Return to Transcripts main page

One World with Zain Asher

Israelis Celebrate Flag Day; Russia-backed Officials Say intervention by Unauthorized Persons Caused Crimea Freight Train Derailment; World Leaders Gather in Japan for G7 Summit; Montana Bans TikTok Due to Privacy Concerns; Ambassador Brigety Apologizes for Weapons Loading Allegation. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired May 18, 2023 - 12:00:00   ET




CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, CNN HOST: Hello, I'm Christina Macfarlane live from London, and this is One World. Now for many Israelis, it's a day of

celebration, but for Palestinians, it's viewed as a provocation. The situation is getting tense as thousands of Israelis, many far-right

nationalists, march through the Muslim quarter of Jerusalem's Old City. They're celebrating Flag Day, an annual event marking Israel's capture of

East Jerusalem in the 1967 war. In the past hour, journalists in the press area near Damascus Gate were pelted reportedly with rocks and other

objects. And some teenage marchers shout as racist taunts at journalists wearing hijabs.

Well, we have our reporters on the ground there. CNN's Ben Wedeman is in the Old City in Jerusalem. But let's begin with our Hadas Gold, who's near

the Damascus Gate. Clearly, Hadas, this has been a tense situation developing in the last couple of hours. Tell us what you've been seeing,

what the atmosphere is there right now.

HADAS GOLD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Christina, things are calmer now than they were about an hour ago. We were in the cordoned off press area for

journalists to film and witness this annual march and things were already getting a little bit more active, especially with young teenage boy groups.

This is the route for men to take. The women take a different route that takes them through the Jewish quarter of the Old City. The marchers go

through this gate, Damascus Gate, which is the main entrance to the Muslim quarter, and they are all going to meet up and end at the Western Wall


And already, things were getting tense. We were hearing teenagers chanting things about getting revenge on Palestine and erasing their name. But then

things started to escalate. They were coming up to the press there. I was standing right next to several other reporters, including several female

reporters who were wearing hijabs right next to us, and they started taunting those reporters directly, saying things like may your village


And that's when we started getting some violence. Things started to be thrown at us -- rocks, bottles, cans. I myself saw journalists being

injured in their -- on the head by things being thrown. We actually, at one point, had to pull back a little bit for our own safety. It took some time

for police to take control of the situation.

There are thousands of police out to try and keep this route safe but in recent years, this march, which is meant to celebrate for Israelis when

Israel took control of East Jerusalem, when Israelis were able to go to the holy sites of the Old City. In recent years, it's become essentially a

right-wing nationalist rally and especially when now in -- this is the most far-right government in Israeli history.

National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir actually was just here just behind me in the crowd where people were chanting things like, oh look, the

prime minister is here. These people adore these types of ministers and they feel emboldened now that they are in government. Now, this March was

the pretext for that 2021 war. It was during this march just in the 6 p.m. hour when militants in Gaza fired rockets towards Jerusalem and it caused

the march to actually be canceled. Well, that set off that 11-day war with Hamas militants in Gaza.

Now, there is less of an expectation of rockets being fired tonight, but the feeling on the ground is still very tense. It's very violent and it

boasts towards Arabs and towards journalists, as well. And so, there is fear actually that the violence will actually be on the ground and not

necessarily coming from the sky. Christina.

MACFARLANE: Yeah, and Hadas, to that point, this coming, you know, this that has been a flashpoint for tensions in the past, you mentioned the 2021

sparking that 11-day war. This is obviously at a point of heightened tensions just days after we have seen that ceasefire reach between Islamic

Jihad and Israel. Has there been any major threat of violence today despite these tensions you've been pointing out?

GOLD: Well, yesterday, even before this march took place, some of the militant groups in Gaza were issuing statements and other sorts of

statements saying, warning Israel that if they crossed red lines during this march, red line most likely being if these marchers were somehow able

to get onto the Temple Mount, which is known to Muslims as the Al Aqsa Mosque compound, which Israeli police say they will not go up, that that

would be the red line for them to act.

Now, they only said that there would be some sort of response. There was a poster issued that looked like rockets were being fired towards Jerusalem.


But again, there is very little expectation from the security establishment in Israel of rockets actually being fired, especially because it was only a

few days ago, as you mentioned, that that ceasefire was reached. And so, there is still an expectation or a fear of things getting violent scuffles

on the ground, potentially things happening in the West Bank in response to this march. But the expectation of us seeing rockets flying towards

Jerusalem is lower than what we've seen in previous years.

