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Nancy Grace
Possible Suspect in Marcotte Murder; Man Convicted of Murdering Teresa Halbach Walks Free. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired August 15, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: Breaking news tonight. Murder rattles the small town of Princeton when a second jogger, 27-year-old Vanessa Marcotte, found
unclothed, attacked, murdered, her hands, feet, facial features burned after jogging just a half mile from her own mother`s home.
Breaking tonight, a mystery man shows up at a nearby resort very close to where Vanessa is found dead, unclothed, burned in the woods, this mystery
man covered in cuts and scratches and he blames the cuts and scratches on a motorcycle accident.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Visiting her mother in Princeton, went for a 1:00 PM jog, disappeared and was found dead, naked and burned, in the woods.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police believe 27-year-old Vanessa Marcotte tried to fight off her attacker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That led to scratches, cuts, scrapes, and/or bruises. Anyone who`s observed a male with these types of injuries should contact
the Massachusetts State Police tip line.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Missing photographer 25-year-old Teresa Halbach, bone and teeth found on the property of Steven Avery, so badly burned, the most advanced
DNA testing needed. A Netflix documentary reels in record viewers, convincing viewers that Avery`s actually innocent in Teresa`s brutal death.
Well, breaking right now, the man convicted of sex assault, cutting off Teresa`s hair and murdering Teresa Halbach walks free!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A federal judge overturned the murder conviction of a man featured in that Netflix show, "Making a Murderer."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you cut the hair off with?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The knife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Murder rattling the small town of Princeton when a second jogger, 27-year-old Vanessa Marcotte, is found unclothed, sex
attacked, murdered, her hands, feet, facial features burned after she jogs just a half a mile from her mother`s home.
Breaking right now. A mystery man shows up at a nearby resort very close to where Marcotte, Vanessa, is found dead, burned in the woods. This guy
is covered in cuts and scratches, and he blames it on a motorcycle accident.
Well, as of tonight -- catch this -- this guy, this mystery guy covered in cuts and scratches, in the same window as when Vanessa is murdered and
burned, sex assaulted?
OK, let`s start at the beginning. Straight out to Lindsay Corcoran, reporter with Masslive.com. Lindsay, you know what I always say, there is
no coincidence in criminal law. So you`ve got Karina Vetrano dying -- same thing, jogger, beautiful young brunette -- out along Howard Beach. She is
attacked. She`s sex assaulted. She`s murdered, teeth knocked out, broken.
All right, within a few days, a second person -- there on the right, that`s Vanessa Marcotte -- out jogging, also right by her family`s home, half a
mile away, she`s attacked. She is sex assaulted, and she is murdered.
And now within the window we`ve got for Vanessa`s murder, between 1:00 and 3:00 o`clock, this guy shows up around 2:00 o`clock at a nearby resort
covered in scratches and cuts, arms, face, the works?
Lindsay, did the hotel staff ask him what happened to him?
LINDSAY CORCORAN, MASSLIVE.COM (via telephone): Yes, Nancy, they did. And he said that he was in a motorcycle crash, that his bike fell over nearby,
and that -- apparently, he told staff that ambulance personnel told him to go and clean up at the resort, which would have been open.
Now the Westminster Police Department -- Westminster is next to Princeton, and the Westminster police chief did confirm that there was actually a
motorcycle crash, and they do fit the description. There was a male riding and a female passenger. And he did say that that crash was believed to be
unrelated to anything to do with Vanessa Marcotte`s murder.
GRACE: I find very, very unusual, however -- to Dr. Michelle DuPre, forensic pathologist -- that EMTs would send a crash victim walking to a
ski resort.
[20:05:08]DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Nancy, that is highly, highly unusual if that, in fact, really did happen. They would treat the
person or take them with them. They would not tell them to walk to a resort.
GRACE: That doesn`t make sense to me. Joining me, Chris Spargo, reporter, Dailymail.com. Chris Spargo, the window in Vanessa Marcotte`s murder has
been narrowed down to between 1:00 and 3:00 PM, is that right?
