Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Three Terror Strikes, Three States, 12 Hours; Kidnapped Woman`s Desperate 911 Call; Search for Missing Mother and Toddler in Florida. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired September 19, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, America under attack! A trio of terror attacks erupts on American soil in just 12 hours. Are there more
coming? A powerful shock rocks high-class Chelsea neighborhood after a bomb with shrapnel explodes, 29 victims from the bomb explosion as a second
highly similar device discovered nearby on the route of a Marine Corps run. A third attack in Minnesota with an assailant targeting nine people inside
a popular shopping mall.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three attacks in three American cities in a single day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s go! Get off the street!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bomb blasts in New York and New Jersey.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We heard a loud boom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A loud explosion. It felt like a lightning bolt shook the building. It, like, shook the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And a stabbing spree at a shopping mall in Minnesota.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Attacked nine people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can see where the blade went through the hat. It went through the skin and hit my skull.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A kidnapped woman, terrified her kidnapper lying beside her would wake up, makes a desperate 911 call, leading cops not only to her but to at
least three more dead bodies of women once presumed missing, now known dead at the heads of an alleged serial killer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve been abducted.
911 OPERATOR: Who abducted you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shawn grate (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A man who she said lied (ph) there in bed, sleeping next to her naked.
911 OPERATOR: Are you tied up now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, but I kind of freed myself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Behind the barricaded door without a handle, unspeakable things had happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, America under attack. A trio of terror attacks erupt on American soil within just 12 hours. Are there more coming? A powerful
shock rocks high-class Chelsea neighborhood after a bomb with shrapnel explodes, 29 victims from that bomb explosion. A second highly similar
device discovered nearby on the route of a planned Marine Corps run. A third attack in Minnesota with an assailant targeting nine people inside a
popular shopping mall.
First of all, I want you to see the video of Orange Siri (ph) Fitness that we have found. Take a look. People walking by casually just before the
explosion. Bam! Running, running away. Look at this.
Straight out to Jean Casarez, CNN correspondent. Jean, I want to start first of all with what happened in Chelsea. Take it from the top.
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Nancy, it`s been an amazing 48 hours. I was in Chelsea. I was covering this for CNN Saturday night. It
was 23rd Street and 5th (sic) Avenue, the heart of New York City, bustling Saturday night. And they had just had a device go off.
And initially, they said that it had no link to terrorism at all, but a device went off in or near the dumpster. But what we do know is that 29
people were injured, 24 people were transported to hospitals. You saw the video. You saw the people running. It was an explosion. There were
fragments. People were injured from the shrapnel, as you said, as what (ph) that device exploded.
And then, all of a sudden, we hear 27th, 27th Street between 6th and 7th, the exact area several streets over, a device has been found, a secondary
device, we`re hearing. So then we know there was the initial device. That`s when we understood that law enforcement was retrieving something
that had not exploded. It turned out to be a pressure type of device, a pressure cooker that was really a homemade bomb.
They got that and worked on forensic evidence. And we do know that from a piece of evidence that they collected from New York -- and I say New York
because that`s where all this happened originally -- they got a fingerprint. They got a fingerprint and they got a cell phone inside that
pressure cooker. And lo and behold, that cell phone, authorities are saying, was linked, is linked to Ahmad Khan Rahami. And there was
surveillance video of both locations in New York. They saw the same person. That`s how they said they knew they had their man.
GRACE: Well, the deal is, to my understanding, Jean Casarez, CNN correspondent joining us on the scene, that this guy is born in
Afghanistan. He is a naturalized U.S. citizen.
[20:05:06]He travels back and forth to Afghanistan quite a bit, and other areas of the world. And he had to have his fingerprint on file. You have
to give your fingerprint for that kind of travel. So once they got a partial print of one of these pressure cooker bombs, it should have been
bam, bam, bam, wham-bam to get a matchup.
