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Out in the Open

Firestorm Continues Over Texas Shooting; Drunk and Proud? Fundamentalism and Children

Aired December 14, 2007 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Really, a couple of dramatic stories that we're going to be following for you tonight.
First of all, take a look at this video. This is a car that has been dangling off the side of a parking garage seven stories above the ground. The only thing preventing it from falling is a couple of cables. It's amazing. Obviously, the question is, do the cables hold or do they snap? Does the man inside get out of alive? Hold on. You are going to see this thing play out in just a little bit.

But, first, an important development in a story that we brought you about a man protecting his property from people that he says were threatening his family.

And this is a newly released 911 tape that you're about to hear for the very first time. Here it is.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone was shot. Go to the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hospital, man.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Yes. This thing is violent. It's profane. It's a Long Island man. He's protecting his family from a group of teenagers who supposedly said that they were there to kill his son. Does that man have a right to protect his family with a gun? And what happens, then, if the gun goes off?

In court today, we should tell you that that man, that father, John White, broke down in tears as he told his side of the story. Now, we have gotten a lot of reaction already on this story throughout the week, since we first aired it, as we have with the story that we have been bringing you out of Houston, Texas, or Pasadena, just below that.

Here's Dan Lothian again with tonight's developments.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): The dramatic 911 calls document the frantic attempt to save 17-year-old Daniel Cialis's life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go to the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hospital, man. LOTHIAN: His buddies rushing him to the hospital in their car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's breathing. He's breathing. He's breathing. He's breathing.

LOTHIAN: The Long Island teen had been shot in the face moments earlier during a confrontation with 53-year-old John White. Cicciaro had showed up at White's house with a group of his friends. They were allegedly using racial slurs and threatening his 20-year-old son, Aaron, over a chat room posting that turned out to be a hoax.

White's lawyers say the shooting was an accident.

FREDERICK BREWINGTON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR JOHN WHITE: What we do know is that this young man, who was fully intoxicated, grabbed, reached for, or smacked the gun, and at that very point, he, unfortunately caused the gun to discharge.

LOTHIAN: The defense says White, who's on trial for second- degree manslaughter, felt threatened, and was defending his family from a -- quote -- "modern-day lynch mob."

They point to the 911 tape that captured one of Cicciaro's friends using a racial slur.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Dano. I will get them for you, Dano.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LOTHIAN: But, during the three-week trial, prosecutors have been poking holes in White's defense, questioning whether he really did feel threatened and whether the shooting was more intentional than accidental.

JAMES CHALIFOUX, SUFFOLK COUNTY ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: The defendant acted recklessly. The evidence will show that. And we believe that, therefore, the jury will also find that.

LOTHIAN: Cicciaro's family has been in court, closely following all the testimony, but for now remaining quiet.

DANIEL CICCIARO, VICTIM'S FATHER: Actually, we're going to wait for the jury to decide. And then we will be glad to talk to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Dan Lothian joins us now.

What is amazing about this case is, apparently, these kids were friends before this incident. But, on that particular day, there was nothing friendly about the way they were behaving, right?

LOTHIAN: You know, that's right. These kids were all friends. Aaron, in fact, used to hang out with the group and they had a car club. And this club, they would take their cars, Mustangs mainly, and go and hang out in supermarket parking lots. Aaron would go along with these young men.

They had all been in fact also at a party that night prior to the shooting. And Aaron was asked to leave. Again, at center of all of this is that chat room posting.

SANCHEZ: OK, yes, exactly. Why, if they were friends, would they show up at his house and say the allegedly unbelievably horrible and threatening things that they said to that man's father, to his family, and even, I understand to his mother, Dan?

LOTHIAN: Again, it all goes back to that posting. It was on MySpace, a chat room posting, and it appeared to have been written by Aaron. It was threatening, according to all the folks involved had this case. It was threatening to rape one of the group's female friends.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Did Aaron have anything to do with that?

LOTHIAN: No. And that is what is so amazing about this case, that, in the end, everyone has admitted that this posting was hoax. So, there was nothing real about this. It was bogus, but then in the end you have this tragedy, where a young man loses his life and two families are shattered.

SANCHEZ: Yes. And a father and seemingly a good man is on trial as a result of this situation. We will follow it and we will see what happens.

Dan, thanks so much for picking it up for us.

Now the other story that people all over the country have been talking about. We were the first to bring you this shooting in Houston where a man named Joe Horn killed two illegal immigrants robbing his neighbor's house. This has caused so much tension in the community.

