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Out in the Open
Tension in Jena Six Case Escalates; Another Suspect Arrested in O.J. Simpson Case
Aired September 21, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Rick Sanchez.
New tape is coming in. There are new developments in the Jena Six that involve the KKK and a neo-Nazi group. This is getting ugly.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Nooses, Klansmen, a neo-Nazi Web site angrily answering the call of thousands of civil rights marchers.
Why should a schoolyard fight keep this teenager behind bars? Why should he be doing 10 years in prison for consensual teenage sex? Why is it that, if you're black teenager in America, you're on the fast track to prison?
Another alleged member of O.J. Simpson's team under arrest. What did he do?
A cop killer has a city enraged. Will it finally lead to secure borders? The mayor of Phoenix joins us live.
Parents trying to sell off their teenage daughters in America.
And who's out of line here, the woman being Tasered or the cop doing it again and again and again?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: All right, here we go, three big governments to take you through.
The first one, police have stopped a truck with two nooses. This is in Alexandria. It's near Jena. Two teens apparently have been arrested. One says that he's a member of the KKK. The older teen has been charged now with inciting a riot.
Let's go to the other place, Jeff. Follow me.
It's almost tough to look at this image here, but this is exactly what's going on here. A neo-Nazi Web site is now threatening lynching some of these men that are involved in this incident. It's actually posting the names and the addresses of the Jena Six kids.
One of their sites actually reads, "Let them know that justice is coming." And it's trying to get other whites, it says, to see if it could possibly -- in fact, Bob, give me that. This is part of the Web site that we have been looking at all day.
You know, frankly, I would prefer that you don't see the actual listing on it. But we're going to be reading parts to you and to some of our guests.
And then this is the other development that we're following now.
Mychal Bell, he's still in jail. He had his big hearing that we here at CNN were following today. The family asked the judge to release him on bail. So far, the judge there has refused.
We have a special guest we're going to bring in right now.
Martin Luther King III is good enough to join us. He's the son of Dr. Martin Luther King.
He was there yesterday during those demonstrations in Jena.
Martin, let me ask you, straight out, by having you respond to this Web site that I was just telling the viewers about -- let's put it up, if you can, Will -- and I will read you this part.
It says: "If these N-word are released or acquitted, we will find out where they live and make sure that white activists and white citizens in Louisiana know it. We will mail directions to their homes to every white man in Louisiana, if we have to, in order to find someone willing to deliver justice."
Your reaction, sir?
MARTIN LUTHER KING III, PRESIDENT & CEO, REALIZING THE DREAM: Well, it's a very tragic day in America when we have escalated to this level, which alludes to violence, even though it does not say specifically violence, but it alludes to that.
Yesterday, a demonstration of anywhere from 20,000 to maybe as many 60,000 people came to Jena in a nonviolent demonstration. There were no incidents. It was a very positive day.
And it was saying, we want to see justice for these young men, but also justice for both sides. That means that, yes, perhaps there may be some additional punishment. We don't know what that means at this point, justice, and then reconciliation. Got to bring this community back together at some point down the road.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: This guy with this Web site has just released this information.
I'm going to quote him here. He says: "What I say and said is no different from Al Sharpton" -- or you -- he says MLK III -- "threatening to riot, making threats of violence against white people."
What's your response to that? Did you make threats of violence or rioting yesterday?
(CROSSTALK)
M. KING: Oh, absolutely not. That's very tragic that this person, whomever that person is, clearly does not know what he's talking -- he does not understand the movement of Martin Luther King Jr.
No one at the demonstration in relation to the two names that you just called advocated for violence, and never will advocate for violence. That is something we must never reduce ourselves to.
SANCHEZ: There was an incident that happened out there today.
In fact, Martin, stay there if you would for just a moment, because I understand we have got some tape coming in. There's a new development. This is another part of the story -- 40 miles from the road from Jena last night, some of the demonstrators were waiting quietly for their ride home when they suddenly noticed a pickup truck that was driving around. It had two nooses that were dangling from the pickup truck.
In fact, Tanisha (ph), if we have got that video of the arrest, let's go ahead.
Will, go ahead and put that up for our viewers, if you can.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIKA BURNETT, I-REPORTER: This is the gentleman who was driving the truck. And this is the noose. There's another one on the other side.
They pulled a rifle out of his car. And then they gave it back to him, so he must have a permit or something for it. But he is now being arrested, from what I could tell. We believe he's being arrested. We believe he's being arrested.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Erika Burnett is our I-Reporter. She shot this video with her own home video camera.
And she is joining us now on the line.
Erika...
BURNETT: Yes.
SANCHEZ: ... boy, I will tell you, you really witnessed something there that must have been personally tough for you to watch. I imagine it was tough for some of the other folks there.