Let`s take a look at some of that surveillance video. Between the surveillance video, the fingerprint and facial recognition, this guy was --
it was a done deal that he was going to be caught. The surveillance video I`m talking about is the black and white video of Rahami. And you see him.
Not only is he spotted in both the locations by witnesses and caught on surveillance video, the bombs themselves were extremely similar. And when
you see the picture, the surveillance video of Rahami, there he is. And many people now recall seeing him and saying he seemed to be out of place
at at least the Chelsea location.
Three terror strikes on U.S. soil in just 12 hours! Now, Jean Casarez, at first, nobody would say the word terror, terror attack. Why?
CASAREZ: Well, Nancy, we were listening to a press conference with Mayor Bill de Blasio. I was right there Saturday night. And he said that
there`s no correlation at this point to terror at all, but then several sentences later said all of our anti-terror units are on the scene right
now, and they are extremely vigilant. We are trying to find out the answer. So there was a mixed message, obviously, but it was...
GRACE: Right.
CASAREZ: The investigation hadn`t even begun yet.
GRACE: Question, Jean. Was there a note found in a plastic bag connected to these bombs?
CASAREZ: I initially heard that. I haven`t heard anything about that since. But they`re not talking about the evidence. But that`s an
interesting point right there...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I`ve heard from several different outlets. I`m trying to find out about that note.
Joining me right now, a special guest, in addition to Jean, in Jeffrey Knight, who is a witness. Jeffrey Knight, thank you for being with us.
You saw the aftermath. What exactly did you see, Jeff.
JEFFREY KNIGHT, WITNESS TO SHOOTING (via telephone): How`re you doing, Nancy? Thank you for having me. It was just a hectic morning. I went
from laying down in the bed just to hearing, like, these real loud -- there`s a bang, like, and it was, like -- at first, like the first minute,
it was, like, a good four or five, six shots, maybe. But you know, at the time, you didn`t know what it was. It was just so loud that, you know,
you`re just, like, What is that? It was just, like, Boom, boom, boom, boom!
So I get up and I go to my back window. I`m looking at my back yard (INAUDIBLE) seemed like it`s that close. So I`m looking, I`m looking. I
don`t see nothing, and I don`t hear nothing no more.
A minute passes, a minute or so, and next thing, I hear more. But now it`s, like, 10 to 12 maybe. It`s, like, Boom, boom, boom! They`re getting
louder and (INAUDIBLE) closer. So at this point, you know, I`m grabbing, you know, shoes and sneakers, and you know, trying to put on pants, trying
to see what`s going on so I could get to my front porch and see, you know, what`s going on outside.
So as I`m making my way outside and opening the door, all I hear is a bunch of sirens and cops, you know, running everywhere as I`m opening my door
slowly. And it`s just like a scene I`ve never seen before. It was just unbelievable, cops everywhere, just you know, undercover cop cars
everywhere, and guns. You just know -- I`ve never seen before. Like, it was like a movie out there, basically, and it was just, you know,
unbelievable.
GRACE: With me, everybody...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Jeffrey Knight is joining us who actually was a witness to all of this. Jean Casarez also with us there on the scene. As we go to air
tonight, this guy has been identified and has just been taken into custody after a shootout.
Tell me about how this guy was caught, Ahmad Khan Rahami, 28 years old. Tell me, Jean.
CASAREZ: Well, what we understand is that he reached this location behind me here in Linden, New Jersey, a residential area, families being raised.
And law enforcement in a squad car pulled up next to him. He started shooting at them, is what we understand.
Then at one point, the officer shot back, but four officers were injured. Initially we heard two, but now it`s four. They had to be transported to
hospitals, one shot in his vest, another shot in his hand. But they shot Rahami in the shoulder. He went down, tried to get up, looked dazed, but
obviously, he couldn`t move. He was transported to a hospital. He`s in custody in a hospital.
GRACE: And you know, apparently, he and his family have some kind of a history claiming that they have been targeted because they`re from
Afghanistan or because they`re Muslim, something along those lines. What do you know about that, Jean?