CHRIS SPARGO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): That is correct.
GRACE: How have they managed to do that?
SPARGO: Well, based on the time the body was found, they were able to go back and look at the injuries and pinpoint it. They found the body a
little after 8:00 PM. And that 1:00 to 3:00 PM Window is exactly the time this couple showed up at Wachusett resort.
GRACE: Chris Spargo, Dailymail.com, according to Lindsay Corcoran with Masslive.com, there was a motorcycle crash.
SPARGO: Yes.
GRACE: But I still don`t understand why an EMT would send a guy that`s been in a crash, and I guess a woman also on the motorcycle -- I`m not sure
who she is -- to a resort to get, quote, "cleaned up." That doesn`t make sense to me.
SPARGO: Right. We spoke to...
GRACE: And I`m trying to figure out what really happened.
SPARGO: We spoke to a woman at the resort, who said that she never even heard an ambulance. So if they were that close in this area, she said she
would have heard the ambulance.
GRACE: OK, from what I understand, authorities reviewed security footage of a man and woman who arrive at Wachusett Mountain around 2:30 PM, the
same day, that Sunday.
Now, how do we know that there was a legitimate crash? What do we know, Lindsay Corcoran with Masslive.com?
CORCORAN: Well, first of all, you know, any sort of crash like that is going to be logged in the police department, you know, whenever there`s a
phone call or anything like that.
Now, from the police logs in Westminster, which, again, is just one town over from Princeton -- according to the logs there, a police officer
actually came across this crash with a bike on the ground, on its side.
From what the narrative looks like, it seems like they weren`t that injured and that the man just had some road rash on his arms. That was how the
police chief described it to me when I asked.
He said maybe there was just some type of miscommunication with the resort staff and what that gentleman actually said. But he did say there was --
you know, there was a crash. They knew about it. They knew that the timing was around 1:45 PM...
GRACE: So let me understand...
CORCORAN: ... right before they showed up at the resort.
GRACE: So Chris Spargo, you`re hearing what Lindsay Corcoran has reported. So in this window that Vanessa Marcotte is murdered, that she is sex
assaulted, has a huge fight with her killer, her face, her hands, her feet are burned so her body cannot be identified. Police say they`re looking
for somebody with cuts and scratches. And then this guy shows up at 2:30 at a nearby resort covered in cuts and scratches. Is that right?
SPARGO: That is right, 10 minutes away from where she was found.
GRACE: OK, Michael Christian, what I want to understand also is, could it have been that the guy was fleeing the scene of the murder and had the
crash?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Anything is possible, Nancy. Here`s what we know. We know that press reports from the locals up there
say that police have a person of interest in this case. They have not identified this person, but they have confirmed that it is a man. And all
they`ll say about this person is that, apparently, he`s someone who knows the area very well where Vanessa Marcotte was killed.
GRACE: OK. Well, you know what? We said that on night one because if you look at this -- look at it -- thank you, Liz. Somebody would have to know
that that jogging route was there.
But I want to go back to the motorcycle driver. Chris Spargo, I mean, the timing! I can`t get away from the timing. I know that right now, police
are saying it`s unrelated, OK? But for him to be in this area where she is killed, raped and burned, and she puts up a mighty fight, the police say
they`re looking for somebody covered in scrapes and bruises, this guy shows up within about, what, eight miles...
SPARGO: That is correct.
GRACE: ... and says that he had a motorcycle crash. Well, you know, was he leaving the scene? Is that what happened? Is that why he crashed?
I`m fixated on this guy. And coincidentally, at the same time, police say they`ve got a person of interest. So are they saying they`ve got a
description of a person of interest, or do they know a name and they`re not telling us?
SPARGO: They have DNA off the body, so if this person is in the system or if they maybe tested this person, they could know the identity, but they
are not releasing it at this time.
