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Out in the Open
Assassination Attempt on Former Pakistani Prime Minister Kills Over 100; Birth Control Pills For Sixth Grade Girls?
Aired October 18, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Watch and listen to these incredible images coming in from Pakistan. It's fires, dead bodies. And now we're getting into more pictures coming in from previous. We will have all of this for you OUT IN THE OPEN.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): It's the explosion that is sending aftershocks around the world. Pakistan erupting in flames and violence. Why should it matter to us? Here's why: a common enemy. More importantly, Pakistan has nuclear weapons. We're live amid the chaos in Karachi. We're joining Pakistanis living here in the U.S. as they watch the story unfold on our air.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you're interested in avoiding World War III...
SANCHEZ: The president talking about World War III? He's also mentioning the Russians and Iran.
We don't like to think about this, but we can't help it; 15 of 19 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia. Guess who is running this school in the shadow of our nation's Capitol? What are they teaching? It's our job to find out.
Birth control pills for sixth-grade girls free for the asking. Of course, with parents' approval, right? No. Is this a new trend? Where are we heading with this?
Glenn:
GLENN BECK, HOST, "GLENN BECK": You're usurping my responsibility as a parent.
SANCHEZ: But why is it OK to give boys condoms then, or is it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I took this flag down in honor of my country.
SANCHEZ: He told me he did it after hearing a radio show. We found the guy who got him going. He joins us.
It's OUT IN THE OPEN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BENAZIR BHUTTO, FORMER PAKISTANI PRIME MINISTER: I feel so proud of the people of Pakistan. I feel so very proud of them. It hurts us when people say the terrorists to come, whether they are bombing tubes in London, or whether they're plotting plots in Germany or doing things in other countries, have the trail leading back. That's not the real image of Pakistan. The people that you see outside are the real image of Pakistan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: That was earlier, the return of former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto. It was the sound of hope.
Now, hours later, a country is divided and the world has its collective eyes on Pakistan as a potential powder keg.
We're live in Karachi with correspondent Dan Rivers in the thick of the chaos. We're also live in New York among Pakistanis who are living here in the United States, watching developments as they unfold in their country.
There's the picture.
All right. Let's get started. Hello again, everybody. Que tal. I'm Rick Sanchez.
One of the handful of countries in the world with nuclear weapons is in upheaval tonight. Let's get you right to those pictures. A suspected suicide bomber struck during a huge welcome-home rally for former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto.
More than 100,000 people were literally dancing in the streets as it happened. They were crowding around her bus when suddenly this explosion -- you see it right there in the background -- took place. It was a huge fire.
Tonight, the numbers are continuing to go up. Let me just check my notes, because I keep crossing one number out and then going to another. It went from 98 to then 108. Now we're being told 124 people are dead. Let me check the injured. The injured is now at 320 people wounded.
By the way, we're being told that Bhutto herself was not hurt in this incident. Let's tell you a little bit about exactly what happened, as we prepare Dan Rivers, who is our correspondent. He was there on the scene actually following the situation for us.
We're also told, by the way, that Wendy Chamberlin is going to be joining us. And she's the person who actually knows as much about this as anybody. In fact she's the one who negotiated with Ambassador Musharraf right after 9/11.
Wendy Chamberlin, are you there?
WENDY CHAMBERLIN, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO PAKISTAN: Yes, I am. Thank you. SANCHEZ: Thanks so much for joining us.
Can you give us a sense of your take on this, as you heard the news just coming in several hours ago?
CHAMBERLIN: Well, I was just watching some of the images on your TV screen there. And I was really very saddened.
I mean, these are Pakistani people, 124 people. They all have families. Frankly, the Pakistani people deserve better than this. Violence in Karachi is not unusual. And unfortunately I think it's becoming part of the political system. Terrorists try to influence political events through terror, violence, indiscriminately to civilians. And it's a very sad thing.
SANCHEZ: But here's the thing that we need to know as we watch this unfold and as we watch these horrific pictures.
We know that the guys who have been gunning for Musharraf are essentially the guys who attacked us on 9/11, right? I mean, whether it's al Qaeda directly or not, they have to play some kind of hand in this, correct?
CHAMBERLIN: Well, we would certainly think so.
And, in fact, the al Qaeda and the Taliban have threatened Benazir Bhutto before she came back. She knew -- she went back to her homeland with her eyes open.
You know, about two weeks ago, she met with us at the Middle East Institute. And she told our crowd, about 400 people there -- and you could have heard a pin drop when Benazir Bhutto was asked this question about why she was going back, given the dangers.
And she said -- and it's worth repeating -- she said, you know, I'm preparing for the worst. I'm hoping for the best, but I'm putting my faith in the Pakistani people.
