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Out in the Open
Airport Security at Risk?; O.J. Appears in Court
Aired November 08, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: You begin to wonder how one man, O.J. Simpson in this case, can continually to get himself in trouble. It's amazing to see this video that we're going to be showing you in just a little bit, both from inside and from outside the courthouse. This time, it's the armed robbery case in Las Vegas.
As a matter of fact, let's begin with this video of him walking in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The enemy wants to put fear on you, O.J. Don't let them him do it. God is with you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Yes, it's a circus atmosphere once again. He seems to be walking in almost like he's liking the attention once again.
What makes this guy get into these predicaments, other than the fact that perhaps he seems to need it or want it? Now, there's something else I want you to see. This is the first time that the victim in this case takes the stand to talk about what happened to him when he was in a hotel room and Simpson allegedly busted in. Simpson is charged with armed robbery, as you know.
Here now is the victim, Bruce Fromong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Mr. or defendant Simpson came into the room, did he say anything?
BRUCE FROMONG, SPORTS MEMORABILIA DEALER: When he came in, when he first came in, he kind of stopped for just a second and looked at me and I kind of looked at him. And there was a lot of yelling and screaming going on.
And the first thing that I really remember from that was a statement made by Mr. Simpson, saying, "Don't let anybody out of this room."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right, now the cross-examination, because Fromong who, by the way, is a memorabilia dealer, didn't exactly look squeaky clean on the stand himself. This is about whether he knew that the stuff he had in his possession actually belonged to O.J. Simpson or not.
This is take two. Go ahead, Will. Take it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you ever recall saying -- talking about how if O.J. had just asked you, you would have given the stuff back to him?
FROMONG: If he'd have talked with me, and discussed it, we could have come to some arrangement; that's correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And continue on saying and actually say, "I wouldn't even have wanted money for them"?
FROMONG: That is correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn't that because you knew these items were stolen from O.J., and that he was there to get back his stuff?
FROMONG: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: One of the few reporters who actually got a mention during the trial today is Ted Rowlands. We saw you there front and center at one point.
Ted, bring us up to date on what happened today. What were the highlights in the case today that so many Americans were keying in on?
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rick, as chaotic as it may have been outside it was very slow-going inside the courtroom. They're expected to get to eight witnesses in two days. They are only through one. That's Fromong.
Riccio, Thomas Riccio, is now on the stand now, is still on the They're going to late tonight.
But during Fromong's testimony, O.J.'s defense team put him through hours worth of cross-examination. They're putting up a very spirited defense. And basically what they're trying to establish is that O.J. was simply trying to get back his stuff. And they're trying to get Fromong basically to admit that those items belonged to O.J. Simpson.
Whether they successful or not is in the eye of the beholder. The second witness mainly -- probably will be the most important -- is this Thomas Riccio. He's the guy that orchestrated this whole event with O.J. Simpson.
And this is the one thing that did come out today, is that, be clear, O.J. Simpson was involved in organizing this event to get back his whole old stuff. At one point, Riccio said that they were even concocting a plan to possibly videotape the encounter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS RICCIO, RECORDED AUDIO OF SIMPSON'S ALLEGED CRIME: We were going to have cameras set up. O.J. felt that there's been many times over the last few years that people have been disrespecting him, stealing his stuff. He wanted to set a precedent and catch these guys to show the world that and maybe do interviews after we caught these guys.
And maybe I can set him up and sell some interviews and then have this all like a live thing going on. And we talked about it. And then he called me back and said, whoa, whoa, whoa. My lawyer said this is crazy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROWLANDS: Now, Riccio been granted immunity in this case because he has provided that key audiotape to the prosecution, which basically taped not only the event inside that hotel room, but Riccio taped conversations between Simpson and other people, hours and hours of it. It's all in the prosecutor's hand.
That will be key evidence moving forward. What is tough to really discern at this point, because we have only been through one- and-a-half witnesses here, is whether or not the state's case is going to hold up.
I will tell you, you listen to these guys, Rick, everybody has got a deal. They're trying to do this and do this. It's very, very complicated, and bordering on shady. Whether or not it will play to a jury remains to be seen.
SANCHEZ: Ted Rowlands, thanks so much for that report.
And I see you're joined by some friends back there with signs and at least one in a chicken suit that I saw earlier in the day. We will be checking back with you to maybe get that reaction.
Let's bring somebody else in now. With me, Court TV anchor Jami Floyd.
