Return to Transcripts main page
One World with Zain Asher
Moscow And Kyiv Continue Blaming Each Other For Breach Of Navarkarhovka Dam; Blinken Meets Crown Prince In Saudi Arabia; Mike Pence Announces Presidential Bid; Pope Francis Undergoes Surgery; Prince Harry Sues Britain's Mirror Group; Fighting Between Sudan Army And Rapid Support Forces Now On Its Eighth Week; A John Hopkins Center For Gun Violence Solutions Says Gun-Related Deaths Reached Record Levels In The U.S. In 2021; Two Killed, Five Wounded at A Richmond, Virginia High School Graduation Ceremony. Aired 12-1p ET
Aired June 07, 2023 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LYNDA KINKADE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Lynda Kincade live from CNN's headquarters in Atlanta. Welcome to ONE WORLD. Moscow and Kyiv
continue to blame each other for the breach of that critical dam in southern Ukraine. Just a short time ago, Russian President Vladimir Putin
called the dam collapse a barbaric act and an environmental and humanitarian catastrophe in a phone call with Turkey's President. At the
same time, Ukraine's Deputy Defense Minister accused Russia of causing the dam collapse, adding they have actually done more damage to themselves and
their armed forces.
Meantime, the devastation is getting worse. Flooding in cities downstream has forced more than 1,500 people to evacuate. That's according to
Ukrainian officials. More than 1,900 homes are flooded. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says hundreds of thousands of people have been left
without drinking water. Both Moscow and Kyiv report that a handful of people are missing.
CNN has not been able to establish what caused the dam to collapse. Neither side is providing hard evidence to back up their claims. And I want to turn
now to our Frederik Pleitgen. He is right in the thick of the flooding and the damage and he filed this report earlier from Kherson.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: After the catastrophic destruction of the Navarkarhovka Dam, as you can see, there still is a lot of water here
in the city of Kherson. One of the things that we've been really surprised about is how fast that water has been rising. In fact, just yesterday when
we were here, we were, I'd say about a hundred, maybe 150 yards in that direction, but now that entire area is inundated. You can't go there
anymore. At the same time, the rescue efforts are ongoing to free people from their houses, people where the water rose so quickly that they
couldn't get out.
As you can see, police here, the army's here. They have some boats here and they've been trying to get the people out. Now, this is an operation that
was ongoing throughout the entire night. That's what the authorities were telling us, that they would not rest. But it's also one that was ongoing
under nearly constant shelling. We were hearing that throughout the entire night.
We've been hearing it throughout the entire course of the day, is that there's shelling that seems to be coming from multiple rocket launching
systems, but also from artillery, as well. And as you can see, if you go over here, it's not only people that are being saved from the buildings
here, there are also a lot of animals, as well. There's a lot of cats here in these cages.
One of the things we're also seeing is the rescuers coming here and then they'll have with them what they've picked up from maybe a fence or maybe a
rooftop. Obviously, a lot of those animals are also very much in danger as are the people who are still caught in that area. Fred Pleitgen, CNN,
Kherson, Ukraine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KINKADE: The top U.S. diplomat is in Saudi Arabia, trying to steady a relationship that has been strained recently. Antony Blinken sat down with
Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. A U.S. official telling CNN, the two had an open, candid discussion about a range of issues. Looming over
the talks, planned Saudi oil production cuts and its abysmal human rights record.
And there's a lot to unpack on this visit. I want to bring in our International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson, who joins us live from
London. Good to have you with us, Nic. So, this was a lengthy meeting, almost two hours, and obviously they spoke about sports and we'll get to
that in a moment, but they also discussed a range of issues from the price of oil to Iran, Israel, Yemen, even the war in Sudan.
[12:05:00]
And they described the talks as candid, but certainly a lot to cover.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah, and I think if you look at the cooperation between the United States and Saudi to try to
bring peace to Yemen and the same to de-escalate the internal conflict in Sudan, both countries have worked together to promote a peace formula
there, although it's still yet to really take hold, of course, in Sudan.
In Yemen, they hoped and talked about how to strengthen and improve the sort of 14 months of relative calm there's been. And that was something to
build on, because the relationship between the United States and Saudi Arabia has been particularly tense, because the United States is -- does
hold Saudi Arabia to a very high human rights standard, as it holds all countries, too.
And that hasn't sat well in Saudi Arabia. And the relationship has become strained. One thing that Blinken does want to do is to try to get Saudi
Arabia to normalize relations with Israel.
Now, for its part, Saudi Arabia wants things in exchange. And perhaps this isn't the right leadership in Israel at the moment for Saudi Arabia to make
any kind of deals. But areas of compromise and discussion, we're told, were around the economy.