SANCHEZ: Yes, but she also did something else, Wendy. And this is important. She made some statements that apparently angered an awful lot of people there in Pakistan, those who are against Musharraf and those who are certainly against the United States being involved in their politics in any way. In fact, she was warned not to go back to the country because of the reaction that those statements were causing in the country, right?
CHAMBERLIN: Well, yes.
But if you look at the history of the electoral history of Pakistan, actually, the radicals don't do very well in the polls. Last time, they polled 11 percent and that was even exaggerated. We think it was actually much less. She's very popular.
The Pakistan -- PPP, Pakistan People's Party, usually polls very well. And that's perhaps what they are afraid of, her own popularity. SANCHEZ: Hey, Wendy, stop right there, if you can. We're going to come back to you in just a little bit, as we watch these pictures unfold.
I understand we now have Dan Rivers.
And, as we go to Dan, Will, go ahead and put up some of the pictures of the actual scene there on the ground as this was going on. We will put Dan's voice on top of that.
Dan, you were one of the few reporters who actually got to this scene shortly after it happened. I have been watching you, monitoring your reports throughout the course of the afternoon.
What did you see? How bad was this thing?
DAN RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was a horrendous scene when we arrived about 20 minutes after that twin suicide bombing.
There were bodies strewn across the road, body parts strewn across the road, and lots of injured people struggling to get into ambulances and be ferried back to hospital. There was a smoldering wreckage of one car which was pretty close to the vehicle that was carrying Benazir Bhutto.
That vehicle was damaged slightly at the back and on the side. The windshield was also cracked. But, miraculously, she apparently was not on top of the vehicle when the explosion happened. She had gone down below inside, into the armor-plated material of that specially designed vehicle. And, perhaps, that's the reason why she escaped without any serious injury.
SANCHEZ: We're looking at these pictures, and it looked for a while there like it was so crowded that even the ambulances couldn't get in.
Do you have any sense, or can you give us a sense of how many people were there when this guy actually pulled the plug on this bomb?
RIVERS: Oh, there were hundreds of people there. You know, it was absolutely mobbed by people.
You can see clearly on those dramatic pictures from local television which shows the moment that blast goes off. There are hundreds of people around this motorcade, as there had been all day and all evening. When we got there, there were still hundreds of people staring, dazed and confused, really, after the explosion, not really knowing what to do.
There were walking wounded and, as I say, a lot of dead bodies. We lost count of the number of bodies we saw lying on the side of the road and in the middle of the road, and many of them horribly, horribly disfigured as well, so, an absolutely appalling scene that greeted us when we got there.
And, really, what was remarkable to me (AUDIO GAP) no attempt, in the middle this chaos, to try and preserve the scene at all, after all the terrorist attacks in London. And, there, very quickly the police seal off the area. They get people away from the wreckage, in case there's a secondary explosion, but also to preserve the evidence, to preserve those vital forensic clues which might help them work out where these people came from, who they were, and why they did this.
None of that was being preserved. There were people walking all over the scene here, picking up bits of debris, taking them away, moving them around. So, that was pretty surprising to see.
SANCHEZ: Hey, Dan, we're going to have to wrap here in just a minute.
Stand by, though, because I definitely want to get back to you.
Quickly, though, I'm a little unsure, though -- and I think a lot of our viewers are -- as to whether this guy was actually targeting Benazir Bhutto, and how close he came to that bus that apparently she was riding on top of in that one chambered area, because there is also a report, am I not correct, that part of the windshields in that vehicle were blasted off, right?
RIVERS: The windshields were cracked, yes, and fairly badly cracked. And there was a bit of blast damage to the side.
But it appears that, if he was targeting her, he didn't detonate close enough to cause any real damage to her vehicle. We are still confused as to what exactly happened. But we seem to be getting the impression that there was one bomb that was in a vehicle and another was being carried by a suicide bomber.
The bomb that was in the vehicle seemed to explode at the side of Benazir Bhutto's bus, and not in the front of it, where she was. And because it was so well armor-plated, it didn't do that much damage. It left it slightly scorched and scratched, but didn't really (AUDIO GAP) the inside of it.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
RIVERS: And, at the front, there was really no damage at all.
SANCHEZ: This is an amazing story.
Dan Rivers is on top of it.
Again, we should probably remind viewers as they watch this that in fact Pakistan is one of about six, seven, eight countries in the world that are out there -- there are not that many of them -- that actually have nuclear weapons. That's why this becomes so important.
Also, there's the al Qaeda connection in the Waziristan area. We are going to break that down for you when we come back.
And, of course, Wendy is standing by. And we are going to be talking with her. It's a country escalating out of control. Next, what are Pakistanis here in the United States thinking as they watch these images. We are going to take you live to restaurants in New York City, where Pakistani-Americans watching our coverage.
