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Out in the Open
Bin Laden's New Message to America; Mother of Madeleine McCann Now Suspect in Disappearance; Iraq Vets Loose Jobs; Francois Langur Monkey
Aired September 07, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Obviously, breaking news all over bin Laden.
But I also want you to do this. Look into that mother's eyes. Are these the eyes of a victim or a killer?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Did she do it?
KATE MCCANN, MOTHER OF MADELEINE MCCANN: We beg you to let Madeleine come home.
SANCHEZ: Will she take the deal?
He's alive, and talking global warming, mortgages, taxes, congressional Democrats, JFK? And what is with the beard?
She can turn anything into a bestseller. Can she put him here?
Should a pocketknife in a car ruin a student's life, or is this another prosecutor run amuck?
And do you see what the would-be robber missed? Uh-oh. He is OUT IN THE OPEN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: And breaking news is how we are going to begin this newscast tonight, because there is a lot going on, folks.
Hi, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez.
All right. Here we go.
Next Tuesday is the anniversary of 9/11. That is significant because tonight the man responsible for 9/11 is sending us another new video. This is the first, though, in three years. Consider that.
This is what it looks like anyway. I mean, this is what it looks like on paper, obviously. Much of it is on tape. This answers and it also poses an awful lot of questions. We are going to try and break this down for you.
We are going to begin with our justice correspondent, Kelli Arena.
Kelli, thanks for joining us.
I guess first things first. And I guess American people would want to know this, so let's ask it right at the very top. Does he on this tape articulate any direct threat against us?
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: No, he does not make any overt threat in this message. U.S. officials say there's no plan to change our security stance because of this tape.
His message is actually more symbolic, Rick, but he does talk a lot about the Iraq war and he does say that one of the ways to end it is to escalate the killing and the fighting. So, that is not good.
SANCHEZ: But people would look at this and want to know right away, well, does this really offer the proof positive that he is still alive? Does it?
ARENA: Yes. You know, intelligence officials say that they did a technical analysis and it does prove that this is bin Laden's voice.
And another point is that it also seems to be recent, Rick, which is very important because as you know there was a lot of speculation that he may have died. He refers in the tape to a news report from Iraq that aired in July. He refers to the 62nd anniversary of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, which was just this past August.
In another passage, talking about the Iraq War, he names the new French president, the new British prime minister, and then he says, in a quote, "They still talk about freedom and human rights with a flagrant disregard for the intellect of human beings."
Overall, Rick, the message here: I'm alive. I'm well and I am up on what is going on.
SANCHEZ: Hold on a minute, Kelli. Stay with us, because I am being told now in the control room that is there a response to bin Laden from President Bush, which seems somewhat curious, because there was a time when there was not a response.
How is this coming in, Jeff? Do we have this on tape? Just on tape? Let's go ahead and go to that then.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The tape is a reminder about the dangerous world in which we live. And it is a reminder that we must work together to protect our peoples against these extremists who murder the innocent in order the achieve their political objectives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: You know, I can't remember, Kelli, every time, what the president of the White House's or the administration's response has been to them, but I don't recall the president responding as quickly to a tape like this. Do you?
ARENA: Well, he was in a forum in which he had to. But the White House does put out spokesmen fairly regularly usually to say, look, this is proof that these guys are still after us.
SANCHEZ: Yes, but didn't the president, wasn't the president once also quoted -- and help me out here -- I know this is coming into us now, so we will go into it somewhat. The president was also once quoted as saying he doesn't matter anymore; he is out there; we have got bigger concerns than Osama bin Laden.
ARENA: Well, they say a lot of things about al Qaeda. Remember when we said two-thirds of the leadership was captured and it was devastated, and then all of the sudden we heard that they had reconstituted themselves along that Pakistan/Afghanistan border, that they had a safe haven, and that they were growing stronger?
So obviously this is a very much a moving target, and the way that the administration has described, you know, this group and this man has changed dramatically over the years.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
ARENA: The reality is, Rick, that he is very relevant. He still embodies this -- al Qaeda. He is the inspiration. He is the leader of this group. And the jihadi Web sites all along were saying, where is he? We need to hear from him.
And they have heard from him, and that is something that the terror experts say will definitely rally the troops.
SANCHEZ: Yes. We have got a couple of experts, as a matter of fact. They are going to take off on the very thing that you were just talking about.
As usual, great job, Kelli Arena, topping our newscast with even new information that we're getting.
Let's do this now. Follow me over here if you can, because we are going to back this up a little bit. I guess we can call this the many faces of Osama bin Laden. That is today's tape. You're looking at it right there over the shoulder, probably made last month. Everybody is making a big deal about the fact that he is wearing that black beard.
Now let's go to October 2004. That is when this is released. This is just before the United States' presidential election. So that was the significance in time of that. Now let's go to September 2003. This is bin Laden in the mountains. This is when he called for jihad, or holy war, with Zawahri, as a matter of fact, pretty much saying the same thing, if you can recall. In fact, I think he was still in that picture.