He makes a good point. There is a possibility that that stuff that O.J. was going to get, at least listening to the testimony today, may have actually belonged to O.J. However, that doesn't give a human being a right to go into an apartment, knock down a door with, what, a semiautomatic pistol, right?
JAMI FLOYD, COURT TV ANCHOR: Well, allegedly.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
FLOYD: No, you're right.
Look, I'm entitled to have my stuff, but I'm not entitled to use force or to kidnap you to get it. I woke up this morning and I thought, oh, my goodness, 12 years earlier -- I'm 12 years younger. But, no, no, I'm not. (LAUGHTER)
FLOYD: This is 12 years later and we're going through this again.
SANCHEZ: It's all over again. Wasn't it amazing?
FLOYD: Oh, my God.
SANCHEZ: And when camera got in on O.J. like that and you could look at his eyes and his reaction.
A couple of things. First of all, he seems to like the attention. How does he get himself into these imbroglios all the time?
FLOYD: Well, when he's not sleeping. Did you see him sleeping in court?
SANCHEZ: Yes.
FLOYD: Wake up, O.J.
OK. How does he get in trouble? I think he has got a self- destructive personality. I mean, he beats this murder rap all those years ago, whether you believe the jury did the right thing or not. I personally believe they do.
But then we see him again in the road rage case. He beats that rap.
SANCHEZ: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: His daughter calls police one night and saying, there's something going on with my father.
FLOYD: Lay low, O.J. Lay low.
SANCHEZ: Wouldn't you think?
FLOYD: Wouldn't you think?
SANCHEZ: Yes.
There's something else that I thought was interesting. There's no question in this case that this guy, he did something. And I think the point where the cross got me was when they started asking him about this other guy, and then when he made the point about our own Ted Rowlands.
I think we have that tape.
Ted Rowlands had a conversation with him, and he told Ted Rowlands something that the prosecutor -- or -- pardon me -- O.J.'s attorney jumped on. Here's it is.
All right. Apparently, we don't have the sound.
(CROSSTALK)
FLOYD: But I know where you're going.
SANCHEZ: Yes. Go ahead. Go ahead.
FLOYD: Look, the bottom line is, everybody in this thing is dirty. Everybody.
And, look, I'm one of the few lawyers in America right now -- I'm going to say it on the record -- this thing is never, ever going to get to verdict. It's not getting there, because everybody's dirty.
Now, look, I was a criminal defense attorney. I know that in most cases prosecutors have to deal with dirty witnesses, but this dirty? Riccio has a laundry list rap sheet.
SANCHEZ: But you know what is interesting about O.J. Simpson? And I was watching him here, just like in the other trial.
He's really good at letting his lawyers have minutia that they can use against the witnesses, like...
FLOYD: Yes, that's important.
SANCHEZ: It wasn't a brown knife. It may have been a black knife.
(LAUGHTER)
FLOYD: Minutia is your friend.
SANCHEZ: Exactly, because it tears apart the guy's testimony, right?
FLOYD: Right.
Well, and it unsettles him. And none of these guys are terribly sophisticated. And you have got two of the best criminal defense attorneys in the century up there.
So, yes. No, I think minutia is good when the facts aren't on your side.
(CROSSTALK)
FLOYD: But the real question...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But he still did that. He still did what they're alleging.
But if they can knock down all the circumstances...
(CROSSTALK)
FLOYD: Here's the one thing we don't know, his intent. Did he know the guns were present? Did he really intend to rob these guys? Or was he going in to arrange some sort of a take-back of what he thought was rightfully his?
SANCHEZ: And intent is what can make the difference here.
FLOYD: It will.
SANCHEZ: Jami Floyd, thanks so much.
FLOYD: Lot of fun.
SANCHEZ: Good stuff.
Imagine if people using fake I.D. can get access to planes at one of the busiest airports in the country. Now, consider this. What if the guys that are getting those fake I.D.s are illegal immigrants? It's outrageous. But it's next.
We are going to be back with that in just 60 seconds. Count us down.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
This is an amazing story from Chicago's O'Hare International Airport. Feds bust nearly two dozen illegal immigrants. They say that a temp agency had given them fake I.D.s to work in secure areas of the airport, including the tarmac by the airplanes. So, that means they can actually get access to go on to the planes.
Let's go now to our national correspondent, Keith Oppenheim, who is at O'Hare Airport, has been following the story all day.
What happened? Bring us up to date on how they were able to pull this scheme off, Keith.
KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the name of the temp agency is called Ideal Staffing Solutions, Rick, and it's located near O'Hare.
