track.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRANDON CHROSTOWSKI, CNN HEROE: Coming home from prison after someone`s done their time, everyone deserves that fair and equal second chance.
So, my left hand moves and my right hand follows.
I see that opportunity that someone deserves. I can see it and feel it. I`ve been given the gift to fight to make sure the door get open.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: How does he open the door? Watch his story, cnnheroes.com. Nominate someone you think should be a 2016 hero.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lie down on your stomach.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lay down on your stomach.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut up. Shut up. Shut up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I get up? All he has is a toy truck in his hand. A toy truck. I`m a behavior therapist at a group home. That`s all it is.
There`s no need for guns.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Be still.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sit down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And after that the therapist is shot. I want you to see what Mr. Kinsey says in the hospital. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES KINSEY, I`m like this right here. And when he shot me, it was so surprising and when it hit me, I`m like I still got my hands in the air,
and I say, you know, I just got shot. And I`m saying this, sir, why did you shoot me? And his words to me, he said, "I don`t know." I think they got
like one, two, three sets of handcuffs. They cuff my hands and then flip me over and I`m laying on the concrete like this right here. I`m bleeding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Robert Shalck New York, Kenya Johnson Atlanta. You know, Kenya, police were my staple when I was prosecuting crimes in
inner city Atlanta and they were not only witnesses but they were friends, and I believed in them, but I don`t understand this. I don`t think this is
right. What`s your defense?
KENYA JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, maybe there`s some angle that we haven`t seen that there was some sort of threat. But I do know that saying
I don`t know in response to why you shot me can never be good for anyone.
GRACE: OK, what about Robert?
SCHALK: Yeah, I mean, those video will be very difficult to overcome. I guess I would have to rely on what the other officers are saying to see
whether or not there was any type of justification to go up against the training he received.
But again, the video is definitely not going to help in the way this country is moving forward with prosecuting police officers by DA`s offices,
I would be surprised if charges are brought here.
GRACE: You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers," what I don`t want is more attacks on police, OK. I don`t want
that.
MARSHALL: Absolutely.
GRACE: That in this situation when you see there`s no threat, what`s the answer Dr. Bethany?
MARSHALL: Well, it seems to me that the police need help humanizing these people that they come to help following a 911 call because this is the same
pattern that we saw with Alton Sterling. Remember we talked about him last week. Someone called in an anonymous 911 call and then the police were very
frightened and in a panicked and a state of hysteria when they showed up on the scene. So, police need to be prepared before the call.
GRACE: But on the other hand, Bethany, right now people are taking pot shots and gunning down police, of course they`re scared. But this guy,
Kinsey is laying on the ground with his hands in the air.
MARSHALL: Well, they`re scared but I think we almost have a national hysteria on both sides. We have hysteria about Black Lives Matter. We have
hysteria about "Blue Lives Matter" and in the middle of it, what we`ve forgotten is that we are all people. People with a heart as one of your
guests said.
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember American hero Army Specialist William Evans, just 22, Hallstead, Pennsylvania. Bronze star, Purple Heart, loved
photography. Parents Bill and Judy, sister heather, brother Joshua. William Evans, American hero. Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being
with us. Nancy Grace signing off, and see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp eastern, and until then, good night friend.
END
