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One World with Zain Asher

Search and Rescue of Capsized Boat Carrying Hundreds of Migrants Underway Off the Coast of Southern Greece; Ukrainian Forces Claim to Gain Some Ground in their Fight Against Russia; Coastal Areas Near the India- Pakistan Border Brace for Cyclone Biparjoy; Man Who Killed a Homeless Street Artist by Chokehold is Indicted Grand Jury. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired June 15, 2023 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ZAIN ASHER, CNN HOST: Hello everyone, I'm Zain Asher in New York and this is One World. Aid workers in Greece say many of the survivors from a

capsized boat are overwhelmed, in shock and looking for their loved ones. The search and rescue operation is underway off the coast of southern

Greece after a boat carrying hundreds of migrants sank early Wednesday. At least 78 people have now been confirmed dead.

The U.N. believes up to 750 people were on board, including dozens of children. The Greek Coast Guard provided these aerial photos of the

overcrowded vessel on Tuesday before it sank. It says it most likely capsized because of a sudden shift in weight. More than a hundred people

were rescued and brought to the city of Kalamata. And that's where we find CNN's Melissa Bell, who joins us live now.

No doubt, a difficult few days ahead for those survivors. A hundred a four people were rescued, and it is slim chance that they will find anymore

survivors at this point, Melissa.

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): At this stage, very little at all, Zain. And that's what's so sad, being here in Kalamata, is that there

are relatives of those that were on the boat arriving, trying to get news of their loved ones. Some are Syrians who've sought asylum in Europe, who

knew that a cousin or a brother or a young wife was on board. And increasingly, it's becoming clear that whatever the fee that was paid will

have been paid essentially for them to go to their graves.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BELL (voice-over): A dramatic rescue at sea. The Greek Coast Guard pulls a group of people to safety, the few lucky ones. Survivors of yet another

catastrophe on the deadliest migrant crossing in the world, the Mediterranean Sea. Somehow, 104 people managed to leave this doomed fishing

boat alive, but hundreds are thought to have perished, most still missing in the deepest part of these waters just 50 miles off the Greek coast.

On shore, medics rushed to preserve the lives of those that survived, all are men. Aid workers tell me others were unable to get out.

IPPOKRATIS EFSTATHIOU, SOCIAL WORKER IASIS: Mostly the kids and the women, they've been locked inside the basement of the boat.

BELL (voice-over): At least, 40 children were on the vessel, the U.N. says. And as the search for bodies continues today, there are questions about how

long it took to send help. The boat started out from Libya heading towards Italy and called for assistance on Tuesday afternoon, one charity has said.

It claims the authorities had hours to reach the vessel, but a rescue operation was, quote, not launched until it was too late.

Now, the wait is for news, devastating for families here who think their loved ones might have been on board. This Syrian man spoke to his cousin

last week as he waited to cross from Libya and worries that he could have been on the boat.

UNKNOWN: It's a risk and he knew it, and everyone knew it, but they took it anyway. If he's alive, we're lucky, and if he's not, I'm going to go to

bury him and just give him a grave.

BELL (voice-over): At this stage there's little hope that more survivors will be found. Those that did make it are deeply traumatized and their

future in Europe far from certain.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BELL (on camera): Nazan, I mentioned that it was, had to become the deadliest migrant crossing in the world. Since 2014, it is according to the

United Nations, 20,000 people who've either been confirmed dead or disappeared in the Mediterranean Sea. Those are, of course, the documented

cases. The true figure is likely to be much higher.

[12:05:00]

And, of course, even as Europe, and I'm speaking here of the countries that have been at the forefront of the migrant crisis over the course of last

few years, Greece and Italy, as they continue to tighten their migration policy as Europe as a whole seeks to make it harder for asylum seekers,

migrants to make it to the very shores of Europe. With those who work with the -- trying to help people crossing the sea, the NGOs who patrol the

Mediterranean say is that they fear this will be one of many more tragedies to come, Zain.

ASHER: Melissa Bell, live for us there. Thank you so much. Slowly but surely, Ukraine says it's making gradual progress in its military

offensive. But even this is certainly not an easy fight. It says that Russia is putting up fierce resistance, leading to brutal confrontations

and, quote, battles everywhere.

An army spokesperson says that much of the focus is near the besieged eastern city of Bakhmut, with Ukrainian forces gaining some ground. To the

south, the senior military figure says that more than a hundred square kilometers of territory has been liberated in the Zaporizhzhia direction

over the past week. But earlier Russia claimed its troops repelled two attacks in that area.