[20:10:06]GRACE: Lindsay Corcoran with us, with Masslive.com, who has spoken to the police chief -- he says the crash -- he says right now, the
crash is unrelated. So Lindsay, they`re also saying they have a POI, person of interest. Does that mean they have a composite? Does that mean
they have a DNA sample that they`ve isolated and they haven`t matched it to anybody? Or do they have a name?
CORCORAN: Well, Nancy, I think it`s a little hard to tell at this point. They won`t release any of that information. I think that the way it`s been
reported and discussed is they do have a person of interest, and that must mean that they have a name and they`re running that particular person`s
DNA. If they know that that person`s familiar with the area, they must have a name attached to that person at this point.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A young woman murdered in a vicious attack.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A Google account executive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The girl who always had a smile.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Brutally attacked and murdered in Princeton as she went for an afternoon jog. Her body was found in the woods burned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:15:04]GRACE: Tonight, we learn that a man, a mystery man covered in cuts and scrapes, shows up just a couple of miles away from where Vanessa
Marcotte put up the fight of her life. She was murdered, sex attacked, and her body burned. She was found unclothed in a very rural area just one
half mile from her mother`s home.
Now, she lived in New York City. She worked with Google and visited her mother bimonthly. Could someone know that?
To Chris Spargo, reporter, Dailymail.com. Chris, it`s got to be somebody familiar with the area. They didn`t just drive in from California and
happen to see her jogging along the side of the road. You had to know where to look, all right?
So could that be somebody that worked at her gas station that she drives into from New York City every couple of weeks? Could it be somebody at a
local restaurant? Could it be somebody that put air in her tires, at a toll booth, that sees her coming, somebody maybe she went to high school
with nearby, somebody that works at that resort that saw her, that knows she goes jogging every Sunday afternoon she comes to visit her mom, or just
sees her come into town?
It`s a small area, Chris Spargo. Help me!
SPARGO: I mean, that`s exactly right, too. As you mentioned, she takes the same jogging route every time she`s there. And the fact that it
happened a half mile, so close, seems to make it seem like this person knew exactly where she was going to be at that exact time.
GRACE: Now, here`s another thing -- back to you, Michael Christian. What we have learned from police is that a police log shows there was a crash
Sunday, 1:43 PM, OK, that the motorcycle was, quote, "laid down." In other words, they tried to turn a curve or got off balance, and it went down
sideways on Worcester Road.
The log shows a man was riding the motorcycle with a female passenger. They both did not want to go to the hospital. Both declined to meet with
authorities. The motorcyclist had road rash on his arms and was on his way to Wachusett Mountain when the crash occurred, and that`s why he sought
medical attention there.
Wait a minute! Sought medical attention there? I thought EMTs told him to go there. I thought he came in contact with EMTs, Michael. Do you know?
CHRISTIAN: That`s what`s been reported, Nancy. I read that in a couple of different articles. That`s what`s been reported.
GRACE: OK, Lindsay Corcoran, Masslive.com, if he came in contact with EMTs, then why did they tell him to go to Wachusett Mountain resort for
medical attention?
CORCORAN: When I spoke to the police chief, it didn`t sound like he thought they actually gave them that advice. He thought maybe there was
some type of miscommunication because they really wouldn`t tell them to go and seek medical treatment elsewhere.
I think what likely happened is he, you know, wasn`t very hurt and felt like he just needed to clean out his cuts and wounds, and that`s where he
was heading anyways. It`s unclear exactly what the (INAUDIBLE) personnel, you know, may have said or may have told him.
GRACE: Well, it sounds like two different stories to me because he tells the resort, The EMTs sent me here, and now they`re saying -- I`m hearing
that that`s not what was said. So who`s telling the truth? This is a murder investigation, and a small discrepancy could be very, very
important.
Another thing -- back to you, Lindsay Corcoran, Masslive.com. They are saying they`ve got a POI, person of interest. Well, wouldn`t it help to
put that information out there? If they think it`s a white male, OK, tell me. If they think the guy has dark hair and a mustache riding a red Chevy
truck, tell me.