You had come from where, Nashville, down to Jena, right? BURNETT: Correct.
We had about six or seven buses that departed from Nashville on Wednesday evening, heading to Jena, Louisiana. And then we proceeded to go to an additional rally in Alexandria.
SANCHEZ: So, you're there. You were leaving and suddenly, you witnessed this. Can you describe these two characters for us?
BURNETT: The only way I know how to describe it to you is pure hate. If there's anything that I can say is that our spirit all of us -- it was maybe approximately 60 of us who witnessed this -- the only thing that we felt was pure hatred coming from this pickup truck.
And they circled the block three times, not once, not twice, but three times, before they were apprehended by the police.
SANCHEZ: They were instigating, right? They were trying to egg people on? How did people respond to that and how quickly did the police get there? And was there ever a point where you thought this thing might escalate?
BURNETT: Honestly, we had had such a productive day that I knew that there would not be any type of outburst whatsoever. We were there for a cause and we knew our purpose there. So, I did not fear that anything would escalate or anyone would be hurt.
However, we were very concerned that something would happen. And something did happen. Thankfully, there were police officers there. They were present on the spot. So, upon their third time circling the block, the police car was able to block them and stop them from proceeding.
SANCHEZ: Well, we thank you. And, to your credit and to the credit of others there, there were no problems, no violence reported by police. And the incident seemed to be handled in an orderly fashion. We thank you once again, Erika Burnett.
Let's go back now to Jena.
Sean Callebs is following the story for us.
Sean, here's where I want you to pick up the story. I understand there was a big hearing today for Mychal Bell.
He, for viewers who don't know, is one of the six, but he's the one who is still behind bars, right? What happened?
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly.
He is really the one a lot of the attention was focused on yesterday because he has been locked up for the past ninth months. It was a closed hearing today because right now, Bell is being treated as a juvenile. But feeding off the energy from the massive demonstration yesterday, the family thought it would be very positive today. They thought today would be the day that Mychal Bell would get bail, would receive bond, and would be able to leave jail with his family. Didn't happen.
We have some pictures of him leaving the courthouse. But once again, he was in his prison jumpsuit. He was handcuffed. He was raised his arms above his head defiantly, got into a van, drove back to the LaSalle correctional facility, where he is held tonight.
The judge in this case -- the defense attorney had asked for bail. It was not granted. So, he is going to remain in jail for the foreseeable future. We saw the family leave today. They were simply devastated.
But they can't talk, Rick. That's one interesting thing.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
CALLEBS: We know the judge has cautioned the defense attorneys and the family, saying, look, if anybody talks about this case, I want a gag order. I'm going to hold you in contempt.
SANCHEZ: Hey, Sean, let me ask you something I'm curious about, because we saw that report a little while about these guys with this Web site threatening to go after these kids.
Are they being watched a little more carefully now? Do they have any kind of police protection?
CALLEBS: The simple answer is absolutely not. We asked the sheriff's department earlier today because, as you mentioned, it's hard to read in between the lines.
This is blatant. This is a threat. We asked the LaSalle Parish sheriff if they were going to provide more security for the five teens that are still out, that are not incarcerated. Said, no, they don't have the manpower. And, at this point, the sheriff's office tells us they don't have the need.
SANCHEZ: Sean Callebs following the situation there in Jena.
Let's go back now to Martin Luther King III.
Will, if you could, I want to put up some pictures about this march yesterday that we were following. This was a huge event. This was one of the biggest civil rights marches in the South in decades. State police estimate there were something like 15,000 to 20,000 demonstrators there.
Now, think about this for a moment. Jena's normal population is only 3,000 people. So, these are people who came from all over the United States. There was heavy security. As I mentioned moments ago, there was no violence. And that's a real credit, once again, to these folks.
Let's go back to Martin Luther King III and ask him the question that a lot of people want to know.
How did the word get out? How did this thing become so big?
M. KING: I think first of all, it happened through the Internet. And the Internet -- there was a movement of young people through the Internet. And then, later on, it was through talk radio.
And that's what really raised the consciousness of this nation. If you look at three or four weeks, people of color and white folks and people of good will joined this demonstration yesterday. But they all joined because they heard it through radio and then ultimately, through the national news. I think you, CNN, have certainly gotten the information out there as well and others.
SANCHEZ: We have been all over this thing.
But I got to tell you, as a correspondent, as a reporter, as a journalist, it's not an easy story to tell. It's got a lot of moving parts.
In fact, with your permission, I want to catch our viewers up.
Will, let's go back over here.
I want to take people through this, because a lot of people are wondering, well, this at first sounds an awful lot like just another crime case.