[20:10:08]CASAREZ: Exactly. First American Fried Chicken restaurant -- it`s about three miles up the road in Elizabeth, New Jersey. His father
owns it, and the mayor of Elizabeth, New Jersey, said that his family lives on the upper levels.
That restaurant used to be open 24 hours a day. And the mayor of Elizabeth told me that the community was just beyond approach on that because there
was noise at all hours. There were noise ordinances that were violated.
GRACE: Well, they have a law...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... business had to close down at 10:00 o`clock, right? That`s the law.
CASAREZ: And so that`s what the city said. And the family filed a lawsuit, the Rahami family, saying that they were discriminated against
because they were Muslim. That was filed in 2011. The city told me that they won that lawsuit in 2012. But they`ve not gotten along with him. The
family has not gotten along with the city, and the community knows the whole family because they were so up in arms about the whole thing.
GRACE: So this is a guy that is from Afghanistan, born there, traveling back and forth and back and forth quite a bit to Afghanistan. Why was he -
- I don`t understand. Was he not on a watch list of some sort?
CASAREZ: No. No, he was not on a watch list. He was not. I can`t tell you why he was not. They had no information on him. right now -- today,
they said that they`ve really got to look into his social media background...
GRACE: Jean, Jean, Jean...
CASAREZ: ... to try to find out the motive here.
GRACE: Were you there with me in New York on September 11? Were you there that day when that happened?
CASAREZ: I wasn`t. I had not arrived in New York yet.
GRACE: I remember it like it was yesterday! And it`s just amazing to me, with all of his anti-government sentiment, suing the government because
he`s from Afghanistan, claiming he`s being targeted, you know, and now this -- how did he have a gun? How could he shoot at police?
And another thing. I want to go to Bert Baron, morning show host joining me from WCTC. Weigh in, Bert.
BERT BARON, WCTC (via telephone): Yes, Nancy, this has been just an exhausting 48 hours in this part of the country. Illegal guns are acquired
constantly in New Jersey. It`s a big problem. And the fact that he even had this weapon just adds to the madness that we experienced. And he was
returning fire with police and was taken down and taken into custody and hospitalized.
But you`re right. How could he not be on a watch list traveling back and forth from Afghanistan. You detailed the lawsuit that he and his family
had against the city of Elizabeth. His every single move should have been closely watched and documented because this was just -- no pun intended,
this was a time bomb ready to go off at some point. And I`m smart enough to know, Nancy, that this is not the last we`re going to see of these
incidents.
GRACE: Oh, no. Joining me right now, national security reporter with "The Washington Post," Matt Zapotosky. Matt, thank you for being with us. I
want to hear your thoughts on this because I don`t know why this guy was not on a watch list. He`s from Afghanistan. He travels back and forth all
the time. But more important than that -- that could apply to thousands of people -- his anti-government sentiment!
MATT ZAPOTOSKY, "WASHINGTON POST": Well, I don`t know that we have demonstrated that this guy in particular has anti-government sentiments.
His family, his father and two of his brothers, were the ones who sued the city over this, I don`t know, neighborly dispute, this dispute about how
long they could stay open.
So I think it might be a little premature to say this guy in particular had anti-government sentiments based on what we know so far.
GRACE: You know what? I hear what you`re saying. Peter Brookes is joining me, national security expert with the Heritage Foundation and the
former deputy assistant defense secretary.
You know what, Peter? I stood by and saw what happened after September 11. Our friends, dear friends were in the attack, as well as the one in
Pennsylvania. Our friends were at the Pentagon.
And when you have a person suing the government, the family suing the government, claiming they`re being targeted because they`re Muslim, they`re
from Afghanistan, they travel back and forth, back and forth, I think that should be on a watch list.
PETER BROOKES, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Well, the FBI and law enforcement have to decide that, but I can`t argue that. I mean, it would seem he would be
somebody who would be looked at quite closely.
