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Out in the Open
Interview With Former Mexican President Vicente Fox; Immigrants Running Scared in Texas?
Aired October 13, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: We're back from Dallas.
Another FOX News anchor has made some questionable comments that many African-Americans may find offensive. And there's a big development in the Jena Six case. We will have it for you.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Tens of thousands marched to free him. Is a judge getting back at those black activists? This is a Deep South shocker. Mychal Bell is back in jail.
Staying in the South, some Mexican-Americans say, suddenly, they feel like prey.
What about it, Mr. Mayor?
HERBERT GEARS, MAYOR OF IRVING, TEXAS: Absolutely, I deny that. The fact that people are telling you those stories doesn't make those stories true.
SANCHEZ: Tonight, OUT IN THE OPEN, we check the record.
No holds barred with Mexico's former president. Is Mexico to blame for our immigration problem? I ask him point blank, why have corrupt Mexican leaders robbed their people blind?
(on camera): How do you explain that?
(voice-over): After a shooting rampage at a Cleveland school, an outrageous comment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE BIG STORY")
JOHN GIBSON, HOST, "THE BIG STORY": And I could tell right away, because he killed himself. Black shooters don't do that. They shoot and move on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: What? FOX News anchor John Gibson has some explaining to do.
This man wants all illegal immigrants out. Even her?
(on camera): Your entire life, you have lived as an American? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I was raised. I eat pizza, hamburgers.
SANCHEZ: She acts and sounds as American as you and me, but she's illegal.
We continue our fight for this little guy. The dishwasher's life savings disappeared at the airport. We found another case, and he got his money back.
And Anna Nicole Smith back in the news. She's been dead for eight months. Why are they still searching her doctors' homes today? It is OUT IN THE OPEN for you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody. Que tal. And I'm Rick Sanchez.
We are getting overwhelming response to our focus on the immigration mess and that trip we took down to Dallas-Irving area last night.
We were in Irving, Texas, where there is a police crackdown, which is creating panic in the Latino community. Many there say that. More than 35,000 of you have responded to the question that we put up last night, 35,000. We asked, who should be in charge of immigration, the feds or the locals?
Sixty-six percent of you said the feds. Thirty-four percent of you said, let the locals do it.
OK. So, what's really going on? In Irving, as in other places around the country, locals are doing what the feds have failed to do. Some Mexicans, legal and illegal, some that are U.S. citizens, are citing cases of police abuse with this new law. They call it -- their words -- open season on Mexicans.
But we wanted to be fair, so I flew down and I asked the mayor about this myself last night. He says, look, I have checked out these cases, and none of them are true.
So, now we have got Keith Oppenheim, who's been checking on what the mayor said.
Keith, you know, it's interesting, because most of the folks I talked to down there said, look, we like this guy. We think it's always been a good mayor. But, recently, it seemed like he's changed things and so has the way police officers look at us.
What did you find?
KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, what the mayor said, Rick, Mayor Herbert Gears of Irving, says is that he believes there is no racial profiling going on. But today I talked to a number of people in the Latino community. And their perception is that racial profiling is going on. For example, I spoke to one undocumented Latino woman, and she told me that her neighbor just a few weeks ago was driving, taking the trash to the dumpster, in her opinion, not committing any crime. The police stopped the guy, she says. He doesn't have a license. Two days later, she tells me that he is deported.
Now listen to a gentleman by the name of Alberto Munoz. He's a legal resident, originally from Colombia, and he owns a pinata store here in Irving.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALBERTO MUNOZ, RESIDENT OF IRVING: Well, my sense is that there's actual racial profiling going on.
As an example, I was driving down Irving Boulevard, coming to the business. And there was a white pickup. They were right in front of me. I was doing 30. They were not moving faster than I was, so they couldn't be any farther than that. And a police car just stopped them.
And the only thing I can think is, this is a pickup. There were some Hispanic guys in it and they got stopped.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: So, I understand that, this weekend, some folks are going to be digging in their heels on both sides, right? What's going to happen?
OPPENHEIM: That's right, really two rallies taking place tomorrow.
One is a Latino rally, maybe about 1,000 people or so. And they're going to be calling for an end of deportations. And then there's going to be a smaller rally of people who want an illegal crack -- want enforcement of the laws.
And, so, really the interesting thing here, Rick, is that everyone sort of says the same thing. They want immigration reform, but that means very different things to different groups here.
SANCHEZ: All right. And I know they're all responsible citizens down there, and I'm sure it will be peaceful and everyone will be able to air their opinions.
Keith Oppenheim, we thank you for staying on top of that. We will be over that coverage this weekend, by the way.