Well, here's the timeline of this thing. Let's take you back to August. This is 2006. Black students. It all has to do with that tree over there. They were wondering why they wouldn't be able to gather under that tree, why only white people were allowed to be under the tree.
So, they went to the principal. And they asked the principal, can we go and sit under the tree? The principal said, yes, you can.
Well, the very next day, nooses were hanging from underneath that tree. White students who did that were suspended, but only for a couple of days. Fine. Right?
Let's move on now. Now it's early December. And you're trying to figure out. This thing is brewing. It's escalating. It's getting a little worse. There's a couple of students who get into a fight. Apparently, a black student has a bottle broken over his head. But the white student apparently who did it was not charged because it was off campus, some police say.
Now, here's the big one. This is December 4, 2006. That's the young man who was the victim in this case. A fight at school. A white student is beat up by the six black students, thereby the name Jena Six. The black students are charged right after this. Some of this has changed a little bit, but the black students are actually charged with attempted murder in this case.
So, Martin, let me go back to you. And I think the question here is, what should these students have been charged with? Because I'm sure you're not here on the air on CNN to tell us that what they did was perfectly fine. Wrong is wrong, no matter what color you are, right?
M. KING: Absolutely, absolutely.
That is -- and I don't think that's what the issue is. It's a matter of whether the crime that occurred, the sentence was just or the sentences -- proposed sentences, I should say, because there are five other young men who have not yet been to court or yet -- not been yet tried in terms of a hearing.
But...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: It was the inequality?
M. KING: I don't know. I can't say specifically what the laws say, in terms of what the sentence should have been.
But it seems to me that, if there's been three days and incidents occurred over a three-day period -- actually, a four-day period, if you take -- remove Sunday out.
SANCHEZ: Right.
M. KING: It seems to me that the real question is, how do you get justice for everyone, the same kind of justice? And what I would demand or request or hope to see is justice on both sides. It's not an issue of black or white. It's an issue of what is right and what is justice for everyone.
So, maybe there perhaps must be a punishment for the fight, but there must be a punishment that makes sense. And, then, again, as I said, at the end of the day, it really is about finding ways to reconcile this community. It looks like there's not going to be justice through the local system of justice. It seems like it's going to have to come from the appellate court. It seems that way. I don't know that that's the case.
SANCHEZ: I was talking to Reverend Sharpton about this the other day. And he and I were in this discussion. And I posed to him the possibility that it's really just weak administrators who weren't able to see that there was an escalation problem here, that this thing was going to get out of control, and rather than reining it in, they let it fester.
And that may have as much to do with this problem as the issue of race. Do you agree?
M. KING: Well, that certainly is part of it. But that's why we need human relations training, diversity and sensitivity training.
And, actually, we need to have that in kindergarten, because we never need to be able to escalate to this kind of level again on either side of the issue.
SANCHEZ: There is a lot of news coming in on this story. We're going to be getting it for you.
Martin Luther King III, we thank you, sir, for taking time to join us today.
M. KING: Thank you so much for the opportunity.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENARLOW WILSON, SERVING 10 YEARS IN PRISON: It was like I had everything on one day, and, the next day, I didn't have nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: You think it's just about Jena? Think again. Two teens have sex. No force. Both are under age. But one is spending 10 years in prison for it. Yes, he's black. And most say it's just wrong.
Later, a cop killer, fresh outrage. But will it finally seal the border with Mexico?
And getting trigger happy with a Taser.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
I want to share something with you now that's been very important to me. It's the case of a teenager whose life is now completely ruined because of one sexual encounter, consensual oral sex.
Genarlow Wilson was 17. The girl he was with was 15. So, they're both teenagers, right? Now Wilson sits behind bars for aggravated child molestation for 10 years in a prison with rapists and murderers. This is a story I have been following for months. And it helps us look into some of the problems of judicial disparities in America.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
B.J. BERNSTEIN, ATTORNEY: We win!
SANCHEZ: Yes?
(on camera): A victory in the legal battle for Genarlow Wilson, sentenced to 10 years because of a Georgia sodomy law that harshly punished the 17-year-old for having oral sex with another teenager.
But this victory was short-lived. The decision to release Wilson was appealed just an hour later. And, today, he is still behind bars. How did this get started?
Let's take you back. Genarlow Wilson is a convicted felon. He's a prisoner, despite being a good son, a good athlete, a high school student with a 3.2 GPA, with no criminal past. He was a track and football star being recruited by several universities. He was his school's homecoming king. He was the boy who seemed to have it all.
GENARLOW WILSON, SERVING 10 YEARS IN PRISON: I was somewhat popular, you know, maybe too much in the spotlight for my own good.