MACFARLANE: All right, Hadas Gold there, live for us. Thanks very much, Hadas. I just want to turn to our Ben Wedeman, who has been in the Old City

for most of today, watching events unfold there. Can Ben Wedeman join us?


MACFARLANE: You're here, Ben. Good. Ben, can you just build a little bit on what we've been hearing from Hadas there and give us some context here to

the history and the symbolism of this event, particularly as it pertains to the route that you have been seeing with people taking this Flag March,


WEDEMAN: Okay, basically the history is this is the 56th anniversary, according to the Hebrew calendar, it's the 15th of Ayyar that marks the

reunification of the city of Jerusalem back in 1967 following the Six-Day War, the reunification and for the Palestinians, the beginning of the

occupation. And what we've been seeing is thousands of people coming down from the hill up there towards Damascus Gate. These are mostly young men,

some of them teenagers, some of them younger. Many of them from the occupied West Bank, religious Zionists. This is really sort of many of

them, some of the most extreme elements in Israeli society.

We spoke to some of them, and they basically see this conflict in biblical terms, that they say that God gave the Jews this land and everybody else

who lives there, in their opinion, is just going to have to put up with it. And what we've seen is, inside the Old City that the Palestinians are being

forced to put up with it because there have been barriers erected within the Old City along all the alleyways to stop any sort of interaction

between Palestinian residents of the Old City and these thousands of marchers.

Now, officially, there was no order for merchants to close their shops in the Muslim quarter of the Old City. But we did see, at certain point,

police basically forcing them to close. We saw scuffles between Palestinian youth and some of the young Israeli marchers. We experienced scuffles with

the police as well, who didn't seem to think we should be doing our job covering this event but it's been tense by and large, not major violence,

not major clashes, but still some hours to go before people come home so, we shall see what happens. Christina.

MACFARLANE: Yeah, still some hours to go, Ben. And I know that you and Hadas Gold there will be continuing to follow this for us. Ben Wedeman,

Hadas Gold, live from Jerusalem. Thank you both. Now, for the first time in months, Ukrainian forces may be on the offensive in the longest, most

brutal battle of Russia's 15-month war. Kyiv continues to claim its troops are gaining ground around Bakhmut amid heavy enemy fire. These new images

underscore just how ruthless the fight is.

Meantime, a freight train carrying grain derailed in Russian-annexed Crimea in what Russian-installed officials are calling a deliberate act. Services

have been temporarily suspended between Sevastopol and Simferopol. CNN's Sam Kiley joining me now live from southeastern Ukraine. And Sam, on this

freight train, we've seen attacks like this behind Russia's front lines before and responses from Ukraine like this before. So, what more are you

learning about what actually happened here?

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know, Christina, is that this train between Simferopol and Sevastopol was

derailed. Some carriages went off the line. It's a very important logistics link between the two cities, feeding the frontline troops, fuel, personnel,

ammunition and food. Now, clearly, and of course, it travels in both directions.

Now, the Ukrainians have said that as ever, they've done a rather tongue- in-cheek response to this, which is usually how they respond to allegations that their people have conducted behind the frontlines operations. They

said in the past that the destruction of aircraft was due to a smoking accident from a sentry at an airport in the Crimean Peninsula.


Now, they're saying it's just wear and tear. They don't mean it. Clearly, from the Russian perspective there was malice of forethought. This was a

partisan act or a special forces act by Ukrainians. I'm sure that's what the Russians will be believing and I think it should be seen as part of the

ongoing effort to undermine the capability of the Russians and maintain their logistics chain as the fighting continues

in Bakhmut. Christina.

MACFARLANE: Sam Kiley there, live from eastern Ukraine. Thanks very much, Sam. Well, Russia's war in Ukraine is one of two major security concerns,

topping the agenda when global allies gather for the G7 summit in Hiroshima, Japan in a matter of hours. The U.S. President is already there.

He met with Japanese Prime Minister Fumio Kishida earlier and emphasized close relations between Tokyo and Washington amid the threat posed by

China's growing military and economic influence. He also acknowledged the challenges the world leaders now face.


JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: As you said back in January when you were at the White House, I think the quote is we face the most one of the most complex

environments in recent history, security environments, and I couldn't agree with you more. But I'm proud that the United States and Japan are facing it


MACFARLANE: Shortly after arriving, the President received an enthusiastic greeting from U.S. troops stationed at the Marine Corps Air Station in

Iwakuni. Turning now to Colombia, where a government official says she's confident, four children have been found alive 17 days after their plane

crashed in the Amazon jungle. The children, aged thirteen, nine, four, and a baby who's not even yet one year old, were traveling in a small aircraft

that came down in the south of the country. But the news has still not yet been confirmed.

Let's speak to journalist Stefano Pozzebon, who's in Bogota. Stefano, I mean, this is an incredible story of survival, but also one of tragedy,

given the loss of life of, I believe it's three adults. What more can you tell us about the whereabouts of these children, whether or not they've

actually been recovered?

STEFANO POZZEBON, JOURNALIST: Well, yes, Christina, it's been a frantic morning here in Colombia with pretty much half of the country looking for

these four children after the President announced in a tweet that they were found, that they had been located. And now, we are understanding that it's

not been absolutely confirmed yet. We know from the airline company that was providing the flight that crashed on the 1st of May that there a small

single engine Cessna 206.

So, it was flying with these four children, four minors and three adults and crashed pretty much halfway in their flight from the Caqueta River

towards the north in San Jose del Guaviare. Christina, this is one of the most remote and sparsely populated regions in Colombia and in Latin

America. It's a region that is deep rainforest where communications is really tough and where you either move around with a plane or with a boat

in the river. And right now we are at the height of the rainy season down there, so any sort of communications, transportation, movement is very,

very difficult.

We have been given, however, some images, Christina, of the search and rescue operations that the Colombian Air Force and the Colombian military

forces have set up to try to get locate and hopefully rescue these children. I want to point out that the Colombian soldiers are here, you

probably see them on the screen. They're playing a message from the grandmother of these children who speaks to them and essentially trying to

calm them down and also make contact with them.

We can only imagine what's their mental situation, what are their feelings now after having survived if they truly have and if the story has a

positive outcome after staying in the jungle for 17 days, let's not forget the plane crashed on May 1st and now 17 days after we may be on the brink

of a solution, hopefully a positive one, Christina.

MACFARLANE: We really, really hope and pray that this is gonna be a positive solution, that we are gonna see those children emerging from the

jungle. Stefano Pozzebon live for us, bring us up to date there. Thanks very much. Okay, coming up, the tremendous hardships facing people in

Central Somalia after floodwaters inundate one city. Then a crisis on top of a catastrophe.


The United Nations makes an urgent plea for humanitarian aid in Sudan, its largest ever for the war-torn African nation. And we're getting new details

about Prince Harry and Meghan's chase with the paparazzi, all here from an eyewitness, a bit later.


MACFARLANE: You're looking at new drone images from northern Italy after widespread flooding in the region. Eleven people have died and thousands

are now homeless. More than 20 rivers burst their banks causing landslides and floods. There is further threat of flooding on Friday, as well.

And our city looks like an ocean. That's how people in Belfast Wayne are describing their surroundings after floodwaters submerged parts of central

Somalia. About a quarter of a million people have had to flee their homes there. Meteorologist Derek Van Dam has more now on the flooding and a look

at the forecast there in the days ahead.

DEREK VAN DAM, CNN METEOROLOGIST: That's right, Christina. These are absolutely devastating images coming out of Central Somalia as the Shabelle

River overflowed its banks. This is in North Central Somalia. This is a town known as Beledweyne and you can see people helping people overturn

vehicles. And at one stage, people described the town as completely submerged underwater. And you really get that perspective looking at this

aerial photograph. Look at how much water is inundating these neighborhoods across Beledweyne.

Now, how much precipitation has fallen? Well, you really have to look at the broader perspective here. Remember, the Horn of Africa under drought

conditions, several decade drought. But the recent rains, which are seasonal, have really occurred across the Ethiopian highlands. And that, of

course, flows into the Shabelle River that overflowed its banks.

This is all part of what is called the Intertropical Convergence Zone. It moves from south to north as the Northern Hemisphere enters into its summer

season and brings the precipitation into this portion of Central Africa. And that's when we start to see the heaviest rain start to pick up as we

enter the months of April, especially into May and into June for Central Somalia.