And according to U.S. immigration officials, Rick, you have two managers, as well as 27 illegal immigrants. And those managers gave deactivated security badges to those potential employee. And then the badges somehow worked and got them into areas that are supposed to be secure.
You are going to hear a little bit more about this now from David Hoffman, who is the inspector general for the city of Chicago, which runs the airport.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID HOFFMAN, CHICAGO INSPECTOR GENERAL: I will note that, in the complaint, it talks about how the Ideal Staffing employees had a box of badges and said to new employees that came in, pick one that looks like you.
That doesn't answer the question about whether other people outside of Ideal Staffing bear any fault or not, but I can tell you that's a question that's being looked into. We're looking into that with ICE. And I know that TSA is looking into that as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
OPPENHEIM: So, implicit in that answer is that he's acknowledging that, between the various agents here, that the -- there was a loophole that was exploited, and they have to fix it.
SANCHEZ: Implicit in that answer seems to be something that's absolutely amazing, Keith. They had old badges from employees who had worked there in the past, and these guys were showing up and lining up and were being told, pick the one that looks like you.
And they were fooling the -- first of all, it's incomprehensible how they can get away with something like this. And who would be responsible for making sure that they don't screw up like this in the future?
OPPENHEIM: Well, pardon some of my acronyms now, Rick, but there are a number of agencies that are involved with security badges.
First of all, ICE is involved with immigration enforcement. The folks behind me that work security, that's the TSA, and they're involved with general security at O'Hare. And you have got the Department of Aviation, which is basically the city of Chicago. And they are in charge of the security badges.
But the vendors also play a part here, and their job is to check on the background of employees and their legal status, but also to destroy deactivated badges after an employee leaves. And what we're hearing now is that this system has broken down, and they are acknowledging that they have to fix it.
SANCHEZ: It's amazing. Every single thing that you just named, it was like, none of them apparently worked.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: This is absolutely incomprehensible.
Keith Oppenheim, excellent report from Chicago's O'Hare.
We will be checking on this story for you.
Our government keeps a list of potential terrorists in order to try and keep them off airplanes, right? We all know that. So, what is onetime presidential candidate John Anderson doing on this list? Even an airline pilot is on this list. Oh, and there's more. I am going to ask him by the way. He's going to join us right here.
Also:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA, SHERIFF: Elected officials call me a Nazi, KKK, demonstrate. I will tell you, the more they do it, the more I am going to arrest the illegals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: The more he's going to arrest the illegals? Who appointed him to go after illegal immigrants? Well, tonight, we go one on one with the man known as the toughest sheriff in America.
And these guys promised to run the country like CEOs run businesses, right? How is that going?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. We got issues and we also have breaking news that is developing now. We're keeping an eye on this story.
These are live pictures you're looking at right now. That's obviously Dianne Feinstein of California. The U.S. Senate is debating whether to confirm Michael Mukasey as the nation's next attorney general.
Mukasey's refusal to say whether the interrogation technique known as water-boarding is torture. That refusal may cost him a lot of Democratic votes. But he's expected to win confirmation somehow anyway. We are going to let you know how the senators are doing when they start voting. We will keep an eye on this throughout this newscast.
Here's another story. Just about seven years ago, the Bush administration came into office promising that they would run the country like CEOs, right, responsible, prudent, conservative administration.
You don't need to be told by me that most economists will tell you that that has not happened, not in the least. When Mr. Bush and company took over, he had a budget surplus. Today, we're now close to $9 trillion dollars in debt to countries like China, and Japan, and Brazil, and the news is not getting any better.
The Fed chief warned Congress today that higher inflation and a weaker economy may be around the corner as well. Think about this, as Americans. The Dow lost nearly 400 points in the last couple of days. Oil is now close to, what, 100, 100 barrels a day. And Americans are worried.
In fact, take a look at this poll, this poll by CNN/Opinion Research Corporation; 82 percent of those questioned now say that the economy is their number-one issue heading into this presidential primary, more important than the war, more important than health care, more important than terrorism.
And that's why we're putting it to task tonight. To put it all into perspective for us in our "Biz Break" tonight, we brought Chris Lahiji. He's the president of LD Micro, a research firm that focuses on the economy.
I guess we start with the cost of living, because there's no question if you go to any grocery store, or if you go to any store right now in the United States -- I'm talking about guys like you and me, just regular people -- we take our kids to the grocery store, and things look like they're way, way up. At the same time, the dollar is going down, down. That's a bad combination, no matter how you look at it, right, Chris?