During -- into this, U.S. diplomats have pointed out that Saudi Arabia signed a $37 billion deal with Boeing Airlines that employs 140,000 people
in the United States. So, there's big areas of economic cooperation. They wanted to improve that in the technology sector, in the 5G and 6G cellular
networks.
There was opportunity for that there. That was potentially part of the discussion. And discussion as well about future clean energy. And that
could have been a reference to the fact that Saudi Arabia wants its own domestic program to help provide cleaner energy for the country.
So, there was a lot to discuss and perhaps in there somewhere a trade-off to bring that normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel. But Secretary
Blinken going into this meeting has said, anything on that agenda is a very long -- there's a lot of work to do on that, it won't happen quickly.
KINKADE: And Nic, I want to ask you about the huge investment Saudi Arabia is making in sports, obviously luring some pretty high-profile European
soccer players. But also, the development around the golf, Saudi Live Golf, now combining its commercial business with the PGA Tour and also the
European Tour.
The PGA Tour once saying that the Live Golf is a vehicle to sportswash Saudi atrocities. Essentially, all lawsuits have now been dropped, but the
fallout continues. Some players describing a feeling of betrayal and they're not alone.
ROBERTSON: I think Saudi Arabia here, and particularly the Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, is trying to drive Saudi on a new course. He's trying
to rebrand its image. And as diplomats in Saudi Arabia say, you know, his involvement or the perception from the Saudi perspective, of course,
because the CIA has said that they believe that Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman was partly responsible for the killing of Jamal Khashoggi. It was
his team that murdered and dismembered Jamal Khashoggi in 2018.
That tarnishing of his image and therefore the country's image can't be undone. But he is determined to push ahead, whether it's in diplomacy and
certainly in the arena of sports, is to be a dominant player. He sees the sort of gloss and shine that brings to the United Arab Emirates, where it's
hosted Formula One, where it's hosted tennis championships.
Saudi Arabia wants the same. He wants to be able to rebrand Saudi Arabia and give it a better international image. But it also goes deeper than
that, you know, particularly in terms of soccer, is trying to give Saudis, who've not had opportunities for entertainment in the way that they have
under his leadership, give them something different in the country. So, I think there's several things that are going on, but certainly Saudi's image
in the world is a big part of it.
KINKADE: Yeah, exactly. Nic Robertson for us, coming to us from London. Good to have you with us. Thank you. One of professional golf's top stars
and a big voice on the PGA Tour is not mincing his words about his feelings towards LIV. Rory McIlroy says he hates LIV and hopes it goes away. Now,
those remarks come as the U.S.-based PGA Tour agreed Tuesday to form that partnership with rival LIV Golf and DP World Tour. Here's more now from
McIlroy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RORY MCLLROY, PROFESSIONAL GOLFER: Hate LIV. Like, I hate LIV. Like, I -- I hope it goes away, and I would fully expect that it does. And I think
that's where the distinction here is. This is the PGA Tour, the DP World Tour, and the PIF. Very different from LIV. All I've tried to do is protect
what the PGA Tour is and what the PGA Tour stands for, and I think it will continue to do that. It's hard for me to not sit up here and feel somewhat
like a sacrificial lamb and you know feeling like I've put myself out there and this is what happens.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[12:10:00]
KINKADE: Well, the Saudi back to LIV golf series has been controversial after several golfers quit the PGA Tour to join it, while others refused
the offers. Donald Trump has a new challenger in the race for the Republican presidential nomination and it's someone who's used to be seen
as one of his closest allies. Trump's Vice President, Mike Pence, will announce his own presidential bid in a speech about an hour from now.
Pence and Trump have had a falling out since that January 6th insurrection at the U.S. Capitol, though Pence has been reluctant to attack his former
boss too openly. And Pence made no reference to Trump at all in his announcement video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Different times call for different leadership. Today, our party and our country need a leader that will
appeal, as Lincoln said, to the better angels of our nature. Today, before God and my family, I'm announcing I'm running for President of the United
States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KINKADE: CNN's Kyung Lah is following the developments from Iowa and joins us now live. Good to see you, Kyung. So, Mike Pence is now the first vice
president in history to run against a former running mate. As we just heard there in that video, he said different times call for different leadership.
The big question is, can he legitimately take on his former boss?
KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's going to be quite the dance. And there are a handful of vice presidents. It's a little
difficult depending on which way you parse U.S. history, but there have been these sorts of match-up, just a very small handful in U.S. history
before.
The reason you may not hear of many of them is because, first of all, it's very rare for these presidents to run in this capacity and then for the
vice presidents to challenge them. That just sort of frames how difficult the challenge is for Mike Pence as he kicks off his campaign.