Hey, Will, let's take the video. Let's just show them what we're talking about when we talk about tension in the community. Look at this. The city council there in Pasadena is now working on a law to outlaw protests, for fear of more violence. This is a white guy who killed two black guys.

He's not charged in this case, unlike the Long Island case, but a grand jury will hear this case, we understand. Now, the difference between this case and the one that we just told you about, that Dan Lothian was telling you about on Long Island, it may come down to the actual law.

You see, in Texas, they have something that is called the castle doctrine. Joining me now is the man behind this law, State Senator Jeff Wentworth, as we continue to show you some of the pictures from the scene.

And, by the way, we are going to let you listen to some of this 911 call, which I think is very explicatory in terms of what we need to hear to understand this.

But, Mr. Wentworth, thanks so much for being with us.

Let's start with the general question. Do you believe, as you know the facts of this case, that it fits the castle doctrine? Will he be protected by the castle doctrine?

JEFF WENTWORTH, TEXAS STATE SENATOR: No, actually, I don't. The castle doctrine is designed by the very words in the law to protect occupied habitations, your house, motor vehicle or place of employment. There are other provisions of the Texas penal code...

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: But hold on. Before you get to the other provisions, this is interesting, because it seemed to me that Mr. Horn -- and I want our viewers at home and you to follow along -- it seemed to me that Mr. Horn had a perception that he would be covered by this law.

In fact, let me not say it. Let me let you hear it for yourself. Here it is.

Cut one, Will.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

OPERATOR: Mr. Horn?

JOE HORN, NEIGHBOR: Yes?

OPERATOR: I want you to listen to me carefully, OK?

HORN: Yes.

OPERATOR: I have got officers coming out there. I don't want you to go outside that house. And I don't want you to have that gun in your hand when those officers are poking around over there.

HORN: I understand that. OK. But I have the right to protect myself too, sir.

OPERATOR: Yes, you do.

HORN: And you have to understand that. And the laws have been changed in this country since September the 1st, and you know it and I know it. I have the right to protect myself. And a shotgun is a legal weapon; it's not an illegal weapon.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SANCHEZ: He says he has a right to protect himself; he's got a legal shotgun. He goes out, uses that shotgun and does blow these two guys away. But he believes that, as of September 1, he was covered.

Is he wrong?

WENTWORTH: Well, he misinterprets the bill that was passed this year. The bill that was passed this year has to do with an occupied house, Your occupied house, your occupied motor vehicle, or your occupied place of business.

So, the castle doctrine, in my judgment, based on the facts as they have been explained to me, doesn't fit the facts in the Joe Horn case in Pasadena.

SANCHEZ: Well, is that because it does not appear in this case that it was actually a threat to his particular property at the outset of this crime?

WENTWORTH: Well, it's because the attack was not -- the intruders were not trying to intrude in his house. They weren't trying to intrude into his motor vehicle or his place of business. It was his neighbor's house, and my understanding is that they had already left that house and this altercation took place out on the yard, out in the lawn.

So, it doesn't apply. The castle doctrine is not appropriate.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: And you would know. You know as much about the castle law as anybody else. You were the one who introduced it.

Let me ask you something else, though. And this comes down to the idea of being threatened. If a man feels or perceive, whether he actually is or not, but if he perceives that he's threatened and he uses armed force as a result, should he, will he, be covered?

Let's listen to his words and let the viewers decide for themselves. This is the moment that he comes back in after the shooting, and he gets back on the phone with the 911 caller and he explains to him what he's done.

This is cut -- this is the original cut four, Will. It's cut two tonight. Play it.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

HORN: Get the law over here quick. I have now, get, one of them's in the front yard over there, he's down, he almost run down the street. I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: That's amazing. That's the very moment after he has pulled trigger tree times: I had no choice. They came in the yard with me, man.

Do you think that this salvages this man from being charged with manslaughter?

WENTWORTH: I don't want to prejudge that matter, but I believe that one reason may that they haven't gone to the grand jury yet, they're still investigating it. They're still accumulating the facts.

Under several sections of the Texas penal code, 9.41, 43 and 42, they all would bear on this. And I think it's a close call.

SANCHEZ: Well, I will tell you one thing.

And, Will, if you have got the pictures of the disturbances that we have been seeing out there, put those up. I want Mr. Wentworth to look at them and I want the viewers to see them themselves, because this is kind of what we're dealing with now. This is not so much a legal case as it is a public case.

And it's one that, for fear of more violence, there have actually been some new laws passed to try and stop these protests. This is the part of the story that we are going to be watching ourselves.