CHRIS LAHIJI, PRESIDENT, L.D. MICRO: Rick, if you go to any supermarket, the cost of bread, the cost of milk, the cost of butter, the cost of everything is going up.
And I have a joke. Every single week I go into my local Safeway. Every single price is up 10 cents. And that's mostly because of our dollar. And I expect it to get even worse moving forward.
SANCHEZ: We have talked about this on the show. In fact, it's been a recurrent theme. But this administration has spent money like drunken sailors, have they not?
LAHIJI: Absolutely.
If the Bush administration was part of a management team of a Fortune 500 country, I think we would be as close to insolvent as possible. They have done a horrible, horrible and reckless job.
When you spend that much money, and especially money you don't have, other countries have to pick up our debt. And what is happening is that other countries now are like saying, hey, let's wait a second. Maybe the U.S. can't pay it back. So, that's why our dollar is depreciating almost every single week, week in and week out.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: You know what is so amazing about this is, they are Republicans. They are Republicans. They are the ones who preach to everyone who has ever considered themselves conservative and wanted to vote for these guys that you have got to make sure, if nothing else, you're fiscally responsible. But it seems like they haven't been. In fact, they have been more like Democrats in the past than any Republican administration, have they not?
LAHIJI: It's beyond absurd.
Two years ago, when I was talking about the widening between the wealthy and the poor, people would laugh at me. And I said there was going to e massive ramifications after real estate goes down. And that ownership society that they were preaching to everyone does not look that good right now.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
LAHIJI: And, like I said, as our dollar gets worse and worse, things are going to get more and more expensive.
And, if you look at it, 70 percent of this entire country is based off consumption. And Americans out there, they don't even have enough money for the basic necessities, let alone extracurricular activities. And this is problematic, because every single dollar that you're getting now, Rick, is going towards food and oil. That's it. You don't have any more money at the end of the month; 80 percent of this country is living paycheck to paycheck.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Let me tell you something. That's a huge problem for America's middle class. And it's not just fair. And what it indicates is, it would be hard to look at this and not say that things are going to get worse. Do you think we're looking at a recession?
LAHIJI: Yes, absolutely. I think a recession is inevitable, because 80 percent of this country now is living paycheck to paycheck.
And as their wages stay the same and everything goes up, guess what? They're not going to spend as much.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
LAHIJI: So, I think a recession at this point, in 2008, it's going to happen.
SANCHEZ: Chris Lahiji, we thank you so much. We could talk about so many other things and talk about possibly a bright way out, but it doesn't seem to be there right now. My thanks to you, sir, for joining us.
Every month, the government adds 20,000 names to the list of people who need extra screening at airports, just in case that they're terrorists. So, what's the name of former Congressman and presidential candidate John Anderson, what is it doing on this list? All right, we found him and we're going to ask him himself.
If you haven't seen him for a while, he looks great.
Also, look on the side of the road. What is that all about? Yes, that, right there.
We will explain. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
Time to look at some videos. I used to play football, and I have been hit by some really big guys when I played in Minnesota, but I have never been hit by somebody as big -- look at the size of this guy. This is the tallest man in the United States, according to Guinness World Records. They have named him as such.
His name is George Bell. He's a sheriff's deputy from Norfolk, Virginia. How would you like to get picked up by him, 7 feet, 8 inches tall, 7 feet, 8 inches tall? He's two inches taller than the NBA's tallest player, Yao Ming , but he's nine inches shorter than the world's tallest man, who is Leonid Stadnik.
And he's nowhere near the all-time record held by Robert Wadlow. You remember him. He was 8 feet, 11 inches. He died in 1941.
But look at the size of this guy. Boy, I will tell you, there's an attention-getter.
Then we have got this video as well. Let's go to Bangkok, Thailand, now. It's rush hour there and there's a traffic cop in middle of the street dressed like that. And people go by and say, what in the world is he doing? It's a unique way I suppose to entertain the drivers. We thought it was fun. He's dressed up in a big sort of inflatable cop costume. Yes, that's what we call it.
Take a second look at the guy right there. Let's freeze-frame it. Oh, my goodness. Good-looking police officer.
More pics like this, we will have them. You can go to CNN.com/Rick, by the way.
All right. You are going to be shocked now to find out who is on the government's watch list of potential terrorists. As a matter of fact, we have got two of them. One of them ran for president. The other is an airline pilot. And he has a hard time getting on planes.
You are going to see that in exactly -- show them, Jeff. How long? Sixty seconds. Count it down.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And we welcome you back.
