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Out in the Open
Interview With Colorado Congressman Tom Tancredo; Colorado Shootings Linked
Aired December 10, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news tonight: It's a double shooting that we're following for you, one at a church with 7,000 people in it. And now we're learning it was the same killer responsible for both shootings.
This sound, by the way, came in just a little while ago. This is the -- the person you're going to be hearing here is the security guard who shot the killer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANNE ASSAM, SHOT CHURCH GUNMAN: I just knew I was not going wait for him to do any further damage. I just knew what I had to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right, let's try and pick you up on some of the video as we get this information now.
The first video we're going to show you is an area just outside of Denver, a building were Christians are trained to become missionaries. That's the first place, apparently, that this killer went. The shooter walks in early Sunday morning and he starts killing people there. Two are dead.
Apparently, we're being told that he couldn't stay there. And that may have been part of his motivation. We're going to be parsing this out for you. Also, preliminary reports that somehow he hated Christians.
You know what I want to do now? To get a geographic sense of what's going on with this, I want to bring you over here to the wall, because -- Will, shake this down so they can see the exact area we're talking about. The area that I just told you where the shooting took place began in Denver. That's that area over there. It's pronounced Arvada, like Nevada.
He goes there. And then he goes 70 miles. Now, this is 12 hours later, when there's another shooting over here in Colorado Springs. Will, if you have got that video, put it up, so the folks at home can see it. This is the second shooting. This is this church I'm telling you about where there were some 7,000 people in the church at the time.
Matthew Murray is apparently the shooter in this case. He shows up with a high-powered rifle, even had some smoke grenades with him. He kills two teenage girls. He critically wounds their father. In all, he unleashes some 40 rounds, according to police on the scene.
Remember, there's some 7,000 people in this church as this is taking place. There's a lot of details in this story, rich with details.
CNN's Sean Callebs is live in Colorado Springs.
This sounds so crazy and so similar to a story we were telling folks about last week. Pick it up for us, Sean. Tell us what happened next.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You're exactly right, Rick.
And apparently this is also somebody who had a very long, ongoing problem. OK. We're standing in front of the New Life Church, which, to give people an idea, this is Ted Haggard's old church. Haggard of course was forced to resign in disgrace about a year ago.
Now, what we know, the suspect, 24-year-old Matthew Murray, pulled in here just about 1:00 Mountain time yesterday. He went to the north entrance in very sinister fashion. He got a smoke grenade. He tossed it out at the front entrance. Now, this is right after the Sunday services. So, this is an area, a worship center, that is just packed with people.
He was apparently trying to drive them down a very long, narrow hallway to the east of the building. Now, after he threw the smoke grenade, he drove around to the side of the building, getting out of the car, armed to the teeth, not only an assault rifle, 1,000 rounds of ammo and two pistols as well.
As soon as he got out of the car, he fired into a car of the Works family, killing the two girls, critically injuring the man. Then he shot another woman in the shoulder. Then he went inside the worship center.
And that is where he was confronted by this security guard, who volunteers her time, and with very much nerves of steel. It is not overstating it, talking to her, to say that it was her faith that helped her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeanne?
(APPLAUSE)
ASSAM: I was given the assignment to end this before it got too -- too much worse. And I just prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide me. I just said, Holy Spirit, be with me. My hands weren't even shaking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: Wow.
Rick, and to give you one other idea, this guy was armed so much, he apparently had ammunition on him like this. She shot him with a .9-millimeter. First, he went down. He was still alive.
She said, drop the weapon, drop the weapon. He didn't. He grabbed a hand grenade, what she thought was a hand grenade. It turned out to be a smoke grenade.
SANCHEZ: Wow.
CALLEBS: At that point, she continued firing. And that's how this all ended. Think about that.
We saw that woman. She's very athletic, very Colorado to the bone. She approached that guy with the assault rifle and ended it before it could have gotten a lot, a lot more bloody.
SANCHEZ: Hey, Sean, I'm wondering, what do you know about the first shooting? Apparently, it was a place where missionaries are trained before they go overseas. Had he been there before. Did he know these people? What's his connection to it?
CALLEBS: Well, authorities are still investigating, but clearly he had been there before.
He was a member of this. It's called YWAM. Youth With a Mission. They go out and do missionary work. He was actually a member five years ago, but apparently was thrown out of the program. And that apparently set him off in a very violent way. Apparently sent all kinds of messages over the period of years, intolerant messages, threatening messages. And it all culminated in a horrific fashion yesterday.