Now let's come over here, finally. This is probably the most ominous shot that we have ever had to deal with or reckon with in this country. This is the smoking gun. The Pentagon released it December 2001, bin Laden essentially confirming, bragging that he was the one responsible for the 9/11 attacks.
So, those are the faces. Now let's talk about the ideas. Have they changed at all?
Let's bring in a couple of experts. Terrorism analyst Peter Bergen is joining us now. He interviewed bin Laden back in the 1990s. Obviously, that is significant and a good reason to talk to him. CNN national security adviser John McLaughlin is joining us as well. He is a former deputy director of the CIA.
Gentlemen, thanks for being with us.
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Thank you.
JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Hey. Good evening, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Peter, let's start with you and let's cut to the proverbial chase here. Did you hear in bin Laden's words a call to arms for his followers?
BERGEN: Not really, because he is not very bellicose in this particular interview. And in fact, one thing that is sort of surprising about the content of all this, Rick, is that it reads like a sort of leftist critique of the United States and its political system.
He mentions Chomsky. It's a sort of neo-Chomskyite critique of the American political system, no real call to arms of the type we have seen in the past, also not really very religious in tone. There are, of course, religious references, but often, usually, bin Laden salts his whole speeches with a lot of references to the Koran and various Islamic thinkers. So, it was kind of a strange -- he even mentions the Kyoto treaty at one point, so a kind of unusual, very politicized diatribe from bin Laden this time.
SANCHEZ: It's interesting. He mentions not only Chomsky, but several critics of the Bush administration.
Let's go, Will and Jeff in the control room, if you could. I want to see how these gentlemen respond to these words. These are bin Laden's words here. Let's put up on the screen, if we got them.
About the war, he says: "There are two solutions to stopping it." I guess he means the aggression with the United States. "The first from our side is that we continue to escalate the killing and fighting against you."
I guess that is as close to a threat as anything he said, right, John?
MCLAUGHLIN: That is exactly right. That is as close as he comes to a threat.
Other than that particular aggressive statement, Peter is right. It reads a little bit like a blog entry written by a committee. There are all kinds of references in here that looks to me like someone would stand up in a room and say, hey, why don't we refer to the mortgage crisis? Why don't we refer to Noam Chomsky?
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Why? Because he wants us to know that he is current and that this is something that happened just last month? Is that why he puts that in there?
MCLAUGHLIN: Well, he tries to come across as a statesman. He tries to come across as someone who is equivalent to leadership in countries and in other movements.
So, yes, he is trying to give the impression that he is very current. And as Peter has noted a number of times, he is a news junkie. It is not clear to us whether he is reading all of this directly on the Internet or whether someone is going to an Internet cafe and bringing him back sources, printing out stuff for him. But he clearly is well informed.
SANCHEZ: Well, but you raise a good question.
And, maybe, Peter -- I don't know, whichever one of you can answer this the best.
Peter, I will try with you.
How does he do this? How does he get a tape like this out when he is being hunted by the most powerful country on Earth with the biggest army?
BERGEN: Well, there is no really substantial U.S. presence in Pakistan, where he is almost certainly likely to be.
And Pakistan is a large country, and, as you can see from these pictures, a rather rugged one. And also, this is the first videotape in three years. So, here we see him with Ayman al-Zawahri. Ayman al- Zawahri is releasing more videotapes than Britney Spears at this point.
Bin Laden has been pretty careful, because he knows that the chain of custody of these audiotapes and videotapes is the one way to find him. And I think they have just made this agreement that bin Laden the leader will not take the risk of releasing a lot of tapes, and Ayman al-Zawahri will -- he's now releasing sometimes two tapes in one week.
So, Zawahri is taking the risk. Bin Laden is sort of receding into the background a little bit, and coming out just occasionally with these tapes to remind everybody that he is out there.
SANCHEZ: So should Americans increase their nervousness over this or reduce it, and not only with this bin Laden tape and with the Chertoff warnings that he made early this summer, some time around July, but also with this?
Go to this, guys. Let's listen now to CIA director Michael Hayden talking at the Council on Foreign Relations today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL HAYDEN, CIA DIRECTOR: Our analysts assess with high confidence that Al-Qaeda's central leadership is planning high impact plots against the American homeland.
Second, those same analysts assess, again, with high confidence, that al Qaeda has protected or regenerated key elements of its homeland attack capability.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: I guess I can give you about 20 seconds each.
John, we will begin with you. Is that right?
MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
In fact, I think you would find substantially the same thing said in things that both Peter and I have written and said over the last year or so. I think there is a broad consensus among experts that that is right.
SANCHEZ: Wow.
Peter, same with you?
BERGEN: Yes. And it is absolutely...
SANCHEZ: Going to happen?