We all want to be safe when we fly, right? But six years after 9/11, does anybody really think it's really necessary to have more than three-quarters-of-a-million Americans on the government's terror watch list?
Those are the people who get singled out for extra screening at the some of the airports because their names are similar to suspected or known terrorists.
According to the GAO, this no-fly list has ballooned to more than 755,000 names. And it's going by 20,000 names every single month. Lawmakers in Washington heard testimony today about hassles that list is causing. And they're vowing to try and take action to help some good Americans who are caught up in this thing.
In the meantime, take a look at some of the people on it. All right? Let's look at the wall now. All right. Here you go. You ready? This is Ted Kennedy from Massachusetts. Do we have him up there? All right. Do we have him? Here we go. Let's go over here and show you Ted Kennedy from Massachusetts. We got Representative John Lewis from Georgia.
Now, you recognize that right there? Jeff, show them that picture right there? That's John Anderson. Remember? Ran for president as an independent. Lou Dobbs always talked about independents, doesn't he? John Anderson.
As a matter of fact, if you look at John Anderson now -- What do you say we do that? -- you know what he looks like? He looks almost like John Anderson back then.
You look great, sir.
JOHN ANDERSON, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: We appreciate you taking time to talk to us.
And also with us is an airline pilot, retired Navy and airline pilot Robert Campbell. I mean, this guy has flown planes his whole life, and suddenly he's in a situation where, in some cases, he has to come up with all kinds of reasons to let them go on the plane.
This has got to be so frustrating for you guys. And, by the way, I had no idea that you both of you were terrorists.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: John Anderson, when did you become a terrorist?
ANDERSON: Well, it was several years ago.
(LAUGHTER)
ANDERSON: And I'm still on the list as late as today, when I flew up from Florida to Washington, D.C., and had to budget an extra hour of time, because I knew that, unlike most passengers I couldn't simply go to the kiosk, punch in, get a printed card saying that I was ready to board. I would have to wait and patiently explain who I was and...
SANCHEZ: But wait a minute. Don't you have some congressional papers or something you can show them -- I mean, you have been in Washington all that time -- or...
ANDERSON: Well, you know, as a matter of fact, I showed today when I went through the second line, which is the one before you get to the gate, I showed my congressional card as a former member of Congress to the young man, and he said it has no expiration date.
And I said, well, of course, it hasn't. I haven't expired yet. I'm an unexpired former member of congress.
SANCHEZ: Right. ANDERSON: And it's not going to expire until I do.
SANCHEZ: Captain Campbell, this has got to be really frustrating to you. I mean, you're used to flying planes and they're not letting you on them?
CAPT. ROBERT CAMPBELL, RETIRED AIRLINE PILOT: Oh, yes. The most absurd thing about this whole deal is that I'm authorized by TSA to fly the plane and ride in the cockpit of other major airlines, but to ride in the back as a passenger I'm on the no-fly list.
SANCHEZ: Help us, guys, help us understand what's going on because you'd think two distinguished gentlemen like yourself will be able to explain to them, look, take me off this darn list. I'm tired of this. Why can't they do that?
CAMPBELL: Well, I know, I've talked to everybody under the sun that I could think of, from my congressman down to my union to the chief pilots and everything else. And even TSA recognizes the fact that it's an absurd situation, but I can't find anybody that can get me off the list.
SANCHEZ: That's amazing.
ANDERSON: Well, Rick -- Rick, a couple of years ago, I went up and testified, spent the better part of the morning on Capitol Hill...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
ANDERSON: ... testifying before a congressional sub committee detailing the problem and somebody from TSA was there. I'm sure that a report of the committee hearings were sent to the agency. I think it's an example of some real inefficiency in the bureaucracy.
All of us want to cooperate. Nobody objects, I think, to taking off their shoes and standing patiently in line.
SANCHEZ: Right.
ANDERSON: But I'm worried about a security system that seems to be as inefficient in this regard as this one is.
SANCHEZ: You know what I'm thinking too, you guys both have common names. So just like you, there must be about another thousand guys in the same predicament, right?
ANDERSON: Well, Rick, if...
SANCHEZ: There's got to be other John Andersons out there.
ANDERSON: Rick, it's intergenerational. I have a son, John B. Anderson, Jr. He has a son, John B. Anderson, III, and all three of us are in the same boat. No easy curve site checking for any of them.
SANCHEZ: All right. Unbelievable. Captain, Congressman, my thanks to both of you. And listen, come out of retirement and run for president again. I think we like to see you out there. Thanks a lot, gentlemen.