SANCHEZ: Interesting that you would say intolerant messages, because we are getting some word of that as well.
Sean, stick around because we might need to get back to you to kind of flush out more of the details.
We have got some witnesses that we're going to be talking to here now, Ashley Gibbs and her boyfriend, David Harris. They were walking across the parking lot at the New Life Church when the shooting suddenly took place. They're good enough to join us now.
Pick it up for us, if you would, David, maybe you first. Describe the scene. Describe what you saw.
ASHLEY GIBBS, CHURCH SHOOTING WITNESS: We were just walking out to my car. David opened the driver's side for me. I got in. He walked around to the passenger side. And that's when we heard five gunshots. And then David actually got a really good look at the gunman.
SANCHEZ: Did you see him actually go into the building?
GIBBS: We saw him walking in that direction. We didn't physically see him open a door, but it was very obvious that that's where he was headed. SANCHEZ: Did you know that this guy was up to no good, that this guy was going to be doing something like this? Could you tell? What was going on in your head, David?
DAVID HARRIS, CHURCH SHOOTING WITNESS: We heard the gunshots first before I saw the guy. And the truth is, by the time we figured out what was going on, it was pretty obvious.
He had an assault rifle. He had a big backpack on. There was no telling, from where we were, what was in the backpack. But it was obvious that it was a serious situation, and not something that we really wanted to get really close to.
SANCHEZ: So, what did you do? What did you do so you would not be close to it?
HARRIS: The first thing we did, like anybody should do in a situation like that, we tried to call 911. It was obvious that several other people had. The lines were busy.
So, I'm sure there were 100 people that had their cell phones out trying to get hold of emergency crews. And we stayed in the car. We really weren't sure if it was safe to move, to try to get anywhere else at that point. And we were far enough away that we weren't really in any danger of getting hit.
SANCHEZ: Does it surprise you, too, that police are now saying this is the same guy who did the shooting 12 hours earlier, just west of Denver?
GIBBS: It doesn't really surprise me at all. As soon as I heard about a shooting, that's what I thought. I thought they had to be linked. It was just too similar.
SANCHEZ: So, did you guys expect that something -- was there more security at the church because it was expected that this guy could come and do something like this?
HARRIS: Well, the truth is, it's Sunday. And I didn't check the news before I left the house. I didn't hear about the shootings in Arvada until after we got home. So, as far as I was concerned, there was no indication that there was any kind of increased danger or increased threat. So...
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you a question. People at home are always wondering, what would I do in a situation like that?
There's a shooting that breaks out. You're there. There are shots going everywhere. What did you do physically? Did you jump under a car? Did you try and hide? Did you hit the ground? What did you do physically?
GIBBS: We stayed in my car. And, after we tried calling 911, we started praying.
And that, to us, was the biggest and best thing that we could do at the time, was just pray.
SANCHEZ: Amen.
Ashley Gibbs, David Harris, thanks so much for joining us.
We will be checking back with you as we get more information on this.
OK. This is second time in a week that we have heard of somebody just going in and shooting people in a public place like this.
Joining us now is psychologist Alan Lipman. He's the founder and the director of the Center for the Study of Violence.
Very few people are able to put something like this in perspective as well as you do, Alan. That's why we wanted to make sure we had you on the air.
So, let's go over some of the incidentals on this. Apparently, he went to the place where missionaries are trained. And he was rejected there. He was told that maybe he couldn't spend the night.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Do you see that as a triggering mechanism?
DR. ALAN LIPMAN, FOUNDER, CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF VIOLENCE: Well, let's set this in perspective, OK?
SANCHEZ: All right.
LIPMAN: When Matthew Murray went on his journey of rage and revenge to the Arvada mission, to Youth With a Mission, to the end of a party with these young children, he was going on the same journey of rage and revenge that Klebold, Harris, that we saw with Cho, and we saw just last week with Hawkins. This is someone who had been provoked into rage, someone who had been isolated, just like Cho, just like Klebold, just like Harris.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Hold on a minute. Alan, when you say provoked, it makes it sound like he's the victim in this case and somebody did something to this poor guy. That's not what you mean, sit?
LIPMAN: Well, you know, Rick, I'm so glad that you brought up this question.
And if there are people right now who are half-listening to this, as often happens in these incidents that cycle around again and again, turn around and listen. This man is not a victim. He's a murderer. He's a homicidal killer.