What we are standing in the middle of in, what we are waiting for this to begin in just about one hour is for the Pence campaign to take off in gusto
here in Iowa. The belief is that despite the difficult, despite the challenge of taking on his boss in such a historic manner that Mike Pence
will be able to do it. If he's going to be able to do it, it's going to be here in Iowa. He's got to get into those living rooms. He has to shake
those hands. It's the sort of retail politics that really works here in Iowa and will define whether or not Mike Pence and his presidential
campaign will be able to continue.
So, Lynda, the day one of this campaign and what is going to be months and weeks of very hard work here on the ground. They plan on trying to visit
all 99 counties. Lynda.
KINKADE: Busy, next 18 months. Also, Kyung Lah for us in Iowa where those first votes will be cast in the GOP primary, thank you very much. And one
quick programming note. CNN will host to Town Hall hours from now with Former Vice President Mike Pence live from Grantham University in Des
Moines, Iowa. The Republican presidential candidate will take questions from CNN Anchor and Chief Political Correspondent Dana Bash. So, be sure to
tune in, that is Wednesday, June 7th, 8PM in Des Moines, Iowa, Thursday 9AM in Hong Kong, right here on CNN.
Well, Pope Francis will spend the next few days in a Rome hospital where he's undergoing abdominal surgery today. The Vatican says the operation
will repair a hernia that was causing him pain and other symptoms. His spokesman says the Pope should make a full recovery. This is the latest in
a long list of ailments the Pope has faced recently.
Well, Barbie Nadeau joins us now from outside that hospital in Rome. Barbie, good to have you on the story. So, is the Pope still in surgery? Do
we have an update yet?
BARBIE NADEAU, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No, we don't have an update yet. You know, the surgery started a couple of hours ago. We expect the Vatican to be
giving us an official statement, or at least his surgeon should be giving us an official statement here in the next couple of hours.
But it's important to note that per se, this was not an emergency surgery. Yesterday, he came here to this hospital where he was recovering from
infectious bronchitis back in March. He came for an hour-long visit, and then he went back to the Vatican, stayed at home last night, and presided
over his weekly audience in St. Peter's Square to a large group of people. And then he came by private car here. He didn't come by ambulance here. And
I think that's important to note right now.
He's also got a really busy summer ahead. They have not made any cancellation or note of cancellation of trips he has in August. He's
planning to go to Portugal the first week of August. He's planning to go to Mongolia the last week of August.
And so, we've been told that this is a surgery that is meant to address some lingering pain and increasing pain relating to abdominal surgery on
his colon he had two years ago. But again, until the Vatican gives us the all-clear that he's all clear, we're still waiting, wondering and hoping
for his full recovery. Lynda.
[12:15:00]
KINKADE: Yeah, hopefully he makes a full recovery quite quickly. But it sounds like it's some busy travel plans coming up. Bobby Nadeau for us in
Rome, thank you.
Well, Prince Harry got emotional on the witness stand earlier when he was answering a question from his lawyer about the past two days of cross-
examination. Harry replied, it's a lot. The Prince is suing Britain's Mirror Group, alleging its journalists hacked his phone to gather
information on him. This is the culmination of years-long fight against the British tabloids.
I want to bring in CNN's Royal Correspondent Max Foster for more on this. And Max, Harry was testifying about quite salacious stories. Just take us
through the questions and answers he faced today.
MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, well, so every time it's a tabloid story, a lot of them are very salacious. And for example, there's
one today about a lap-dancing bar. Harry had gone there. There was an argument with his girlfriend, Chelsea Davy, afterwards. And he was
questioning not the story. He wasn't particularly proud of the story being out there, I don't think, or anyone in the room.
But it was all about how that story ended up in the newspaper. And then you had the lawyer for Mural Group suggesting that it could have come from one
of her friends. Harry is saying it was very suspicious.
So, each time he looked at one of these stories, he said, that feels suspicious to me, feels like the information there had been obtained
illegally because there's only a few people that really knew about what happened and it would have potentially come from phones because a lot of
that happened across phones. You will have to wait to see how it all plays out.
Ultimately, Harry was quite calm and collected throughout. He stuck to what he knew he admitted he didn't know. And I've seen lawyers praising him for
his performance there. Other lawyers suggesting that he wasn't really across the detail. And one of the issues being that he couldn't remember
when he read these stories for the first time.
And so, the mirror lawyers are suggesting that how could he know that he was harmed by the stories or felt bad about the stories if he couldn't
remember reading them. But you know he's making a much bigger point here, is that he has a lot of experience of how tabloids work and there are
certain stories that felt too suspicious to him.