SANCHEZ: Imagine now going from that to this, living behind bars for a minimum of 10 years for something he did that some may consider immoral, maybe stupid, maybe even criminal. But 10 years in prison? "The New York Times," in an editorial, is calling for his release. Web sites are dedicated to freeing him.
Even conservative talk show host Neal Boortz has taken on Genarlow's cause.
NEAL BOORTZ, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: The kid broke a ridiculous law passed by the General Assembly that did not, can we use the phrase, grade on a curve.
SANCHEZ (on camera): You lost your freedom. What's that like, to lose your freedom?
WILSON: It's real hard, because I started off -- well, it was like I had everything on one day, and, the next day, I didn't have nothing.
SANCHEZ: Where and when did this all begin? Right here at this the Days Inn in suburban Atlanta, December 31, 2003. Genarlow and some of his friends decided they would come here, rent a room, and ring in the new year.
(voice-over): That night, several girls showed up at the hotel room. One of them was 15. And she appears to start having consensual oral sex with Genarlow, who is 17. One of the boys videotaped it. And that's how it became evidence at his trial.
(on camera): At no time did you tell that young lady that she had to give you oral sex?
WILSON: No, sir.
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Eddie Barker, who prosecuted Genarlow, shows us the tape that he used to prove his case.
(on camera): He says he never used any force, that he didn't force the girl at all. Is he telling the truth?
EDDIE BARKER, PROSECUTOR: From what we have seen on the videotape and heard from the victim herself, we do not believe there was any physical force used.
(END VIDEOTAPE) SANCHEZ: By the way, that law that they used against Genarlow was so outdated, that Georgia's legislature went to session and rewrote the law on teen sex, making what Genarlow now a misdemeanor. But, somehow, he's still in jail.
In fact, check this out. We have done some fact-checking here. African-Americans are 16 percent of this country's youth, but account for 28 of juvenile arrests, 58 percent youth admitted to state adult prisons. Why does it seem that the system is harsher against young black men?
Let's bring in some guests. Joyce King the author of "Hate Crime." This tells the story of how Texas prosecutors caught and convicted the white men who dragged a black man to death behind a pickup truck. Also with us is Richard Cohen. He is the president of the Southern Poverty Law Center.
Richard, is this an ugly truth about our justice system that we simply need to face up to?
RICHARD COHEN, PRESIDENT, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER: What's going on, Rich?
SANCHEZ: Yes, Richard, are you there? Maybe you can hear me now. Can you hear me, Richard?
All right, let's go to Joyce.
Joyce, can you hear me?
JOYCE KING, AUTHOR, "HATE CRIME": Yes, I can. How are you?
SANCHEZ: I'm fine, Joyce.
Let me ask you the same question.
Is this just an ugly truth about our system that we need to face up to?
J. KING: Absolutely.
And I think what you're seeing is a double standard of justice here. Whether blacks, whether African-Americans be defendants or whether they be victims, justice is not being meted out and it's not fair. And we saw that frustration come to a head in Jena, Louisiana. And we have seen it time and time again in other places.
So, I think the level of frustration is there. I was actually trembling while you talked about the young man, because I am a mother of two sons. And it's a sad state of affairs when you have to caution your children on how they need to really be cautious as young black men.
SANCHEZ: Because they're not going to get a break; is that the point you're making? Let me ask you something else. There are people who are watching this show who would say, you know, to a certain extent, some of our young men perpetuate this problem with the grills in their teeth, their underwear sticking out, and behaving sometimes, as I'm sure you have heard the expression before, acting the fool.
We need to get a handle sometimes on how they respect themselves, if they want others to respect them as well, right? I know this is a tough conversation, but I want to put it out there to see what you think.
J. KING: Well, I'm glad you asked that. It's a very provocative issue.
And I think, as parents, one of the things that we have to administer is tough love. There is a respect level that's somewhat absent for the African-American culture from a lot of people who mistakenly view hip-hop culture as being definitive of what it means to be black in America. That is so wrong.
I teach my sons, are you not leaving this house with the pants below the belt, with the underwear showing. You're not wearing the grills.
And, even if they did, Rick, let me say this. That's a convenient stereotype that's a scapegoat for people to treat them the way they really want to treat them.
SANCHEZ: You're absolutely right.
Richard Cohen, let's go back to you.
Have you seen -- I know your system, your organization there in Alabama looks at statistics on cases like this. Have you found that there actually is statistical evidence that would prove that African- American young men are treated differently?
COHEN: I don't think there's any question about it, Rick. And I don't think it's a surprise in a sense because African-Americans are discriminated in this country from the cradle to the grave, and the criminal justice system is no different. They're more likely to be arrested for the same offense, more likely to be prosecuted and more likely to be punished harshly.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Is this a regional problem? Because we're talking about Louisiana. We see cases in the Carolinas, Mississippi, this case that I have been following. And I went to visit Genarlow down there in Forsyth, Georgia.