Shouldn`t the public be able to help police, or is it that they`ve got a POI, person of interest, and that they`ve got DNA? What -- what -- you`ve
talked to the police chief. What`s your feel?
CORCORAN: Well, I think my feeling right now is that, you know, this person of interest that they have -- and they`ve specified they believe
he`s familiar with the area, that means they must have a name attached. They must know exactly who they`re talking about.
I think the current DNA testing that`s happening will tell them, you know, how -- will tell them if this is Vanessa Marcotte`s killer. I mean, she
scratched him. She probably had some DNA under her fingernails. And you know, I think they can conclusively tell fairly soon with the DNA test if
this person of interest is the suspect or not.
I think that`s what`s holding them back from releasing any details at this point. They may know the answer soon.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:24:00]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: State police looking for evidence in the woods off Brooks Station Road.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She went missing on the rural road during an afternoon jog. Investigators say the suspect is a man who may have fresh
scratches and cuts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Evidence and information leads us to believe that there was a struggle between Vanessa and her assailant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Everyone, right now, several breaking developments in the search for the killer of Vanessa Marcotte. And is that killer related to the
killer of another lady jogger at Queens, at Howard Beach?
Question to you. Michael Christian, what can you tell me about the developments in the ping that was so critical of Vanessa Marcotte`s cell
phone? What`s the latest on that?
CHRISTIAN: You know, they haven`t released anything about it, Nancy. We know that there`s a cell tower near a restaurant, and we were told that the
day she vanished, Vanessa, her family went to the restaurant looking for her, thinking that she might be in that area because, apparently, her cell
phone had pinged from that particular tower.
[20:25:04]But authorities haven`t told us anything more, and we don`t know...
GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Put him up! Michael...
CHRISTIAN: Yes?
GRACE: ... are you sure that that`s the ping that they find so critical? Is it her phone pinging off that tower, or is it her phone pinging
somewhere else?
CHRISTIAN: We believe it`s her phone pinging off...
GRACE: Uh, uh, uh, uh! I asked what you believe, Michael. I`m asking you, do you know what ping it was?
CHRISTIAN: I don`t know who had the phone at that time. I don`t know if she went by there with it, or if whoever killed her had it later.
GRACE: Do we know if it`s that cell tower?
CHRISTIAN: We believe it is. That`s all I can tell you. We believe it is.
GRACE: That sounds like no.
(CROSSTALK)
CHRISTIAN: I`m not saying no. We believe it is. We believe you`re correct.
GRACE: OK, Lindsay Corcoran -- no, no, no, no, no! I`m not saying that the critical ping they`re so focused on is off that tower, which is right
there. I mean, I already know she`s right there. It`s about a five-mile distance. I know she`s near the Mountain Barn restaurant when her body is
found because they`re only a couple miles apart.
But why are they so interested in the ping? Lindsay, did the ping that the cops are so interested in from the phone -- was it from that cell tower?
CORCORAN: Yes. I think that`s what we`ve heard, as well, is that it was from the cell tower across the street there the Mountain Barn restaurant.
It sounds like it may have been her routine, as well, to run or jog up to that area, up in that direction.
GRACE: So Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert, what is so critical about that ping? I already know she`s jogging in that area. Could the
ping have come after she`s murdered and her body left behind? Because otherwise, it`s not really telling me that much. I see where her body is.
I see where the Mountain Barn restaurant is. I already know that`s where she is.
So what`s so critical about the ping, unless it`s the timing of the ping? Did the ping show up after she`s already dead, which means the perp went
that way or works there or went there to get cleaned up or even ate there? What could be so critical about the ping?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT (via telephone): The ping could mean the perpetrator has the phone, and that`s why they`re being quiet
about it. But what if he went across state lines? Now we have federal jurisdiction, trying to track down a cell phone and you need a federal
search warrant. They may know exactly where this guy is, if he has the phone, Nancy.
GRACE: I`ve got a question for you, Ben Levitan. The fact that we`re talking about Mountain Barn restaurant -- could it have been someone eating
there that saw her jogging? Would the ping help...