KINKADE: All right, so Prince Harry has finished giving evidence up to two days of testifying. We'll see how this plays out in terms of an outcome.
Max Foster for us in London, thank you very much.
Well, still to come on ONE WORLD, the fighting between two warring factions in Sudan shows no sign of easing despite several ceasefires. We'll speak to
a former Sudanese ambassador to the U.S. about the conflict.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [12:20:00]
KINKADE: Welcome back, I'm Lynda Kinkade. I want to take a closer look now at the conflict in Sudan amid fears it could further destabilize an already
volatile region. Fighting between Sudan's army and the rapid support forces is now in its eighth week. And while there are reports the warring factions
are restarting truce talks, sponsored by the U.S. and Saudi Arabia, there are still intense clashes in the country and in the capital Khartoum.
A power struggle between two generals is at the center of the fighting. In the nation with a history of wars and coups. Both sides accuse each other
of violating previous ceasefires. Africa's third largest nation was already facing a hunger crisis before fighting broke out in mid-April. Now, there's
fear the humanitarian crisis will get worse.
The United Nations says more than a million people are displaced internally, while nearly 400,000, predominantly women and children, have
fled to neighboring countries. Well, for more on the failed ceasefires and the humanitarian crisis, I want to welcome Former Sudanese Ambassador to
the U.S. Nureldin Satti is also the Co-Chair of the Wilson Center Sudan's working group and joins us now from Grand Blanc, Michigan. Thanks so much
for joining us.
NURELDIN SATTI, FORMER SUDANESE AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: Thank you for having me. Thank you.
KINKADE: So, the warring factions are reportedly restarting these indirect peace talks, the talks of course facilitated by U.S. and Saudi Arabia. What
are you hearing about the progress on those talks?
SATTI: Well, what I'm reading is that there is a lack of progress because there has been a systematic violation of the truces, the many truces that
have been negotiated and the two sides failed to honor their commitment of stopping the war. And it seems to me that one of the issues or the problems
is the -- that neither side could see what the end game would be like.
They cannot imagine themselves in a post-war situation where they are not having the upper hand. So, they would like to fight it to the finish.
KINKADE: So, both sides obviously want power, but after eight weeks of brutal conflict, take us through where you see either side willing to
compromise. What are the biggest sticking points?
SATTI: Well, the biggest sticking points is precisely who is going to prevail and who is going to, you know, who is going to win this war, if it
can be won at all, and who will impose, you know, their will on the others. So, that's what it's all about. And that's why, you know, they think that
it's a war to the finish, and that the other one, well, the army cannot imagine the RSF being part of the army in the future because they treat
them as rebels. And the RSF themselves cannot see themselves in that army because precisely they want to have the upper hand. So, it's really a cash-
22 situation.
KINKADE: And of course, the truce agreements so far have failed to end the fighting and as a result there are many areas in the capital that have been
decimated and areas in Darfur which has already suffered decades of genocidal violence once more facing the brunt of this conflict. We've seen
so many stories about unarmed civilians being killed, many civilians not being able to get water and food. What are you hearing on the ground about
this situation?
SATTI: The situation is catastrophic, as you describe it. It's unimaginable what's going on in Sudan in general, in the capital and in Darfur, parts of
Darfur. It's incredible. We never imagined that they would have, you know, this kind of fighting in Sudan.
Well, in the capital now, you have, you know, homes being looted, people chased out of their homes, and residential areas being bombed from the sky.
So, they are, you know, caught in the middle between those two parties who do not want to compromise and who are using different methods of fighting.
The RSF, you know, occupying areas and civilian areas, and the army trying to bomb them, because short of maybe boots on the ground. The situation in
Darfur is catastrophic, of course, not to mention the hospital that had been, you know, completely destroyed or occupied, you know, by --
particularly by the RSF.
[12:25:00]
The situation in Darfur is catastrophic also. Not later than yesterday, killings in Jineda and in Qutum and other areas, so we are back. RSF, the
situation in Darfur is catastrophic also, not later than yesterday. Killings in Jineda and in Qutum and other areas, so we are back, you know,
to that catastrophic scenario in Darfur, that started in 2003.
KINKADE: And ambassador for the hundreds of thousands of people who have fled the country to neighboring countries like Chad, what do they face?
SATTI: Well, they say, of course, they are facing enormous difficulties. I have some members of my own family and many friends and colleagues, you
know, who fled, you know, the fighting to neighboring countries, whether it's Chad, whether it's Egypt or Ethiopia or South Sudan, and they are
really suffering.