You can see the latest satellite imagery, rather quiet. We do have light precipitation in the forecast, but we do not anticipate any significant

heavy rainfall across Somalia or the Horn of Africa, for that matter. Precipitation totals over the next five days.


We're anticipating anywhere from 10 to 20 millimeters of additional rain but looking upstream towards the Ethiopian highlands, slightly higher

amounts anticipated there, so we'll be on the lookout for the potential of more flooding. Christina, back to you.

MACFARLANE: Thanks very much to Derek. Now, there are innocent people who have lost everything through no fault of their own and they need your help.

United Nations say 25 million people, more than half of Sudan's population, is now in need of emergency aid and protection and it's making an urgent

appeal for nearly three billion dollars in humanitarian assistance.

Africa's third largest nation was already dealing with a hunger crisis before fighting broke out between government forces and a powerful

paramilitary group one month ago. But since then, the situation has deteriorated even further. The U.N. says more than one million civilians

are expected to flee Sudan this year alone. And those who are left behind, well, they need immediate support.

Raouf Mazou is the Assistant High Commissioner of Operations at the UN Refugee Agency, and he joins me now from Geneva. Thank you so much for

joining us and for your time.


MACFARLANE: So, Raouf, we are hearing that more than half the population of Sudan is now in need of humanitarian aid and this number that you are

requesting, three billion, is the highest, you know, we've ever seen for this kind of crisis in Sudan. Will that be enough to meet the needs of over

half the population?

MAZOU: It's never enough, it's never enough, but that will at least respond to the most essential needs. And you're talking about, and the three

billion that you're talking about includes the response to the needs in Sudan itself, but also into neighboring countries. Because in the million

that we're talking about, we're talking about the possibility for one million people to leave the country in the next six months and go into

neighboring countries. And already now, arrivals into Chad, arrivals into Egypt, arrivals into South Sudan, arrival into Central African Republic and

that's what we are appealing for, to provide support to those who are in Sudan but also those who have sought asylum in neighboring countries.

MACFARLANE: Can you break down a little more what this three billion in aid would actually provide and for how long that would provide?

MAZOU: It's mainly for six months. That's the emergency situation. As you said yourself, this crisis has lasted for the past one month, and that has

already resulted in, as I said, more than 220,000 people leaving the country, 700,000 people displaced in the country. This will provide them

with health -- healthcare assistance, shelter assistance, protection. We know that a number of people who are on the move are particularly

vulnerable, so the type of assistance that they require.

MACFARLANE: I think one of the major issues as we've been seeing and reporting is that as things stand, there are no humanitarian corridors

open, or that's what we've been hearing, despite the latest attempts of a ceasefire last Friday to allow that to happen. How will you get this aid to

the most impenetrable areas without those humanitarian corridors in place?

MAZOU: We are in a position to provide the assistance in some parts of the country, in the eastern part of the country, for instance, where you have a

number of refugees. Sudan is a country which, at the time when the crisis started, had one million refugees from other countries. So, we are in a

position of providing assistance to some part of the country, and that's what we're negotiating now.

The agreement that you made reference to, which was signed in Jeddah a few days ago will help us gradually have access to more parts of the country

where needs are. So, we have to consistently and continuously request for more access to places where people in need are located.

MACFARLANE: So, is that agreement holding then to some degree and are you in touch with the various different parties to negotiate for this aid to

actually get into Sudan, to places like Khartoum?

MAZOU: Yeah, we are -- we are in touch with the parties to the conflict, constant touch with the parties to the conflict. And we are making

everything that we can. Our colleagues from the World Food Program, for instance, have been able to provide food to some parts of the country. As I

said earlier, we are present, our partners, non-governmental organizations, other U.N. agencies are present in some parts of the country and trying as

much as possible to provide the assistance that is required. But we need -- we need that support.


The $3 billion that I made reference to earlier is needed at present for us to be able to continue to provide the assistance that is required.

MACFARLANE: And you've been talking just now again and again about the number of displaced people, I think around a million, so far. Just to get

your perspective on this, how likely is this to evolve into a broader regional crisis or from what you're seeing right now, are we already at

that point where it is tipping over beyond Sudan?