BERGEN: Well, I mean, it is not necessarily going to happen, but there is no news that they are planning to attack the American homeland. The question is, what are their capabilities?
In my view, their capabilities are still pretty degraded. Even though they have resuscitated themselves in the last two years, if you look at the kinds of attacks, whether the attempt in Frankfurt or the attempt to bring down American airliners in Britain last summer, those plans were in countries other than the United States. And they would have been spectacular against American targets, but they were not actually against the homeland directly, because I think al Qaeda recognizes it does not have the people to do it here, necessarily, where it does have the people in places like Britain and Germany.
SANCHEZ: Two guys who know this business as well as anybody. We really thank you for sharing your insight with us. Peter Bergen, John McLaughlin, thanks.
MCLAUGHLIN: Thanks, Rick.
Time for our video pics. Of course, car chases usually worth about 30, 40 seconds. We have got it for you. Here we go.
This guy, police say, has been all over the road. They have trying to stop him. So they are going to come up here now and you are going to see in one of the images coming up here -- go ahead and take it full, if you would.
That is when they're going to come up. First, he shoots the tire out. Then he tries to stop the guy. He finally puts his hands up, and they are able to drag him out of the car without having to fire any other shots. That is the story, more like it coming up in just a little bit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
K. MCCANN: Please, please, please do not hurt her. Please don't scare her. Please tell us where to find her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: She sounds distraught, but is she telling the truth? Coming up, a shocking twist in the mystery of the little girl's disappearance.
Later, the Oprah effect, it works for books. What about for presidential candidates?
And this bank robber is missing something. Do you see what it might be? And it is a good thing. We are going to tell you exactly what happens here. As a matter of fact, it is kind of violent.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We welcome you back now to a story now that turned on a dime this morning, and it seems people all over the world are talking about it.
Tonight, the parents who begged, even prayed with the pope, for the release of their daughter are suddenly suspects, themselves, in their daughter's disappearance.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Look into Kate McCann's eyes. Is she telling the truth?
K. MCCANN: Please, please, do not hurt her. Please do not scare her. Please tell us where to find her or put her in a place of safety, and let somebody know where she is. We beg you to let Madeleine come home.
SANCHEZ: "She" is little Madeleine McCann. In fact, this is the very last picture of her taken May 3 just hours before she disappeared. And this shot is from today.
There, in the circle, is the woman that you just looked in the eye, Madeleine's mother. She is now a suspect in her own daughter's disappearance, although she has not been charged with anything and has always maintained her innocence.
How did it come to this?
Flashback to spring. Madeleine, her younger brother and sister and her parents, Gerry and Kate, both doctors, by the way, head from England to a resort in Portugal. May 3, the couple goes to dinner, leaving the kids in the hotel room just 300 feet away. When Kate goes to check on them, she says, Madeleine is missing.
Police search the resort. The disappearance becomes international news, flyers, interviews, a special Web site, a $2 million award. The McCanns travel worldwide, doing more interviews. They even meet with the pope. May turns to June, then July. The couple criticizes authorities' handling of the case, but in August a break.
Investigators find traces of Madeleine's blood in the resort's hotel room. This week, Madeleine's parents are back in Portugal for questioning. A family spokesperson now says investigators found Madeleine's blood in a car the couple rented 25 days after the disappearance. Kate McCann questioned for 11 hours yesterday and even more today. Part of the talks, a deal offered by police to cop to an accidental killing.
Gerry's sister says this is what Kate has been offered.
PHILOMENA MCCANN, AUNT OF MADELEINE K. MCCANN: If you say that you killed Madeleine by accident and then hid her and then disposed of the body, then we can guarantee you a two-year jail sentence.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: What an amazing turn of events, huh?
Madeleine's mom, by the way, and dad have spent a lot of time being questioned today.
CNN's Alphonso Van Marsh, he's in Portugal. In fact, he is just outside that police station.
Alphonso, what is the latest to come out of these, I guess, can I them interrogations? Is that what they are?
ALPHONSO VAN MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly a series of questioning by the authorities, both Gerry McCann, the father, Kate McCann, as you mentioned, the mother.
The latest in this very twisting case, Rick, about an hour ago, as you mentioned, behind me, over there, we saw Gerry McCann come out of the police station, his family spokesman confirming that police are now considering him as a suspect as well.
It is important to note that, again, this information coming from the family spokesman, that they have not been charged with any crime, and there are no conditions for bail. However, the police are now considering both the mother and the father of Madeleine McCann as suspects in her disappearance. SANCHEZ: Down to 20 seconds, Alphonso, important question for you though. They have been offered a deal. Are they considering it? Is there any talk that they might strike some kind of deal? What do you know?
VAN MARSH: Well, what we know that is reported from British broadcaster ITN, according to the sister of the husband, the father, Mr. McCann, that Kate McCann has been offered a deal, again, according to the family, none of this confirmed by police.