And we thank you, sir. We will be checking back with you as we continue to check back on this story, Jeff Wentworth.

WENTWORTH: You bet.

SANCHEZ: A car dangles from an eight-story parking garage. And the driver is trapped inside. Is he able to get -- look at this. And we're going have that for you in just a little bit.

Also, this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're choking me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nobody's choking you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: We are going to you inside this jail to show you what happens during this unbelievable confrontation. It involved some guards and a prisoner. It's really human drama. And you are going to be able to see this as it happens.

We will be right back in two.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: All right. I want you to look at this unbelievable video that has been coming out of Atlanta, a car dangling from a parking garage. It's seven stories up. It's hanging by steel cables that line the deck's edge. Finally, rescuers had to try and get to him somehow by repelling down from the deck above. Now, let's put -- Will, if you can, let's see if we can put now for me here the original shot. There you go. There's the faraway shot. Now, watch. It's going to zoom in, and, as it zooms in, I want you to see what's actually holding this car up, because it's really amazing to look at. As you look at this thing, the car seems to be staying there only by the sheer force of some of those cables that we were looking at earlier.

They're the cables that were basically made to -- as a barricade. All right, forget about that. Let's not do it. I thought we had a different shot, but I guess we don't have it, then.

Let's bring in the two guys that you are going to see on some of this video.

Joining us now, firefighter Rodney Deese and Captain Greg Shinkle, who rescued these guys.

Gentlemen, thanks so much for being with us. We certainly appreciate it.

RODNEY DEESE, FIREFIGHTER: All righty.

(CROSSTALK)

DEESE: Thanks for having us.

SANCHEZ: All right, let's get right to the pictures, if we possibly can. We are going to put them up, and we're going to hear your voices in the background describing it. All right?

Rodney, I believe that's you. I believe we're going to see a picture now of something right there. That's you that is repelling, right?

DEESE: Yes, sir.

SANCHEZ: What are you doing?

DEESE: It looks like, at that point, it looks like I'm turning around, turning around. But I think that the goal right there is, we have the patient up to the window. And, as you can see, he's attached to my line, but he's a few feet below me

And the reason we did that was for, when I clear the vehicle, they continue to pull me up, and he is just beneath me. And it gives them enough room to pull the patient on to the deck, in which he came from.

SANCHEZ: Well, what is amazing, as we look at this, there's the patient there. But it's not about his condition in this point so much. It's the car itself.

What is holding this car from coming down? And how concerned were you guys that this thing would suddenly fall to the ground seven stories, injuring you and him? DEESE: Right. I believe, at that point, the only thing that was holding the car up were two cables, or, you know, wires. And, however, before we did rappel down the building, we did tie off the vehicle as much as we could.

SANCHEZ: Yes, I see that. You see some of those wires right there, as a matter of fact, that are holding that -- the car. It's just miraculous that that car didn't go all way to the ground, that were you able to go in there, essentially pluck him out.

(CROSSTALK)

DEESE: Exactly.

SANCHEZ: And he was, I'm told -- hey, Captain, wasn't he unconscious while you were trying to take him out of the car at some point?

CAPTAIN GREG SHINKLE, ATLANTA FIRE DEPARTMENT: Yes. He was unconscious the whole time, except when we did maneuver him. And because of the pain that he was enduring, he would come to a little bit and thrash around.

But we had to make sure he didn't thrash too much, because we didn't want that windshield to break that he was leaning against.

SANCHEZ: Was the car teeter-tottering, we like to say?

SHINKLE: It was. It was actually caught by one of the wheels. The wires were wrapped around one of the wheels. And that's what actually caught the car. And then we stabilized it with the cables that we used before we put the rescuers up there to the car.

SANCHEZ: That is absolutely amazing, just to look at this picture and to see the situation that this man is in. It looks like a scene from one of those movies that we see from time to time. And you would think it would take days for them to shoot something like this.

But here, when you're confronted by this situation, how long did it take you, Captain, to come up with a game plan once you got here, because this is, like, not something you see every day, right?

SHINKLE: Right. It isn't.

And we can't plan for every situation that we incur. It took us probably 20 minutes to 30 minutes for us to come up with an idea to get the tow trucks there, to get the cables there, and then to get the rigging for the -- actually, the rescuers to go down, and also the ladders for the other rescuers to come up, so, about 30 minutes.

SANCHEZ: And have you spoken to him, or do you know -- when he came to, what did he say to you? Was he even -- did he know what he had been through?

(CROSSTALK) SHINKLE: No. He never actually regained consciousness. He was taken to the local hospital here in town, and he was placed under arrest. And he's in police custody right now.