Do we see more of it in the South? Is it more prevalent there, Richard?
COHEN: You know, I'm not sure. I think it's prevalent really, quite frankly, everywhere. Minority youth, for example, in New Jersey are 12 times more likely to be incarcerated than white youth. And, so, I think it's a problem everywhere. I think it probably is exacerbated in the South by the history of racial tensions here. But I don't think it's particularly unique to the South, to be honest.
SANCHEZ: Joyce King, final thoughts.
Where are we going with this? What's the solution? What do we all need to do as parents, as educators, and, frankly, in some cases, as students?
J. KING: Well, I have to say that I lecture a lot on hope, healing, and racial reconciliation.
I said on CNN a few months ago justice opens the door to healing. There can be no healing without that justice. And I would like to see more white people stand with us, because they know we're right when we're right.
COHEN: You're absolutely right.
SANCHEZ: Richard Cohen, Joyce King, my thanks to both of you.
J. KING: Thank you.
COHEN: Thank you, Rick.
SANCHEZ: All right.
There's a video I want to show you. And I want you to decide, as you watch this video, whether this officer goes too far. Let me set it up for you.
It's in Warren, Ohio. There is a woman who is at a bar. Apparently, she's had too much to drink. He's called. Then he gets her outside and he takes out his Taser and he starts to Taser her, not once, but several times.
Go ahead, Will. Let's take a look at this.
They say he may have done it as many as seven times. There he goes. He takes out his Taser. He is Tasing her, seems to kick her. He is Tasering her, continues to Taser her, goes after her again.
You're just supposed to do this for a couple seconds and then get the person to comply with your request. As a result, he's on administrative leave. The woman, who is also charged, she's out on bail.
We are not done with the Genarlow Wilson story, by the way. Coming up, I decide to go toe to toe with a powerful Georgia lawmaker in the Senate who knows better, but still has been calling Wilson a rapist.
Also, will the outrage over a cop killing finally seal the border with Mexico? I'm going to ask the mayor of Phoenix about this one. I will have it for you right here.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And we welcome you back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
You have heard the chant, "We shall overcome." This is a story of overcoming. It's a young man who realizes his athletic dream and lifelong dream didn't have to end because he had lost a leg.
He's tonight's "CNN Hero."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no way you can sort of separate having an amputation from the rest of my life. You know, people say, like, well did it change your life? It changes everything.
As a kid, no one my age had ever beat me in a footrace. And I figured I was probably one of the fastest people in the world. That was -- that was kind of what I told myself.
I started having pain in my left leg when I was 9 years old. The doctor found cancer. A lot of the grieving sort of happened for me before I lost my leg. I really remember thinking, can I just go out and live a normal life with one leg?
An amputee that I met was a guy named Larry Klopek (ph). Like, he drove a convertible, he had a normal job. And I was just like, wow, you know, he lives like a normal life. That was really what kind of turned the corner for me. I don't think most amputees have friends that are also amputees.
Online, there wasn't really a good place for people to like meet centrally, provide information and ask for information and meet other people. And so I thought, that just needs to happen. I'm Josh Sundquist and I created an online community for amputees to meet other amputees to ask questions and get answers.
I wanted it to be like a catchy name, you know, like "give me a hand" or like "a leg up." And every pun I could think of was taken. So finally I thought of "Less than Four," which admittedly is not quite a pun but it is kind of catchy. It also can be sweetly abbreviated.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I stumbled across the site looking for a T- shirt with an amputee on it. The site seems pretty cool.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a bad habit of staring at people that are staring at my arm.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You make me laugh and if you only knew how much that helps me out.
SUNDQUIST: The best thing is that the community is sort of like rising up, leaders from within are sort of taking the baton to like help other amputees. I think that's pretty cool.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: You can find out a whole lot more about Josh Sundquist and nominate your own hero at our Web site, cnn.com/heroes.
He was deported, came back, killed a cop. Has it caused enough outrage to finally seal the boarder with Mexico? I'm going to ask the mayor of Phoenix. He's joining us live.
Also, I'm going to confront a powerful Georgia lawmaker who keeps calling the case of two teenagers having consensual sex rape. Stay with us. Hear what happens during our heated conversation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back on our "Immigration Nation" segment tonight, those who want to seal the boarder with Mexico have what looks like the ideal case to back them up. I want to show a memorial now to a Phoenix police officer who was killed Tuesday. He was shot dead by a man he had stopped for jaywalking.