CNN's Sam Kiley joins us live now in Kyiv. So, Sam, of course, it is early days in Ukraine's counteroffensive. Just set the scene for us in terms of

what you're hearing about how the Ukrainian troops are doing.

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Zain, they're doing pretty well around Bakhmut, where they've gained a degree of momentum

to the south of the city, with the defense minister here, deputy defense minister, saying that another three kilometers have been captured. We

estimate some 20 square kilometers or so has been liberated there in the last couple of weeks.

That represents a significant turnaround in Ukrainian fortunes around Bakhmut. And of course, then you rightly mentioned the southeastern sector,

which is the new battlefront really, in these early stages of this counter offensive where the Russians have incredibly powerful defensive lines, and

of course they've got air dominance.

But this is all going on against the background of a very subtle warfare that's going on at the same time in the shadows.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KILEY (voice-over): A special forces night operation, the objective to bring a special kind of misery to Russian troops. As they arrived alongside

Ukrainian regulars, the Russians attacked. A night vision recording of a routine assault that the special forces needed to shrug off.

KILEY: How long did you spend under fire like this before you could move?

BRABUS, UKRAINIAN INTELLIGENCE SPECIAL OPS (through translator): The attack lasted about half an hour.

KILEY: And then what did you do?

BRABUS: After that, we took up an observation position and we watched them. We got to work.

KILEY (voice-over): Electronic surveillance pinpointed their victims. First, they killed two paratroopers approaching on their left flank to get

to the group's main targets, Russian commanders near Bakhmut. A sterile record of an all too gritty event in March. First, one officer is shot,

then another, down. He says radio intercepts reveal that the Russians lost two officers and five others to a sniper team that night.

BRABUS (through translator): The result of our operation was the demoralization of the Russian airborne unit because they lost their top

leader.

KILEY (voice-over): Formed when Russia invaded Ukraine last year, this team of experienced veterans works in a secret realm under the intelligence

services. They're tasked with tactical work seeking strategic effect as Ukraine's counter-offensive takes shape. Here, using a modified heavy

machine gun in a hidden bunker last month close to Bakhmut, drone operators more than a mile away are directing Brabus onto Russian troops.

KILEY: How many Russians have you killed in this war?

BRABUS: A lot of. A lot of, for example, here's a lot of Russians.

KILEY: This is when you're on the -- with this gun? How many, more or less there?

BRABUS: I don't know. We didn't calculate, understand.

KILEY: It's the Russians they want to do the counting, because Ukraine's best hope is that Russian troops run, rather than fight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KILEY (on camera): Now Zain, the interesting new development out of those meetings in Europe with NATO and other partners is that the Ukrainians have

been pledged these as short-range and medium-range surface-to-air missiles.

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This are anti-aircraft missiles designed to try to help offset the aerial dominants that the Russians have, particularly on that Zaporizhzhia

frontline down in the southeast. I think that's a very important step for the Ukrainian efforts, Zain.

ASHER: All right, Sam Kiley for us there. Thank you so much. We're getting new details about some extraordinary video that's been circulating on

social media. You can see it here in this clip published by the Wall Street Journal. A Russian soldier who apparently surrendered to a Ukrainian drone

on the Bakhmut battlefield last month.

The Ukrainian commander confirmed to CNN that when the soldier realized he was going to die, he threw his machine gun aside, raised up his hands, and

said he would not continue to fight. He was reportedly working as a liquor store manager before being drafted last year.

As Ukraine's counteroffensive pushes forward, NATO's defense ministers are meeting in Brussels, as our Sam Kiley was just mentioning there, to discuss

long-term support for Kyiv. NATO Chief Jens Stoltenberg says it comes at a critical moment in Russia's war, well now into its second year.

Earlier, U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin opened a meeting of the Ukraine defense contact group where he pledged America's unwavering

commitment to Kyiv and he called on allies to do the same.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LLOYD AUSTIN, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: Throughout the Kremlins' vicious war of choice, Ukrainian forces have shown outstanding bravery and skill. And

Ukraine's fight is a marathon, and not a sprint. So, we will continue to provide Ukraine with the urgent capabilities that it needs to meet this

moment, as well as what it needs to keep itself secure for the long term from Russian aggression. And make no mistake, we will stand with Ukraine

for the long haul.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHER: CNN's Natasha Bertrand joins us live now from Washington. So, Natasha, just walk us through what type of additional lethal aid has been

pledged to support Ukraine as they are in the early stages of this counteroffensive and how the defense secretary hopes that this assistance

will change the game on the battlefield.