Joining us is now a regular to OUT IN THE OPEN. You have come to known him for his hard stance on illegal immigration. Dan Stein is the president of the group that is called, FAIR, Federation for American Immigration Reform. I was thinking about you yesterday. I went down, Dan, to the consulate's office in Dallas, and I was interviewing some people. And I was taken aback by some of the people who were there. But there's one lady in particular. Her name is Lillian. And I had a conversation with her.
And I want you to listen to what she has to say and then I want to talk to you about it on the backside.
Let's go ahead. We will let the homes and Dan listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Your entire life you have lived as an American?
LILLIAN, ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT: Yes. I was raised. I eat pizza, hamburgers. I eat everything.
SANCHEZ: And yet America is now saying we don't want you here?
LILLIAN: No, they don't want me here.
SANCHEZ: And Mexico doesn't even know you exist either?
LILLIAN: They only have a birth certificate saying I am Mexican. That's all they have about me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Remember, Dan, last time we were talking and I said there's no question that there's a lot of people that probably should be deported, and we should control our borders, but there are also some people in this country who just seem like they should be the exception, somebody like this young lady. She seems to be no less American than you or I, right? Shouldn't we have a system that whittles through this and finds out who's good, who's bad, who should go, who should stay?
DAN STEIN, PRESIDENT, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: Well, Rick, the point is, look, I have been listening very closely and long and hard to everything you have been saying. And I have got to tell you, I don't agree with a thing you're saying.
(LAUGHTER)
STEIN: I mean, honestly, I just don't.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: I appreciate that.
(CROSSTALK)
STEIN: Well, the point is, look, you say I want all illegal aliens deported. Look, I would be happy to see a few people deported. I would be happy to see the rule of law restored in this area. And what's going on down in Irving is basically an attack by the Mexican government and the consulates on the rule of law, the thing that actually ties together this highly diverse society. You lose the rule of law and the basic principles involved, and I'm telling you you're headed down a very dark path in this country.
SANCHEZ: We know that, but, Dan, what we're talking about...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Wait. Hold on. Give me just a second. I know. And you will have plenty of time to talk.
What we're talking about is, how broad a net do you cast? And it seems that some of these local officials, and they say, look, we're doing it because nobody is doing it at the federal level. And I get that and you get that, and there we agree.
But if the net is thrown out there to catch everything, you're going to catch some good fish with the bad fish as well. And that's the point that I'm making as well.
Do you get that?
STEIN: Well, but the point is I think you are trying to confuse what I think is a very straightforward issue. There's no area of enforcement of any kind of law enforcement in this country where feds and locals do not partner, except in the immigration context.
And that's one of the reasons why we lost control of the borders. The Mexican government and the consulates would never tolerate U.S. interference in its own domestic policies. I believe Vicente Fox ought to follow the golden rule, which is basically they ought to treat us the way they would want to be treated in their own country.
We have an immigration law. And, naturally, it should respect basic human rights. We need to have cops stop on reasonable suspicion, articulable suspicion...
SANCHEZ: Of course.
STEIN: ... not on the basis of just how you look. And I think that's been what's going on down there.
And I think we have got a big crisis in this country, and there's people in this country who do not want the U.S. to control its borders, Rick.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you this question point blank.
STEIN: Sure.
SANCHEZ: There's an estimated 12 to 20 million in this people who are considered illegal immigrants. If you could figure out a way to get every single one of them out of the country tomorrow, would you?
STEIN: You remember what Chairman Mao said? I'm not fond of quoting him. But, you know, the road to success starts with one step.
The road to success here starts with getting rid of one person who has broken the law. People need to ask themselves down in Texas, did I respect U.S. laws?
SANCHEZ: Right.
STEIN: Did I play by the rules? If the answer is no...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: You're not answering my question, Dan. What I want to know is, do you want them all out? Or are you willing to come up with a plan that screens and chooses who stays and who goes?
STEIN: But, look, we all want a system that works.
If there were less gravity, Rick, we would all run faster.
(LAUGHTER)
STEIN: You're asking questions that have nothing to do with the real world.
We're trying to start a system that is going to command respect around the world, so that we can be proud of an immigration policy that none of the rest of the world will respect, but that serves our interests as well.
Irving is about getting the job done. We have got to start somewhere. It's not going to be easy. It's an emotional issue. There are ways built into the law for tough cases. I don't know the facts of this woman's case.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
STEIN: There may be a way she could get equitable relief. But let's not use one out-of-context case to try to make a policy. That's not how you do it.
SANCHEZ: Right. And I'm just trying to get guys like you to agree to some kind of plan, rather than speaking in generalities.
(CROSSTALK)
STEIN: When you propose something that I can support, you are going to be the first to know, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Dan, I always enjoy having you.
STEIN: Thanks.
SANCHEZ: You're a friend of this newscast, and we appreciate you, man.
All right, look, Americans have a right to protect their border, right, and decide who stays and who goes in this country. But since nobody is doing that, some communities are literally just throwing them all out, or as many as they can get.