SANCHEZ: Because he'd had a couple too many to drink as he was going up the ramp, right, which caused him to lose control of his vehicle?

SHINKLE: Right. That is correct.

SANCHEZ: Captain Greg Shinkle and Rodney Deese, you guys are amazing. And it's always nice to be able to show viewers what you guys do for a living to save people's lives.

Stay with us. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: More tonight on the story that we have been following for you, the humiliating photos that have been posted to a networking Web site that is called Facebook, thousands of photos young women sprawled out after a night of binge drinking.

And now the reaction that has been coming back from our medical correspondent who put the story together. Amazingly, what it points out is that some of these girls don't seem to be embarrassed or even apologetic.

See, I told you about our correspondent moments ago. It's Elizabeth Cohen, who was the first to bring the story OUT IN THE OPEN.

And Elizabeth joins us now.

This is incredible, the story of these girls who essentially weren't very forward-thinking when they decided that they were going to allow themselves to be photographed and these pictures have ended up out there everywhere.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Oh, Rick, that's a nice way of putting it, that they weren't forward-thinking.

You wouldn't believe some of the pictures on this site. We're going to show it to you. But, first, let me explain a little bit about what Facebook is, especially if you're over the age of 30. You might not know.

Facebook is what is called a social networking site. You go in. You start a page, and you make friends. You find other people you want to be friends with on the site, and you form groups. So, you form groups of people who are interested in this hobby or that hobby.

And the hobby for these girls apparently is drinking. They started a site that is called 30 Reasons Why a Girl Should Call It a Night, and they post pictures of themselves just ridiculously drunk, to put it bluntly.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Here's an interesting question that comes to mind as you're giving us this explanation. Are they -- or do we know? Are they really ridiculously drunk or are they just pretending to be ridiculously drunk and having somebody take their picture?

COHEN: You know what? I got to tell you, Rick, if they're pretending, that's a whole lot of pretending.

This is 5,000 photos and several videos of people throwing up in toilets...

SANCHEZ: OK.

COHEN: ... people lying on the street, people with beer bottles in their mouth. There was a couple people with two beer bottles in their mouth. There were people urinating into waterfalls. It's hard to believe they make this stuff up.

SANCHEZ: Well, not to mention the fact that, look, some of this stuff is really provocative and it's embarrassing. And these young ladies are going to grow up one day, and they're going to need a job. And this stuff is going to be out there.

But, even before we get to that, I understand -- or I have been told my some of my staff -- that you have been seeing that there's a lot of feedback on this story since you put it on the air. What's been going on?

COHEN: Oh, yes.

We have actually been amazed at the number of people who have responded to our story. And they're actually getting into fights about it on Facebook.

And so what's happened is that some people think our story was terrific and sort of showed these women for who they are. And then some of these women are saying, no, it's terrible that they did this story on us, showing us drunk, even though we're the ones who posted the pictures of us drunk.

So, let me read a couple of the things that people have posted on the site and some of the fights they have been getting into.

First of all, look at this one. Someone named Danielle P., who apparently does not post photos on this site, says: "You only look like a whore, slut, white trash, tramp, drunk. Is this good? I know I don't want to be proud looking like that. Do you really want to be?"

And then Jasmine, a woman on the site, says: "Worry about your own life. We break social and gender norms. We act like guys and are not ashamed of it."

So, these were pretty typical of things that were posted on the site. And some of the young women on this site have said to us, look, this is what we do. This is how we spend our time. We're not ashamed of it.

SANCHEZ: Elizabeth Cohen, great reporting. Thanks so much for bringing that to our attention.

COHEN: Thanks.

SANCHEZ: Tonight, there's an eye-opening accusation about fundamentalist Christianity in the wake of the Colorado shootings. Is it too extreme? Is it hurting children in this country? Christianity is what they're talking about of the fundamentalist variety. It's a heck of a thing to ask. But we're going to take it head on with a pastor who says, that's just crazy.

And then this: It's a skiing competition that goes horribly wrong. We will bring it to you.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: I want you to read this disturbing post. It's from a Web site from this Colorado killer that we have been telling you about. You are going to be startled by this.

"We were either at church," he writes, "or being brainwashed in Christian home school. When we did have free time, we were either forced to pray, read the Bible, do chores or, well, nothing, since we were not allowed to do anything. Well, I got all fed up with the insanity, hypocrisy, conflicting doctrines, the child abuse, brainwashing, the lies, the gossip, the scandals, the threats and the fear mongering. Me and many others are waking up. We will rise up above and against these abuses against humanity."