MAZOU: I would say we're definitely at that point. Right now, as I said, it's about 220,000 people who've crossed into neighboring countries. These

are countries which have their own difficulties, their own issues, so they have to receive additional refugees. If I take Chad, for instance, which

already has 400,000 Sudanese refugees, and we have the same in the region.

So, this crisis is already having a regional impact -- devastating regional impacts. So, we need assistance and we need resources for both inside Sudan

and also for neighboring countries.

MACFARLANE: Well, Raouf Mazou, it's been really good to hear the work that you've been doing on the ground here, the work that is needed still to

come. We appreciate you giving us your time. Thank you.

MAZOU: Thank you very much.

MACFARLANE: All right, coming up, the diplomatic fallout after an explosive allegation by the U.S. ambassador to South Africa. A ship is at the center

of the controversy. We'll talk to a South African official when we return.


MACFARLANE: Hello and welcome back to One World. Let's catch up now on the latest headlines. Help is on the way for Ghana's economic crisis. The

International Monetary Fund is providing a $3 billion rescue loan. The West African country is facing high inflation, debt and weakening currency.

Eventually, Ghana hopes to get $10.5 billion in debt relief over the next three years.


U.S. State Montana has banned the use of TikTok. The new law goes into effect in January. Lawmakers say the Chinese-owned social media app poses

privacy concerns. The ban is expected to be challenged in court. Violators including app stores could face $10,000 a day in fines.

The U.S. Supreme Court has handed the tech industry a big win. The court says Twitter and other social media sites cannot be held liable to

terrorists who use their platforms to communicate. The rulings were unanimous. The case could have upended the use of the internet for


Now, to the fallout after explosive accusations by the U.S. Ambassador to South Africa. Last week, Ruben Brigety accused the South African government

of delivering arms and ammunition to a sanctioned Russian cargo vessel late last year at a naval base near Cape Town. Brigety said, quote, we are

confident that weapons were loaded onto that vessel, and I would bet my life on the accuracy of that assertion.

In response, the South African government summoned Brigety. A foreign ministry statement said Brigety apologized unreservedly to the government

and the people. This is what the U.S. State Department had to say earlier this week.


VEDANT PATEL, U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT DEPUTY SPOKESPERSON: The U.S. government had serious concerns about the docking of a sanctioned vessel at

a South African Naval Port and just as good partners do, we raise those directly with South African government officials but I don't have anything

else --

UNKNOWN: So, does the U.S. now believe defensive material was transferred to that sanctioned ship?

PATEL: I just don't have anything else to offer on this journey. Thank you.


MACFARLANE: Well, time now for the exchange for more on this diplomatic back and forth. We bring in Zane Dangor. He's the Director General of the

Department of International Relations and Cooperation in South Africa. He joins us now live from Johannesburg. Mr. Dangor, thank you for joining us.


MACFARLANE: Good evening. So, following that conversation with your Prime Minister Pandor, we know that the U.S. Ambassador said he was grateful to

have his impressions corrected. Can you tell us what was discussed in that meeting and what your ships were carrying if not arms?

DANGOR: So, Ambassador Brigety apologized to the Minister and our team for making the allegations in the manner that he has. Ambassador Brigety was

with us in some of the meetings that we had with the, you know, the special envoy that President Ramaphosa appointed to engage with the U.S. including

the State Department, Pentagon, National Intelligence. And there we did say that while our defense has got certain, the facts that they put before us

and the State Department and others, is that no arms or ammunition were passed through that ship to Russia.

The U.S. had argued that they have different facts. Based on that, we discussed this with the senior officials in Washington that in order to get

to the bottom of this, to ensure that our own national laws were not broken, we've got a National Arms Convention Act, which ensures that we

cannot sell arms to any country in conflict, irrespective of whether that conflict is lawful or unlawful. So, we did offer this in our discussions

with our counterparts in the U.S. that we will investigate to ensure that no laws were broken.

MACFARLANE: So, can I ask them --


MACFARLANE: Sorry to interrupt.


MACFARLANE: Can I ask them given that act that you've just cited. The South African government, to my knowledge, have not yet publicly denied these

allegations. Is that correct and if so, why not?

DANGOR: Well, the Chairperson of the National Arms Committee which is a Minister, stated that in terms of the records that we have, no arms were

sold to Russia. So, those are the facts that we're working with, but of course we must listen to the concerns that the U.S. has expressed, and

that's why we're investigating it, because we need to get to the bottom of these two different sets of facts.