Well, they call him the toughest sheriff in America. Why is he taking over the federal government's job in arresting illegal immigrants? His explanation and then much more as well. We talk. It's good.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And welcome back. Look, here's what we're going to do now. Let's just talk truth. There's no question that as Americans, we should have law makers who set up a process where we screen the people who are coming into this country and decide who stays and who goes.
But should a sheriff take the law into his own hands and just start kicking people off the streets?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): He's only a sheriff but he acts like a federal agent when it comes to illegal immigrants. And, of course, politically that makes him a hero. But is it right? Is he grandstanding? Is he overreaching?
SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA: Nobody has the guts to take any action. At least my office has taken some type of action.
SANCHEZ: Almost 4,000 U.S. soldiers dead. But how about the tens of thousands more coming home maimed, physically and mentally. And now, a new report about them ending up living on the streets of America. How did we get to this point, and what are the repercussions?
Rage and anger in California. And on the other side of the world, more rage and anger. Tinder boxes, flare-ups. We break it down for you. Use of power, here in the open.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: And I welcome you back. In Phoenix, Arizona, if you're an illegal immigrant and you break the law, you're going to get picked up and you're going to be deported. Fair enough, right?
That's what the mayor of Phoenix and the police chief of Phoenix both say they will continue to do. But the sheriff of Maricopa County that encompasses Phoenix says that's still not enough.
Joe Arpaio describes himself as a deputized federal agent with the single mission of going after illegal immigrants even if they don't break laws. Politically, of course, it makes him a hero because of the anti-immigrant fervor in our country. But is it the right thing to do? Isn't the issue more complex than just rounding them up?
I began my conversation with Sheriff Arpaio about the decisions that he's dead right about. That Washington has left us high and dry on the issue of immigration.
SANCHEZ: Sheriff Arpaio of Maricopa County, thanks so much for being with us, sir. It seems like you've taken upon yourself to do the job and make those decisions. Are you comfortable with that?
ARPAIO: I'm very comfortable. We've locked up thousands. I'm going to keep doing it. Activists they caught, and elected officials caught, call me a Nazi, KKK demonstrate. I'll tell you, the more they do it, the more I'm going to arrest the illegals.
Someone has to do it. They're in this country illegally, and they're in this county illegally. And these chiefs of police say they're not going to enforce it. I think they took an oath of office to enforce all the laws of the land, domestic and foreign.
SANCHEZ: You think these guys are bad people, these people who are, as you say, in the country illegally?
ARPAIO: I don't know if they're bad or not, but there's a law on the books. I'm enforcing it. We have found a lot of violence associated with our investigation. There's a violent act that is being committed.
Most of them come here to work. But you know what? They can't work when they're behind bars, can they? So that's a great deterrent.
SANCHEZ: I guess the question to me, maybe just from my humanitarian standpoint is this. There are people in this country who have come here, they're working hard. They have to pay taxes or else they wouldn't be able to live here. They are sending their kids to school. They are God-fearing. They go to church.
There are many people like that who also are illegal immigrants. Why do you feel the need to go after them?
ARPAIO: My mother and father came here legally from Italy.
SANCHEZ: Let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. When your mother and father came here, right, what did they do? Did they sign papers in Rome and then have sent over to the U.S. embassy before they came over?
ARPAIO: No, I wasn't living back then.
SANCHEZ: So they basically showed up at a port of entry and they were allowed in, right?
ARPAIO: It doesn't matter. It was legal. They do not sneak in. They came here. They opened up grocery stores. They spoke English, and they lived the American dream. They didn't come here just to work to go back home or send money back to their loved ones.
SANCHEZ: You don't think your parents came here because it was a wonderful economic opportunity for them in the United States or your grandparents? ARPAIO: Yes, they did. But they did it legally. They didn't sneak across the borders to come here just to send money back to their loved ones and then go back when they're finished with their jobs here.
SANCHEZ: There is no line like that for the people who have come to the United States which you call illegals. There is no process for them to be able to come through. And, by the way, Mr. Sheriff, let me also tell you something else about these folks.
For the most part, they're recruited by the companies in the United States, and our federal government all but holds the door wide open so they can walk in. So to suddenly castigate them and talk to them or speak to them as if they're illegals, with the emphasis on that word, almost makes it sound like you're a bigot.
ARPAIO: Well, I hope you don't call me that. You know, I have compassion for the people. I've lived in Mexico, in South America, in Turkey, fighting the drug battles.