Stay with us. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's really sad that we cannot, in our country, solve a problem diplomatically, and the discussion, it always boils down to violence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Those are Americans who are former Pakistanis. They're living in the United States, but they are very concerned about what's going on in their country right now. There's the pictures of people being taken out.
At last count, it's up to -- and this number keeps changing, by the way, for those of you who are watching our news. Let me look at our notes, back to 124 dead now. Over 320 people have been injured, as we look at these pictures.
It was just really mayhem. A car bomb went off as a motorcade was passing by with Pakistan's former prime minister, Benazir Bhutto. And we're going to be staying on top of this story, bringing you the very latest developments and the fallout as it relates to other parts of the world, including our own, and reaction from the White House as we're getting it.
There's already a statement out, as a matter of fact.
But let's do this now. We know that there's a lot of Pakistanis living in the United States. Many of them have been monitoring the situation by watching CNN. We have been making contact with them.
And now I think we have an opportunity to take you out there live. This is, I believe, in Midtown in New York City. It's a restaurant where Ammar Husan is standing by right now. As a matter of fact, he is 26 years old, originally from Lahore.
Hey, would you give us a sense of what your reaction is, and others like you, you have been talking to today out there watching these events unfold?
AMMAR HUSAN, BORN IN PAKISTAN: Before anything, I just wanted to say, from we come and to God we go.
And I have been so deeply saddened by the events that have occurred, that so many innocent people, so many innocent lives have been taken, and there seems to be no end to it, and something has to be -- has to be done, because this is not condoned by the religion of Islam.
Islam means in Arabic, it's a religion of being submissive to one's lord. And nowhere does it say to be thus violent, because the religion itself has spread not through the sword, but through kindness and happiness of the people. And...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Let me do something, if I can, Ammar.
Will, go ahead and show some of the pictures of what is actually going on in his country right now. I mean, I can see the pain in his eyes.
It's got to be difficult. Can you make me, as an American, understand why your country is so divided, why there are people on such an extreme side up in that area around Waziristan, where Osama bin Laden is said to be hiding out.
What do you believe? What do they want? Do you get them?
HUSAN: I don't. All I know is, Islam does not condone all this violence to innocent people. And people take things out of context out of the religion and justify it.
And nowhere does a Muslim justify -- from all my upbringing, I don't condone little children, women, civilians being killed. And watching these hundreds of people dead, it just doesn't sit right with any of us.
SANCHEZ: Ammar, thanks so much for joining us. We will be talking to other Pakistanis here in the United States. We appreciate you taking time to share your perspective with us on this.
HUSAN: Sure. Thanks.
SANCHEZ: There's more breaking news coverage ahead, both from the scene of tonight's explosion and from Pakistanis that have been watching it here as well.
Also here in the United States, nature's rampage. We're getting incredible pictures of what has been going on today with tornadic activity.
Also, the latest school handout for sixth-grade girls, birth control pills. Was there a really a need?
We will bring this OUT IN THE OPEN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. Let's look at some of the latest pictures that we have been getting from this bloody scene there in Karachi, Pakistan, 124 dead, 320 injured. Obviously, those numbers are expected to change. It happened on a bus with Benazir Bhutto just arriving back. She was hoping to cut the deal -- or has cut the deal and would soon be prime minister of her country once again, with Musharraf as president.
There, you see people running from the scene. It was tough for ambulances to get in. It's really been a wild scene.
Welcome back, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez.
As we follow this development here, I want to bring you up to date now on the significance of Pakistan itself.
Let's go over, if we can, Jeff. Follow me over here, because here's the map that separates these areas. And there's Afghanistan and there's Pakistan. That's important, because we have been hearing a lot -- you probably have -- about the term Waziristan.
Waziristan is that part of Pakistan far away from Karachi, obviously, further to the south, where Osama bin Laden is said to be hiding. And that's a very important part of this story, because, for the longest time, Taliban was right there in Afghanistan. So was al Qaeda, until the United States, after 9/11, decided to cut a deal with Musharraf to essentially separate those two countries from those factions.
By the way, it took a lot of money. And the person who did that deal, you're about to meet her, Wendy Chamberlin. She is joining us now right here as our guest.
And she brings us up to date on what is going on in Pakistan.
How has this country changed? Because,when you did the deal with Musharraf, it seemed like things were starting to clear up, almost be on the United States' side. Now we look at Pakistan, and it looks like a bit of a mess, Wendy.
CHAMBERLIN: Well, thanks, Rick, but I think you're giving me a little bit too much credit for doing the deal with President Musharraf.
But you're certainly right. There is a lot of violence that we're seeing now. And try to put it into perspective. Pakistan was ripped with terrorism long before 2001. Terrorists were trying to influence Pakistan's political environment before the WTO problem.