If she does do that, she may get as many as two years in prison -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: Alphonso Van Marsh, following the story for us there in Portugal, if anything changes at any time, let us know. We will hook you up and put you right back on the air. Thank you.
What a story.
Let's try and break this down for you now.
Joining us, Court TV anchor Lisa Bloom and J. Buzz Von Ornsteiner.
You are a forensic psychologist, right?
J. BUZZ VON ORNSTEINER, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes.
SANCHEZ: That means that you would be able to judge someone's personality after looking at them.
So, let's do this. I want to break down a couple of videos for you. These are the one that we have seen of them so far.
VON ORNSTEINER: OK.
SANCHEZ: ... especially her, Kate.
Let's start with you this one, Will, if you would.
This is Kate talking about her daughter not being scared. Go ahead and play that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
K. MCCANN: Please, please, do not hurt her. Please do not scare her. Please tell us where to find her or put her in a place of safety, and let somebody know where she is. We beg you to let Madeleine come home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: What are your general observations, not just with this particular video, but since you have been following the story, about her, about Kate?
VON ORNSTEINER: Sure.
This is a woman who I believe is full of grief. And she is highly emotional. She's trying to keep those emotions in check, because, if she shows too much emotion, she will decompensate. And I know that is hard for people to believe, because, if our children had been taken, we would be up there screaming and yelling.
We would be hypervigilant. We would want to try to connect with people. We would try to connect with the kidnappers. But this is a woman with that stiff upper lip, who hasn't slept, hasn't ate. And grief is highly individual. I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt.
SANCHEZ: Well, let me tell you this. If someone asked myself or perhaps somebody else in our audience who is listening to this right now whether they had done something or whether there is any evidence having to do with the death of their son or daughter, like forensic evidence in the next example that I am going to show you, I would think the answer would be a little more direct, almost like outrage, like, hell no, I would never do something like that.
But look at how he reacts when he is asked this question.
Go ahead, Will. Go with this one now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GERRY MCCANN, FATHER OF MADELEINE MCCANN: Can't comment on any specifics and forensics. And we wouldn't do that. We would never, never, ever jeopardize the investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: He almost seems detached, Doctor.
VON ORNSTEINER: That detachment could be based on just trying to keep some emotional control in your life, because you are not going to lose it. You want to show that you are emotionally calm.
If you do connect, if you do show any emotion, you are afraid of cracking. You are afraid of completely decompensating. You don't want that. You want to be there for your child.
I hear what you are saying. Believe me. People expect people to cry...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Look, especially the eyes. I hear other forensic psychologists -- and including yourself in certain circumstances -- say, if you watch somebody's eyes, and they're looking and darting all over the room, there is usually something there.
VON ORNSTEINER: We expect people to act logically and reasonably when faced with these stressful, horrific situations. But people just always don't follow and go by the book. People are individual. Grief is individual. Depression is individual. And when these horrific crimes happen to people, people just don't always follow and go by the book. We want to see that. We want to see grief. We want to see people emotionally and volatile, but in this situation, I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt.
SANCHEZ: Because there's so many other things that are going on at the time?
VON ORNSTEINER: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Let's talk about some of those other things. Here is what we know right now.
They are saying -- and these are allegations -- that there may have been blood found in the apartment, that there may have been blood found in a car. And now they're talking, Lisa, about the possibility of striking some kind of deal, maybe saying to her, if you say that it was an accident, we will give you two years.
LISA BLOOM, COURT TV ANCHOR: Yes.
Well, blood found in the apartment is Madeleine's. That doesn't tell us who abducted her. Blood found in the car rented by the mother 25 days after her disappearance is highly suspicious. The mother says this must be a mistake. It's impossible that Madeleine's blood would be in that car.
SANCHEZ: Is there any explanation for that, by the way?
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: There's no good explanation, no. Because how could Madeleine's blood get in the car 25 days after her disappearance, unless her body was moved by the parents?
By the way, they have been followed by cameras ever since her disappearance. Hard to imagine how they would do that, right? The blood could have been planted. It could be a mistake in a lab. Those are the only possible explanations. Or they are somehow guilty.
As for the deal, look, these prosecutors also initially said that a man named Robert Murat was a suspect. It turns out that was flat- out wrong. They have made a lot of mistakes in this investigation. I think we should be very careful before we jump to any conclusions against these parents.
SANCHEZ: There is one other report. And it seems to suggest from a newspaper there in Portugal that they have found some type of sedative in the apartment, leading to the suggestion that she may have somehow been accidentally overdosed.
BLOOM: Yes, again, more speculation. Who was taking the sedative? Maybe the mother was taking the sedative maybe after her daughter's disappearance, which might explain why she looks a little bit flat on camera.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: You both are suspicious about the suspicions. And we respect that.
(LAUGHTER)
BLOOM: Yes.
SANCHEZ: We thank you both.
BLOOM: Thanks.