LEVITAN (on-camera): It could be, Nancy. Nancy, that area, that cell tower covers three square miles. Somebody could have taken the phone from
her, left the area. And police may be keeping it quiet because they`re tracking that phone right now. They know right where it is. They can
probably get to within 100 feet of that phone, Nancy.
[20:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Crime victim-turned-crime fighter Hailey Dean is back in "Murder in the Courthouse."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The unstoppable prosecutor digs in to track down a killer, but could she wind up the next victim? Find out in the third book
in Nancy`s best-selling series.
GRACE: Portions of proceeds go to help find missing children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pre-order your copy now on Amazon, barnesandnobles.com, and more.
GRACE: My proceeds to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, go to murderinthecourthouse.com. Amazon books` Books-A-Million
pre-orders come with an autographed manuscript page from "Murder in the Courthouse".
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Missing photographer, a 25-year-old girl, Teresa Halbach, bone and teeth found on the property of Steven Avery, so badly burned. The most
advanced DNA testing needed.
A Netflix documentary reels in record viewers, convincing viewers that Steven Avery is innocent in Teresa`s brutal murder.
Breaking right now, the man convicted of sex assault, cutting off Teresa`s hair, and murdering Teresa Halbach, walks free.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you binge watch or hear about that Netflix series "Making a Murderer"?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And when did you plan it?
BRENDAN DASSEY, CONVICTED OF MURDERING TERESA HALBACH: for a few days.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible)?
STEVEN AVERY, CONVICTED OF MURDERING TERESA HALBACH: Teresa -- she was coming home ...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A judge overturned the murder conviction of Brendan Dassey.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you involved with the murder of Teresa Halbach, yes or no?
DASSEY: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s start at the beginning. With me is Dan O`Donnell, anchor/reporter with WISN who has covered the Avery and Dassey trials. And
also with me, special guest Ken Kratz, who prosecuted Brendan Dassey, author of "Avery: The Case Against Steven Avery and What`s Making a
Murderer Gets Wrong." His book, coming out is at pre-order amazon.com.
Ken Kratz is joining us. First of all, it`s my understanding that the judge in this case, Judge William Duffin, has cut Dassey free and ordered a new
trial. First of all, I don`t care what Netflix has told everybody. I want you to hear what Dassey says. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s start with when you bring her out to the garage. Where did you put her?
DASSEY: On the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And continue, tell us what happened.
[20:35:00] DASSEY: And then he stabs her and then he tells me to and then he puts her into the jeep and then he said he would rather burn her so then
he put her back on the floor and then he shot her five times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where did he stab her?
DASSEY: In the chest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Show me where.
DASSEY: Like right here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where do you stab her?
DASSEY: In the stomach.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does she say when you stab her?
DASSEY: To stop what I was doing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s that? Is she screaming?
DASSEY: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is she screaming and saying stop what you`re doing? Is she swearing at you? Is she struggling or what? Tell us how that happened.
DASSEY: Just that she was crying a lot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you holding her down?
DASSEY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who is?
DASSEY: Steven is.
He went to go pick up some stuff around the yard then after that we -- he asked me to come in the house cuz he wanted to show me somethin`.
And he showed me that he was laying on the bed, her hands were roped up to the bed and that her legs were cuffed. And then h told me to have sex with
her, and so I did because I thought I was not gonna get away from `em cuz he was too strong so I did what he said and then after that, he untied her
and uncuffed her and then he brought her outside and before we went outside he told me to grab her clothes and her shoes.
So we went into the garage and before she went out, when before he took her outside, he had tied up her hands and feet and then was in the garage and
he stabbed her and then he told me to.
And, after that he wanted to make sure she was dead or somethin` so he shot her five times, and while he was doing that I wasn`t looking because I
can`t watch that stuff.