Now, police caught up with the gunman later and killed him as he held a driver hostage. Nothing more than a local tragedy you think, right? Well, not quite. The gunman, Erik Martinez had a record as long as your arm and he was an illegal immigrant who had already been deported at least once.
Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon calls Eric Martinez a poster child for the federal government's failure to protect our borders. And Mayor Gordon is good enough to join us now.
Why was this guy out, Mayor?
MAYOR PHIL GORDON (D), PHOENIX: Well, the individual was caught by the Phoenix Police a couple years ago on a felony property crime, sent to jail, was prosecuted by the county attorney, convicted, and actually sentenced to prison, served some time, because he was an illegal alien, was then deported by ICE to Mexico.
And then came back across the border and the rest, unfortunately, is played out and your viewers have seen that. We've lost an officer that was killed. Let me first emphasize...
SANCHEZ: Isn't this, by the way, the perfect case study for why we do need immigration reform?
GORDON: Absolutely. In fact, I've been crying like everyone that I believe is that we need an immigration reform policy that is comprehensive. A reform policy...
SANCHEZ: Well, didn't we have that, though, about a year ago when the Bush administration with the secretary of commerce and Mr. Chertoff put out a plan that would have fingerprinted every single person in this United States? GORDON: Rick, you know what? The proposal from Senator McCain and Kennedy and the president included a border security program, a work guest program, reform immigration numbers to allow the economics and the social needs to occur and to go after the criminals. That was comprehensive.
The fact is, everybody was agreeing that we needed to get that immigration policy solved and everyone agreed at least one significant component was to control our border so that -- and that hasn't occurred. None of that has occurred. And as a result
SANCHEZ: Well, that's because a few people decided they were going to cry amnesty and then everyone ran away from the legislation like little girls, right? And now we've got nothing and we've got characters like this coming over the border and killing decent Americans.
GORDON: Certainly I don't disagree with you on that. And unfortunately, again, someone, in this case our police officer, paid a price because that hasn't been controlled.
SANCHEZ: What do you say to those who say we shouldn't single out the fact that this guy happens to be Mexican?
GORDON: Well, first of all, this city will not be profiling, this city doesn't believe in that. Our chief of police and the council and myself are making sure that we are about what this country is about, is fairness, constitutional rights.
The fact of the matter is, our police go after criminals -- illegal criminals from across the border and those that are here legally by citizenship or otherwise, and have done that. And that's who our police should be going after and doing, and not becoming immigration agents and doing the job of the federal government that, A, doesn't get paid and B, would take officers off the street to protect us.
SANCHEZ: Mayor Phil Gordon, my thanks, sir, for taking time to talk to us about this.
GORDON: Thank you very much.
SANCHEZ: All right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIC JOHNSON, GEORGIA STATE SENATE: Are you aware that these boys videotaped that rape?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Rape. That's what he said. But it wasn't a rape. Next, I ask a powerful Georgia lawmaker why he insisted on getting that wrong.
Also, arranged marriages for teenage girls. Are they joking? (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back to OUT IN THE OPEN. I'm Rick Sanchez. We talked about the Genarlow Wilson case just a little bit earlier. He's a young black male from Georgia who was 17 when he had consensual sex with a 15-year-old girl. He went to jail for it because of a law that made consensual sex between an underage teen a crime at the time.
That law, they've gotten rid of it, but he's still in jail. I want you to see what happened earlier this year when a powerful Georgia lawmaker stood before the Senate in Georgia and told all the people there that this young man was a rapist even though he wasn't.
So later, I walked over to the Georgia capital and confronted them there on the steps of the capital as to why he had said that. Here's the tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: Are you aware that boys videotaped that rape?
SANCHEZ: Do you feel bad about the fact that you characterized this as a rape when you were talking yesterday in the senate?
JOHNSON: No.
SANCHEZ: No. You don't have any problem with that? Because it wasn't a rape.
JOHNSON: It's a rape in my mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: A rape in his mind, not in the jury's mind, not in the judge's mind, not in the law's mind, in his mind. Joining us now, Maureen Downey, editorial writer from the Atlanta Journal- Constitution. She has written many pieces about this case.
You know, it seems as you look at in that there are people in our state of Georgia who are just hell bent on keeping this young man behind bars. Why?
MAUREEN DOWNEY, ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION: I think because the -- what happened at the party that led to Genarlow's conviction was that he had intercourse with one girl and oral sex with the other and he went to -- the trial dealt with both of those crimes -- both of those charges.
And he was acquitted of the rape. But folks like Eric Johnson, the senator that you just spoke to, refused to accept the jury's verdict in that case.