Natasha Bertrand, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yeah, Zain, so the conversation in Europe, really over the last day or so and tomorrow with

the meeting of defense ministers from NATO, is really going to be all about kind of tailoring the equipment that these allies can give to the

Ukrainians to what they need to sustain this counteroffensive and push the Russians out.

Now, the kind of equipment that the Ukrainians really need right now is air defense. That is something that they have said multiple times to these

allied countries, is that they need more sophisticated air defense systems. Of course, they really want those F-16 fighter jets, those advanced fourth

generation Western aircraft that they could then use, they say, to gain control of their skies, because of course the Russians are continuing their

aerial bombardment of the country.

So, all of this really, a topic of discussion at that defense contact group meeting today in Brussels. The question of the F-16s is one that they are

currently discussing just in terms of how they're going to provide training to the Ukrainian pilots on these very advanced fighter jet systems,

something that is expected to begin in the next few weeks, but that will likely take at least a few months to train the Ukrainian pilots on.

So, that was a topic of discussion today. And then, of course, there was the announcement that the U.S., along with some other allies, they are

going to be providing these short and medium range air defense missiles that they can -- the Ukrainians can use against the Russians kind of at

short distances, which is an interesting development. And then, of course you have the question of tanks. Another big ticket item that the Ukrainians

really need, of course, are more of those Leopard tanks.

Of course, the U.S.-provided tanks that are expected to arrive later this year, those can make a big difference on the battlefield because Ukraine is

using them really by the dozens, if not hundreds, in this counteroffensive, and many of them are actually being destroyed. And so, what the Ukrainians

need is a bigger commitment from these allies that they can be replenished.

And the Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin did say that while a lot of the - - well, I shouldn't say a lot, but well, you know, a substantial number of the Ukrainians' equipment is being destroyed because this is a war, it is a

very grinding offensive that they are carrying out right now. He does believe that the Ukrainians do have the capability to repair those systems

fairly quickly and get them back into battle.

So, really, the topic of discussion today and tomorrow, it is going to be about what can we give the Ukrainians that they need right now, but also

how can we equip them for the longer term fight? Because as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Mark Milley said in remarks today, this

could be a very long fight indeed, Zain.

ASHER: Natasha Bertrand, live for us there. Thank you so much. Boris Johnson is calling a scathing U.K. Parliament report rubbish and a

political assassination.

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That report found that the Former British Prime Minister deliberately misled lawmakers about Downing Street gatherings that took place despite

U.K.'s COVID-19 lockdown. The Parliament's Committee slammed Johnson's conduct and recommends he be denied a pass to enter Parliament. Johnson abruptly quit Parliament last week after seeing an advance copy of

this report.

Scott McLean joins us live now from London. So, Boris Johnson quit as MP, so that limits how he can be sanctioned here. But he is calling this

report, essentially politically biased. Just walk us through that, Scott.

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Yeah, that and a whole lot more, Zain. He's obviously not happy with how this Committee's work was

carried out and obviously not happy with the conclusion of this report either. And I should clarify here that, of course, there have been

investigations into lockdown parties and rule-breaking when it comes to number 10 Downing Street and other politicians that have been investigated.

Boris Johnson himself received a fine. Rishi Sunak also received a fine.

This Committee's work was looking at the central question of whether or not Boris Johnson deliberately misled parliament. And I'll just give you one

example of that. So, on December 1st, 2021, he was asked about a Christmas party that happened a year earlier and he said that all guidance was

followed completely. Then a week later, when more allegations emerged, he had this to say, listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BORIS JOHNSON, FORMER BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I have been repeatedly assured since these allegations emerged that there was no party and that no

COVID rules were broken and that is what I have been repeatedly assured.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCLEAN: So, the report purposely uses the more neutral language of events or gatherings to describe six parties, essentially, that took place. Some

of them were leaving drinks. One of them was Boris Johnson's birthday party. One of them actually had 200 odd people invited to it who were told

to bring their own booze. And this report is more than a hundred pages, and it goes into, trust me, painstaking detail about what precisely Boris

Johnson said, what he meant, and what he knew at the time, and whether or not, where he made mistakes, he corrected the record.