To date, we don't have any proof that's been given to us, and we are thankful that U.S. authorities has offered to share whatever intelligence

and proof they have with us as the President's investigation gets underway.

MACFARLANE: I understand. So, so far, you have rejected the notion that you have been supplying arms to Russia. You will wait for the outcome of that

investigation and the U.S.' collaboration, however, there has been significant concern that in February of this year, you hosted naval drills

with Russia and China and allowed two sanctioned vessels -- Russian vessels -- to use your military facilities. Are these the actions of an impartial

country as you claim to be?


DANGOR: So, you know, it's interesting that when we discuss this again, even with the colleagues in the Pentagon, they didn't express any in

principle opposition to the fact that we would have naval exercises with Russia or China because we had in the same, you know, just a few months

before that, similar exercises with the U.S. I think what was concerning them and something that we acknowledge was the timing of those exercises

which coincided with the use of force by Russia in Ukraine. And we acknowledged that and we felt that that timing could have signaled

something that we did not want to because we do remain actively unaligned in this conflict.

MACFARLANE: That's interesting, I mean, I think the timing as well that you're referencing coincided with the anniversary of the war as well, which

obviously caused some concern. We know that your President announced that South Africa will be taking part in an African delegation to travel to

Russia and Ukraine to present a peace initiative to end the war in Ukraine. Both sides have been very clear on where their red lines are on this, so

what will you be proposing exactly?

DANGOR: Look, I think that what the six heads of state from Africa would be wanting to do is to get the two sides to talk. The first issue would be to

ensure that we move towards a ceasefire, a cessation of hostilities. And therefore, the engagement with both sides would be to get them to talk

about firstly stopping the killing, a ceasefire, and any negotiation, a cessation of hostilities is always the first call.

The kind of issues that would ensure a long-term ceasefire and a long-term solution then follows. And that's where the issues become a little more

complicated because we know that Ukraine rightfully would not want to give up any territory.

Russia would be concerned about security assurances around NATO and I suppose these are the kinds of issues that the mediators would be putting

on the table and to ensure that -- to relay the basis for them to come around the table and then initiate talks about talks to ensure that the

parameters of what would constitute the issues that both sides would be willing to talk about are agreed upon. So, it's not going to be an easy


MACFARLANE: But would you then -- would you then be encouraging Ukraine to compromise on their position in order to come to the table for talks? You

just mentioned that that is a red line for President Zelenskyy, said he will not sacrifice or compromise on the territory that Russia has already

taken. They want that territory back. So, will you be pushing Ukraine to compromise on that?

DANGOR: Look, we can't be pushing Ukraine into anything that they don't want to do. We can't be pushing the Russians into anything that they don't

want to do. What we would be putting on the table is a framework for discussions, a framework for negotiations and to look at what it is that

both sides would be willing to negotiate around.

Now, we understand Ukraine's concerns about the territorial integrity and the sovereignty. We've said in our statements at the U.N. that we respect

Ukraine's concern on also the territorial integrity. We're also concerned about any, you know, any notions that one can change the geographical

boundaries of countries through the use of force.

So, we understand all these concerns, but at the same time, we want to get people around the table to ensure that in the very first instance, you

know, the killing stop. And we know that Ukrainian civilians and Ukrainian soldiers and Russian soldiers are the ones dying, that there's a potential


MACFARLANE: I understand.

DANGOR: -- for European white war and so, I think the first port of call is to ensure that we get the peace going and then we discuss the parameters

about what will make it a sustainable peace.

MACFARLANE: Understood. A final point I just wanted to put to you. I know that South Africa will be hosting the BRICS Summit in August of this year,

in which obviously Russia is a member. If President Putin attends, will you stand by your ICC commitment to arrest him?

DANGOR: So, I think the -- first, we have our Deputy President is dealing with approaches to this. We remain a member of the Rome Statute. South

Africa is quite keen that we -- we respect international organization that seeks to hold big powers accountable. And as you know, none of the big

powers are part of the Rome Statute. So, we will be working towards a solution that is in keeping with our obligations to international law --

MACFARLANE: But the only solution, surely, is to arrest him. You are a statutory part of the ICC. What other solution is there?

DANGOR: So in, you know, unlike the Al-Bashir case, where President Al- Bashir's immunity was waived through a referral by the U.N. Security Council.