Many of them are there without, you know, any resources. So, you know, it's a very, very difficult situation for them. They need to be assisted, of
course. And I called once more on the regional and international community, you know, to come to the rescue of those people. And of course, for those
who are caught in the middle of the war.
KINKADE: And just quickly, the obstacles for humanitarian groups trying to get aid into the country, what are they facing?
SATTI: Well, they are saying, of course, there are some obstacles. Some of them are contacting me, you know, complaining of being denied visas. Even
the visas are being denied for the humanitarian to go to Sudan, with you know, the excuse that the situation is not secure. And that's precisely why
they are going there to deliver food. And then, of course, the issue of who will receive those, you know, you know, that assistance who will distribute
it and how it's going to be channeled and issues of access and delivery and all kinds of things. There are many, many obstacles, whether
administrative, security or otherwise.
KINKADE: Nureldin Satti, the Former Sudan Ambassador to the U.S., we appreciate your time. Thanks very much.
SATTI: Thank you very much, ONE WORLD. Thank you.
KINKADE: Well, still to come on ONE WORLD, some said he could have been the next U.S. President, but Larry Hogan chose not to run, fearing his
candidacy could help Donald Trump win yet again. He joins us next as the Republican primary gets crowded.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KINKADE: Hello and welcome back to ONE WORLD. I'm Linda Kinkade. I want to catch you up on the headlines right now. And a U.N. court has ruled that a
Rwanda genocide suspect is not mentally fit to stand trial.
Felicien Kabuga is on trial for broadcasting propaganda and arming militias in the 1994 genocide. The court says the 88-year-old cannot care for
himself and is unable to participate in the trial.
British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has arrived in Washington for two days of meetings with congressional leaders and President Joe Biden. Mr. Sunak
stopped at Arlington National Cemetery where he later wreathed at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. He says he wants the U.S. and U.K. to be close
economically as they are in defense and security.
In Ukraine, fighting around the city of Bakhmut remains the epicenter of hostilities, according to Ukrainian Defense Ministry. It comes as NATO
reports fresh signs that Ukraine's long-awaited counteroffensive against Russia appears to be starting. Western officials say they have noted,
quote, a substantial increase in fighting as Ukrainian troops look for weaknesses in Russian defensive lines in eastern Ukraine. And Former
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko tells CNN that the dam collapse won't affect the counteroffensive.
CNN's Sam Kiley joins us now for more on these stories from Kyiv. Good to have you with us, Sam. So, I want to start first on the dam collapse,
Ukraine and Russia both blaming each other. Some say it could be a structural failure. that gave way. This dam of course has been under
control of Russia since early last year. Talk to us about the investigations underway, what you know about the dam collapse and the fact
that the Turkey President is offering an international independent investigation.
SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Turkish President, completely irrelevant, not going to happen. In terms of the
facts on the ground, we do know that the dam was suffering structural failure prior to the complete collapse yesterday morning.
Certainly, by May 28th, there had been a breach in the top, the road was beginning to be washed away across the top and then something happened. It
may have just been a structural collapse. There may have been some kind of explosive charge applied.
There's no evidence though of an explosive or use of explosives yet. But the ultimate responsibility will inevitably lie though with the Russians
who have been in charge and controlling that dam since March last year. So, whatever happened to it is ultimately, unless it was struck from outside by
a missile, there's no evidence for that whatsoever, would be their fault.
Whether it was mismanagement or malice of forethought, there's some evidence that there was mismanagement though, because we've spoken to a
Ukrainian officer who works in the area below the dam in a very sensitive role, keeping an eye on the movements and positions of Russian troops. And
he told us yesterday that they'd been washed away, Lynda, that they had abandoned armored vehicles, their weapons, artillery positions had all been
washed away among the Russians. That would indicate that they didn't know it was going to happen, even if it was their fault, Lynda.
KINKADE: Yeah, it certainly appears that that could be the case of some sort of structural failure. Sam Kiley, good to have you with us from Kyiv.
Thanks very much.
One by one, prominent Republican politicians in the U.S. are lining up to take on Joe Biden in the race for President. But first they must get past
the Republican frontrunner, Donald Trump. And as we mentioned at the top of the hour, Trump's Former Vice President, Mike Pence, is getting in the race
today. He's making a formal announcement in about half an hour. And this is the first time in modern history that a former VP has challenged his old
boss.
And just minutes ago, North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum tossed his hat in the ring. He's barely known outside his home state and is certainly far
back in the polls. Pence and Burgum bring the size of the GOP field to 10 candidates.
But some observers argue that a large field helps Trump's odds of winning the nomination by dividing the anti-Trump vote. And it's unclear that there
are enough anti-Trump Republican voters to stop the former president anyway. Not only is he leading in the polls, but a recent CBS News Poll
asked Republican voters what they want from a candidate.