SANCHEZ: Lisa Bloom and J. Buzz Von Ornseiner, thanks for being with us.
VON ORNSTEINER: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: And this: How big is an Oprah Winfrey endorsement? Is it big enough to push him, the guy on the right, in front of her, the gal on the left? Some say it is inevitable. We will break down the Oprah factor later.
One of the authors on Osama's reading list, has it helped its sales figures? He will join us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back to OUT IN THE OPEN. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Senator Barack Obama, there he is, running second to Senator Hillary Clinton in all the Democratic presidential polls. In fact, we have got one of them. Just check out CNN's latest poll of polls. This is where we factor them all in for you. It puts Clinton at 42 percent, Obama 24 percent. And there is Edwards bringing up the rear at 13 percent.
But here is the real important poll. It is all about women, with Oprah Winfrey here, right? Where does he stand with women? Democratic women favor Clinton 51 percent to Obama's 21 percent. This is a national poll, right, or is this New Hampshire? Yes, it's national.
So, he gets to get those women on his side. And tomorrow, Obama's not-so-secret weapon is going to be kicking in. There she is on the left, Oprah Winfrey. She is going to host a $3 million fund- raiser for Obama at her California estate, something like 42 acres, by the way, in case you didn't know.
And that is peanuts, because what really she can deliver for Obama is not just cash, but people, followers, hordes of them. Her TV show alone reaches about eight million Americans every single weekday.
Look at what she has done for like authors. Her book club helped sell more than one million books. And she can turn people into stars. Dr. Phil, right? Need we say more?
So, will Oprah pay off politically for Obama?
Let's start off by going to our senior political analyst, who has looking into this, Bill Schneider.
Is Oprah capable of being a king-maker?
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, you know, the key word here is personal.
Oprah's relationship with her audience is personal, which, really, as you described it, a following. Well, Barack Obama's message, his campaign, is highly personal. He is selling himself, not really his ideology. So, when Oprah Winfrey says, "I like Barack Obama and I trust him," she is helping him sell himself and maybe cut into Hillary Clinton's very strong support among women, because they are her core audience.
SANCHEZ: Two-part question.
First of all, do you hear she actually will gone on the stump with him? And, if she does, how big would that be?
SCHNEIDER: OK. Well, sources close to the Obama campaign, we checked with them, said that there is a chance that they are discussing the chance that she might play a more visible role in the campaign, although they added there's no definite plan, yet. So maybe we'll see her at the campaign rallies, maybe in, my goodness, TV ads. Could it be effective? I'll put it this way, Oprah Winfrey is the second most admired woman in America, according to a December Gallup Poll. Who's the first? That would be Hillary Clinton.
SANCHEZ: Final question, the women who watch Oprah's TV show, are they voters?
SCHNEIDER: A lot of them are, yes. A lot of them are women between the ages of 20 and 55, and they are very disproportionately represented among Democratic Party voters and these are democratic primaries we're talking about, primaries and caucuses, so yeah, they can come out to vote. It hasn't been tested yet. She has never endorsed a candidate before, this is a first, so we're going to see if she can sell a candidate as effectively as she can sell books.
SANCHEZ: Bill Schneider, thank you for joining us and sharing tin sight as usual.
Let's continue with this. Joining us now, best-selling author Keith Boykin, he's a former White House aide to President Clinton, now hosts "My Two Cents" on BET.
Go ahead, smile. There you go.
Robert Thompson professor of TV and Popular Culture at Syracuse University, he's going to be joining us as well. And "Chicago Tribune" media columnist, Phil Rosenthal. My thanks to all of you for being with us.
You know, I'm going to start this off a little differently. Robert, I was thinking about this last night. This is kind of a gutsy move for Oprah, isn't it? I mean, isn't there some risk involved, here?
PROF ROBERT THOMPSON, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY: Well, there is. I mean, clearly this could be really good for Barack Obama, she can bring fund-raising, she can bring vote raising. Anybody who can make tens of thousands of Americans read Faulkner, Faulkner! Who knows, but electing a president would be nothing. However, this could be a problem, I think, on both sides. For one thing if I were Barack Obama's people, I would be really worried about getting too cozy here, after all he wants to be running for president of the United States, he doesn't want to be the next Dr. Phil. He doesn't look like he -- want to look like he's just another one of the Oprah franchises that she's got going out there.
And I think that if I were going against this, if I were in the opposition to Obama, I would be hitting hard this notion of Oprah the puppet master, Oprah the king-maker, all of these kinds of things, and secondly, you got to make sure you don't make her mad. She made James Frye and then proceeded to shred him into a million little pieces.
SANCHEZ: You better quit smoking, like tomorrow, then.
Hey, you know, that's an interesting topic. Phil, let me bring you into this. What if he becomes a real hit with her followers, as the correspondent Bill Schneider called them just a little while ago, but they say that's great, we love the guy, but we don't want him as president. I mean, we'll put him on the show as co-anchor with her, but maybe not as president?