So I am not a bigot. I have more compassion than most politicians do, who don't even know where Mexico is. But I'm going to tell you another thing you may not like because come January, there is a new law. And we are going to go after the employers that hire the illegals, so they're going to be held responsible.
SANCHEZ: And we should change the law, or we should come up with something that makes it fair for those people and fair for the citizens of these country. An equitable decision as to how we're going to deal with immigration that's fair to us as American citizens and makes sense to these people who are just coming here almost on an open invitation?
Wouldn't you agree it's at least extremely confusing for them?
ARPAIO: Yes. Yes, I agree with you. The government -- 20 years this has been festering, they did nothing. Now, all I want has become a big political issue. The last two, three years, Congress does nothing but talk about it. Nobody has the guts to take any action.
At least my office is taking some type of action because it is a violation of the law today.
SANCHEZ: Well, sir, finally something you and I both agree on. It's been a pleasure talking to you. I certainly appreciate the spirit of debate and conversation. God bless you.
ARPAIO: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Let's take you to Las Vegas now. It's happening right now. O.J. Simpson is leaving the courthouse after a busy day of testimony from, in some cases, the victim who was in the hotel.
Let's see if we can listen in as we go to break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J., how does it feel to be back in the spotlight?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up, back up, back up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. We've been telling you about all that's going on overseas with protests. Well, about here in the good old USA. This is in California. These are students at the University of California, Santa Cruz.
You see those redwoods in the background there. They're like inside of them. They're trying to protect the redwoods because some are going to have to be knocked down for a parking lot they're building. They don't want that to happen, so they tussled with the police department.
The police -- you see right there, whether they're using Mace and they're using billy clubs to fight the students away. Amazing scene there.
If you want more pictures like these, by the way, all you got to do is go to CNN.com/Rick. Larry King is standing by with more of what he's going to have tonight, and he's good enough to be there for us again.
Larry, what you got?
LARRY KING, HOST, LARRY KING LIVE: I like the sheriff in you. That's good too. You two ought to go on the road.
SANCHEZ: Thanks.
KING: Good show tonight. Dr. Phil is with us. We're going to talk about lots of things. We're going to concentrate a lot on last night's show when we had Doug on, and the Doug used the "n" word.
They suspended him from his network. Dr. Phil will be with us to discuss that event. We're also going to talk about the troubles Oprah Winfrey faced at her school in South Africa.
So it's Dr. Phil. The phone calls and e-mails for the hour at the top of the hour. Now back to you, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Thank you, sir. That was an amazing interview there with Doug when he started talking about I've got to change my vocabulary, and it's interesting.
KING: Yes.
SANCHEZ: It's fascinating stuff. We'll look forward. Thanks, man.
Why are so many veterans going from the ranks of heroes to living on the streets? Coming up, don't they deserve better?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We showed you those protests in California. Now let's show you the big protests that it's been going in Pakistan for days now. He's a member of the opposition party, their facing police. This is in (INAUDIBLE), by the way, President Musharraf is under intense pressure to try and back down from his declaration of emergency there, essentially martial law is what it is.
He suspended the country's constitution over the weekend. He started rounding up protesters. Today, he said he's going to hold some parliamentary election but not until February. Also, he has begun lifting the media block out, which, by the way, hasn't worked out.
Well, you've been watching CNN because we've been getting reports out of there. Pakistan has nuclear weapons and is a key U.S. ally against terrorism.
President Bush has urged Musharraf to restore the constitution. More of these "Pics," by the way, at CNN.com/Rick.
Well, they risked their lives for the country. Next, don't they deserve better than just being left homeless? These are our soldiers. We'll be back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Tonight, more Americans than ever before are coming out against the war in Iraq. There's a new CNN opinion research poll out today. It finds 68 percent of those questioned now oppose the war. That's nearly three of every four Americans. That's a record high.
The polls released coincides with the shocking report out tonight from the Homeless Research Institute. It says that more than 25 percent of the people living on the streets of our country are now military veterans, 25 percent. That's a scandal that needs to be addressed by the very same people in this administration who sent our men and women in uniform into harm's way. Most of those, by the way, who never serve themselves and reportedly didn't listen to those who had, when they tried to give them the right information.
We know about the thousands who've been killed already, almost 4,000. But how about the tens of thousands who are returning maimed physically and scarred mentally. This is important information for us.
Shad Meshad is the president and founder of the National Veterans Foundation. One forth of people living on the streets are military veterans. That's an astonishing number to most of us.