SANCHEZ: Right.
LIPMAN: But, if we do not begin to understand the reasons -- and the U.S. Secret Service report that has documented each one of these incidents since 1985 demonstrates the reasons for these incidents -- we will be standing here, just like we stood here after Cho, just like we stood here after Hawkins, saying, I knew it was going happen, boy, and it happened.
This is someone who is suffering from, as in virtually every single case, 93 percent of the cases, a serious untreated mental illness that erupts into rage. And, if we see it, we can stop it. And there are clearly identifiable signs. And, instead of showing the gun strapped over the back and the natural born killer images that we show, the sensationalism, we need to teach the nation the signs before...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Well, before we run out of time with you, help us out. What are the signs that you may have seen here. What do we all need to be on the lookout for, so we don't get in front of some crazy like this?
LIPMAN: Let's take the example of Matthew.
What we do we know about him, from a supposed good family? And he may have come from a good family.
SANCHEZ: Right.
LIPMAN: We know that he was isolated. We know that he was reported as reclusive. We know that he was sending hate mail.
And do you know that this study showed that the number-one indicator of these homicidal acts was not verbal assaults, was not vandalism. It was written material, just like Cho wrote those letters in the Virginia Tech case. This is someone who had dropped out of school at Arapahoe Community College, someone who had dropped out of school after one class at Colorado Christian, angry, isolated, depressed, provoked, resentful, just like we have seen before.
SANCHEZ: And, most importantly maybe to your point, leaving signs that maybe sometimes we're too busy to recognize. But we do so at our own peril.
You're so passionate about this and you make your points very well. And I think there's a message behind it. We're going stay on top of this, Alan. We will get you back. Appreciate it, my friend.
(CROSSTALK)
LIPMAN: Good work, Rick.
SANCHEZ: By the way, we're going be in contact with one of those police officials in Colorado, because, as I'm sure you have been listening to, there's probably some details here that we want to also bring you as more information comes out on this breaking story about police now saying it was the same guy who did two shootings on the same day just about 70 miles away between one venue and the other. OK. There's something else that I need you to weigh in on now, this also having to do with a shooting. You ready? Listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
OPERATOR: Mr. Horn, do not go out the house.
JOE HORN, NEIGHBOR: I'm sorry. This ain't right, buddy.
CALLER: You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with that gun. I don't care what you think. OK? Stay in the house.
HORN: You want to make a bet? I'm going to kill 'em.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: He said he's going kill them. This guy is enraged. He's on the phone and he's watching these two guys -- we now learn illegal aliens burglarizing his neighbor's house. So, he gets so mad, so infuriated, he takes the law into his own hands. It's an amazing drama. I want you to watch it and listen to the entire thing.
We are going to let you hear the entire 911 tape and then tell us whether this guy did the right thing or not. We are going to have the question at CNN.com/Rick.
Stay with us. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Big story we're following. Look at this.
These young women that you're looking at right here, they have put some really embarrassing and sometimes revealing pictures of themselves on the Internet. I mean, this is a phenomenon that is taking place on Facebook.com. Half the time, the women are inebriated or under the influence of something and they don't know the full impact of what they're doing. So, we have catalogued pictures like these and found them.
And we have assigned our medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, to look into this for tonight's "Vital Signs."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dancing drunk, sloppy drunk, falling down drunk, and apparently not embarrassed.
There are nearly 5,000 photos like these on a Facebook group for young women who like to get not just tipsy, but plastered. It's called 30 reasons girls should call it a night.
And here is what is really amazing. A lot of these young women post these photos themselves, often with full names and colleges attached. We decided to blur their faces, since we can't be sure everyone is of legal age. The group has more than 172,000 members from around the globe.
The young women pictured here seem to be celebrating binge- drinking, seemingly enjoying the attention it brings them, but ignoring the very real dangers, alcohol poisoning, date rape, and an increased risk of becoming an alcoholic.
"We know how to get drunk and have a good time" is the caption on this video. "Hammered" is the caption here. "Wow, party, I just got drunk and fell out of a car." Wrapping oneself around a toilet, puking, peeing in a waterfall? Apparently, nothing is too embarrassing.
Curious, I instant-messaged one of the group's moderators, this woman.
"Why would you post a picture of yourself wrapped around a toilet?" I asked her.