PHIL ROSENTHAL, MEDIA COLUMNIST, CHICAGO TRIBUNE: Well, I think that's it and I think if you look at what Oprah has succeeded in selling, it's things that make people feel good, it's things that she senses they already want. This is a whole different kind of challenge. This is something that the poll numbers show they don't necessarily think they want at this time. She's going to have to convince them of that if she hopes to be successful.
SANCHEZ: Keith, I want you to listen to something, all right? This is what she told our own Larry King when she talked about this issue. Let's listen to it and then we'll come back on the other side. You ready? All right, here we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OPRAH WINFREY, TALK SHOW HOST: I think that my value to him, my support of him, is probably worth more than any check that I could write.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: She also went on to say, incidentally, that she's not going to have any of the other candidates on her show. You know last year she had Bush, every year she's had all of the candidates on. She said she'd feel hypocritical if she did that. What's your take?
KEITH BOYKIN, HOST, "MY TWO CENTS": Well, she just had bill Clinton on the show last week, he was Hillary's husband, so she's getting a bounce out of that, too, but, you know, the reality is not just the eight million people who watch Oprah everyday who make a difference, but the millions of other people that she influences, as well. Oprah is going to have enormous impact on this and there's no lose, I think, for Barack Obama, the potential loss is for Oprah, because it could affect her brand, but that's not a concern for Barack at all.
SANCHEZ: Hey Phil, you're there in Chicago, you know this story as well as anybody. Do we constantly underestimate the power of this woman? Does she prove us wrong?
ROSENTHAL: I don't think. I actually think you might overestimate it.
SANCHEZ: Really?
ROSENTHAL: Because again, I said -- I mean, you know, Dr. Thomson was saying that she made thousands of people read Faulkner, no, she made thousands of people buy Faulkner, whether or not they read it is an open question.
(LAUGHTER)
And so, I mean, think back, I mean, when she tried to put everything into the movie "Beloved" what happened in there? The movie bombed and she did everything she could to make that successful. I think her success is that that she gives people what they want.
SANCHEZ: Keith, final word. It's about 10 seconds, because I am getting screamed at in the control room.
BOYKIN: I will say this, you know, I was even considering the possibility of going to fund-raiser in California this week, for Barack, because he's a classmate of mine from law school, just because I want to see her house.
SANCHEZ: You got invited?
BOYKIN: Right, exactly.
SANCHEZ: Why aren't you going?
BOYKIN: Because I'm not endorsing anybody. But people will do that. She's has that kind of influence.
SANCHEZ: Thanks for the ethics, by the way. Stick to it.
(LAUGHTER)
Keith Boykin, Robert Thompson, Phil Rosenthal. Great topic, we'll be following it for you. Thank you all.
Osama bin Laden is recommending the book by my next guest. I mean, he was here on this show last night talking to us, little did we know that he would be mentioned today by Osama bin Laden. So, we'll have him, coming back. Sorry about that, guys, I talk too much.
Then later, a man fighting to protect the jobs of the men and the women fighting to protect us. This story, it isn't that we're in the habit of offering advice to bank robbers, by the way, but as we watch this video, something nice kind of happens. Right there on the right, bank robber in the middle. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Back now to bin Laden, and a man actually mentioned by him in his decree. Michael Scheuer is the form heard of the CIA's bin Laden Unit. When we asked him for analysis last night, little did we know that he would get a shout-out, and actual shout-out from bin Laden the very next day. Remarkable.
Here's what bin Laden, in fact, had to say about our next guest in his new video.
"And if you would like to get to know some of the reasons for your losing of your war against us, then read the book of Michael Scheuer in the regard."
Thos are bin Laden's words, today, or released today. Bin Laden was referring to "Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror."
Well Michael Scheuer. I'm not sure what to ask. What do you do with an endorsement from a ruthless killer/terrorist?
MICHAEL SCHEUER, FMR HEAD OF CIA BIN LADEN UNIT: Well, you hope that it helps to protect America. You know, we now have 17 out of 19 presidential candidates, and we have our last two presidents lying to the American people about what the war is about.
What bin Laden is referring to is the book I wrote based on his writings that the war is motivated, on their side at least, by the impact of our policies in the Middle East. Has nothing to do with women in the workplace or elections or democracy. And as a result, the United States is fighting an enemy that doesn't exist, and so we are going to be defeated if we don't sharpen up, and realize the danger this enemy presents.
SANCHEZ: Let me just be fair to you and offer you the opportunity to answer the question that some folks at home may be thinking. Are you in any way -- do you in any way regard yourself as a bin Laden sympathizer?
SCHEUER: No, I think Mr. Laden surely knows that I was responsible for trying to kill him and had Mr. Clinton had any courage, Mr. bin Laden would be dead now. And I have repeatedly said that the one failure -- major failure in American foreign policy is that we have not used our military to its full extent, we have not been aggressive enough, we have not been lethal enough.