But there`s going to be a lot of answers that -- questions that need to be answered because of this, as they find out more about him and his social
media dealings, whether he was directed by a foreign -- a terrorist organization, whether this is criminal and it`s just -- it`s a domestic
issue. There`s so many things that still need to be answered, and once again, law enforcement intelligence are going to have to go back and say,
How did we miss this and not able to prevent it. This person put down ten different explosive devices.
Now, Nancy, our law enforcement and intelligence people are doing a great job when you think about it, considering the opportunities that are out
there for this sort of thing to happen. I mean, our security is earned one tough day at a time.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:18:44]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Glass, window, cars, businesses shattered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a loud explosion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was the loudest thing I`ve ever heard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It does frighten me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the suspect, Ahmad Khan Rahami, as you can see, captured alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Why? Why did he do this? Taking shots at police officers as he was arrested. And tonight we learn this guy, born in Afghanistan, travels
back and forth to Afghanistan quite often, around the world, is a U.S. naturalized citizen. He became a U.S. citizen, as well, with anti-
government sentiment.
What we`re trying to figure out now, is anybody else involved? How did he pull it off? Are others working with him? What can authorities do to stop
this from happening again? He was not on a watch list. Why? There may be very good explanations as to why he was not. But right now, we don`t know
them.
The bombs very similar. Take a look at this video we obtained where there was a controlled explosion of one of the bombs that had not gone off yet.
Now, look at this. Keep watching.
[20:20:00]Now, think about it. A bomb -- this bomb put along and similar bombs where there was a Marine Semper Fi run about to take place. And only
because the registration -- there was a delay in registering all the runners, it didn`t go off while they were running. They hadn`t started
running yet. This was aimed at U.S. Marines as they would be running along beside this bomb.
Joining me right now is another special guest, Marc Lamberty, retired bomb tech, Connecticut State Police, who responded to the Boston Marathon
bombing. Marc, pleasure to have you, along with our other experts.
I`m sure the -- an acronym HMTD rings a bell with you, the explosive used in not only these -- two of these pressure cooker bombs, but I believe the
London bombings, as well.
Is it true that these also use Christmas lights and a flip phone to make it work? How can you make such a lethal weapon out of Christmas lights and a
flip phone?
MARC LAMBERTY, RETIRED BOMB TECH, CONNECTICUT STATE POLICE: Thanks for having me, Nancy. I am familiar with HMTD. It`s an improvised explosive.
And you know, information is out there. It`s readily available to anyone who has access to the internet as to how to use different types of
initiators that are not commercially made, using different types of switches, again, that are not commercial made, or taking products that you
have in your home and improvising them in a way that they were not originally designed to be used for.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:46]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a huge explosion. And I saw the back window of an SUV pop out. Like, all the glass went into the street.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) find out that it was an explosion because we were just really shocked.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I felt like a lightning bolt struck the building.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Why? That is the big question tonight. In the last hours as we go to air, this guy, an Afghanistan native and U.S. naturalized citizen, has
been arrested after he shoots police, being taken down, Ahmad Khan Rahami, just 28 years old, directly linked to the bombs.
You know, back to Matt Zapotosky, national security reporter with "The Washington Post." How were the bombs similar?
ZAPOTOSKY: Well, the bombs had some similarities but also some differences. The bombs in New York, you described them a little bit
earlier -- my understanding is they were pressure cookers that were full of shrapnel, you know, full of little metal bits that are designed to do
maximum damage. And that`s similar to the ones you saw in Boston.
In New Jersey, my understanding is they were -- they were pipe bombs. Now, you know, both designed to hurt people, not sort of just prankish, as we
know now, and both put in places designed to hurt people. You know, in the middle of Chelsea is a place that would potentially do maximum damage,
along a race route in New Jersey, potentially even scarier, just sort of lucky...
GRACE: Right.
ZAPOTOSKY: ... that that one was averted.