Ultimately it found that he deliberately misled Parliament and he gave unsustainable interpretations in the words of this report of the rules that

he helped to write. For instance, he continues to insist that some of those parties were actually essential work functions. So, in its findings, the

Committee wrote in part, we came to the view that some of Mr. Johnson's denials and explanations were so disingenuous that they were by their very

nature deliberate attempts to mislead the Committee and the House while others demonstrated deliberation because of the frequency with which he

closed his mind to the truth.

Now, as you alluded to, Boris Johnson obviously not happy with this, he released his own scathing statement that read in part, the Committee now

says that I deliberately misled the House and at the moment I spoke, I was consciously concealing from the House my knowledge of illicit events. This

is rubbish. It is a lie. In order to reach this deranged conclusion, the Committee is obliged to say a series of things that are patently absurd or

contradicted by the facts.

So, as you pointed out Zain, the Committee here recommended 90 days suspension if he were to have still been an MP. The House still has to

debate and ultimately vote on whether they agree with the Committee's findings here. So, this isn't quite over, but at the moment, this sanction

for Boris Johnson is more of a theoretical hypothetical one, since he obviously resigned as an MP, a backbench MP last week.

ASHER: But the Committee is still recommending that he lose his visitor pass to Parliament. Scott McLean, live for us there. Thank you so much. All

right. Still to come, the United States issues a new report on efforts to combat human trafficking around the world. I'll be speaking with the

Ambassador, the U.S. has put in charge of this issue.

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ASHER: Just minutes ago, the U.S. State Department released its annual report on trafficking in person. Secretary of State Antony Blinken praised

several nations for working hard on the issue, and he pointed out the pandemic had made it harder to combat human trafficking all over the globe.

He specifically highlighted three areas of concern. He noted that the supply chain disruptions caused by the pandemic had caused a spike in

demand for trafficked workers.

U.S. has also seen a rise in online scams, one is they offer promises of jobs but end up causing people to be trafficked into dangerous situations.

And the Secretary also noted that despite the belief that trafficking mostly affects women and girls, that there has been a rise in men and boys

falling victim to it, as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Trafficking harms our societies, weakening the rule of law, corrupting supply chains, exploiting workers,

fueling violence. And it disproportionately impacts traditionally marginalized groups, women, LGBTQ plus individuals, persons with

disabilities, ethnic and religious minorities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHER: I'm joined now by Cindy Dyer. She's the US ambassador at large to monitor and combat the trafficking of persons. Cindy, thank you so much for

being with us. Talk to us about the rise of these cyber scams. You've got educated victims essentially being lured online to the promise of a job

that doesn't exist, and they end up being put in very dangerous situations where they are trafficked. Just talk to us about that aspect, because that

has seen a rise this year.

CINDY DYER, U.S. AMBASSADOR AT LARGE TO MONITOR AND COMBAT TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS: Thank you for highlighting that problem. And you are correct. This

is an often a population that we don't think of as being uniquely vulnerable because these individuals frequently do have skills and

education. They have linguistic skills, IT skills. They respond to job offers that appear legitimate, that appear to utilize those skills that

they have.

They willingly accept these offers thinking that it's a great opportunity, but when they arrive at the location, they are forced into these large

compounds where they are not free to leave. They are given outrageous quotas for how much they have to get by scamming individuals online through

romance scams or extortion scams. And if they don't meet that daily quota, they are injured, they are tortured. It is a terrible explosion and I

appreciate you flagging it because we want people to know that this is happening.

ASHER: So, the exploitation then exists on both ends. It's the individuals who are employed, who are trafficked and also the more online victims, as

well. Just talk to us also about how climate change is making people more vulnerable to human trafficking, too.

DYER: Well, we see climate change as a threat multiplier and that it can exacerbate the situation of citizens who are already vulnerable but it can

also create new vulnerabilities to trafficking especially individuals whose occupations are weather dependent. These individuals can be forced out of

the job that they have had and they may not have another one lined up.

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So, it can really be a threat multiplier.

ASHER: And one of the things that I thought was also interesting is just this idea that you're seeing more men and more boys being vulnerable. I

mean, if people think of human trafficking, there is this sort of stereotype that exists in a lot of people's minds that mostly women and

girls are vulnerable. But we're seeing a shift in that, as well. Explain that to us.