And why? And I think -- I think the answer is -- and to understand what we ought to do as Americans and how Pakistan is important to us...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
CHAMBERLIN: ... begins with understanding the people of Pakistan, and that our relationship is with them. They have huge needs. They have needs for security, for protection against this kind of terrorism. They have needs for education, for feeling -- for feeling included and participatory in their own government. (CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Well, let me stop you for a moment, because I know that there was a billion-dollar deal where we essentially excused the loans that they had to us and instead gave them money. We cut this deal with Musharraf. Was he the right guy to do this with?
CHAMBERLIN: Well, it's been -- yes, I do. I think he was the right guy. And I think that you can clearly see from the cooperation that we have gotten in our -- in going into Afghanistan.
It's -- he's been a loyal ally, as has the military of Pakistan, over these years. And they continue to be. They are fighting hard. They are losing their own lives. There are hundreds of Pakistani military that have lost their lives.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But do you think we can resist these guys in the north? I just showed the folks at home the area of Waziristan, where there really is a strong anti-U.S., anti-Musharraf movement. Do you believe Musharraf can hold those people off?
CHAMBERLIN: I think it's going to take a great deal of cooperation.
And, no, I think this is going to be a long, hard haul. Those people, obviously, the tribal people, don't feel as if they participate, have an influence into the Pakistani government. And they don't feel as if they're Pakistani.
And to get to that point is going to take some assistance and some diplomacy and some rational thought.
SANCHEZ: Wendy Chamberlin, who knows a thing or two about diplomacy, it's very kind for you to take the time to talk to us today. We appreciate it.
CHAMBERLIN: Thank you, Rick.
SANCHEZ: We're staying on this story, talking to other experts as well.
And this story: Why is a school giving birth control pills to 11-year-old girls, 11-year-old girls, without the parents' consent? What's happening to our country? It's a question we all need to ask.
And then tonight's breaking news: the horrific attack in Karachi and Pakistan. We will continue to bring reaction from there and here in the United States as well.
We will bring it back in just a little bit.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's showtime. And Sharon Jones is taking center stage at the Apollo Theater in New York. But it wasn't that long ago when she worked under a different set of spotlights as a prison guard.
SHARON JONES, MUSICIAN: I was at Rikers. That job was really serious. Once you got inside, it was lockup, and those guys are criminals.
VELSHI: Jones grew up wanting to be a singer. But, in her 20s, the record labels told her she didn't have the right look. So she detoured into other jobs.
Yet, 10 years ago, at the age of 40, she had the right sound for a group of 20-somethings, playing old-school soul music. They were looking for a singer.
JONES: That was the first thing that came into my mind. What do these little young white boys know about funk? And once they started playing, it was, OK, they know about funk.
VELSHI: And so Sharon Jones and the Dap-Kings Then have released three albums, toured around the world, and provided music to big-name artists, like Amy Winehouse. Those songs got them more attention in the United States.
And so, now, Sharon finally has the spotlight, and the crowd seems to find her look just fine.
JONES: To walk on that stage, and when I heard that roar from the crowd, the hairs -- every goose bump, I just got it. It was such a great feeling.
Ali Velshi, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. There's the scenes. It's coming in from Karachi, as we continue to monitor some of these latest pictures, scene of really, well, injured, dying, dead. The numbers are growing. We will continue to monitor it and show you those pictures as we get them in.
Welcome back, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez here in OUT IN THE OPEN with Pakistan, Al Qaeda and terrorism in the news.
As you are seeing in that story in Karachi, our thoughts naturally turn to the 9/11 attacks. Let me bring you back here. I want to show you something because this has something to do with what some of the concerns are for many Americans.
Fifteen of the 19 hijackers as you know were Saudis. Saudis. But Saudi Arabia obviously has very close ties to the United States, close ties to this administration. Need we see more? King Abdullah visited President Bush's Texas ranch back in 2005. Saudi Arabia has a lot of oil and that's significant. But now, there's something else. There's a school springing up in Washington where the area around Washington D.C. that we think is significant, and it may surprise you to learn that we trust the Saudis so much, we let them run a private school outside of Washington. That's it.
What are students at the Islamic Saudi Academy actually reading? The school will not tell us. There's concern that they're using the same kind of textbooks as the ones that are used in Saudi Arabia.
A report cited by the U.S. government says Saudi school books used to contain phrases like "... the hour of judgment will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them."
The Saudi Embassy tells CNN there's no such language in the books here in the United States. A school administrator told CNN this --
"There are no such passages that teach hatred or intolerance towards any other faith or any other people. That is not what we are here for. We are here to teach a values-based education."
Now, that's interesting, but we wanted to check it out ourselves. And in fact, "trust us" is what they're saying.
Joining us now is somebody who knows a little bit about this. He's been following the situation for us for quite some time. He is Ali Al Ahmed. Good enough to join us to bring us up to date on this.