SANCHEZ: Isn't there something wrong when a senator decides that he's going to not accept a jury's verdict? Now, as far as I know, last time I read my civics books, the jury, the judge is the law, right? DOWNEY: Right. Absolutely. I think that you're right. I think that we have to remember that in this case, Genarlow Wilson, the jury looked at the videotape that Senator Johnson referred to, and they decide that had it wasn't rape and in fact, the only charge they came back with was the charge with the oral sex that Genarlow Wilson had had with the 15-year-old. And that young woman was fully willing to engage in oral sex. It was just her age that landed him 10 years behind bars.
SANCHEZ: So just to get the jurors -- the jurors, pardon me, the viewers caught up on this, you've got a 17-year-old and a 15-year-old having consensual oral sex, which, by the way, is probably stupid and especially in the way that they did it at a party in front of other teens and they were also getting high and doing alcohol.
So we'll put that aside because if it was my kid, I certainly would have had a long talk with them. But that aside, it's not a 10- year conviction. We're not talking something that a hardened criminal should face time for, right?
DOWNEY: Right. And in fact, almost everyone involved in this case, our attorney general, the prosecutors in Douglas County, agree that 10 years is an extreme punishment for that crime.
SANCHEZ: Maureen Downey with the AJC, Atlanta Journal- Constitution, our thanks for being on with us this evening.
DOWNEY: Thanks.
SANCHEZ: Drama now. Caught in a courtroom. I want you to see what happens in court. This is in Olympia, Washington. Confessed killer Jeremy Lofstrom is being sentenced for murdering his wife. But he is attacked by his victim's uncle instead. There he goes after him. You see him just in the corner there. He had to be dragged out of the courtroom. Sarah Lofstrom died after being stabbed more than 30 times. All right. There's the suspect in the orange right there. See him, he's trying to bend over, get in the way of the punches. Jeremy Lofstrom was sentenced to 28 years, by the way, in prison.
You can find anything on the Web. But this? Next. Arranged marriages for teenage girls. Are they serious? We're looking into it.
And then, talk about your phone going off at a bad time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hello, dear. I'm talking to the members of the NRA right now. Would you like to say hello?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: We've got something now that we most certainly need to bring OUT IN THE OPEN. This is going to shock you, this is about a Web site that we heard about. It was created as a hoax. The guy was wondering how many people would be interested in teen brides so he set up a marryourdaughter.com, marryourdaughter.com, just to see what would happen.
Well, the response has been amazing, 60 million hits, he says, in just two weeks. People are e-mailing offering their daughters for dowries, not realizing that the whole thing is phony but they're serious.
In fact, just look at this one. This is from the parents in the Southwest. Do I have it here? Yes, there it is. Let me put it up. They say, their daughter is 17. They want $80,000 for her. They say she is a very caring person. She likes to help people emotionally. She is beautiful inside and out.
Of course, since the site is a hoax, we obviously can't guarantee that the responses are authentic. John Ordover is the man who is behind this Web site and he is joining us now.
You know what this says before anything else, this is really upsetting, is that there are a lot of people out there who don't have a heck of a lot of respect for young minors when it comes to sex. And that's kind of disgusting, both the parents who are willing to sell them and the sickos out there who are willing to try and buy them.
JOHN ORDOVER, FOUNDER, MARRYOURDAUGHTER.COM: And the legislatures who leave laws on the books that make it legal.
SANCHEZ: Legal?
ORDOVER: Legal. New Hampshire, for example, the age of consent is 16, but you can get married at 13 with parents' permission.
SANCHEZ: As a matter of fact, wait, I think one of my producers said, we were going to put up a map up. Hey, Will, have you got that, put the map up that shows the breakdown across the United States where you can get married. I think in one of those places, Massachusetts is another one, right?
All right. There's the break down. You see the yellow and you see the red. You know, it's amazing, New Hampshire, looks like Missouri, Mississippi, I mean there are places where you can get married if you're 13, 14 years old.
ORDOVER: My favorite is Texas where you can get married at 14 with parental permission unless you've been married before, in which case you don't need permission.
SANCHEZ: Now is this related to the Warren Jeffs thing? You got started on this because you were having a bet with someone after watching the Warren Jeffs issue.
ORDOVER: No, no, no, no, no, I was at a party. I was at a party. I was doing -- we were talking about the Warren Jeffs thing. I said, at least this can't happen around here and a woman at the party said, want to bet? And it had happened to her, it happened to friends of hers. And I said, you know, I think I can do something about that, I think I can get the word out.
SANCHEZ: And that is why you decided to put this thing -- were you surprised? How many hits?
ORDOVER: Around 60 million at this point.
SANCHEZ: And these are just people out there, obviously you don't know if all of them are serious. But I would imagine a good bunch of them are.