Now, this is a kid who's nuts. He's a crazed killer. His name is Matthew Murray. He wrote that. His resentment toward Christianity boiled over last Sunday when he went on a shooting rampage and killed four innocent people at a youth mission and at a church before finally turning the gun on himself, with a little help from a security guard, I should add.

Now, as I talked to different people about this amazing story earlier this week, I was personally stunned by the comments of one particular psychologist. I've never heard anybody say what she said. She reached out to Murray, interestingly enough, and she sympathized with his anger toward religion.

Marlene Winell is joining us again. By the way, she's written a book on this. It's called "Leaving the Fold: A Guide for Former Fundamentalists and Others Leading Their Religion." And then there's Leonard Lovett. He is here. He's going to disagree with her. He's a former pastor who now works with Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches of North America. So get ready for an interesting and, you know, possibly disagreeable but very respectful discussion.

Doctor, I'm going to begin with you. Your assertion seems to be that part of this fundamentalist movement is hurting the people who go to these churches and in particular children? Take the next 40, 45 seconds to make your case.

MARLENE WINELL, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think that there are some teachings in certain kinds of Christianity that are extremely toxic, and they do cause mental health problems, and they cause --

SANCHEZ: Like what?

WINELL: Well, they cause people to have a real difficulty in thinking for themselves because you're really taught not to think. You're not allowed to think. You're not allowed to doubt. You're not allowed to ask questions. People that go to their pastors with just some simple questions get told that this is simple, so they basically have to shut down.

Some people even call it intellectual suicide in order to conform and be a part of this church.

SANCHEZ: Are you --

WINELL: These churches are all about fear and conformity.

SANCHEZ: These churches are about fear and conformity. We get that.

WINELL: That's right.

SANCHEZ: Would you please tell us exactly which churches you're talking about? You're not -- you're not talking about all Christianity, right?

WINELL: No. I'm talking about the literal bible believing fundamentalist-type churches and other authoritarian groups.

SANCHEZ: So the Charismatics, the Pentecostals, those?

WINELL: Yes. And it can also be types of Mormonism or Jehovah Witness and other kinds of groups that can be other religions.

SANCHEZ: OK.

WINELL: But any religion that basically dictates what you have to think and you have to conform to the group or else you can't belong.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: All right. Let's do this.

WINELL: And then there's a lot of threat about what's going to happen to you.

SANCHEZ: We got that, but let's give Leonard Lovett a chance to respond to what he just heard you say. How about it, Pastor?

LEONARD LOVETT, PENTECOSTAL SCHOLAR: Well, first of all I want to -- my prayers go out to the victims and persons who have suffered this particular tragedy. My concern is when the author makes the generalization about fundamentalist churches that she classifies Pentecostals with those groups. I think it's a giant leap from the act of a person to --

SANCHEZ: OK. Hey, Pastor, let's do this. I don't want to talk about this person. This is not about this kid.

LOVETT: OK.

SANCHEZ: This kid was nut case. All right. He had completely gone bonkers, and I think we all understand that. The point she's making is, that it's not him. That the church is doing that to many others who maybe don't act, dealt this way but nonetheless, they're being hurt. That's her point, and how do you respond?

LOVETT: Well, I have a problem because in listening to this particular situation, it seems as though the young man was put out of the church and apparently came back.

SANCHEZ: Pastor, we're not talking about this young man. We're talking about -- she's saying, many people who go to these churches have this happen to them. That your particular brand of Christianity is hurting people rather than helping them. That's what she's saying. How do you respond?

LOVETT: Well, that's a generalization. It's biased. To say that a particular brand of religion -- I must agree that there are some groups that are toxic. What they teach is very toxic.

SANCHEZ: Like who?

LOVETT: I won't specify specific names for reasons, but there are brands of religion that are toxic and authoritarian. But if you generalize and say Pentecostals across the board are authoritarian, I have a problem with that because it generalizes it.

SANCHEZ: All right. Let me give the doctor a chance to respond to you, then. He seems to be saying, too broad a brush, a stroke. Could you be a little more, Doctor, definitive as to what you think the problem is, which churches and what they're doing wrong?

WINELL: Well, I'm not -- I don't know if that's really the angle here that would make the most sense. I think what we have here is a huge learning opportunity, and I think that it's a mistake. For example, New Life is talking about this whole thing as an attack of Satan.

SANCHEZ: Well, is New Life -- let me stop you real quick. Is New Life one of the churches that you're talking about?