"I think it's just something fun to do," she answered. "Everyone has been there at some point. You need to be able the laugh at yourself."
And what about the future? She says she hopes employers will see past these photos. Apparently, a lot of other young women are hoping the same thing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: It's amazing.
I mean, Will, show some of these pictures, because what is interesting about these pictures, as we bring in Elizabeth Cohen now, is, these are pictures that are going have a lasting effect. These are pictures that could end up haunting these women, because they're out for the whole world to see.
Do these women not know that, Elizabeth?
COHEN: They do not get it.
The women that I talked to, they say, I think of this as just something I do with my friends. It's just for our little group.
They don't get it. Intellectually, they get it. I said, these things stay on the Internet forever. But they don't really get it. But, once you tell them, they're like, oh, yes, that's right.
SANCHEZ: Well, you know, all these things are things that can happen. But when you put them all together, it's kind of a dangerous mix, binge drinking, a camera that can take pictures instantly, and the Internet.
COHEN: It is. It's a terrible combination, especially for teenagers. You know what? Young people, teenagers and people in their early 20s, their brains have not developed to the point where they really have terrific judgment. This has been proven in several different scientific studies. So, they're not thinking through, wow, in this instant, I am making a decision which could affect me for the rest of my life.
So, you have a lot of quick decisions being done under very questionable judgment by brains that are not yet fully formed. It's a terrible combination.
SANCHEZ: That's unbelievable. Elizabeth Cohen, thanks so much for bringing us that story.
COHEN: Thanks.
Still, we're going have a couple of things going on. There was that big Univision -- or Univision -- debate. Tom Tancredo is going to join us. And he's going to tell us why he didn't go there.
And then the story we're following out of Houston, it's a shooting that has taken place there. And now there's a controversy. There have even been disturbances. A man shoots two people who are burglarizing his neighbor's house. Some people are saying he did the right thing. He may be charged for it, though. And we have got the exact 911 tape as he explains everything he is doing. You will even hear the gunfire.
Stay with us. We are going to be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: You hear that applause, right? It's the Republican candidates. They got their chance to nail the immigration crisis, to finally figure it out once and for all, in front of a Hispanic audience, no less, tell them right to their faces, no more free rides in this country.
This happened on Univision last night, or Univision television. And who were the guys who were doing this?
First up, Rudy Giuliani. Let's hear him out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And when you say Hispanic, we also should recognize this is a diverse tradition. It's from many different countries. They share these common values, but they're coming here to be Americans, and they're making us better by being here in America. (END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right, he didn't exactly give it to them, right? So, let's listen to Mitt Romney now. He's going to set the record straight. Tough talk, right, Governor?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The Hispanic community, like all other communities in this great nation, need to come together and strengthen America. Because this is the land of the brave and the home of the free. And Hispanics are brave and they are free, as are all of the people of this great nation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Hispanics are brave and they're free. All right.
Huckabee, now, he's been giving them hell in Iowa, talking about those illegal immigrants. Let's see what he says now in Miami.
Governor?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE HUCKABEE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think Hispanics want the same thing everybody wants. They want jobs. They want education. They want to know that they're going to be able to live with freedom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: OK, no tough talk there either. Hmm, I wonder where it's all gone?
Surely Senator John McCain will talk tough. He's been really tough on immigrants in the past on some of these issues -- well, this immigrant anyway.
Let's listen to him here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My vision of America in the future when Hispanics are a very large percentage of our population is that we will be enriched. We will be enriched by their music, their culture, their food, their language, and, most of all, their love of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: OK. Now, finally, Fred Thompson, he's on FOX News all the time. And you know he gives them hell, because that's what they do there, right? So, what's he saying about immigrants on Univision?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) FRED THOMPSON, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The Hispanic community is well-known as having a work ethic that is second to none. They ask for very little and contribute very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Sounds like a love affair in the end, doesn't it? I'm confused, too.
If you're confused, so is this guy.
Joining us now is Congressman Tom Tancredo. He's running for president, but he didn't show up for that debate last night.
All right, I don't know where to start this, whether that thing that we just showed, which I thought you would get a kick out of -- or I guess I will ask you, why didn't you go? Why didn't you show up for this thing?
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R-CO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Actually, I was -- I had more important things to do. I had my grandkids over last night, and I had to fix the train set.
SANCHEZ: But -- oh, shut up. You're running for president and now you're making fun of me on national television.