[12:35:00]
And the quality is most important they seem to align very closely with issues preached by Donald Trump, like opposing what they want from a
candidate and the quality is most important they seem to align very closely with issues preached by Donald Trump like opposing so-called woke or PC
ideas and making liberals angry. And a majority even say they want a candidate who says Trump won the 2020 election.
Well, time now for The Exchange. I'm joined now by former Republican Governor of Maryland, Larry Hogan. And it is worth noting that his name was
tossed around as a potential presidential candidate that he chose not to run because he feared it would divide the anti-Trump vote further. Good to
have you with us, Governor.
LARRY HOGAN, FORMER GOVERNOR OF MARYLAND: Well, it's great to be with you. Thank you.
KINKADE: So, you chose not to run in the presidential race because of this crowded primary and the fear that it will split the anti-Trump vote
further. And you did say that there are several competent Republican leaders who have the potential to step up and lead, but the stakes are too
high for me to risk being part of another multi-car pile-up that could potentially help Mr. Trump recapture the nomination. Can you explain that
further?
HOGAN: Sure. Well, it's what happened in 2016 when, you know, Donald Trump lost.
He only got 25, 30 percent of the primary vote in many of the early states, but there were 17 people running. And so, the rest of it was divided up in
very tiny slices. And, you know, look, I think everybody has the right to run. If they really believe that they have a chance to win the nomination
and they think they have what it takes to be president, we don't want a coronation.
But I think a lot of people want to move on from Donald Trump. But we've got to decide on a candidate that we think can do that, as opposed to
splitting it, as you mentioned, potentially 10 people in the race. And what we see now is Donald Trump with over 50% of that primary vote as of today,
and the rest of the folks pretty much all down there with very little traction in single digits.
And so, I think I do have a lot of friends in the race and a couple more getting in today. There are five, I think, current or former governors,
including Mike Pence and Doug Burgum today, Chris Christie yesterday.
But, you know, I think a lot of them have great abilities, but I'm not sure who's gonna rise up out of that pack and be the one to challenge Donald
Trump. You know, there's a solid chunk of about 30 percent of the people in the Republican primary who will vote for Donald Trump no matter what.
There's about 30 percent that won't vote for him no matter what. And there are about 30 percent that are willing to consider alternatives, but they
haven't decided on who that's gonna be, and we have another year to decide that.
KINKADE: And you tweeted about your support for someone you called your friend, former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, who you said delivers a
hell of a knockout punch. He's run before, he didn't become the Republican candidate, Trump beat him at that. Do you believe he has a better chance
this time around?
HOGAN: Well, he's a good friend, as is Mike Pence and Doug Burgum. And I tweeted about all of them and congratulate them on getting in the race. And
they've all got strengths and they've all got weaknesses. And you know, I think that Governor Christie certainly got what it takes to take it to
Donald Trump, which I think is important. I think he's a guy that can really take it to him in a debate. If Donald Trump gets on a debate stage,
at this point we don't know if that's going to happen.
KINKADE: Yeah.
HOGAN: But look, I think it's just far too early to decide. At this point in any election, a year away from the primaries, we have no idea what's
gonna happen.
KINKADE: And as you say --
HOGAN: I mean, the conventional wisdom is usually wrong.
KINKADE: You did also tweet about other candidates, including Former Vice President Mike Pence and also Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who is very
much aligned with Trump on policy. What will it take for a Republican candidate to get your endorsement?
HOGAN: Well, I'm going to see how things play out. Look, it really depends on how people perform out there in the field. Some people just -- we don't
know what it's going to be like. We don't know the positions they're going to take. We don't know if they're going to be able to connect with the
voters. And we don't have to decide that until next spring. So, it's going to take a lot. I'm going to try to make sure that there are people out
there that can help us move the party back to a more traditional Republican party, to a more Reagan-esque party and away from Donald Trump and the MAGA
Republicans that currently are kind of the ones in control. I think it's very important for our party to get back to winning again and appealing.
with a broader, more positive message that reaches more people.
KINKADE: It's kind of interesting you say that because when you look at the polls of people who are most likely to vote in the GOP primary, they want
Trump.
HOGAN: Yeah.
KINKADE: We've got CNN polls, CBS, YouGov polls. I want to bring up the CNN poll first, which shows that Republican leaning voters or Republican voters
want Trump with 53 percent. The Florida Governor, Ron DeSantis, comes in at second with just 26 percent and then it's a huge drop to Vice President
Mike Pence was six percent, Chris Christie, just two percent.
[12:40:00]
KINKADE: What does that --
HOGAN: Yeah.