DYER: Thank you for flagging that. I think that it's two-fold. I think that, number one, there have always been victims of trafficking who are men

and boys, but they were overlooked. They were not -- people that -- we were not looking for them. Also, they can be less likely to reach out for

services. They may have social norms that prevent them from saying, I'm a victim. And so, some of it, they've been there all along.

Additionally, we do think that there is an increase in men and boys being victims. And this is important because we need to make sure that our

outreach is reaching them, that they are being screened, and that importantly, when they're identified, there are appropriate services

available for them. They can't go to a female-only shelter. So, we need to make sure that we're aware of this and that there are services available.

ASHER: Secretary Blinken today honored several people who have literally made it their life's work to fight against human trafficking. I mean, these

are the heroes, these are the sorts of people who are on the frontlines of the daily fight against human trafficking. Just explain their roles and

some of the things that they've achieved.

DYER: This is definitely the most exciting part of our launch today. We are honoring eight amazing individuals from literally all over the world, from

Iraq and Nigeria, Cambodia, Venezuela, Peru. And these are individuals who have used their roles in their communities to make a big difference. They

have created NGOs to provide services.

They are prosecutors who are holding human traffickers accountable. They are media and journalists who are raising awareness of the cyber scam

issues that you and I spoke about earlier. It is an opportunity for us to honor them, hopefully raise awareness about their good work, and share that

good news story.

ASHER: All right, Cindy. Thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it.

DYER: Thank you for having me.

ASHER: Of course. The TIP Report grades countries on efforts to combat human trafficking. Tier 1 countries comply with the minimum standards. Tier

2 countries do not fully comply but are making significant efforts to improve. There's also a Tier 2 watch list --Tier 2 watch list rather for

countries that do not meet the minimum standards and have a significant or increasing number of trafficking victims, but they are still taking steps

to do better.

Finally, there's a Tier 3 for countries not in compliance and not making efforts to improve. All right, still to come, millions of people are in the

path of Cyclone Biparjoy. We'll look at what those on the Indian Pakistan border are doing to prepare. That's next.

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ASHER: Hello and welcome back to One World. Let's catch up on the headlines. The U.N. is condemning the abduction and killing of West

Darfur's governor. The Sudanese armed forces blame RSF groups for Wednesday's murder. RSF groups say outlaws were responsible for the

killing. The U.N. is calling for quick justice and an end to the current unrest in Sudan, today marking three months of violence.

The head of India's wrestling federation is facing at least three charges of sexual misconduct. Some of the country's top female wrestlers have

accused Burbajoon Sharun Singh (ph) of sexual assault. Singh is also a powerful lawmaker. Delhi police launched an investigation in April after

criticism that they were not acting fast enough. Singh has denied any wrongdoing.

Coastal areas near the India-Pakistan border are bracing for the arrival of Cyclone Biparjoy. The storm has sped up a bit and is expected to make

landfall sometime in the next few hours. Disaster response teams have been dispatched to help with rescues or other emergencies. Tens of thousands of

people were evacuated ahead of the storm.

CNN Meteorologist Jennifer Gray joins us now at the very latest. So, what can we expect, particularly in coastal areas on the India-Pakistan divide?

JENNIFER GRAY, METEOROLOGIST: Well, Zain, I think the biggest threat with this storm is really going to be the rainfall, the flood threat that's

going to come along with it. The winds are strong. Yes, we will get very strong winds along the coast and well inland. The winds are down low to 100

kilometers per hour. The storm is starting to steadily weaken as far as the winds go, but it's still going to carry a very powerful punch as far as the

rain goes.

So, 130-mile per kilometer per hour gusts is what we're seeing. It's finally picking up some speed. If you remember, this storm has basically

just been, just stalled essentially, meandering around the sea and just not moving much at all. So, we had some winds and very high surf, but finally

pushing in and it will be making landfall most likely in the wee hours of the morning, local time.

So, we're looking at the next 12 hours are going to be the roughest as far as the coastal areas go with the strongest winds, the rainfall, the

flooding potential, as well as the storm surge. And then as this storm pushes inland, it's really going to have an impact because we're going to

see very heavy rainfall torrential downpours and it's going to be far reaching.

So, two to three meters of storm surge right along the coast in this area, right around where it's expected to make landfall. The storm surge will be

a little bit less as you go a little bit farther out, but it's carrying a lot of moisture and it's not going to die out. Once it makes landfall, you

can see a lot of moisture still within the storm as it goes inland over the next day or two.