(CROSSTALK)
TANCREDO: You do the same thing to me, buddy.
SANCHEZ: Now you're being funny.
They gave you an opportunity to go. Why didn't you go? I mean, what is your pitch on this?
TANCREDO: Here is the thing, in all seriousness.
SANCHEZ: Go ahead.
TANCREDO: We should not be doing anything -- anything -- that encourages the bilingualization of this country and the balkanization of the country based on language.
This is the issue of course I have tried I don't know how many times to talk about this with you and with others, and I thought somewhat successfully even with my opponents. It does seem to me that they lost a little bit of their vigor in terms of discussing this issue when they got there last night.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: I'm going give you a chance to talk about that, I swear. You know I always do.
But I guess what I want to know is, what's wrong with somebody broadcasting in Spanish in the United States? TANCREDO: Because this is the United States of America. We speak English. And, if you're going to vote in this election, you're supposed to be -- first of all, if you're here as an immigrant, and becoming a citizen and have become a citizen, you're supposed to, by law, understand English. That's part of becoming a citizen. That's actually part of the law.
SANCHEZ: But what does that have to do with broadcasting?
TANCREDO: So, who are you talking to? Well, who are they talking to?
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But what does that have to do with broadcasting, though? These guys have TV station.
(CROSSTALK)
TANCREDO: Who are they talking to? Who are they talking to?
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Well, if somebody, if you thought somebody could bring you boats -- votes -- pardon me -- and they were talking to you in Swahili, wouldn't you go talk to them?
TANCREDO: No. The whole issue is whether or not we are going to actually do what we should do in this country, and that is encourage the English language, or encourage the separatism that you and other seems to push. You must like this idea.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: I'm not pushing that.
TANCREDO: You are.
SANCHEZ: Why are you putting words in my mouth?
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: No, what I'm telling you is, this thing lasts usually one generation. That's how many people are going watch Univision. And then they're going to speak English, just like me and you, and they will forget about their mother tongue.
TANCREDO: No, they're not. They're not, because we're not encouraging it, because there is Univision, because there is everything that you can think of that encourages people to stay separate in a separate language.
I know that that has been the tradition of the United States. They came. The first generation spoke as -- but, you know, even my grandparents would not allow my parents to speak Italian, would not. Now, I'm not going to tell that was a great idea, maybe, because I wish I could speak two languages. But the whole idea is, they didn't want to be anything but American. This is...
SANCHEZ: Well...
TANCREDO: ... what is happening to us, is that we are looking at a whole...
SANCHEZ: But...
TANCREDO: ... new set of immigrants here who, really, I question whether they do want to be Americans.
SANCHEZ: I love talking to you for this reason. But just let me tell you that there have been countless studies that say these people will assimilate the same way your grandparents did. And we do have this romantic notion of the way all our grandparents would and how different they are from the way now.
But let me go to the question that I know you want to talk about. These guys really do have a different face for each audience they talk to, don't they?
TANCREDO: Yes. Oh, men.
SANCHEZ: And that piece I prepared kind of showed it, didn't it?
TANCREDO: Yes, it did. It's so discouraging in a way. You know, I said earlier that these guys were just pandering when they went and did this when they decided to do it. But this shows how bad they were pandering because not only do you do it, you go and say, well, I'm going to actually participate in a debate in a language other than English, which I think is, of course, as I said, a big, big mistake.
SANCHEZ: Right.
TANCREDO: But when you do it, you also try to nuance all of your answers so as to fit that audience...
SANCHEZ: Right.
TANCREDO: ... as opposed to the audience we had in Iowa or New Hampshire or someplace else. Give me a break. Where is somebody with some guts here? Why don't we talk, have someone who actually say, well, we do. Here I am.
SANCHEZ: You see, at the end of our conversations, you and I always end up agreeing on something. You know, we may disagree all throughout and then we agree.
Hey, Congressman, always good to see you, my friend.
TANCREDO: It's a pleasure.
SANCHEZ: Take care. Tom Tancredo.
TANCREDO: Bye-bye.
SANCHEZ: All right. Up next, outrage in Houston. We're going to bring you the very latest on what's going on there.
Also, you're looking at that right there. That's the Iowa debates. We'll have it covered for you. Of course, the Dems and the GOP. And then this, look at this video.