So I was standing by the big door in the garage and then after that, he took her outside and we put her on the fire and we used her clothes to
clean up the -- some of the blood. And When we put her in the fire, and her clothes, we were standing right by the garage to wait for it to get down
sow e threw some of that stuff in it after it went down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: When I hear that, I can hardly stand it. To Dan O`Donnell, anchor/reporter with WISN who covered both the Steven Avery and the Brendan
Dassey trials, it also appeared in the Netflix documentary, Dan, why did this judge, William Duffin, say that this interrogation was wrong?
DAN O`DONNELL, WISN ANCHOR/REPORTER: If you can believe this, Nancy, his argument basically rested on the idea that because the two interrogators
were telling Dassey it`s going to be OK, Brendan. Everything`s going to be OK. We`re your side, just tell us what happened. That amounted to the
investigators making false promises to him and, in effect, coercing his confession.
GRACE: OK. Did they ever beat him, Dan O`Donnell?
O`DONNELL: No.
GRACE: Did they make promises that he was going to get out of jail?
O`DONNELL: Of course not, no.
GRACE: OK, unleash the lawyers, David Bruno and Troy Slaten. Troy Slaten, what`s wrong with this interrogation? Why is Brendan Dassey set to walk
free?
TROY SLATEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Brendan Dassey and Steven Avery were never in danger of getting a fair trial. The judge here found that the
confessions were so unfair ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Why?
SLATEN: ... as to render them involuntary ...
GRACE: Yeah, that`s where I started.
(CROSSTALK)
SLATEN:: In order for a confession to be admissible ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What`s wrong?
SLATEN: ... they have to be made knowingly, intelligently, and voluntarily. And in this case, that just did not happen.
GRACE: OK.
SLATEN: There`s this kid who is mentally challenged, thought he was going to get to go back to school to participate in a report that he had to do.
They were telling him, just tell us what we want to know, and then you get to go and be on your way.
GRACE: OK. Hold on, David Bruno. Let me go to Ken Kratz who actually prosecuted Dassey. You can just save all that shaking your head, David
Bruno, for when I come back to you, you can just shake it all you want to.
Because, Ken Kratz, I know you`re not used to getting cross-examined. But just to get it out there, number one, Dassey is not mentally ill. As a
matter of fact, we reviewed the documents, he`s in the average range of I.Q. Granted, it`s lower average, but he has an average I.Q.
They gave him his Miranda rights. They stay it over and over and over on the video. His mother is sitting in the next room and decides she doesn`t
want to come in. And in the critical interview, his lawyer had been called. What is wrong with the interrogation, Ken?
[20:40:00] KEN KRATZ, PROSECUTED BRENDAN DASSEY AND STEVEN AVERY: Well, that`s right, Nancy. There`s absolutely no problem at all with this
interrogation, and I never thought so from the beginning.
The justice, the magistrate in this case found that it ought to be believed that it was a reliable statement by this young man. That the investigators
never did make any promises. In fact, there was no single statement that they could point to that led to this ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Why is this judge, William Duffin, doing this? This woman, a 25- year-old girl, was tortured, she was bound, her hair cut off her head with a knife, she was sex attacked by two men, then she was stabbed, she was
shot, and her body was burned in this guy`s fire pit at his auto salvage business.
The Daisy Fuentes studs on her jeans and her teeth were found in that fire pit, her car was hidden at the end of the auto salvage lot, covered up with
plywood and trees, and his, Steven Avery`s sweat, when he was trying to move that car and hide it, was found in the ignition as he tried to turn
those car keys.
I mean, when I think of my daughter growing up and becoming a photographer and getting brought out to some perv`s place like this, how can Duffin do
it, Ken?
KRATZ: Well, you heard that at the beginning of this segment, you heard Brendan Dassey`s very clear, very coherent admission about what had
happened.
You know, Brendan Dassey has exactly the same I.Q. as Steven Avery does. Steven Avery, they never claimed had any problem resisting any kind of
temptation or statements by the investigators, and Brendan Dassey didn`t either.
On 13 different occasions, Brendan Dassey himself resisted suggestions by these officers. This was a statement in the one that you played, of course,
never heard by the audience in "Making a Murderer," that statement was very clear, was very detailed and horrific. And that`s the kind of behavior that
this young man engaged him that led to his conviction.