GRACE: You know, I want to follow up on something you said. Bert Baron, morning show host WCTC -- pressure cooker bombs. I want to talk to you
about the similarities in these various bombs. These were by no means a prank. Look what happened to one of the dumpsters under which this bomb
was held.
If it would do that to a steel dumpster, what would it do to humans that were nearby? It would kill them.
BARON: Oh, without a doubt.
GRACE: Almost 30 victims.
BARON: The point of these devices, obviously, is to kill and maim and injure as many people as possible. And let`s face it, this was the Chelsea
neighborhood in New York City in lower Manhattan. If he was going for big numbers of casualties, you could pick a Times Square or you could pick Penn
Station, which on a Saturday night in New York City would have scores of more and more people.
But maybe he picked this one thinking it was a little bit more of a soft target. Maybe there wouldn`t be the police presence or the readily
available video surveillance, which obviously, he was wrong. But maybe that was why he chose these sort of soft targets.
And also, this town at the Jersey shore. Everyone`s gone home for the summertime. You know, typically, in New Jersey, the shore is filled with
out-of-towners, but after Labor Day, everybody goes home.
So I mean, fortunately, the bomb did not go off at the time that it was set to, or there would have been much more injuries during this 5K. But this
was not really -- you know, you look at these targets, they weren`t going to take out big numbers of people.
GRACE: Also with me, Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert. How can a flip phone be used to detonate bombs?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT (via telephone): Well, Nancy, you know, to set up an explosion, you need a small charge that`s going to set
off the big charge. That small charge is a detonator.
Now, with a suicide bomber, they may have a switch, basically, a button that connects to a battery, and that battery gives you that small charge
that creates that big explosion. That`s what you do with a -- you know, a suicide bomber.
What these guys are doing is using a cell phone. They will attach the cell phone to the bomb. When a cell phone rings, it creates an electric charge
that`s strong enough to set off that detonator, and it allows you to do it remotely, Nancy. So you could do it from anywhere.
The benefit is we recovered one of these phones before they were exploded. So we knew all the phone numbers that called that phone, and we could
connect all this together, Nancy.
[20:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A kidnapped woman, terrified her kidnapper lying right there beside her would wake up, makes a desperate 911 call, leading cops to not only her
but to at least three more dead bodies of women once presumed missing, now known dead at the hands of an alleged serial killer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 911 call from a woman being held in this house against her will.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there any way you can get out of the building?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know without waking him and I`m scared.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When police arrived, they discovered the victim and the dead bodies and two other women. The suspect then admitted to a
different murder telling police he killed another woman in June and left her body in the woods.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:35:00] GRACE: The way this unfolded is chilling. The 911 call, which we have obtained is so scary. To hear this woman afraid to even move as her
kidnapper lying there beside her, she`s being kidnapped and held against her will. She has been bleeding. She is hurting and she thinks he is going
to stun gun her.
He`s got a stun gun with him as he is sleeping, but she makes the move to actually get her hands on his cell phone and call 911. And what unfolded
after that is incredible. Now, the body count is at three dead bodies and a possible fourth, and I guarantee you, that`s not the end. We`re going to
find more dead women. But I want you to hear this 911 call that cracked the case wide open.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911. What is the address to your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: By the 4th Street, laundromat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s the problem?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve been abducted.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who abducted you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shawn Grate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where`s he at now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Asleep.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where`s he sleeping at?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the bedroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In what bedroom?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s two houses right by the laundry street and it`s in one of those houses.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But you`re at the laundromat?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I`m in the bedroom with him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What color is the house? If I`m looking at the laundromat, which way is it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you`re looking in the laundromat it`s the one on the left of the two.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know what color the house is?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. Please hurry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you pick out the yellow house?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think so. It`s on the left.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it an apartment?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, it`s a house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, does he own the house?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, he broke into it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does anybody actually live there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it`s been abandoned.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does he have a weapon?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s got a Taser.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What does he look like? Is he a white male or a black male?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: White.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is he like 6 foot or is he shorter than that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s like 6`1", 6`2".