We have been referring to it as casting a wide net. You heard that in our conversation with Mr. Stein just moments ago. In no city right now in the United States is this more evident than in a place called Tulsa, Oklahoma, where there is a law that's about to go into effect in November that says, even if all you do is give an illegal immigrant a ride in your car, a ride in your car -- knowingly, of course -- you could go to jail for a year.
Immigrants are so frightened there that they're now leaving the city in droves. Chamber of Commerce is estimating 20,000 to 30,000 people have already left, 10,000 more likely to flee before this new law goes into effect in November.
Joining us now is Judy Feary. She sees what's going on firsthand. As a matter of fact, she's the principal of a school with one heck of a story to tell.
What are you seeing there? Describe it to us, Judy.
JUDY FEARY, TULSA ELEMENTARY SCHOOL PRINCIPAL: What I'm seeing is people who have been here are picking up. They're leaving. Some are going back to Mexico. Others are going back to other states. Many are schooling their children on what to do if they don't come home in the evening. So, I have very stressed families and very stressed children.
SANCHEZ: What are the children saying to you? I know they're young, but I imagine you could probably look into their eyes and kind of figure out, if not just have downright conversations with them.
FEARY: We do.
They're afraid. You know, what child wouldn't be, if your parents are telling you, if we're not here tonight, you make sure the door is locked, make sure your siblings are fed, you call these people, you try to get help any way you can?
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Hold on. Let me just stop you. Did you just say that children are telling you that their parents are saying this to them?
FEARY: Oh, yes. They're preparing their children for what might happen if they don't come home in the evening.
SANCHEZ: Man, that's got to be tough. No matter what side of this issue you're on, imagine parents having to tell their children, mom and dad may not be here tomorrow and these are your instructions to carry on without us. That's tough. FEARY: It is, it's tough, and then they're afraid to send their children to school, because there's a lot of rumors. The community doesn't have formal media access, so most of it is word of mouth. And so they're hearing INS is going to pick them up on the way to school. They're going to come to school, if they come to school functions, and pick them up.
SANCHEZ: You know, as a principal, you must be torn, because I know you're a principal, you're a teacher, because your obligation is to children. And children are children, no matter where they come from or what color they are.
But at the same time, you live in a community that says, man, we're fed up with this. There's just too many of these people here. How are you dealing with this, Judy?
FEARY: We're doing what we're supposed to do. And that is educating children and taking care of them and their families, and offering them the services we can, so those children can learn.
To us, it's a human issue, because we see their little faces, and we know the families and how hard they work and how they have been there to support the school and doing the right things by their families.
SANCHEZ: But you had parent night recently, and not a lot of Hispanic parents showed up, right?
FEARY: We had to do a lot of talking to get them to come. We even had a health fair where they could get free immunizations and get health screenings.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Because they thought they were about to be rounded up at the school?
FEARY: Yes, they had been told that INS would be there to pick them up and take them and then take their children into DHS custody. So, they were very afraid to come to a place that they have trusted in the past.
SANCHEZ: That's an amazing story.
Hey, Judy, thanks so much for sharing it with us. We appreciate it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: You all but call him a phony cowboy in your book, right?
FOX: Yes, I do, a windshield cowboy.
SANCHEZ: A windshield cowboy?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: A former Mexican leader's true feelings about the president of the United States. He visits Out In The Open to talk with us about immigration issues, also how much his own darn country is to blame.
Also, federal agents holding down a detainee and injecting him with psychotropic drugs? We investigate this one. It's an OUT IN THE OPEN exclusive, as a matter of fact.
And then another FOX News anchor giving his listeners a lesson on black shooters. Yes, it's what you think it is. No, it's not a drink.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And we welcome you back to OUT IN THE OPEN, proud to have you here.
Tens of thousands marched to free him. Why is the principal Jena Six defendant back in jail tonight?
OUT IN THE OPEN has been one of the few news shows that has been all over this story from the very beginning, we might add, no bandwagon here. In a few minutes, we are going to bring you this Deep South shocker OUT IN THE OPEN.
I want to tell you now about a story that recently caught our attention. And it was so troubling that we decided to bring it OUT IN THE OPEN. Would you agree that federal immigration officials are accused of injecting immigrants with antipsychotic drugs that are meant for real serious mental illnesses just to try and make them easier to transport?
According to a lawsuit that is filed by the ACLU, that's what officials from Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE, allegedly did to two immigrants in their custody.
Our Thelma Gutierrez has been investigating these claims and has this exclusive report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Behind these gates and barbed wire, hundreds of detainees are awaiting deportation. Some allege what happened inside is nothing short of torture.
AHILAN ARULANANTHAM, ACLU ATTORNEY: It would be torture to give a power antipsychotic drug to somebody who isn't even mentally ill.