So, it was quite a straightforward, you know, approach to our own domestic law. This one is a little different. Russia, like the U.S. is not a state

party, they are a third party. And there are provisions in the Rome Statute on how third party states would not come through the ICC, through, you

know, we want to have arrests do not arise through the ICC, or through the U.N. Security Council. So, these are some of the issues that we need to

look at, advice is being sought and whether these provisions apply to us or not, we'll be able to make a better decision.

MACFARLANE: Okay, I mean, as I understand it, the ICC position on this is very clear, as are those who sign up and are signatories to the ICC

mandate. So, it will be interesting to see what options you are discussing here later in the year when that BRICS event takes place in August. But for

now, Zane Dangor, I appreciate you coming on and clarifying some of these points for us. Thank you.

DANGOR: Thank you very much.

MACFARLANE: All right, coming up, we'll look at how the fallout from the royal couple's frightening encounter with the paparazzi. You'll hear from

an eyewitness after the break.


MACFARLANE: New details are emerging about the car chase involving the Duke and Duchess of Sussex. The couple were being pursued by paparazzi after

leaving an awards ceremony on Tuesday night. Now, the driver of one of the vehicles they rode in is speaking out. The cab driver says Prince Harry and

Meghan appeared scared and nervous. Max Foster has more details.


SUNNY SINGH, TAXI DRIVER: I didn't feel like I was in danger, but you know Harry and Meghan, they looked very nervous.

MAX FOSTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): More than 25 years after the death of Diana, Princess of Wales, her son, Prince Harry, and his wife,

Meghan, claim they were chased by paparazzi in what the couple's team is calling a near catastrophic car chase.

Prince Harry, Meghan and her mother Doria Ragland attended the Women of Vision Awards at the Siegfield Ballroom in New York City. Meghan was

honored for her global advocacy to empower women and girls. But it wasn't until they left the event that things allegedly escalated.

A local law enforcement source tells CNN a, quote, swarm of paparazzi followed them in cars, motorcycles and scooters.


The convoy eventually went to the 19th precinct, where the couple waited until they could safely leave.

Chris Sanchez, a member of the Duke and Duchess of Sussex's security detail, says they switched cars more than once during the chase. They were

first seen in a black car and then a yellow cab. The driver of that cab says he noticed the paparazzi before, as the couple's security guards

started to tell him the address to drive to.

SINGH: And as soon as he's about to say where they're going, all of a sudden the paparazzi just stormed the taxi.

FOSTER: He says he saw six paparazzis total.

SINGH: When the paparazzi started taking pictures, the one I heard from the back, somebody said, oh my God, you know, and then the look on their faces,

you can tell that they were nervous and scared.

FOSTER: That's when the Sussex's bodyguard told him to return to the police precinct. The NYPD who provided assistance to the Sussex's security team

says the paparazzi made the transport of Harry and Meghan challenging, but there were no reports of collisions, injuries or arrests.

The couple's security teams, say the Duke and Duchess and their convoy, were pursued by the paparazzi for more than two hours, allegedly resulting

in multiple near collisions with other drivers, pedestrians and two NYPD officers, adding the Sussexes, who were staying at a private residence on

the Upper East Side of Manhattan, did not want to compromise the security of their friend's home.

New York City Mayor Eric Adams has questioned the validity of that two-hour time frame but says nothing like this should ever happen in a city as dense

as the Big Apple, calling the incident reckless and irresponsible.

ERIC ADAMS, NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: You shouldn't be speeding anywhere, but this is a densely populated city. And I think all of us, I don't think

there's many of us who don't recall how his mom died.

FOSTER: The Sussexes never claimed this was a high-speed car chase. In fact, their security detail told CNN that they were sticking to the letter

of the law, didn't break the speed limit because they didn't want to create more danger on the roads. They also point out that the cab driver was only

involved in less than 10 minutes of what was a more than two hour car chase and ordeal. Max Foster, CNN, London.


MACFARLANE: Let's bring in CNN's Chief Law Enforcement Intelligence Analyst John Miller. And John, as we've been hearing there, this is perhaps a more

complex and nuanced story the closer we look at it. We have now heard accounts from the NYPD rejecting this as a near catastrophic event. And we

obviously just heard the account from the taxi driver there. What more are you learning from law enforcement officials about what actually took place

yesterday around this time?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, Christina, I think what you saw is they got their picture coming to the

event, they got their pictures taken leaving the event, and when they left in the vehicles, there was a vehicle following them, and when they were

able to separate from that vehicle in traffic, then the appearance of the scooters, the electronic bicycles, the mopeds, and then every time they

were able to create some distance between those who were following them, they talked about people going down the sidewalks.