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know how much he weighs?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Probably 175.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is he wearing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where did he take you from?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My apartment, I mean I was walking with him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You were walking with him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mmm hmm.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where were you walking to?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: his place -- I`ve known him for like a month and a half.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Can you imagine? This woman beside her sleeping kidnapper who has a stun gun with him, trying to call 911. Little did she know she would very
likely have been his next murder victim. Melissa Neeley joining us from WLW, tell me how this whole thing unfolded, Melissa.
MELISSA NEELEY, WLW 700 ANCHOR/REPORTER: Well, this is something that the police have been investigating actually for a very long time, and they have
had two women were murdered that they found and then the third body and then a fourth and now possibly a fifth. So, this has been an ongoing
investigation and what a break in this case due to this 911 call.
You know, Stacey Newman, the way it unfolded is they get this 911 call from a woman who is right there beside her kidnapper trying to call 911, afraid
he`s going to wake up and kill her or stun her with the Taser and when they get there, they find two dead bodies in that house alone. And then find out
about more. Tell me how it unfolded, Stacey.
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, as you said, after this chilling 911 call, the police arrived and find two more women, both have
been missing for some time, dead there in the home.
Shortly after his arrest, he leads them about 12 miles away to a piece of property where another woman`s body is found and she is so decomposed they
have yet to still identify her.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Randy Kessler joining us; Trinity Hundredmark as well, both defense attorneys. Randy Kessler, if he is in the home with
this woman and two dead bodies, and then leads them to a third dead body, apparently there are more, Randy, how could he possibly defend himself?
What`s the defense?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean, I`d have to talk to him. We got to figure out, you know there`s going to be a psychologist involved.
You know there`s going to be mental health defense. And you know there`s going to be -- if he`s cooperated and lead them to the bodies maybe there`s
some mitigation. This is a case about sentencing. It`s going to be hard, hard case to defend, liability, criminal intent ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Trinity, any idea on a defense?
TRINITY HUNDREDMARK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Nancy, I think all you can do is look to the people he`s been around. I think there`s some
testimony from other people that he`s been around, some other drug addicts that we don`t know anything about this girl. Maybe she was involved in the
other two murders ...
(CROSSTALK)
[20:40:00] GRACE: OK, you know what?
HUNDREDMARK: ... maybe she was involved with that.
GRACE: ... stop, right there. We`re trying to drag the victim in it. She`s the one who called 911.
HUNDREDMARK: But we don`t know, Nancy. Yeah, she did, but it`s right at the very beginning we don`t know anything. I mean, we don`t -- we don`t
know anything about any of these other people.
GRACE: OK. That is unique. That`s unique, trying to blame the kidnapped victim and say she was somehow responsible. Joining me right now ...
(CROSSTALK)
HUNDREDMARK: But we don`t know that she`s telling the truth.
GRACE: ... is Kurtis Stanley who is the son of one of this guy`s alleged murder victims, Stacey Stanley. Kurtis, thank you for being with us. I
understand your mom apparently had car trouble or a flat tire and she ...
KURTIS STANLEY, SON OF MURDER VICTIM, STACEY STANLEY: Yes.
GRACE: ... called and said that and the next thing you know, she disappeared.
STANLEY: Yes. That`s correct.
GRACE: And you reported her missing. What happened?
STANLEY: Well, she called us Thursday night, it was the last time anybody in our family spoke to her would be my brother at 10:45 Thursday night.
We had sent somebody up there to help her change her tire and the next thing you know, there`s a guy already helping her. So they got the tire put
together and my friend left. My mom offered Shawn a ride home and got him a coffee and so she took him home and that`s the last time anybody has ever
heard from her.
GRACE: Did you report -- was she reported missing?
STANLEY: Yeah, she was reported missing.
GRACE: It`s my understanding, police seemed to think that there had been no foul play, that she just taken off on her own. And you knew that was not
true.