Hey, I understand you've had a chance to look at these textbooks. Tell our viewers what you've found out after looking at some of the specific textbooks from the school. Al Ali?
ALI AL-AHMED, INSTITUTE FOR GULF AFFAIRS: Yes. You know, the government of Saudi Arabia, the mood sometimes that some of the textbooks, they thought they teach in Washington, D.C. but in Saudi Arabia and across the world where there are Saudi schools, the same teachings, the same toxic teachings are still being taught in the textbooks and this message --
SANCHEZ: But did you say - hold on, did you say toxic?
AL-AHMED: Toxic, absolutely. Teaching --
SANCHEZ: Toxic, how?
AL-AHMED: ... Muslims to hate their Christian neighbors and to kill and annihilate the Jewish people and to hate other Muslims and to teach children how to cut hand and feet.
SANCHEZ: Hold on, hold on. Hold on. Are you saying that the school here in Washington, the one that's a Saudi school, is teaching those types of things to students here?
Al-AHMED: Absolutely. In 2004, we did the CNN piece and we showed that. And last year with Freedom House, we did a study, we showed that. And if the Saudis are really honest, they could give you the full textbooks that they teach here, but they have refused government officials.
That's why the State Department is coming to us to get copies of these textbooks, so the Saudis have been always evasive. They have repeatedly lied to the American people and the American government. But also, we have to blame the American government, the Homeland Security, the State Department have not done their job.
You have a foreign government teaching hatred and sabotaging this country in the open. We did reports on it many times.
SANCHEZ: Right.
AL-AHMED: And they have not taken on that responsibility, the Homeland security or State Department. They could have had just a simple call to the Saudi ambassador summoning him to the State Department ...
SANCHEZ: But that's interesting.
AL-AHMED: ... to say because the textbooks. Change the textbooks, but they haven't done that.
SANCHEZ: That's interesting. That's interesting that you're saying that because many of us feel the same way when we peruse the relationship between this administration and the Saudis. It's almost one of beyond respect. It's almost like we're intimidated by them. Am I right?
AL-AHMED: Absolutely. I'm so shocked by the fact that American officials are more Saudi than the Saudis themselves. In my interaction, they are so sensitive to criticism of Saudi Arabian. I said protect your country, your Homeland Security and State Department. Get the Saudi teachings in the textbooks.
Even in America, forget those in Saudi Arabia. In America, 10 miles from the White House, you cannot teach Muslims to hate and kill Jews, for example, and to show them that slavery is OK.
SANCHEZ: It's amazing. It's an amazing story. I'm telling you.
And you know what, we made a decision to bring this OUT IN THE OPEN. We're going to stay with this story and we're going to try and see if we can put enough heat so that they'll come clean and tell us what's actually going to be going on inside that school.
Ali Ahmed, I thank you for being on with us...
AL-AHMED: Thank you for having me.
SANCHEZ: ... and sharing that perspective.
AL-AHMED: Thank you very much. Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Tearing down a Mexican flag flying outside of a Reno restaurant. Next, I talked to a guy who inspired the act.
Also, we're on top of tonight's breaking news. Bloody terror attack in Pakistan. Unbelievable pictures. As we get them in, we'll share them with you. More than a 124 dead, 324 people injured.
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Thanks so much for being with us here on OUT IN THE OPEN every day at 8:00 p.m. Eastern time. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Tonight we examine the demagoguery that is leading many to attack Mexican immigrants in this country because of their frustration with Washington's handling of the immigration crisis. Is it misplaced anger? Should the energy be spent trying to get Washington to do something about this problem? Or Americans just so fed up that they're willing to take on Mexican immigrants illegal or not as their new targets especially since they're being spurred on by radio and TV hosts that know only too well that hate equals big ratings?
Remember this guy, Nevada resident Jim Broussard when he got wind at this restaurant was flying the Mexican flag above the U.S. flag, he got so mad he took matters into his own hands.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM BROUSSARD, VETERAN: I'm a veteran. I'm not going to see this done to my country. If they want to fight us, then they need to be men, and they need to come and fight us. But I want somebody to fight me for this flag. They're got going to get it back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Last week, I had him on as a matter of fact and he told me what happened out there. We also saw the owner of the Mexican. He looked really confused. Look, he goes over now and he picks up the flag and he's just trying to figure out what in the world is going on.
Apparently, he had bought this restaurant and the flag was already there and he was also didn't know there was a certain rule as to how you hang flags. Ignorance, maybe disrespect on his part.
But the guy who got this whole thing going is a local radio talk show host. His name is Bill Manders. So today I asked Bill to come and join me and talk about this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: What were you saying that got this guy so wild up?