Two groups are battling it out over a man who took justice into his own hands when he shot and killed two men burglarizing his neighbor's home. We've got the tape. We've got the controversy. We've got people on each side. Stay with us. This gets hot and heavy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Listen to that. What you're watching and hearing right there is a disturbance. It's in a Houston suburb. People going crazy over a shooting that you're about to hear for yourself. I mean, this thing has gotten really tense, and we are now getting information from police that this thing could get worse.
Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. OK, so you're asking yourself, what are these people so mad about? What I'm about to play for you right now is an actual shooting. Let me give you a background so you'd get it, all right?
It's a man. He's watching out his window. And as he's watching his window, what he sees is two men who are burglarizing his neighbor's house. I mean, stealing stuff, jumping out the window. This guy is watching this, he gets really angry. He gets enraged, so he calls 911, you're with me, and then he tells them I'm going get my shotgun and I'm going to go after these guys who are burglarizing my neighbor's house.
He thinks at the time he even says it on the phone that he's protected because there's this new Texas law that allows people to protect their own property. Keep that in mind as you listen now to this dramatic 911 recording. Think about what you would do in a situation like this? Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OPERATOR: Pasadena 911, what is your emergency?
JOE HORN: Uh, burglars breaking into a house next door.
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Joe Horn is watching a burglary at his neighbor's house. It's 2:00 in the afternoon.
HORN: I've got a shotgun. Do you want me to stop them?
OPERATOR: Nope, don't do that. Ain't no property worth shooting someone over. OK? HORN: Hurry up man. Catch these guys, will you because I'm not going to let them go. I'm going to be honest with you. I'm not going to let them go. I'm not going to let them getaway with this (expletive)
OPERATOR: Stay on the phone with me until we get someone run over there. Don't hang up.
HORN: I'm not hanging up, but I'm telling you right now I don't like this kind of stuff. Man, this is ridiculous.
OPERATOR: Yes, sir, it is.
HORN: Broad daylight. I don't know if they're armed or not. I know they've got a crowbar because that's what they broke into the windows with. Man, this is scary. I can't believe this is happening in this neighborhood.
OPERATOR: What?
HORN: This is scary. I can't believe this would happen in this neighborhood.
SANCHEZ: Horn, as you can hear, is getting more agitated, impatient, three minutes into the call.
HORN: I can't see the front. I can go out the front but if I go out the front I'm bringing my shotgun with me. I swear to God. I am not going to let them then get away with this. I can't take a chance on getting killed over this, OK?
OPERATOR: No.
HORN: I'm going to shoot. I'm going to shoot.
OPERATOR: Stay inside the house, and don't go out there, OK? I know you're pissed off and I know what you're feeling, but it's not worth shooting someone over this, OK?
HORN: I don't want to, but I mean, if I go out there, you know, to see what the hell is going on, I mean, what choice am I going to have?
OPERATOR: I know.
HORN: No, I don't want you to go out there. I asked if you could see anything out there.
SANCHEZ: It is now five minutes into the original call.
OPERATOR: Mr. Horn?
HORN: Yes?
OPERATOR: I want you to listen to me carefully, OK?
HORN: Yes.
OPERATOR: I've got officers coming out there. I don't want you to go outside that house. And I don't want you to have that gun in your hand when those officers are poking around over there.
HORN: I understand that. OK. But I have the right to protect myself too, sir.
OPERATOR: Yes, you do.
HORN: And you have to understand that and the laws have been changed in this country since September the 1st and you know it and I know it. I have the right to protect myself. And a shotgun is a legal weapon, it's not an illegal weapon.
SANCHEZ: Now, Horn spots the burglars getting out.
HORN: OK. He's coming out the window right now. I've got to go, buddy. I'm sorry, but he's coming out the window.
OPERATOR: Don't. Don't go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?
HORN: (Expletive). They just stole something. I'm going to go out the window. I'm not going to let them get away with this (expletive) they just stole something. They got a bag of something.
OPERATOR: Mr. Horn, stay in the house.
HORN: I'm doing it.
OPERATOR: Mr. Horn, do not go out of the house.
HORN: I'm sorry. This ain't right buddy.
OPERATOR: You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with the gun.
HORN: You want to make a bet? I'm going to kill them.
OPERATOR: OK. Stay in the house.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Stay in the house. He doesn't stay in the house and this thing gets really ugly. You're about to actually hear the shooting as it happens. I mean, it's clear as a bell. This is an amazing piece of tape, and I want your opinion on it as well. So you can go to CNN.com/Rick and give us that.