There was an incident on 34th street where that's a big two-way street where the people following them actually came into the opposite direction

of traffic and drove against traffic to catch up, crossed a sidewalk to run a red light. So, they say, you know, they were feeling under a lot of

pressure and they did not want to bring this home.

The one thing they underlined, Christine, is it wasn't really about the taking of pictures. The object of the game seemed to be to see where they

were staying so they could stake out that location every day and get them coming and going and follow them to every location. That's what they


MACFARLANE: I mean, given the multiple people that were involved in this or perhaps multiple people that were at risk as a result of this car chase --

the paparazzi chase, whose job was it to ensure public safety, you know, in this incident, John?

MILLER: Well, in this case, the public safety is insured by the NYPD, who was a part of this motorcade where you have two detectives, they're there

not to chase photographers, they're there to deal with a real threat, any kind of physical attack from a stalker, an assault, anything like that. But

as this went on, you know, kind of an hour and a half or two hours driving around the streets, this kind of slow motion chase where the hazards were

increasing as these paparazzi got more desperate to not lose them, they finally went to a police station and that's where they kind of went to Plan

B, the taxi which failed.


And then went to Plan C which actually succeeded, which is when the police turned out to do the midnight shift, the midnight to eight shift, they got

into their cars, it created basically a gridlock of police cars and cops and they were able to make the short distance to where they were staying

without being followed by the paparazzi because they weren't going to be running down the sidewalks or running through red lights in front of 25

police officers.

MACFARLANE: Yeah, I mean it is an extraordinary kind of set of events really that seem to have occurred and we will continue to follow the

fallout as we find out more. But John Miller, I appreciate your thoughts and insight on this for now. And we will be right back with more after this

quick break. Stay with us.


MACFARLANE: Now, in China, it seems you can get into serious trouble for telling a joke and also defending the person telling it. A woman in China

has been detained for defending the comedian known as "House". His comedy routine led to a $2 million government fine over a joke he told that made

reference to a military slogan. Kristie Lu Stout explains more.


KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN ANCHOR: If you're a comedian in China, don't compare the military to stray dogs. A stand-up set in Beijing on Saturday, the

Chinese Comic Li Haoshi riffed on a military slogan used by Chinese leader Xi Jinping. He made a joke about watching his two adopted stray dogs chase

a squirrel, and it reminded him of the slogan that Xi Jinping used to praise the PLA in its work ethic. Now, the joke went viral, and then on

Wednesday, Beijing police launched an investigation into the comic.

Authorities also fined the company that represents him nearly $2 million. The Beijing Arm of China's Ministry of Culture and Tourism said this,

quote, we will never allow any company or individual to wantonly slander the glorious image of the People's Liberation Army on a stage in the

Chinese capital, unquote.

The Bureau added that the company would never be allowed to stage any future shows in Beijing. Now, the company which earlier issued an apology

has fired the comedian. Li has apologized and cancelled all his performances to, quote, deeply reflect and re-educate myself, unquote.

In China, insults against the military are illegal. In 2021, China passed a law banning slander and insults against military personnel on social media.


Some are praising the government's decision, saying that the joke was an insult to soldiers, but others are fearing a wider crackdown on comedy in

China. On Tuesday, in fact, a woman in northeastern China was detained after defending the comedian on social media. Kristie Lu Stout, CNN, Hong



MACFARLANE: Our thanks to Kristie. Now, adrenaline is not in short supply in the latest installment of the Mission Impossible franchise.



MACFARLANE: Oh my goodness, it turns your stomach. Paramount Pictures has released a new trailer for the seventh movie in the franchise titled, "Dead

Reckoning" Part One. In it, as you can see, actor Tom Cruise's character performs death-defying stunts, including riding a motorbike off the top of

a cliff and knife-fight on top of a moving train. We would expect nothing less from Tom Cruise, would we? The movie is set for release in July.

And thank you so much for watching One World. I'm Christina Macfarlane. Stay tuned for Amanpour coming up after this quick break.