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Breaking news tonight.
Umm: For breaking news on all our top stories, go to Twitter@nancygrace and Facebook.
GRACE: Bombshell tonight ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ll find the latest on outrageous crimes, missing persons, fugitives on the run, and much more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first question you have to ask yourself is do you want to spend the rest of your life in prison?
So is that a yes or a no? I can`t hear you.
DASSEY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Do you want to get out and have a family someday? That means you have to cooperate with me and help me -- help me work with
you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is from "Making a murderer," the documentary from Netflix that is making a lot of viewers feel really sorry for Brendan Dassey, the co-
defendant that was convicted by a jury of raping, cutting the hair off, torturing, stabbing, shooting, murdering, and burning the body of a 25-
year-old girl. Teresa Halbach. Her family is fairly convinced that Avery and Dassey did this thing. Now, you saw him looking pitiful right there.
Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you pick Teresa?
DASSEY: Cuz she was comin` over that day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he tell you she was coming over? Did he tell you she was coming over?
DASSEY: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what did he say he was going do?
DASSEY: That he was gonna kill her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he say why?
DASSEY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he tell you to come over then? To help him, or what did he tell you? What did he tell you, Brendan?
DASSEY: That he wanted me to help him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did you agree to do that?
DASSEY: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you go over there? You had this stuff planned already, didn`t you? You and Steve had this planned? Yeah? Yes or no?
DASSEY: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And when did you plan it?
DASSEY: For a few days.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And what did you have planned? Tell me what you had planned. Come on. Brendan, did you have this planned? Yes or no?
DASSEY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who did you plan it with?
DASSEY: Steven.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When?
DASSEY: A few days before it happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And what did you have planned to do?
Details are easy, come on, you`ve already given me that you were involved in it, so just go on with the details. Paint the picture for me. Obviously
I know already. I know a bunch of this already. I keep proving that to you. The details are easy, just tell me what you guys planned and what you did.
No sweat.
DASSEY: That I had sex with her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, David Bruno and Troy Slaten. Also joining us, the actual prosecutor in this case, Ken Kratz, now the author of "Avery:
The Case Against Steven Avery and What "Making a Murderer Gets Wrong." It`s available for pre-order on Amazon right now.
Ok, David Bruno, don`t just echo what your buddy, Troy Slaten, says.
(CROSSTALK)
DAVID BRUNO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I won`t.
GRACE: I want you to tell me, you`re a well-respected lawyer.
BRUNO: Absolutely.
GRACE: I want you to tell me what was wrong with that interrogation because I say nothing was wrong with it.
BRUNO: I hate to break it to you and Ken, but this is not a new rule of law. Statements have to be voluntary. And now, what`s changed here is that
we now get to see videos of how police conduct themselves in providing Miranda and various other promises and pressures when they have defendants
in custody. And it was here that ...
(CROSSTALK)
[20:50:00] GRACE: I`m still asking the same question. What was wrong with those questions, and you still haven`t answered. Do you have an answer?
BRUNO: It`s the overall. It`s the totality of the circumstances ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: And they are what?
BRUNO: ... intellect. It`s the promises.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: He`s 16 years old. Wait. Wait. Wait. He`s 16 years old.
BRUNO: Right.
GRACE: He was repeatedly told he had a right to have a lawyer. His mother is waiting in the next room. She was asked to come in. She chose not to
come in. His lawyer knows he`s there and sent a representative from the law firm there. And he was repeatedly told he had a right to remain silent and
he could have a lawyer with him. He also is not mentally ill. His I.Q. is in the average range. So why do you keep saying that?
(CROSSTALK)
BRUNO: You know, Nancy, he doesn`t have to be mentally ill. He doesn`t have to be beaten. This issue of voluntariness goes far beyond those factors.
It`s the totality of the circumstance. And I`ve always been very critical - I`ve been very critical of this documentary.