BILL MANDERS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST, NEWSTALK 780 KOH: I was talking about the idea of flying the Mexican flag above the American flag and although there is not a law, punishable law against it, of course it goes against every code that we're aware of. And apparently, he as a veteran was listening, and you see the end results.
SANCHEZ: Did you feel bad, though, about his actions? Because, I mean, he looked like he went a little overboard.
MANDERS: You know, Rick. You know the dirty little secret about that I've had hundreds, hundreds of e-mails from across the country, from people, veterans who wanted to do the exact same thing.
SANCHEZ: Really.
MANDERS: So I don't feel badly about it. I mean, I think the guy who has the bar there should feel badly for, you know, trying to rub that in people's faces.
SANCHEZ: He's pleading ignorance. You'll stop that, by the way.
MANDERS: That's what he said. He hasn't returned any of my phone calls. But I understand from Jim Broussard, by the way, who spoke to this guy, that that guy knew exactly what he was doing.
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you a question. Do you think that we're putting the ones too much on just the Mexican immigrants who are coming to this country? Why not talk about the policies that have created this open door that all but has told them to come in?
MANDERS: The one thing, Rick, that I talk a lot on my program is exactly what you just mentioned. I have had congressman and senators on my program, and I have chastised them for not doing something about this problem for the past 25 years. I'm concerned about two things.
One, they are enabling people when they allow them to speak a different language in this country. Television stations, radio stations that speak a different language and it's not just his Hispanics.
SANCHEZ: You know what I find from the studies that I'm now seeing, including one of the most quoted studies done by the University of Princeton and the University of California Irvine, is that there is very little chance that any of these people will be speaking anything but English once they get into the second and third generations.
MANDERS: I can tell you something. I haven't noticed many people going from speaking that language 24/7 and then becoming -- then speaking English.
SANCHEZ: But you know why you see it that way? Because you're only looking at one generation. If you could go into the future, this is what the studies and the people who study this stuff say, you could go into the future...
MANDERS: Well, you know what, Rick.
SANCHEZ: ... 30, 40 years from now, you would see that it's different.
MANDERS: That's great. I go with what's happening right now today and what's happened in the past 25 or 30 years.
SANCHEZ: But then you're only -- but then you're only doing the same thing that the people complained about with the Germans and the Italians and the Irish and everybody else. You're just repeating history.
What I'm afraid we shouldn't be doing is attacking the illegal immigrant who came to this country only because the door swung wide open and after he comes in, we say hey, what are you doing here? We need to get on the guys who let the door be wide open. Don't we, Bill?
MANDERS: Hey, that's fine. I do that all of the time.
SANCHEZ: Good for you. But do you not agree we put the wrong emphasis on this if we try and impersonalize it and then get people incited so that they'll maybe act in a vengeful way? It's the easiest thing in the world to get people angry.
MANDERS: Well, --
SANCHEZ: I can go right now in my community and get my neighbors at the guy next door. Right? Go ahead.
MANDERS: I would agree with you - I would agree with you about that, Rick, except nobody here was trying to incite anybody except for the so-called leaders in our community for nothing more than those who want to incite things.
SANCHEZ: I take you at your word. Yes. I take it your word. It doesn't sound like you were trying to do it. It's a result of perhaps what you said.
MANDERS: Today, it's been about a week and a half, two weeks. What's changed? Nothing, nothing.
SANCHEZ: You're a good man, Bill. I appreciate you coming on and having this discussion. It's a discussion many Americans should be having about this, and I think the ones should be on those guys in Washington who don't seem to want to do as you said anything about it.
My thanks to you once again.
MANDERS: All right, Rick, thank you very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Reading, writing, arithmetic and birth control pills. That's what girls as young as 11 can get at a school in Maine and their parents don't need to sign off on it.
If you're a mom or dad and you're listening, I know you're probably upset about it. So we're looking into it for you.
Also the latest on the crisis in Pakistan. Our key ally in the war on terror. The pictures come in. We'll continue to show them and bring you the latest information.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: It's an amazing story. Tonight, a hot button issue involving our children and birth control. I want you to hear this first.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is the ramifications of what you are considering is mind-boggling to me. I just can't believe we would be this irresponsible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You all better consider it down the line because you all are going to be responsible for that, the devastating effects on young women when this goes through.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would say we're not educating our kids. We're actually avoiding our responsibilities, and that's sad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Well, those are the parents at a school board meeting in Portland, Maine. After it was over, the committee voted seven to two in favor of giving birth control, free birth control pills, I should say to girls as young as 11 if the girls ask.
In the past three years, 17 girls in Portland, 6th, 7th, 8th, have gotten pregnant. The same school has been giving free condoms, by the way, to boys for seven years. An old saying says, "As Maine goes, so goes the nation." Is that the case here?