STANLEY: Yes, that is correct. The police didn`t seem that -- think that we were just, she did it willingly, and it was not true.
GRACE: Absolutely not true. I mean, If I didn`t show up from work tonight and the police -- what if they said, oh, you know she`s probably run off
with a boyfriend. Why does everybody think the victim has run off with a boyfriend? Kurtis Stanley goes, he reports his mom missing. He tells them
what happened and now we learn there are more bodies cropping up. Listen to this 911 call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there any way you can get out of the building?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know without waking him and I`m scared.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: is there a bathroom in the house?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His bedroom is closed and he made it so it would make noise.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you told him you want to go to the bathroom he would do something to you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah. Because he had me tied up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you tied up now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah, but I kind of freed myself.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is he in the same room with you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it his phone you have?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Are they on the way?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have officers responding.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please send them up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She still felt much closer to death. If these walls could talk ...
(PHONE RINGING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... like the woman calling 911, they might instead shiver.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s the problem?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve been abducted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This woman was this close to being the next murder victim. To Stacey Newman, now we`re finding out about more bodies. This one was --
these two were in an abandoned home that was owned by a church outreach ministry. They said it was padlocked and they checked it every week.
Well, apparently, they didn`t notice the two dead bodies in there. OK. Then about 30, 40 minutes away, there is another home, abandoned, a structure
abandoned, with a dead body in it. OK. Now, what can you tell me about a new dead body of a female found at a dumpster site?
NEWMAN: Well, there`s actually two more cases now, because one of them is a woman who reportedly, the suspect has confessed, that he killed her back
in 2005, her body turned up in 2007.
Then we have another case of a woman named Rebecca. The circumstances of her death were still, like, being investigated. It was unsolved. Now,
police are telling us they have reopened that investigation connected to this suspect.
GRACE: So, all in, we`ve got the two dead bodies found with this kidnap victim, the body in the burned out house, the body at the dumpster. That`s
four dead bodies. Am I missing one?
NEWMAN: No, you`re not missing one, but I will say we might actually end up seeing more because ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Put Stacey up.
NEWMAN: ... we know we`re going to follow his trail.
GRACE: Put Stacey up. Stacey, you and I have been in this business together for a long time. OK. Think about it, Stace, 2005, he admits to a
murder of a woman. I forgot -- that she was selling magazines door-to-door and I guess he felt compelled to murder her. I`m sure after assaulting her,
and dumps her body at a dumpster site. She`s found 2007.
Do you really think, Stace, that he took a break, a little hiatus from his murder streak between 2005 and 2016? Uh-uh. N-O. No. There are more bodies
out there. Because that`s his nature. That`s his nature.
NEWMAN: Yes. And we also have heard he has a history as well of being a little violent, we know he was married at one time, got divorced, and after
the divorce, his wife had to file a restraining order because he was threatening her.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Randy Kessler and Trinity Hundredmark. Also joining me, Eris Huemer, psychotherapist, divorcedoctor.com.
First to you, Randy Kessler. He already has two kidnappings, a burglary under his belt where he held his wife and another woman at knifepoint with
a butcher knife. Why is he even out walking around?
[20:50:00] KESSLER: Well, you know, that`s what he didn`t get sentenced to, it depends on the system. But this time -- you know, this time he`s not
going to get out. The question is how long is he going to go away for? I don`t know ...
GRACE: How many people do you have to kill ...
(CROSSTALK)
KESSLER: You know what?
GRACE: ... to murder, to get the death penalty?
(CROSSTALK)
KESSLER: You know, I hate to say this, but let`s hope that some other murders are solved. You know ...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK, stop.
KESSLER: ... people are already gone.
GRACE: Let`s just hope there are not any more dead bodies. Dr. Eris Huemer, Psychotherapist, how is it that he has managed to trick everybody?
IN fact, he said, "I`m starting a new job as a maintenance man at Holiday Inn. Can`t wait." He posted that. What about this guy`s fumbling around
through your hotel room, waiting for you to come back in, doctor?