SANCHEZ: Here's a question I ask you, because you know the fellow as well as maybe anybody, and that is -- is he with this particular tape trying to revalidate, reassert al Qaeda, because of all of the talk that we've been hearing in the past about how decentralized al Qaeda has become?
SCHEUER: No, I don't think he -- all of the talk you've heard about a decentralized al Qaeda has come from American politicians on both sides of the aisle who really don't know the difference between a Shia and a Sunni or a Muslim and a Hindu. What he doesn't need to validate himself for anything. He is the man in the Islamic world who has successfully defied the United States for 12 years, attacked us in our own country and has eluded us, the greatest superpower that the world has ever seen. The only -- and we continue to have Miss Townsend and Secretary Chertoff kind of pooh-pooh what he says, but in the Muslim world, bin Laden comes up all aces.
SANCHEZ: What do you make of the particular statement that he made today and how should we receive it? Because there's a tendency in this country in the past, maybe a little less now, but in the past who want to say, you know what, we need to just not pay attention to this guy.
SCHEUER: Well, that would be very much like saying, sir, we should have fought the Soviets without translating Marx and Lennon, Stalin, and Engles, and try to just figure out what they're going to do based on our perceptions.
We're ignoring this enemy at our peril. And the politicians don't want CNN or any of the other networks to publish on the Websites the verbatim translations of these tapes, because the American people will see immediately that this war has nothing to do with their society or their elections, that it has to do with our policy, and they don't want to talk about policy. They don't want to talk about their failure to solve the energy problem in 35 years.
SANCHEZ: By the way, we should mention, just as a caveat before we go, that your book has now moved 1,500 places in sales ranking since Osama bin Laden made the comment. I don't know...
SCHEUER: You know, that's fine. But what's an important -- what's important is that Americans should understand why we're being attacked, so we can successfully defend ourselves.
SANCHEZ: And we get that. We thank you for sharing that notion with us.
SCHEUER: You're welcome.
SANCHEZ: Michael Scheuer.
SCHEUER: Thank you, sir.
SANCHEZ: Coming up next, I'm going to fight the fight for these guys, because -- well, because they deserve it. These are vets from Iraq coming home to no jobs, even though legally, that's not supposed to happen. This is about unkempt promises, and we are going to be there for them.
Also, prosecutors out of control, now they're going to ruin some kid's life for having a Swiss Army Knife in a parked car. What are they bored? Is there not enough real crime? Stay there. We're going to come right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: This is one of those stories that bridges the gap. I don't care if you're a lefty or you're a rightly or you're an in- betweeny (ph). Honor is keeping a promise, so if a National Guardsman works for you and he's called to serve our country, you shouldn't fire him, you shouldn't demote him. It's wrong. By the way, it is illegal.
My next guest is fighting for them. Mathew Tully had this happen to him, so he filed a suit, he won the suit and used that money to go to law school and guess what he did with it? Now, as a lawyer, he's fighting for other vets who are lied to. We couldn't get him live so we asked him to stop by recently, here's our talk.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATHEW TULLY, ATTORNEY & IRAQ VETERAN: I got hired by the bureau of prisons in 1995 and shortly after I was hired, I was deployed to Korea and to Fort Sill for three years. When I returned back to my job at the Bureau of Prisons, I found out that I was the low man on the seniority totem pole and placed on initial employee probation and subjected to the worst assignments on the institution.
SANCHEZ: Why didn't you go to your supervisors and say, look, I did what I did not by choice, I'm serving my country and I was asked to go and I did so honorably, if anything, you should treating me as a hero not demoting me or making me do things that I don't want to do -- or did you say that?
TULLY: Oh, I absolutely did say that. I brought it all the way up to the warden and the warden told I needed to pick my career, so either I was going to be a federal law enforcement officer or I was going to have a career in the military, and I couldn't have both, and I them that I felt that I could have both.
SANCHEZ: Well but wait a minute, what your warden told you, by those words, smacks right against the laws of this country, which says that if you're a National Guardsman, they have to either preserve or somehow enhance your position for a period of up to five years, right?
TULLY: That is absolutely true. There's an escalator clause and when you go away to serve in the military, you're supposed to return to the job that you would have received if you'd been continuously employed, so what he said was a complete violation of the law.
SANCHEZ: So what you were able to do for yourself, you've now, as a lawyer with a law degree, been able to do for others, right? TULLY: Absolutely. In my opinion 99.9 percent of these USERRA violations are because of ignorance of the law. People don't realize what USERRA stands for and that they can't discriminate against people who went away to sever our country in time of war.
Most of the times these are not cases of employers saying you're a baby killer, you're fired, most of the time it's the employer not knowing, you know, the actual finute (sic) details of USERRA.