We're talking about anywhere between 250 to maybe topping 500 millimeters of rain. Well inland along the coast, we're looking at about 250

millimeters of rain and then widespread amounts a little bit less, but major flooding could take place across India and Pakistan as the storm

pushes in. Then you can see Saturday evening making it very far inland but by then, areas along the coast, Zain, should be much better as far as the

wind and rain goes. But again, the next 12 to 24 hours are going to be the worst as the storm is making its landfall.

ASHER: Jennifer Gray, live for us there. Thank you so much.

GRAY: Thanks.

ASHER: And we'll take a closer look at the U.S. Supreme Court now as it delivers a slew of opinions today and over at the next few weeks. Rulings

that could have far-reaching consequences. One such decision could have an impact on a generation of young people of color and upend decades of

precedent. The nine justices are weighing whether or not to ban universities from considering race as a factor in their admissions process.

[12:35:00]

Challenges are targeting Harvard University, the oldest private university in the United States, and the University of North Carolina, the country's

first public one. Both colleges consider an applicant's race and ethnicity during admissions as a way of enhancing campus diversity.

But a conservative group is challenging that very policy. Students Affair Admissions argue that this practice violates the 14th Amendment's Equal

Protection clause dashes the promise of a color-blind society and puts Asian Americans specifically at a disadvantage.

Time now for The Exchange. We want to delve deeper into this issue of affirmative action in the Conservative majority court. Joining us live now

is Sarah Clark Kaplan. She's Executive Director of Anti-Racist Research and Policy Center at American University.

Sarah, thank you so much for being with us. So, for much of American history -- much of American history, colleges have been reserved for the

elite, the wealthy, certainly predominantly white people, in the United States. And I think a lot of people will agree that it is important to

level the playing field. My question to you is, what is the right way to do that? And should race be used as a factor for colleges in deciding who to

accept and who they should not accept?

SARAH CLARKE-KAPLAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR ANTI-RACIST RESEARCH POLICY CENTER, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: Well, you know, Zain, I think one of the things that's

really crucial for us to understand is that race currently is one of up to a hundred categories that are considered when we think about creating a

diverse and balanced college admissions class of any given year at any university that's a relatively selective university.

But what we do know is that while it doesn't make a huge amount of impact in the educational outcome and access of students who are, you know, white

students who are getting into these universities and elite students that affirmative action, or more accurately, race-conscious admissions makes a

massive difference in the educational opportunities and access for students of color. It is not a perfect system for sure, but it is actually the best

and most effective system that we have to date, and we've been using it since the 1960s to some significant effect.

ASHER: So, what about people who say, look, you know, I'm white or I'm Asian-American and I have worked so, so hard to get into Harvard or Yale or

Princeton. I have played lacrosse. I have played ice hockey. I have been president of the coding club in my high school. I also practice piano three

hours a day and I play the French horn. And I had nothing to do with the slave trade. I had nothing to do with, you know, discrimination and

segregation in this country.

Why should I be denied a place at my dream university? And why should my place go to a black person or another minority? Because what has happened

to them, even though I can acknowledge it and I have a lot of empathy, it's not my fault. Why should I have to pay the price? What do you say to

people, many people by the way, across this country who believe that?

CLARKE-KAPLAN: Absolutely, and the number of people who believe that are growing. And it's based in part, in the fact that is actually not what's

happening. So, the first thing that I always say is, I am so sorry you didn't get in, but that is actually not how college admissions work.

So, one of the first things that we need to understand is that there are not quotas. It's not as if they're admitting only certain number of

students from Exeter and Andover who play lacrosse and, you know, volunteered five times a day and rode crew in order to admit a certain

number of black students or Latinx students from other places.

What's actually happening is that the students across the board who are admitted to these universities are the very top students. They are select.

They're all playing sports and doing a million extracurriculars and getting scores and all of these things. It's simply that.

ASHER: But there is this perception. There is this perception and it is true, Sarah, that many universities, you know, if you are, let's say if you

have two applicants that are equal and they both scored 1590 in their SATs and they both play lacrosse. I mean, America has, what, 400 million people

in it. So, it's a very competitive process and they're looking for well- rounded students.