GUTIERREZ: ACLU Ahilan Arulanantham says the U.S. government forcefully injected two of his clients with psychotropic drugs, chemically restraining them as they were about to be deported on commercial flights.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They pushed the bench. And they opened my pants, and they just give injection. And I said, why? Why, guys, you are doing this to me? I'm not an animal, I said.
GUTIERREZ: Raymond Suo (ph), the Christian minister from Indonesia seeking political asylum, was detained for 27 months. He says on the morning he was about to be deported, he was distraught and demanded to say goodbye to his wife. Guards from Immigration and Customs Enforcement, also known as ICE, came to his cell, held him down, and injected him with a mystery drug.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I cry and cry until I getting sleep.
GUTIERREZ: In a stupor, Raymond was taken to the airport for the long flight home, but two hours before takeoff, airline security refused to transport him, so ICE agents returned Raymond to his cell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And when I wake up, I feel my body is like different, kind of like I'm not normal anymore.
GUTIERREZ (on camera): How long did this effect last?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two days, actually.
GUTIERREZ (voice-over): Amadou Diouf, an African immigrant on an expired visa, says he was injected, too, as he was about to be deported on the plane right before takeoff.
AMADOU DIOUF, FORMER ICE DETAINEE: I told a stewardess sin French that I needed to speak to the captain.
GUTIERREZ: Amadou Diouf says he had this with him, a federal stay of deportation, and he wanted to show the captain. He says his U.S. government escorts wouldn't let him.
DIOUF: I was wrestled to the ground and injected through my clothes. It's like I was being forced to be relaxed.
GUTIERREZ: This government report says he was medicated because he did not follow orders.
(on camera): So many Americans would be hard-pressed to believe this story.
ARULANANTHAM: I was hard-pressed to believe it, but we have documentary proof in the medical records.
GUTIERREZ: We reviewed Raymond Suo's (ph) medical records. And, in fact they shows he was injected with Haldol, an antipsychotic drug prescribed for mental illnesses, like schizophrenia. According to his medical records, Raymond has no history of mental illness.
DR. PAUL APPELBAUM, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: I'm really shocked to find out that the government has been using physicians and using potent medications in this way.
GUTIERREZ: We also asked Dr. Paul Appelbaum, a professor of psychiatry, law and ethics at Columbia University, to review Raymond and Amadou's medical records. He says Haldol requires that a doctor see the patient in person because of potential serious side effects. In Raymond's case, that didn't happen.
APPELBAUM: That is the sort of thing that would be subject to a malpractice claim in the civilian world.
GUTIERREZ: Amadou's records show he was given a drug, but the name of the drug was not documented.
CNN contacted ICE officials, who declined to speak on camera, citing pending litigation and the Privacy Act. In fact, the only time a high-ranking ICE official has publicly spoken about these allegations was last month during Assistant Secretary Julie Myers' nomination hearings. She expressed deep concern about the reports and said -- quote -- "Detainees should never be medicated solely to facilitate their deportation."
(on camera): How does it feel to be back at Terminal Island the first time since your detention?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very, very sad.
GUTIERREZ: Raymond Suo (ph) and Amadou Diouf say they are forever changed by their experience in U.S. custody and wonder how many others were drugged and deported.
Thelma Gutierrez, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Isn't that an amazing story?
I want you to know now that, after the ACLU filed a suit against the government, they have changed their policy. And now officials have to get a court order before medicating their detainees.
But let's find out more about how these drugs are supposed to be used and the what dangers are of using them incorrectly on people who maybe aren't even mentally ill.
Joining us now is Dr. Gail Saltz. She's an associate professor of psychiatry at New York Presbyterian Hospital.
I was watching your reaction as you were watching Thelma's report, and you just kept shaking your head.
DR. GAIL SALTZ, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY, THE NEW YORK PRESBYTERIAN HOSPITAL AT WEILL-CORNELL SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Well, it's a very disturbing report.
I mean, if these allegations are in fact true, it's very disturbing, because in fact medication should never be administered certainly without a physician examining and saying that there's a legitimate reason why that medication is needed.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: So, that's the first problem, no physician, right? OK. SALTZ: That's the first problem. If there's no physician, that's a huge problem.
SANCHEZ: All right.
SALTZ: Second of all, medications should never be administered against someone's will, unless they are a real threat to others or to themselves, and then for the purpose that it's needed. In other words, if it's an antipsychotic, it better be because you're psychotic.
SANCHEZ: Well, let me stop you there, because make these fellows would make an argument over here, the feds would, look, this guy was out of control.
SALTZ: Right.
SANCHEZ: At one point I read in the report, by the way, that he wanted to go talk to the pilot.
SALTZ: Absolutely.
SANCHEZ: That could be perceived as a threat. We need to do something to control this guy. And what's wrong with using drugs to control? It beats the heck out of slugging him in the face.