DR. ERIS HUEMER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, this is one of the biggest concerns of people who are sociopaths. They can have a lot of charm, they
can influence people. They come with , you know, they are gifted with good looks, and so women can become very attracted to them and follow their
lead. They`re grandiose. They can manipulate you in any sort of way and then all of a sudden you have a kidnapping and you`re trapped and then it
can lead to murder.
GRACE: Dr. Sean Enloe, Forensic Pathologist with us. Dr. Enloe, how can we connect these women up?
DR. SEAN ENLOE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: It sort of depends upon what they find. There may be evidence that the murders were committed with the same
weapon or tools. There may be things that link him to more than one site. It just depends on what the bodies tell us.
GRACE: Right now, everyone, we are hearing about a frantic search for a missing Florida mother and toddler girl in danger. Michael Christian, when
did Melanie and Lily disappear?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: On Saturday, Nancy, they were reported missing. They were visiting Melanie`s mother in Palm City,
Florida. That`s about 35 miles north of West Palm Beach.
GRACE: Guys, please help us. Look at the tipline, 772-220-7060.
Michael, do police have any idea where the missing mom and daughter could be?
CHRISTIAN: They think that they may be in the company of a 46-year-old man named Chester Smith. He`s apparently an acquaintance of Melanie Reichard,
and possibly they could be traveling to Tennessee in a silver Chrysler PT Cruiser.
GRACE: Please help us, 772-220-7060.
[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve been abducted.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who abducted you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shawn Grate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A man who she said lied there in bed, sleeping next to her, naked.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you tied up now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah, but I kind of freed myself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Behind a barricaded door without a handle, unspeakable things had happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And now, the police have uncovered, we believe, four dead bodies with this woman likely to be the next victim. All court legal eagles
suspecting there will be more.
So Melissa Neeley with WLW, what is his M.O.? How does he get these women?
NEELEY: Well, I know at least one of the victims that we have learned about, she was delivering magazines or newspapers to neighbors of his, and
he became enraged because she wasn`t delivering them to his house. And he thought it was best to end her life over that situation.
So we know at least in one case. We know in another case that it may have been some type of overdose situation. So right now, it doesn`t seem like
there is a connection to all of the cases other than that right now they`re all women.
GRACE: I also think he does have an M.O. that is connected. He seems to gravitate toward women in his area, like he tried to pick up a mother and a
daughter outside of a laundromat.
He saw the one woman, Stacey, her son with us tonight, after she had a flat tire. He seized his own opportunities. That`s my take on it.
I want to go to Randy Kessler and Trinity Hundredmark. Take off your hat for just a moment, your defense hat. Randy, can you see the similarities in
the M.O.? They`re like crimes of opportunity, really.
KESSLER: Not only that, look, we also handle a lot of family law, and there are people that are just control freaks and when someone doesn`t
behave or doesn`t do what they want, they take over and they do whatever they can to exert their control. And, you know, physical strength is the
ultimate way to show control, and that may be what we`re dealing with.
GRACE: Yeah. And Kurtis Stanley, I want you to know our prayers have been with you to find out if this is what has become of your mom. I would like
to give you the final word.
STANLEY: It`s just heartbreaking. I didn`t think that I`ve ever -- I didn`t get to tell my mom goodbye or I love her or anything like that. I
thought she would be coming home to me so I`ll see her the next day or for my daughter to spend another day with her. I mean, she`s such a wonderful
woman, and just for him to take her from me, I don`t think I`ll ever get closure. He took the closure from me and my mother.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s pause to remember and honor American hero Officer Jason Falconer, saving lives in the Minnesota mall stabbing spree. Falconer
was off-duty, shopping, when the suspect enters Crossroads Center, stabbing multiple victims. Falconer also attacked when he opens fire, gunning down
the armed suspect. Jason Falconer, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace, signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp, Eastern. And
until then, goodnight friend.
[21:00:00]
END