SHAD MESHAD, NATIONAL VETERANS FOUNDATION: Absolutely. It's astonishing and it's also going to be an epidemic, I'm afraid the next 10 or 15 years. Right now here in Los Angeles, where we have the largest homeless population in America, we already saw it when you see Iraq and Afghanistan vets trickle into our homeless population.
Our street team which we do a street team run every week are already finding one or two a week out there, and it's already starting to send up the red flag of having --
SANCHEZ: You know, it gets me to thinking about something. Is it because the medicine is so incredibly good that they're able to save these guys, but they come back? They save them from dying but then -- who's going to be there for them the rest of their way, right?
MESHAD: Well, that's absolutely the case. You know, this is really a mind game. I mean, our existence and our functioning is all about how we function and how we are balanced emotionally and psychologically. That's the whole game.
People just don't end up homeless instantly. They come back. It's a process. And I watched it with the Vietnam vets and my generation in the early '70s here in Los Angeles, and we're starting to see it again with this population.
SANCHEZ: Are these guys -- are these guys coming back? I'm trying to think of a state of mind. Are they coming back angry, for example?
MESHAD: Absolutely coming back angry. Like most wars that come back, particularly since Vietnam and Gulf war and now these two wars that we're involved in, they're coming back frustrated, angry, multiple tours. I mean, you look at all the reports coming out of DOD and the VA, high incidence of divorce, suicide, PTSD. Eventually, you know, you're going to have to, you know, face the financial and economic situations that are here when you come back.
SANCHEZ: Geez.
MESHAD: You know, you've lost your structure. You've lost your unit. You're out here in a different world. You're a trained killer, but you do know how to survive and that's one thing you can do on the streets for a while.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MESHAD: We just don't want it to become an epidemic.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: No. We don't.
MESHAD: We don't want them to (INAUDIBLE)
SANCHEZ: Look. We don't want them living on the streets. These people should be somehow taken care of.
MESHAD: Absolutely not.
SANCHEZ: And we know what, Shad, we're going to have you back because we're going to keep an eye on this situation and do whatever we can to see if we can get ourselves, our government, our people, our citizens to try and figure out a way to help these guys.
MESHAD: One thing you can do is give them our toll free number because the homeless call us on, and they call from a pay phone.
SANCHEZ: Go ahead. Shout it out.
MESHAD: 888-777-4443Error! Not a valid filename.or go to our Web site. But whatever, stay with us on this because we want to stop...
SANCHEZ: We will.
MESHAD: We don't want this to happen again like you did in Vietnam.
SANCHEZ: Shad, you're a good man. Thanks for helping us out, and thanks for helping our troops.
MESHAD: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: So when you've -- when you run one of the biggest companies around and then the U.S. economy, what do you do for a third act? Find out next. We're back in 60 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And we welcome you back. This week, Citigroup announced its CEO was resigning due to billions of losses with its mortgage investments. And tonight's "Life After Work," Ali Velshi, with the story of retired treasury secretary who took over as chairman while running another organization with a much different mission.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Bronx, Southeast Washington, D.C., the Mississippi delta -- all stark images of poverty and a sharp contrast to the life of a former U.S. treasury secretary.
But Robert Rubin made one trip to the Bronx that completely changed his perspective.
ROBERT RUBIN, FORMER TREASURY SECRETARY: I was astounded because what I saw in the south Bronx, which in a sense was the arch symbol of Roman decay at one time, was block after block after block after block after block of renovated housing. There was the beginning of new business activity. There was the creation of a real community.
And so, I said, how did this happen? And that's when I heard about LISC.
VELSHI: LISC is the Local Initiative Support Corporation. It's a non-profit organization that helps community groups fund projects to redevelop rundown neighborhoods.
RUBIN: I left treasury in July of 1999, and Michael Renderlist (ph) came to me and said, our chairman is going to step down, we'd like you to be chairman. And that was the first thing, first thing that I did. And the reason I did it was I think that these problems of the inner cities and of the distressed rural areas are a critical issue for our country -- socially, morally, but also very much economically.
VELSHI: Rubin is still active in the for-profit world. He was recently named chairman of the board for financial giant, Citigroup, as they search for a new CEO. But the work with LISC remains important.
RUBIN: I think that the best way to get a sense of how important this is, is to go on a little tour of project sites. You get a sense of really how great these accomplishments have been.
VELSHI: Ali Velshi, CNN New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We're out of time. Here now, LARRY KING LIVE. Hasta manana.
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