ORDOVER: Well, that's the difference between hits and proposals and signups. But there's lots of interest in it and lots of outrage. I've never gotten so much hate mail in my life and I never hope to again.
SANCHEZ: Because they think you're serious.
ORDOVER: Yes, they think it's serious.
SANCHEZ: But isn't there something illegal about what these people are doing. I mean, some of the ones -- especially some of the guys out there who are trying to hook up with these young girls.
ORDOVER: No, there is nothing illegal at all, as long as they have parental permission and they're over the age the state -- in the particular state where they live, it's completely legal.
SANCHEZ: Well, here is what interesting about this. You are trying to make a point. You are in no way in favor of this type of thing.
ORDOVER: No, no, no, no. My...
SANCHEZ: Married guy, right?
ORDOVER: Right. My point is this, that we don't let 14-year- olds drive just because they have a note from their mother, we don't let them drink just because they have a note from their mother, why should we let them get married just because they have a note from their mother?
SANCHEZ: But there are people out there who are actually in favor of this and there are those who have a religious argument. What do you say to them, you know, Colorado, Utah, parts of Texas?
ORDOVER: And Rastafarians can smoke pot, too. But you can do case-by-case exceptions. But the law on the books should not say, you can get married with parental permission at 13.
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you something. When I looked at your Web site, you've got some pictures of there of very young looking girls. I mean, do you have permission to use those pictures?
ORDOVER: Yes, I just downloaded them from a photo stock house with an unlimited license. SANCHEZ: So they're models. You could use them? I mean, are you a little concerned? Because when I watch this -- and I told our staff, I said, you know, we probably shouldn't put this on the air because there's a possibility that some of these young girls' parents are going to come back and say, oh my God, we didn't expect that they would be used in this light.
ORDOVER: Well, I got the approval of the site to use them in this way. I bought them from the site. My contract is with the site. If any parent was upset and wanted to write and ask me to take...
SANCHEZ: You'd take them off?
ORDOVER: Yes. Just swap them out or stamp them "engaged" and fuzz the picture out.
SANCHEZ: John Ordover, we thank you, sir, for taking time to talk to us and for bringing out something that people should know is taking place out there. We appreciate it.
ORDOVER: You're welcome, marryourdaughter.com.
SANCHEZ: Most Republicans would tell you the NRA is not exactly Rudy Giuliani's base. They may be now less so than before. Why he's speaking to them, but he still has his cell phone on and didn't turn it off and suddenly it rings, it's his wife and he talks to her while he's giving a speech. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIULIANI: Just think of the language of it, the language of it is "the people shall be secure." Let's see now. This is my wife calling I think.
Hello, dear. I'm talking to the members of the NRA right now. Would you like to say hello?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: A lot of questions being asked, first of all, how did he know it was his wife calling and, frankly, why didn't he just out of respect have the cell phone turned off? We don't know, by the way, whether he was able to return the call a little bit later.
There you go. Each week, we're going to bring you someone who has opted out of the 9:00 to 5:00 thing to follow their dream as well. Tonight, a former power broker who ditched the corner office for much greener pastures. Ali Velshi with tonight's "Life after Work" segment.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New York. Bright lights. Big city. And Bob Works (ph) traded it had all in for something completely different. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We call our farm a food farm. We have sheep, that's our primary animal product. And from the sheep, we make cheese. We process meat. We will process wool.
VELSHI: Bob and his wife Ann (ph) run Peaked Mountain Farm in Townshend, Vermont. They moved there 12 years ago when the company Bob worked for in New York went public and he cashed out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I was 48 years old, I retired from my chosen, and my passionate profession. I love corporate real estate. It was my total career. It was a great way to make a living. But I wanted a profession or a new chapter in my life that would allow me to learn something new.
VELSHI: So every morning at 4:00 a.m., their day begins. Milking the sheep, herding them into pastures, feeling the pigs, and then it's time to make the cheese.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We produce 6,000 pounds of raw sheep's milk cheese. So it's a 14-hour day easy. And that's every day without exception. It's -- I don't want to make it sound like this slave labor or something. But we also have the pleasure of stopping what we're doing, having lunch together, eating the food as we make it. It's a great way to live.
VELSHI: Ali Velshi, CNN.
SANCHEZ: Who was this guy? And what was he doing with O.J. Simpson? He is next, that is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. We've got one last pic for you tonight. It's the mug shot of the sixth defendant in the O.J. Simpson robbery case. Charles Ehrlich turned himself in today in Las Vegas. He's described as an acquaintance of Simpson, faces the same 11 charges as Simpson and the other four men already charged in the armed robbery of sports collectibles in Las Vegas.
I'm Rick Sanchez. Thanks so much for being with us. Hasta lunes. Here's Larry King.
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