WINELL: New Life holds to some of the toxic beliefs that I'm talking about. I have actually have a couple of clients that are from New Life. And --

SANCHEZ: How widespread is this problem that you seem to perceive in this country, do you believe? WINELL: It's huge. We have tens of thousands of walking wounded in this country.

SANCHEZ: Would you compare it to, what? The fundamentalist movements, like among in the Middle East, like the Taliban and stuff like that? Would you go as far as to compare to that?

WINELL: Well, it doesn't take -- it doesn't get as severe in terms of, you know, what people have to wear although, some groups do go that far. The similarity is the ruling that you're not supposed to think for yourself, and that's really dangerous. That's really dangerous to a democracy.

SANCHEZ: You're not against religion or Christianity, are you?

WINELL: I'm not against healthy religion or healthy Christianity or healthy spirituality, and I'm certainly anti-God and neither is the Web site that Matthew Murray was posting on.

SANCHEZ: I got it. It's an amazing discussion. We'll -- you know, we'll continue to look into it, and I'm glad we were trying to get a chance to have both sides here. Former Pastor Leonard Lovett, and, of course, Marlene Winell joins us again. We'll continue to look in. My thanks to both of you.

Coming up, a dangerous situation. The police that are tailing a mad driver. Take a look at some of these pictures. This is a police chase through a Wal-Mart parking lot, but wait until you see what this guy does when police finally do catch up with him.

And then, they actually have to bring in a stretcher after a melee breaks out among politicians. This is nasty. We'll have it for you.

And then, is the U.S. military gambling away our soldiers' sanity and in one case a life? This is an eye-opening investigative report about military casinos. Should they even be there? We're going to be back in two.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: This is a cold scream that follows some tough competition. We're going to tell what you this is all about in a just little bit. Stay with us. We'll have it for you.

But tonight, it's a look at gambling in the military, did you know? And the addiction that something like this can actually cause. This is a fact that doesn't seem to bother, though, the U.S. military. Think about that and why that's important.

You see, the U.S. military is actually making money. Money off of our soldiers, betting on slot machines that have been installed on U.S. military bases overseas, to the tune of $130 million a year in profit. The story's going to get to you. It did to a congressman who's just introduce a bill to ban military casinos because of this. Here's investigative reporter, Drew Griffin. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is named after Carrie Walsh's ex-husband, Aaron, a decorated army helicopter pilot and an addicted gambler who last year finally gave up trying to kick his habit.

CARRIE WALSH, WIDOW: I think he had been doing really well staying away from it. And then, I think that he went and had like a gambling binge and then realized what he had done and decided he wasn't ever going to get better.

GRIFFIN: Aaron Walsh was 34. Shortly after placing his last bet as this casino in Bangor, Maine, in September of last year, Walsh took a gun into a rural park and killed himself. It was the end of a gambling addiction that his wife says began when he enlisted in the army. On posts in Germany, then in Seoul, South Korea, Walsh became addicted to some of the 3,000 casino-style slot machines the military operates on its bases.

Last year, the army took in $130 million from these machines. Walsh says her husband lost tens of thousands of dollars with the military in full knowledge and actually profited from her husband's addiction.

WALSH: The military has this culture of taking care of their own, but it seems like when it comes to this, they just, you know, they profited from his addiction and then threw him away.

GRIFFIN: The Air Force and Navy have their own gambling programs, the profits used to pay for morale, welfare and recreation programs, like bowling alleys and dances. But now a Tennessee Congressman says enough is enough. Congressman Lincoln Davis, this week, introduced the "Warrant Officer Aaron Walsh Stop DOD Sponsored Gambling Act," a long name with a single point. The U.S. military shouldn't encourage soldiers to gamble, and certainly shouldn't be in the gambling business.

"If American men and women are willing to serve our country overseas, we should not be dependent on them to pay for recreational activities they deserve," Davis said in a written statement. "The risks are simply too high and too many to ask that of our soldiers."

University of Illinois business professor John Kindt couldn't agree more. He says studies show members of the military, mainly because of their youth and passion for adventure, are more prone to gambling addiction than others. And he says poorly paid soldiers supporting young families should not have to support recreation programs by losing money.

JOHN KINDT, BUSINESS PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS: It's all about the buck. And in our military, it should be about service to our country. It shouldn't be about exploiting our service personnel and putting their families and their children at risk.

(END VIDEOTAPE) GRIFFIN: Rick, this bill was filed on Wednesday afternoon. We've been trying to get a comment from the Pentagon about this bill that would ban their slot machines on military posts overseas. So far no comment, but when we first did this story earlier this year, Rick, we did get a statement from the undersecretary of defense about military slots. This is what she said.