SANCHEZ: We're hearing cases like this all of the time, but I know, obviously you're privy to many more, and as we continue this -- because you know, we think it is generally outrageous that something like this would be going on in this country while we're asking so many of our men and women to serve. I am wondering if there are cases out there that are particularly interesting that you can share with us?
TULLY: One case that really sticks in my craw is that of a sergeant-major -- a Special Forces sergeant-major by the name of Rick Eriksson (ph), who left his job with the Postal Service and went to Afghanistan and brought the fight to the enemy and he's won the Purple Heart, the Bronze Star, the Silver Star. There's actually photos of him strapped to the side of a an assault helicopter as he's bringing the fight to the Taliban and, he was fired by the Post Office because he exceeded five years of military service. And this poor guy went overseas and he comes back and he's unemployed and he is the single father of three young children...
SANCHEZ: We're going to reach out to Rich (ph) Eriksson, we're also going to talk to the post office, look into it and continue on the story. And thanks so much for sharing this insight with us.
TULLY: It's my pleasure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: We said we would stay on top of the story, and we will.
Still ahead, ruin a kid's life for a Swiss Army Knife? The knife was apparently in a parked car. Now it is a felony. Bob Barr thinks this is crazy. Bob Barr joins us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And we welcome you back. I'm Rick Sanchez. Where in the world would you have your life all but ruined for having a Swiss Army Knife in your car? Where? Georgia. Marietta High school student, Wilford Ray Chandler, Jr., is charged with a felony and sounds like prosecutors run amok, doesn't it? Well, of course, they say they are doing their job and something about a zero tolerance policy.
Joining me now is former congressman and one-time federal prosecutor, Bob Barr and he is furious about this and has actually taken up the boy's cause.
Hey, man, what's going on in the South? We got Genarlow Wilson, 10 years in prison for sex with a 17-year-old having sex with a 15- year-old. We got the Jena Six down in Louisiana, kids all but the rest of his life in prison for getting in a fight in school. What are these prosecutors bored, Bob, what's going on?
BOB BARR, FMR U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Well Rick, it's not only the prosecutors, it's teachers, it's school administrators, it's school boards, it's judges, it's police -- the whole system is out of whack from beginning to end. And what parents need to do is to get a handle on this and demand some common sense and some rationality instead of this idiotic zero tolerance approach.
SANCHEZ: There's two cases, one of them is a kid who had a Swiss Army Knife, both of them in Marietta, and the other one had a buck knife, his dad apparently is a hunter, had the buck knife, left it there, let his kid borrow the car to take to school, the kid didn't even know it's there and now he can't play football, may not be able to get into college, he's going to have a felony arrest for the rest of his life -- Bob.
BARR: And the schools say that they're trying to help the kids and they're trying to give them good educations so they can get good jobs, and what they seem to be more interested in is ruining their careers.
SANCHEZ: You know, what's funny is, I see, you know, you and I are both living kind of in the same area down there, and there's a lot of good guys, good police officers, but there's an awful lot of them and you know, you almost think, they got to get to these kids before they become criminals. Don't be chasing them, looking to see if they've done something wrong. Get a coach's hat and whistle and go over to a park and set up a recreation program for them. I mean, aren't we looking at this thing butt backwards?
BARR: Well, we are, and also what these folks need to do, that is the authorities, they need to concentrate on what's important and forget about what is not important. You know, they spend, Lord knows now, how many hours already on cases like this in Marietta, Georgia, and there's all sorts of other things happening out there that really do demand their attention.
SANCHEZ: Bob Barr as usual, man, love having you on. Can you come back again? We're going to keep doing this, all right?
BARR: You call me, Chris.
SANCHEZ: Good stuff.
BARR: I'm sorry, Rick.
SANCHEZ: There you go again.
Time for more of some of the best pics of the day. In fact we've got a couple of them we want to share with you right now. Here we go.
This is the one that everybody in our newsroom has been bragging about today. It is a new arrival at the zoo in Portland, Oregon. This is called Laura's pick. This baby, by the way, belongs to a species you've probably never heard of before. It the -- let me see if I can do it right, because you know, I don't know this stuff very well -- Francois Langur (ph) --something about a French-speaking monkey or something. That's actually what it's called, a Francois Langur monkey. They're rare, only 75 of these in captivity in North America. They're native Southeast Asia and they are endangered.
How did you like that, Laura? Huh? Thumb's up. She picked that, our producer.
Up next, video that will just amaze you. A bank robbery caught on tape right in front of a police officer. What do you think happens next? Watch the guy there on the left. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Here we go, one of the best pics of the day, and we had 18 seconds to do it, so let me talk fast. Guy right there, hands a not to the teller, he says, "Give me all your money," doesn't realize there's a police officer behind. The police officer comes up behind him, they scuffle, gets him down to the ground, but even eventually goes down the street, the man's now under arrest.
Thanks for being with us. Larry King, now
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