GRACE:: Ken Kratz, totality of the circumstances is a legal phrase, but it does not apply to whether somebody gets Miranda or not. So, Ken, can you
answer the question and respond to Bruno?
KRATZ: Sure. The totality of the circumstances is the standard for voluntariness. However, totality of the circumstances, Nancy, is put
together with all of those circumstances that we talked about.
And when the magistrate, in this case, admitted that there was no promises that were made. In fact, the officer said, I can`t make any promises to
you. When they absolutely did not make any threats, when they told Brendan Dassey that we want you to tell the truth, telling the truth or imploring
somebody to tell the truth is not the same as making promises or making inducements or threatening them.
These are things that happen everyday across this country when they take statements from people and absolutely is not rendering the statement
involuntary.
GRACE: I mean, Justin Freiman, very quickly, Justin, what is Dassey`s I.Q? Let`s just clear that up. And what can you tell me about bleach?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: All right, Nancy. First with the bleach, he said that bleach was used to clean up some of the mess that
we`ve done from killing the woman, and then he actually led police back to his home where he gave them pants that actually have a bleach stain on
them.
[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At what point did you put her cell phone and camera and purse and stuff in the burn barrel?
DASSEY: I didn`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Who did?
DASSEY: Probably Steven.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, not "probably." Who did? If you know, you need to tell me. You were over there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So, Justine Freiman, you`re saying that this guy who has average intelligence, he was tested in court, says that he covered up the evidence
with bleach and led police to his clothing ...
Hold on. Joining me right now, psychologist Greg Cason. Greg, have you watched this video of him being interrogated? He has the same affect all
the time, not looking up. As far as I`m concerned, that may be because he is ashamed of what he did.
GREG CASON, PSYCHOLOGIST: Maybe, Nancy, but I wouldn`t put that as the sole factor. I mean, this guy was under duress. He is 16 years old. He does --
now, low-average I.Q. is between 80 and 89. This is not someone who could compete with most people that he`s encountering. Plus, he doesn`t have an
adult there, any kind of supportive adult. So, I wouldn`t buy for a second that he really knew what was going on. I think he was just terrified.
GRACE: OK. So, you think that he did not rape and help murder Teresa Halbach?
CASON: Well, I don`t know if that`s the case. Certainly, what we see here can`t prove that he helped rape and murder her because what he was doing
...
(CROSSTALK)
CASON: ... seemed like it was -- what?
(CROSSTALK)
CASON: Sorry?
GRACE: He just said that he had sex with her and looked away when Steven Avery shot her in the head. Did you -- did you miss that part?
CASON: No. Unfortunately, I had the benefit of watching the Netflix documentary, and there were a lot of other statements and a lot of other
factors that went into this that it looked like his confession was, in fact, under duress. I think that ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK.
CASON: ... if you`re beaten down after enough time, you`re going to give a confession that they want to hear.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Hold on. Ken Kratz, see that`s another person, I guess like this judge, William Duffin, who is making such an important decision based on a
Netflix show.
KRATZ: Well, I made my case for me, Nancy. Watching Netflix and the little snippets that they play is absolutely spoon-feeding the audience to say
that these were involuntary.
When you look at the entire statement, it is very, very clear that he made those statements. And moreover, when you look at YouTube, somebody from the
Avery camp put what they call the entire confession on YouTube. Forty minutes, that the middle of all that has been added that, Nancy.
When you look at what they put on, saying it`s the whole three hours, 40 minutes of the most damming part isn`t even on what they`ve spoon-fed here
to the audience. What does that tell you? This is all the side of Avery, all the side of the people that are advocates, which I don`t begrudge them
for doing that at all. But you shouldn`t be making these important decisions on that.
NANCY: Let`s remember American hero Sergeant Thomas Strickland, 27, Douglasville, Georgia. Well-rounded, so likable. Loved meeting people and
mission work. Parents, Patty and Ronny. Thomas Strickland, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace, signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp, Eastern, and
until then, good night, friend.
[21:00:00]
END