They provide a controlled alternative to unmonitored host nation gambling venues. Then the under secretary went on to say, they pay better than most slot machines.

SANCHEZ: So they're making money off this?

GRIFFIN: Oh, yes.

SANCHEZ: This controlled alternative to unmonitored host nation gambling venues?

GRIFFIN: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: What the hell that means?

GRIFFIN: The whole idea is to make money off of it. But critics say, look, make money off of whom? You're making money off of U.S. soldiers -- trapped, lonely and bored out of their minds on military bases or posts overseas. And by the way, soldiers don't get paid a lot of money.

SANCHEZ: I was just going to say and seriously underpaid. You read my mind. Drew Griffin, as usual, fine reporting, man. Appreciate it.

GRIFFIN: Thanks, Rick.

SANCHEZ: Christmas starts early tonight on "LARRY KING LIVE." Just wait until you hear and see who's on tonight.

LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": We have a great musical show tonight to kick off the holidays. You'll see performances from Josh Groban, Toby Keith, Randy Travis, Chris Botti, Neo (ph) and more. It's a fun, festive hour you will not want to miss. All at the top of the hour on "LARRY KING LIVE."

SANCHEZ: It's got to be fun. He's wearing his yellow suspenders. That's the first dead give away.

And this --

No, this isn't the WWWF or legislative hall. They actually had to call a paramedic after all this was over. I mean, I'm serious. This got so ugly. They had stretchers coming in to take some of these guys out. What in the world do we have somebody act like this? We're going to have it for you. We've got video just before we went on the air. And then, a wild and dangerous chase for police. Look at this car. Ready? Look how high up it gets off the ground. But do the cops finally catch up with the fat guy and what does he do? Oh, this is nuts. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Tonight is an ultimatum from the Department of Homeland Security in a tiny Texas border town. It says, give me your land -- give me your land or else. I mean, this is like an eminent domain issue, something all Americans should be considering.

You see the residents of Granjeno live, right along the -- pardon me, I misspoke. They live right along the U.S./Mexico border smack dab where our government wants to build part of the border fence to keep out illegal immigrants. Here's the problem, though.

The residents, just like their land, have to be in the way, and many have ignored government orders to let surveyors on their property, so the feds are now sending letters and threatening court action. We got a hold of a copy of one of those. Here's Susan Roesgen with a story of how this little Granjeno town in Texas is trying to take on the big fence.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REY ANZALDUA, RESIDENT: All this land across the street, on both sides of the street, used to belong to my dad.

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Rey Anzaldua has the family pride that comes from three centuries of history. Nearly everyone in Granjeno, Texas, lives on land given to their ancestors by the king of Spain in the 1700s. But they believe they're about to lose most of that land to the U.S. government and it's billion dollar border fence.

ROESGEN (on camera): To give you some idea of the issue here, the Rio Grande River is the border between the U.S. and Mexico, and it's about a mile that way. But the town of Granjeno is about a quarter of a mile that way, and the people who live there want to know why the fence, the border fence, has to be so far from the river and so close to their backyards.

GLORIA GARZA, RESIDENT: Terrorist didn't come in through my backyard. They didn't come in through the river.

ROESGEN: Gloria Garza and her brother Vicente are standing right where they say the fence will go, through the middle of Gloria's backyard. Where I'm standing would be on the other side of the fence, the no-man's-land.

But it's even worse for Gloria's uncle, Daniel Garza. He says he's been told by surveyors that the fence will run through his front yard. Meaning, the federal government would tear down his house.

DANIEL GARZA, RESIDENT: And I don't really want to move from here because this is my -- where I was born and I love my place, and I just want to keep it.

ROESGEN: According to the border patrol, the fence has to go on private property and can't be closer to the river because that's a flood plain. But the border patrol also says preliminary maps of where the fence would go are just that. Preliminary.

With fewer than 500 residents and a per capita income of less than $10,000 a year, this small town is trying to find a way to fight the mammoth Department of Homeland Security.

Yolanda Anzaldua says it can be done with the same Spanish law that gave her ancestors land in Granjeno 300 years ago.

YOLANDA ANZALDUA, RESIDENT: I am going to try to apply the law that pertains to this area. Under international law, this land is protected.

ROESGEN: Yolanda believes the ancient land grants are still legal and should keep the federal government off the property. But it's more likely the law of eminent domain would let the feds and the fence come in.