(CROSSTALK)
SALTZ: And what are we going to do?
Certainly, slugging him in the face is not OK.
SANCHEZ: Right.
SALTZ: But law enforcement is well-trained I would say at being able to subdue people if they need to be subdued without using medications.
Medications are for a medical purpose. And by the way, if you are going to sedate someone, if that's the issue, sedation, in other words, they're out of control and you have to do something to make them quiet, then you give them of something in the family of say a benzodiazepine, like Ativan or Valium. You don't give them an antipsychotic, which has serious side effects.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: All right, so, you give me a sedative, in other words. Apparently, they gave them Haldol.
SALTZ: Haldol.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: What is Haldol? SALTZ: Haldol, it is in the class of drugs called antipsychotic. It's used for if you're having psychotic thoughts, meaning you have lost touch with reality. And you are...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: So, it's for people who really are out there?
SALTZ: Who are out there. It's not for just schizophrenia, but other psychotic symptoms, yes.
But the point is that Haldol -- in fact just recently there was a report that a high dose of Haldol can actually cause cardiac effects.
SANCHEZ: Wow.
SALTZ: It's called prolonging. It changes user cardiogram and can make you really, extremely ill. But there are terrible side effects.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: No, you're absolutely right. It sounds like obviously some decisions made here that they are now rethinking. And it sounds like they're going to be able to fix some of this stuff.
Hey, thanks for being with us, Doctor.
SALTZ: My pleasure.
SANCHEZ: We very much appreciate it, Dr. Gail Saltz.
Mexico's former president doesn't shy away from any tough questions. Next, how much is his own country to blame for the mess that is going on south of the border and over the border? Also, what does he really think about President Bush?
And then later, a FOX News anchor tells his viewers about what he knows about black shooters and how they're different from white shooters. You got to hear this one.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We welcome you back to OUT IN THE OPEN. I'm Rick Sanchez.
We have been talking an awful lot about immigration and whose responsibility it is in dealing with it, but here's another angle to consider. What about Mexico's responsibility?
After all, there's a history there of corruption. So, when I had a chance to speak with the former president of Mexico, Vicente Fox, that's kind of what I wanted to know about. So, I asked him point blank about the difference between him as the author of "Revolution of Hope" and his predecessors, who seemed to just disappear after office, after robbing their people blind. I know there's an expression that we learned from our parents growing up Hispanic. (SPEAKING SPANISH) my dad would often say. It means stealing from the people. That's a common theme in Latin America.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Mr. President, thanks so much for being with us, sir.
VICENTE FOX, FORMER MEXICAN PRESIDENT: Pleasure to be here. Thank you. And congratulations for this program.
SANCHEZ: Men who have had your positions in the past in Mexico and in other countries have often sat around counting the money, as Latin Americans would say, (SPEAKING SPANISH) that have taken from the people.
And I don't mean that as an insult. I mean it as a perception. You're doing something different. Why?
FOX: Well, first of all, yes, those comments are written in that book. But why? Because I just have to keep on working on democracy, transparency, accountability, because I don't think it's democratic for a president to hide away, to run away, to disappear, which is the culture in Mexico.
I'm trying to build up a real democratic culture, working with the people, being with the people.
SANCHEZ: Why is there in -- at least why is there such a perception of corruption, not only in Mexico, but in Latin America? How do you explain that?
FOX: Well, 72 years of predominance in Mexico generated a huge amount of corruption, because there was no democracy. It was an authoritarian government.
SANCHEZ: You and our president had planned to come up with some type of immigration reform policy that would be for the betterment of both countries, but it fell by the wayside. Take us back to that time.
FOX: We felt because of September 11 we were very close to going through with the reform of Congress, but September the 11th came and changed everything, and what I perceive in this nation is a fear is yet dominating the scenario, and xenophobic have taking advantage of Congress not deciding on the subject. I really urge the Congress -- U.S. Congress to take a position and a decision on migration, because it's an issue that can be not a problem, but an opportunity.
SANCHEZ: Let me tell you about another perception in this country, whether it's a misperception or not, and that is that the immigrants, illegal or not, who come to this country are essentially filling up our hospitals, filling up our schools, and not paying their fair share. You write about that in your book, you say: "Once in the United States, the average immigrant will pay about 80,000 more in taxes than he or she ever collects in government services, a $50 billion surplus to the U.S. government."
Can you substantiate that?
FOX: Yes. It's people that is working here, they're getting a salary, and their social welfare is not being paid to them. It happened with Villisaro (ph) program, they were charged with the social fees for the social programs and they never got the services or they never got their money back.
SANCHEZ: So the argument is they obviously pay sales taxes every time they go to the store and by something. They pay property taxes because they have to live somewhere, even if they don't pay it, their landlord pays it. They have a federal tax I.D., so money is taken from their paychecks, but the argument that you're making is many of them don't see that money back, because they don't stay here long enough and they don't collect Social Security?