KINKADE: -- tell you and at this point in time, should someone drop out?
HOGAN: Well, at this point in time, we don't really have an idea. If you look at 2016, in this point in time, everyone thought that Governor Scott
Walker and Governor Jeb Bush were going to be going to be the next president and Donald Trump was below one percent. So, you know, a year is
an eternity in American politics and things are going to change dramatically.
But you pointed out Governor DeSantis, he's trying to go directly after the MAGA base and to out-Trump Trump, and that's a hard sell. That's hard to
do. So, I think other candidates are going to come at it from a different direction. Chris Christie seems to want to hit Donald Trump directly, and
others are trying to find a way to appeal to those people that supported Donald Trump but are, are willing to consider moving in a different
direction.
Governor, I want to bring up another poll by CBS and YouGov, who asked likely Republican primary voters what they want in a Republican candidate.
And they say they prefer a president to challenges woke or PC ideas, who opposes gun restrictions, who makes liberals angry and says that Trump won
in 2020. So, these are all far-right ideals, right? How does a more moderate candidate cut through that?
HOGAN: Well, that's the most challenging thing and it's what I've been trying to focus on for the past couple of years. You know, I left the
office in the bluest state and the most heavily democratic state in America with a 77 percent approval rating and I thought I would make a pretty good
general election candidate with an ability to appeal across party lines. However, making it through that Republican primary is a very difficult
challenge and it's two entirely different subsets of people.
KINKADE: Yeah.
HOGAN: So, there are about 68 percent of the people in America who do not want Donald Trump or Joe Biden to be president or to be the nominees.
However, only about 20-some percent of the most far-right or far-left actually show up to vote in these primary elections. And so sometimes we
nominate the person who's the furthest to the right or the furthest to the left, and they don't really appeal to the vast majority of swing voters in
the middle.
And this year, this election cycle, I don't think it's ever been a more extreme case of that where the issues that you, the people are focusing on
to win the nomination are really turning off wide swaths of people that are gonna decide the general election in November.
KINKADE: Yeah, I wonder if the election system of voting needs to change and also what your political future is.
HOGAN: Well, I'm not sure what my future is, other than I'm not giving up either on the Republican Party. You know, I think the best days of America
are still ahead, and we are very divided. And I know that's of concern to people around the world and our allies. But we're not as divided as you
would think. I mean, I think there's more that unites us, and we've just got to find a way to kind of break through this angry, toxic politics that
we're seeing and find a way to bring people together around a common set of values and a kind of a more positive hopeful vision of America.
KINKADE: We can only hope. Former Governor of Maryland, Larry Hogan, good to get you on the show. Thanks so much.
HOGAN: Thank you.
KINKADE: Well, we have an update just coming into us about a story we told you about earlier. Pope Francis is now out of surgery. The Vatican says the
three-hour operation took place without complications. The Pope underwent abdominal surgery to repair hernia. He is expected to stay in a hospital in
Rome for the next few days. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back with much more. Stay with us. You're watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KINKADE: Well, now to gun violence in the United States and some startling statistics about its deadly toll. A new report from the John Hopkins Center
for Gun Violence Solutions says gun-related deaths reached record levels in the U.S. in 2021, hitting nearly 49,000 people, with increases in both
homicides and suicides.
Richmond, Virginia, was the scene of the latest gun violence where a day of celebration turned into tragedy. A teenager is accused of opening fire
outside a high school graduation ceremony. Police have identified the 19- year-old suspect. Two people were killed, including an 18-year-old who had just graduated. Five others were wounded. Police say they believe the
suspect knew one of the victims.
CNN's Brian Todd is following the story and joins us now from Richmond. This is such a heartbreaking story. We are learning more about the victims,
apparently a father and stepson killed. What more are you learning, Brian?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right Lynda, we got that information from police just a short time ago naming the victims in this case and the
suspect. First the victim, Sean Jackson, 18 years old, who had just graduated in this theater behind me just moments before he was killed.
Also, Lorenzo Smith, 36 years old. Lorenzo Smith, police say is Sean Jackson's stepfather. Also, a nine-year-old girl who was struck by a car
and injured is also a member of that same family, according to police. Thankfully, she does not have life-threatening injuries.
The suspect is named as Amari Pollard, 19 years old, and he has been charged with two counts of second-degree murder. He was arraigned just a
short time ago.
Taking you through the scene here very quickly, the shooting occurred just after the graduation ceremonies here at the Altria Theater. People kind of
came out this way. This is Monroe Park. Hundreds of people were in this park, according to police, when the shooting occurred, taking pictures and
doing everything that you do after a graduation. Then, according to police, the shooting took place right about over here. And you can see where
flowers have been left at the spot where two of the victims that we saw in amateur video actually were being tended to by first responders and others.