Joining me now, one of the committee members who voted for the program, Lori Gramlich.
Lori, thanks so much for being with us. Can you try to explain to the American people why any child should ever get birth control pills without their parents directly signing off on it?
LORI GRAMLICH, SCHOOL COMMITTEE MEMBER: Well, let's be perfectly clear here. I know a lot of the lead-in story that you folks had was giving 11-year-old birth control pills like we're handing out candy at the supermarket and that is not at all the case.
SANCHEZ: OK.
GRAMLICH: We have health clinics at a number of our public schools in the city of Portland, two of our high schools and several of our elementary schools as well as our middle school, King Middle School. And as part of that health clinic at our schools, we have services that parents can opt in for. When the first day of school rolls around, they have an enrollment form that they fill out and complete giving their permission for the child to take advantage of health care services.
SANCHEZ: Yes, health care services. Of course, I would sign that. I would want my child, in case there's an emergency, to provide health -- to have a health care services provided for them. I would want them to be able to talk to a counselor. I would want all those things. But the moment there's a decision that's being made to give birth control pills to my daughter, I need to know. I need to sign off on it, and that's the difference, Lori.
GRAMLICH: Well, you can opt out of having your child participate in -- to get services at the clinic.
SANCHEZ: But that's not fair. But then you're telling me -- but then you're telling me --
GRAMLICH: Excuse me, wait, let me finish. Let me finish.
SANCHEZ: OK, go ahead.
GRAMLICH: Let me finish, please.
SANCHEZ: Go ahead.
GRAMLICH: If, if -- thank you. If you have a child at King Middle School, for example, who needs to go to the school nurse because he or she has a headache or is feeling sick in any way, that child will go to the school nurse and receive the care that he or she needs.
If you want your child to be seen by doctors at the health clinic, you have to opt in. You have to give your permission for that child to receive those services.
SANCHEZ: But that doesn't seem fair.
GRAMLICH: You can opt out.
SANCHEZ: But that doesn't seem fair?
GRAMLICH: Fair to whom?
SANCHEZ: You're saying the only way you could see it --
GRAMLICH: Fair to whom?
SANCHEZ: Fair to the parents. You're saying the only way you could see a doctor at the school is if you agree to have your child be given birth control pills. That's what you just said.
GRAMLICH: I'm saying that -- let me give you an example to help clarify it.
SANCHEZ: OK.
GRAMLICH: It's Rich. Is that right?
SANCHEZ: Rick.
GRAMLICH: Let me give you an example, Rick, I'm sorry. I have a 14-year-old daughter who is a freshman at Deering High School, one of our public high schools in town. Her first day of school, we got the enrollment form and when I reviewed the enrollment form, I opted out. And I opted out because I have a doctor for my child. I have -- between she and I, we each have our own eye doctor. We each have our own dentist. We each have our own practitioner and so I did not need to have my child to go into the health clinic to get medical care.
SANCHEZ: I get that. I get that. But the confusing part for us and for our audience is why medical care is equated with birth control bills, but I thank you for the explanation. Lori Gramlich ...
GRAMLICH: That's OK.
SANCHEZ: ... it's very nice to come on and explain that to us. We've got another part of this story, by the way, because this is certainly going to be the type of story, a concern for many parents.
And to get that side of the story, we went to our own Glenn Beck. He's been sounding off on this all week on. Here's Glen and myself.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: The school is saying, we don't want to do this.
GLEN BECK, CNN: No.
SANCHEZ: And we don't think it's a good idea for the kids to do this.
BECK: Right.
SANCHEZ: But if it's to the point where we think they're going to do it, then we want them to be prepared and we want them to be protected.
BECK: Let me tell you something. That's exactly right. That's why I'm going to start giving booze to my kids. My kids -- they're young. They're going to drink anyway. You know that. You know kids, they're going to drink. So why have the kids go stand out in front of a convenience store trying to convince some stranger to buy beer for them. I'll buy it for them. They can drink. Now, if they can just get the school to provide some Tums and some aspirin for them because they are going to have hangovers.
SANCHEZ: Let me bring this argument to you then.
BECK: Yes.
SANCHEZ: What about the idea that boys are given condoms and no one seems to have been complaining about that?
BECK: You can say that condoms -- and this is the kind of way it weaseled in. Condoms are for safety. Condoms are because of disease. Sex can kill you today. You got to have condoms.
SANCHEZ: But there's a delicate balance here, and the delicate balance is I understand the moral issue. I'm a dad. It frightens me to even think about this when it comes to my daughter.
BECK: Yes.
SANCHEZ: On the other hand, I do understand that there is an importance in making sure that an 11-year-old or a 12-year-old doesn't end up pregnant because that would be worse than the moral issue.