FOX: That's right. That's right.
SANCHEZ: There's one thing I need to ask you about and that's your relationship with the president of the United States. You all but call him a phony cowboy in your book, right?
FOX: Si. I do, a windshield cowboy.
SANCHEZ: A windshield cowboy?
FOX: Yeah, I notice that he drives the pickup very well, but he would not ride a horse.
SANCHEZ: Not a real cowboy.
FOX: Not a real cowboy. Some buy boots, cowboy boots, trying to mean or convey that they're cowboys but, no, you notice the difference.
SANCHEZ: (speaking foreign language)
FOX: (speaking foreign language)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: A Cleveland school shooting and a FOX NEWS anchor's swipe at black people. Wait until you hear this one. It is outrageous.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Another FOX NEWS anchor puts his foot in his mouth. John Gibson says he could tell right away that the gunman in the Cleveland school shooting was white. African-Americans are asking, really now? How's that? We'll have that for you. We've uncovered new information that could affect a story that we've been following for weeks here. You remember Pedro Zapeta? He's the illegal dishwasher who worked in the United States for over 10 years, saved $59,000, only to have the U.S. government seize all of it when he tried to leave the country with his cash savings?
Well now it turns out there was a similar case that we have found that made it all the way to the nation's highest court and the immigrant in that case got nearly all of his money back. Could that case give Pedro new reason to hope? Our John Zarrella has been following it for us, he's joining us from Fort Lauderdale Airport with the latest.
What do you got -- John.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey Rick, well you know that law that says you can't travel outside the country if you don't declare if you're carrying more than $10,000, was originally designed to keep drug traffickers from taking their proceeds out of the country, so Pedro Zapeta's far from the first person to ever have his money taken. But his case, his fate may be linked to what the Supreme Court decided in another case.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Pedro Zapeta was going home to Guatemala with nearly every penny he made as a dishwasher in Stuart, Florida, $59,000 in cash, all in a duffel bag when it was seized. The government isn't giving it back, all because he says he simply made a mistake.
PEDRO ZAPETA, CASH SEIZED BY GOVT (through translator): Truthfully, I didn't know I had to declare the money. There was nothing bad about that money.
ZARRELLA: Under U.S. law, you must declare if you're carrying more than $10,000 cash out of the country. Whether Pedro ultimately gets his money back may hinge on what happened to this man -- vHosep Bajakajian, a California gas station owner.
In 1994 Bajakajian, a Syrian immigrant, was leaving Los Angeles with $357,000 in cash, money to pay back loans to family. U.S. Customs seized it. Listen to what he said at the time.
HOSEP BAJAKAJIAN, HAD $357,000 CONFISCATED: I didn't know about really the law and I was scared of the customs in Syria, because if they get your money, they take it.
ZARRELLA: Sound familiar? In Pedro's case, prosecutors said Zapeta gave conflicting stories about the cash when he was confronted. What did Bajakajian do?
BAJAKAJIAN: They asked me question, if you had the money, I said, no, it was the mistake on my behalf. I was scared, really.
ZARRELLA: There are differences, too. Pedro is illegal and didn't pay taxes on all he earned. Bajakajian is a legal immigrant who paid taxes.
Bajakajian sued to get his money back and his case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court which ruled the gas station owner should get all but $15,000 back. Anymore, the nation's highest court said, was excessive, disproportionate to the crime.
JAMES BLATT, ATTY FOR BAJAKAJIAN: To me it's a bully taking advantage of a much weaker individual.
ZARRELLA: James Blatt represented Hosep Bajakajian. To them, the Zapeta case is an outrage.
BLATT: The spirit of Bajakajian is to be fair, to be decent, to people who have made a mistake, but have lawfully earned the money and were taking the money out or in for a lawful purpose.
ZARRELLA: Pedro was leaving Fort Lauderdale Airport taking the money home to Guatemala, he says to build a home for his mother and sisters when it was seized.
(on camera): In its complaint, the U.S. government says that Pedro Zapata passed not one, but two signs that stated the U.S. requirement that anyone carrying more than $10,000 in cash must report it. So, we came here to the international airport at Fort Lauderdale International Airport. And guess what? We can't find any signs.
(voice-over): I asked security screeners, ticket agents, airport employees, no one knew where to find a sign. It may have been here two years ago when Pedro was stopped. Not anymore.
The government will not comment on the case, so now Zapeta waits for his appeal, hoping the case of a dishwasher ends the same way of that of a gas station owner.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Well, wait a minute, John. If there's no signs, or at least none that you saw, and if nobody at the ticket counter said, hey, are you carrying more than $10,000? Then how's an average citizen, no less than somebody who's from a different country, to know that they're supposed to declare it?