We saw victims lying on the ground right about here and over here. So, this all occurred within this radius of where we're standing right here. We did
speak about a motive, possible motive, with the Police Chief Rick Edwards. Here's what he had to say a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICK EDWARDS, RICHMOND INTERIM POLICE CHIEF: We believe that the two individuals, Shawn Jackson and Amari Pollard knew each other. This is a
mass shooting, but we don't believe it was what is typically referred to as an active shooter. This was targeted at one individual. This was a dispute
that we're hearing took place over the course of over a year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: And the Police Chief also said that Amari Pollard, the suspect, was actually inside this theater over here, attending a graduation, I think the
same graduation is what he said, as Shawn Jackson was going through. Then they came out and according to police, Amari Pollard allegedly shot Shawn
Jackson and his stepfather. Then police say Amari Pollard fled on foot.
This is the campus of Virginia Commonwealth University right behind me right here. He fled on foot a short distance from here and it was not
police who apprehended him, but the security services from the university - - VCU Security, actually, were able to confront him. He surrendered peacefully and was apprehended then. Lynda?
KINKADE: All right, Brian Todd for us in Richmond, Virginia. Thank you very much. In Florida, a white woman has been taken into custody in connection
with a fatal shooting of her neighbor, a black woman. The suspect will appear in court via video link on Thursday.
[12:50:00]
Authorities say the victim is a mother of four. She was shot and killed after knocking on her neighbor's door. The suspect says she acted in self-
defense.
The county sheriff says investigators had to consider Florida's Stand Your Ground Law before making the arrest.
And opening statements begin today in the trial of a Florida school resource officer in connection with the deadliest high school shooting in
U.S. history. Scott Peterson is accused of staying outside Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School on February 14th, 2018, while a former student carried
out a deadly rampage, killing 14 students and three staff members. Scott Peterson has pleaded not guilty to 11 counts. He says he did nothing wrong.
Well, coming up. Stay inside, that's the recommendation from officials across the north eastern U.S. after smoke blankets the region. When you can
breathe easier, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KINKADE: Take a look at this, a shot from a live tower cam in New York, which typically shows the skyline. That is smoke blanketing America's
northeast. And it will get worse before it gets better. But smoke is moving in from dozens of wildfires burning in Canada. The air quality in the
northeast is already at the unhealthy code red level, but could fall to code purple in the coming hours. Athena Jones has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNKNOWN: I could smell it and feel it, yeah.
ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): People in New York City masking up again, not because of COVID, but due to harmful smoke
wafting into the city. Right now, New York City is among the top five most air polluted cities in the world. At one point, the air quality index
soared past 200 Tuesday night according to New York City Mayor Eric Adams. That's a very unhealthy level.
The poor air quality is caused by more than 150 active wildfires burning in Canada. The smoke from those fires creating a haze for millions. It should
be super crowded. Everybody should be trying to get the good air, but it's not crowded. That tells you something, right?
More than 40 million people across the Northeast, Midwest and Mid-Atlantic are under air quality alerts affecting areas around Boston, shrouding
Pittsburgh in smoke while leaving Hartford, Connecticut under dense haze and smoke lingering over New Jersey.
[12:55:00]
UNKNOWN: You can see the haze over the stadium.
JONES: The ominous skies clouded the start of the game at Yankee Stadium. But the haze did not stop all New Yorkers from venturing outside on
Tuesday.
UNKNOWN: I am not just going to stay in the house because of the air quality.
UNKNOWN: It is a little hazy, but they say, you know, you shouldn't do strenuous activity, but I feel like I can go for a run right now. You know,
I know I shouldn't maybe.
JONES (voice-over): Sports and family medicine physician Tyler Wheeler warns even if you can't see the smoke, it can still cause harm.
TYLER WHEELER, SPORTS AND FAMILY MEDICINE PHYSICIAN: The particle sizes are really very small which allows them to penetrate deeply into the lung
tissue. So, what the smoke generally does to the lungs, the thought is that it increases inflammation into the lungs.
JONES (voice-over): At least 10 school districts in central New York have canceled outdoor activities due to poor air quality which is not expected
improve in the coming days as a cold front will likely push more smoke south and east into the U.S.
WHEELER: Children who are at higher risk of lung conditions certainly would be appropriate to minimize their exposure to the outdoor air.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KINKADE: That was our Athena Jones reporting there. Well, thanks so much for watching ONE WORLD Today. I'm Linda Kinkade. Good to be with you. Stay
with us. Amanpour is up next. You're watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