REY ANZALDUA, PROPERTY OWNER: I would think it probably would be a legal fight. But I think in the back of our mind, we would have to consider civil disobedience if we have to.

ROESGEN: A town struggling to protect the Hispanic heritage that has survived here for generations. Susan Roesgen, CNN, Granjeno, Texas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: We have been looking at some of the most intense video that's been coming in this afternoon. Let me take you to this one first. This is an unbelievable police chase. It's taking place in Florida. This is in Altamonte Springs. Let's go ahead and take a look at this.

We're going to roll this back for you a couple of times because at the very first you look at this, you see that it's just a van that's out of control and is being chases by a police officer. Then it comes to an end when police finally catch up to him. And now you're going to hear what police say to him when he finally gets in there. And this is kind of interesting if you watch the movie, the show "Cops." Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bad boy, bad boys, what you going to do?

Bad boy. Bad boy. What you going to do?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: That's him. That's the guy that police are trying to arrest. He's inside that van. Let's watch it again. Let's look. How high this thing gets off the ground before finally police are able to get in there and make the arrest on this guy. This is all from -- by the way, that is actually a song, I'm told. It's got a real trademark. "Bad boys." But its' more fun than watching something like this ask. There you go. Police actually making the bust and going through it.

Now, I'm going to bring you to another one now. Let's go up here, Jeff (ph), if you possibly can. Look at this video. This is the one that we've been telling you about that has taken place. This is in South Korea.

The politicians who are essentially beating each other up. Today, it's where members of the country's parliament got into this unbelievable brawl. They actually had to bring in a stretcher to get some of these people out. Listen to some of that sound.

They had to go to the podium and take the guy out. We'll continue to follow that one for you. And I've got another one for you, by the way. Jeff, back up if you possibly can. Listen to this. This is the one where you've been hearing the screams from in the past. Here it is. (Screaming)

Apparently, it has lots of people come in and examine. And that's why one of the things that's been out there -- and she was in a lot of pain. We're going to continue to check on her as well. This is the Women's World Cup.

A lot more news coming your way in just a little bit. The very latest on what we've been following today, and we'll have it right here. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back. New developments in that sort of love triangle involving NASA astronauts that made headlines earlier in the year. Here's CNN's Carol Costello with a report she filed for us.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): NASA has now released more than 200 pages of e-mails between former astronauts Lisa Nowak, Bill Oefelien, and Air Force Captain Colleen Shipman, who were allegedly involved in a love triangle. This one dated January 3rd, 2007.

It was sent via office e-mail by Bill Oefelein shortly after he returned from a space mission. It's to Lisa Nowak. It's titled "Halfway Happy Hour Thursday." Oefelein asked Nowak, going to this? She responds one minute later. Only if you are.

There is little sign of what was to come just a month later when Lisa who authored that e-mail turned into this Lisa Nowak, an alleged stalker, one who police say drove from Houston to Orlando to attack Oefelein's girlfriend, Air Force Captain Colleen Shipman.

LISA NOWAK, FORMER ASTRONAUT: I know that it must have been also very hard for Colleen Shipman, and I would like her to know how very sorry I am about having frightened her in any way. And about this subsequent public harassment that has besieged all of us.

COSTELLO: Hard? Police also found a pellet gun, a knife and soiled diapers in Nowak's car. But in the e-mails released by NASA, the relationship between Nowak and Oefelein doesn't seem obsessive at all. This from February of 2004.

Oefelein writes to Nowak of an upcoming Rodeo, "might be nice after a long week away. If it works, sign us both up." The married Nowak responds, "I signed us up for that one."

But by 2007, Oefelein is e-mailing another woman, Air Force Captain Colleen Shipman, and his shout-outs to shipman are decidably flirty. On January 29th, 2007, a few weeks before the alleged attack, Oefelein addresses Shipman by typing, hey, cutie -- he signed off with, love you.

Days later he e-mailed Shipman again about an upcoming trip to Alaska telling her, they want your size for arctic gear. He adds, I think I can figure that out. Size sexy and athletic. And the postscript -- due to noise requirements I have asked Gina to get us a room. We need some privacy.

COSTELLO (on camera): Keep in mind, NASA only released some of the e-mails between the three, and that prompted Nowak's lawyer to say it presents a deceptive relationship between the trio. Nowak will be in court in April. Carol Costello, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: And that's it for tonight. "LARRY KING LIVE" is coming up next. By the way, did you know -- no. We'll save that. Well, let's save this for Monday. Let's just say good night. Thanks for being with us. Everybody have a great evening.

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