ZARRELLA: Well, that's the question, and what actually happened with Pedro, of course, he was stopped by screeners, they immediately called the interdiction task force, because Pedro's giving conflicting statements, they think it's drug money, so they seize his money thinking it's drug money.
But, no, you're right, we asked and the people we talked to at the ticket counter said, look, you can get that form when you get your form on the airplane, but Pedro was stopped before he ever got through screening process.
SANCHEZ: Right, right.
ZARRELLA: That's a tough on, Rick. SANCHEZ: Yeah, I talked to my sources, my friends down there where you are, as a matter of fact, with immigration, they're saying he's really got a heck of a case, if the only persons who ever detected it were the screeners, and not the guys at the ticket counter.
John Zarrella, as usual, great work keeping up on top of this story for us. We'll get back to you.
FOX NEWS anchor, John Gibson, using a school tragedy to take a swipe at African-Americans? And now he's saying he did nothing wrong. Wait until you hear this one.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Here's that story we've been telling you about that we've been following since the inception. This is a teenager at the center of the Jena Six case. He's back in jail tonight on a probation violation. This is a development that's bound to add more tension to this racially charged case. Let's try to catch you up on some of the facts. In fact, let me go over to the big wall, as they call it, to just catch you up.
I know that this is one of those cases that's got a lot of hanging elements out there, so here we go. A year ago it was a high school in Jena, Louisiana, a group of black students got permission to sit under that tree where usually only white students sat.
The next day three white students hung nooses from the tree. They were suspended, but they were not prosecuted. That started sparking lots of problems in the school. As they say, it escalated. There were fights. In early December, a black students had a bottle broken over his head. White student in that case was not charged.
Now, there's another fight, this time it's black students beating up a white kid for no good reason, it happens in school. Those black kids in this case are charged with attempted murder. One of them is Mychal Bell. He's convicted of battery.
Let me bring you back here, because that's what happens now. That leads to outrage all over the country and people start e-mailing each other and people start checking their Web site and they all show up. Tens of thousands of them, right there, for a huge protest in Jena. They're calling this unjust treatment.
So, getting all the attention, a conviction is finally thrown out. There you see the Reverend Al Sharpton, he's with Mychal Bell, he's finally released from jail. Judge says you can go out on bond, but you got to pay $45,000, some folks help to pay it.
Now, here's the new information. This is a hearing that just happened yesterday, and apparently a judge has now sentenced him back to jail for 18 months, for violating probation on four earlier convictions. So, some people, like the Reverend Al Sharpton are saying the sentence is a judge's revenge. Reverend Sharpton is on the line with us now, and he's good enough to join us to bring us up to date on what's going on.
Reverend Al Sharpton, tell us what your reaction was when you heard of this decision by this judge.
REV AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Well, I'm an international gathering where there are heads of state from the Caribbean and Africa, and they were all stunned when I got the word because the thing that I think you must remember is the same judge that was the judge that had the juvenile hearing yesterday was the same judge...
SANCHEZ: Right. That's J.P. Mauffray is his name.
SHARPTON: J.P. Mauffray, was the same judge that convicted him as an adult for attempted murder that was overturned by the court, so when we say it's revenge, we're not talking about two different judges. There's one judge in Jena, he's the juvenile judge, he's the adult judge, the third circuit in Louisiana overturned him for the conviction on adult charges for attempted murder for the same person. Now he becomes the juvenile judge and brings this young man in on probation violation on things that are previous to this incident, gives him 18 months in jail. Not even considering the fact the young man did 10 months in jail on the attempted murder charge that now the third circuit court said he should have never been tried as an adult, never been convicted.
SANCHEZ: So you're saying this is a clear-cut case of a judge's revention, but some people will look at the case and say, but wait a minute, even if he's not tried as an adult, which obviously that's changed, did he still violate his parole by getting into that fight, knowing he was on parole at the time?
SHARPTON: If he violated his parole he should be dealt with like any other juvenile violating parole. But then how do you not factor in, that you have now, according to your own Louisiana state court, you had him improperly prosecuted as an adult and he went to jail for 10 months.
The picture you're showing of me hugging him, he had done 10 months in jail that they now say he should not have done. So, you would think in balance they would have factored that in.
SANCHEZ: And it's called time served. I think anybody watching this show understands that very well, and it is a good question that you raise to why he didn't factor that in his sentence of 18 months. That's a year and a half, a lot of people would wonder if that's not excessive.
Reverend Al Sharpton, thanks again for catching up to us I know you got some business going on down there in the Caribbean. We'll see you when you get back to New York.
SHARPTON: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Another FOX NEWS anchor opens his mouth and out comes another insult against black people, and worse, he now is saying, on the record, that he's proud of what he says.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
We welcome you back. Tonight a comment by a FOX NEWS anchor that might just be bringing racism, yes, racism, into the discussion about Wednesday's terrible school shooting in Cleveland, Ohio.