BECK: OK. Here's a couple of things, a couple of serious points. First of all, it is against the law for an 11, 12, 13 or below to have sex in Maine, OK.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
BECK: It's on the books, already gone through court, everything else.
SANCHEZ: You're right. Against the law.
BECK: Got it. Against the laws.
SANCHEZ: Right.
BECK: We're teaching our kids to disobey the law.
SANCHEZ: It's a conflict.
BECK: Right.
SANCHEZ: Here's the point. If we could work out a way where the parents are in on it somehow because I think that's the biggest problem here.
BECK: Rick, Rick, I'm with you.
SANCHEZ: If it's against my religion, if it's against my morals, I don't want the school making decisions for my child.
BECK: Here's the second point, more important than the law.
SANCHEZ: All right.
BECK: The second point is you're usurping my responsibility as a parent without any consequences. If I said to you, my kid is going to drink so I'm going to let my kid get drunk at the house because it's that a responsible thing to do as a parent. People would line up in parade routes to get that kid away from me.
SANCHEZ: Here's the point. Let's suppose they have a rule that says from now on, only children whose parents have said it's OK for them to come to the center and get whatever we give them, we'll treat? Would you go along with that?
BECK: That's fantastic.
SANCHEZ: Why? BECK: As soon as you repeal the law that says a child is too young to make that emotionally or intellectually, that's what the courts have said in Maine. As soon as you change that law, in the meantime, don't tell me that you can do it for sex, but you can't do it for alcohol.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
BECK: I mean it makes no sense.
SANCHEZ: It's a conflict.
Glenn Beck, as usual. Great to have you here.
BECK: You bet.
SANCHEZ: Appreciate it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: All right. We're coming back in a moment with more on our hour's breaking news.
The terror bombing in Pakistan, the reaction that's coming here in the United States. Also, we got late breaking news now. Let's flip the picture. You see that?
That was part of a weather system in Pensacola, Florida earlier today. Yes. That's a big tornado that affected even a day care center.
Now, there's a report of another tornado. We'll tell you where it is. We'll be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. Let's go back to getting some information on this breaking story that we've been following in Pakistan.
Associated Press is now saying 126 people are dead. There's some of the pictures, over 300 people have been injured. We've got a live shot set up in midtown New York at a Pakistani restaurant. Many Pakistanis in this community. Let's go ahead and go to that well, if we can now.
This is Ishfaq Cheema. My producers there have talked to you. They told me that you say you're absolutely horrified by today's events. Fill us in. Amplify that for us. Go ahead.
Ishfaq Cheema, are you there?
ISHFAQ CHEEMA, CAB DRIVER: Yes, I'm here.
SANCHEZ: Sorry about that. My producers are telling me that you are absolutely horrified by today's events. What do you mean? CHEEMA: Yes, sir. The scene is a sad day in our life, just a bad day in our life. That so many animal people killed so many people in my country. They are trying to stop our leader. Her name is, you know, Benazir Bhutto. She is the best, the biggest leader in our country.
SANCHEZ: So you support Benazir Bhutto?
CHEEMA: That's right.
SANCHEZ: Do you support her over Musharraf?
CHEEMA: Definitely. Then no, no. I will not - I did not support General Musharraf. I did not support any dictator. We always support democracy, not only me. Eighty percent people in Pakistan just for Benazir Bhutto.
We are so upset. We are so upset. We feel so bad. Did you see any person in the world, the four million people greeting for her? You could not find any person right now in the world who is that much popular.
SANCHEZ: It certainly changed it. It certainly changed in an instant, sir.
ISHFAQ CHEEMA, thanks so much for joining us with your perspective. I've being told by my producers there's another big story we need to bring you up to date on now.
It's Chad Myers following this for us. Apparently, Chad, you've been covering a bunch of tornadoes all day long and now, we're getting more what? There's another one?
CHAD MYERS, METEOROLOGIST: At the end of the LOU DOBBS SHOW, about two hours ago, we had a tornado on the ground near Owensborough, about four miles south. Now, we have another one on the ground right to downtown Owensborough from Segrea (ph). This is Davis County in Kentucky. Owensborough, you are directly in the path of a rotating storm.
Chasers have been chasing the storm now for about an hour with it on the ground. Owensborough need to take cover again. This is the third time we had a tornado warning today and you need to take cover.
Rick, I got 17 different tornado warnings going on right now. The most urgent though is near Owensborough. If you hear the siren, if you have the weather radio on tonight, you need to pay attention. There's a lot of rotation, a lot of tornadoes on the ground at this point.
SANCHEZ: And who better than Chad Myers to follow it for us. Thank you, Chad, as usual. I appreciate it.
Thanks so much. LARRY KING LIVE is next. I'm Rick Sanchez. Thanks so much for being with us on this very busy news day. Hasta manana. Here's Larry. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.voxant.com