Four people were wounded at the school before the 14-year-old gunman killed himself, but would you ever stop to think about the race of the shooter in a crime like that? Well, there's another FOX anchor who has seemingly put his foot in his mouth insulting black people, again. This time it's John Gibson. He said it on the day of the shooting, as a matter of fact. Here it is.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JOHN GIBSON, FOX NEWS RADIO: The shooter might have been African-American. It turns out it's a white kid. I knew it as soon as he shot himself, hip-hoppers don't do that. They shoot and move on to shoot again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: What was he thinking? Maybe that's what he's proud of. The Web site, Media Matters picked up this story and yesterday Gibson responded on his show to their criticism. Here's how the Web site quoted him:
"[Media Matters for America is] calling me a racist for what I said...Media Matters trashed me for saying these things, which I think were just obvious...course the guy in Cleveland was a white kid. He committed suicide. Gangster shooters don't do that. They're happy they got off the first shot. They're happy they killed the guy they were (first) aiming at."
He sure doesn't seem to be backing off from this, so he called Gibson's show and FOX for a response to this. They did not call us back.
CNN contributor Roland Martin has been following the controversy and he's joining us now to bring us up to date. I want to read something to you and to the viewer, OK? Because this is what I consider to be the line that is probably most problematic.
"And I could tell right away," he says to his listeners, "cause he killed himself. Black shooters don't do that. They shoot and move on..."
It almost sounds like he's saying white murderers have a conscience and black murders don't.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Rick, I wouldn't take that away from that. I think John's problem, frankly is he was extremely sloppy as he was trying to explain this issue to his audience. In fact, I talked about this very same issue. The reality is police officers, as well as the FBI, they often profile certain crimes. SANCHEZ: Right.
MARTIN: And so there are certain things that people do. And so when there's a particular crime, they want to say this is typically a white male, 25, 35, someone who's lonely. And so what John failed to do was educate his audience as to why you come to those conclusions.
And so look, I cover the Alfred P, Murrah Federal building when it blew up in Oklahoma City, and trust me, when that happened, the first thought wasn't that was an African-American who was in a gang who blew up a federal building.
You know, but again, though, we do think about these types of things. John's failure was to provide context as to why he thought that, but if you really begin to dig deeper into what he said -- I have a serious problem when he says, well, there's a white kid and gangsters don't do that. So, what he just did was he simply assumed that when you use the word "gangsters" it means African-Americans.
And so, then I was very bothersome, he talked about hip-hoppers. Well, this is a white kid and these hip-hoppers. Well, 80 percent of the people who buy hip-hop are white kids. And so frankly if you want to call somebody a hip-hopper, you can be referring to a white kid.
SANCHEZ: So let me get you right. Your problem with what he's saying is that you think there's a tendency, maybe not just with John, but perhaps with others at FOX NEWS, to equate hip-hop with African- Americans, almost as if that's the only...
MARTIN: Actually, Rick, I won't say that's a problem just with FOX. I mean, I was very critical even on CNN when Paula Zahn hosted the one hour special on hip-hop when I kept saying we can't interchange hip-hop and gangster rap, because hip-hop is a culture, whereas gangster rap is a form of the music.
The problem is, again, in people's minds when they just throw out hip-hop with crime. He's associating hip-hop with crime. He's associating gangsters with African-Americans. That's one of the issues.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But let me ask you -- back to that point at the beginning, because he doesn't say -- and here's where we get to it -- I can tell right away "cause he killed himself. Black shooters don't do that." Saying black shooters don't kill themselves.
MARTIN: But that's not...
SANCHEZ: He's not saying FBI profilers will tell you that African-American shooters...
MARTIN: There you go. And then that's the problem. As a talk show host I'm offended, because he doesn't provide any kind of context for his statement. He just simply throws it out there. The reality is you can discuss these kinds of issues and say, look, this is -- look, there are assumptions here. When we think of serial killers, the FBI will tell you automatically an African-American does not come to mind when we think of a serial killer.
So, you have to provide the kind of context, he didn't. But he certainly has troublesome issues there again when he begins to mix gangsters and hip-hop, many African-Americans involved with a white kid, is a little bit different.
SANCHEZ: Dangerous territory, we thank you for giving us your perspective on that. Roland Martin.
And we're going to be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We welcome you back. Story we've been following. Pictures from L.A., they're serving warrants at the home of one of Anna Nicole Smith's doctors. California authorities are investigating the doctors and the medical treatment that she received before her sudden death. They're looking at those prescriptions and seeing if anyone dispensed practices of her doctors and the pharmacies that she's used because of what died (ph).
All right, we'll continue to follow that for you. Thanks so much for being with us, I'm Rick Sanchez. Larry King's up next. Hasta Manana.
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