If you have two applicants who are exactly the same, they both, you know, were the lead in their high school Shakespeare play or whatever. And one of

them is black and one of them is white, all other factors being equal, would not the ethnic minority have an advantage in this country, Sarah?

That is, I think that's what a lot of white people are saying.

CLARKE-KAPLAN: Absolutely they would in that hypothetical situation. I think my point, Zain, is that hypothetical situation doesn't exist. That in

reality, we know that when we look at race and admissions, that in the absence of affirmative action, students of color are still discriminated

against in admissions.

[12:40:00}

We know that study after study has been done that shows that, for example, when the same law student application goes in with a name that codes as

black, and a name that codes as white, and that is exactly the same, the white student in the absence of race-conscious admission is always judged

more qualified and more acceptable and more legitimate.

So, aside from the fact, if we think about, you know, the ways in which neighborhoods continue to be segregated, the ways in which things like test

scores have been shown consistently to be biased based on race in terms of outcome, the ways in which we know that there's less inherited wealth in

communities of color, which means that students are more likely to be working in high school than doing eight trillion billion extracurriculars

at the same rate. We know that it is not a playing field going in, and we know that even if it wasn't, there is still bias and discrimination.

ASHER: One of the reasons, Sarah, that I think it's not a level-playing field is because there are so many, as you point out, factors that go into

whether or not someone is accepted. I think that the legacy admissions in this country is so controversial because that is completely unfair. I mean

this idea of you are more likely to get into Harvard or Yale or Princeton just because your grandfather went there.

And so, I think a lot of people's argument is that affirmative action levels the playing field a little bit more because there are so many other

unfair reasons why people get into certain colleges if their parents donate a couple of million to build a new dormitory at Harvard, Yale or Princeton.

They obviously have an advantage when it comes to admissions process. So, is that an argument, as well? I mean if you get rid of affirmative action,

do you then also have to get rid of legacy admissions, too, just to make the playing field absolutely as fair as it can possibly be?

ASHER: I think it's more than just getting rid of legacies, though that is obviously the most up, you know, the most evident one. So, it's what we all

talk about is a LADC. So, it's athletes, it's legacies, it's people who are on the dean's list, a.k.a. connected to a donor or somebody else, even if

they're not necessarily a donor themselves, and then it's the children of faculty and staff.

And what we know is that those students make up the largest number of students given preference and admission, and that those students are

disproportionately white elites from the top 10 percent of the socioeconomic categories in the U.S.

So, in fact when we talk about a case like Harvard that is arguing where SFFA is arguing that Asian-Americans are being discriminated against

because of the admission of black and brown students, if you actually look at the rates of Asian-American students compared to white students, if you

include the legacy students, the athletes, and the dean's list students, and the children of faculty, white students who make up that category

disproportionately are being admitted at a much higher rate than Asian- Americans, that's where the problem is, not with black and browns.

ASHER: And just quickly, I mean, is there any way to make it fair to level the playing field so you have more black and brown people who obviously

have been discriminated against over many years in this country, who have that little bit of assistance but also fair for, let's say, the white

students and the Asian-Americans who are working hard and who also deserve a place, as well? Is there any way to make it fair for everybody?

CLARKE-KAPLAN: Well, I would argue that in fact, despite how we think race conscious admissions work, it is fair for everybody. I mean, I think it is

very telling that the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action have been white women. But the only category that is subjected to this level of

strict scrutiny are race-conscious admissions that target black and Latinx students.

I mean, we don't say that it's not fair that a student who was able to learn the oboe because their school happened to have an oboe teacher, and

who is applying to Harvard the year that they need a new oboist for the band gets an advantage in admissions, though they will, that is another

category that is considered.

We don't argue that, you know, students who come from Wyoming getting a better chance at admissions than students who come from LA is an unfair

thing that we should eliminate, though that is another thing that we consider. The only thing that we subject to this strict scrutiny --

ASHER: --is race.

CLARKE-KAPLAN: --under the 14th Amendment and the Civil Rights Law is race.

ASHER: Welcome to America. It's always race. Sarah Clark Kaplan, live for us.

CLARKE-KAPLAN: Yes, it is.

ASHER: Thank you so much.

CLARKE-KAPLAN: Thanks so much.

ASHER: All right, coming up, an apparent act of defiance from Pyongyang, North Korea, firing two ballistic missiles. Up next, we'll look at the

reaction sparked by the launch.

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[12:45:00]

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ASHER: The U.S., Japan and South Korea have just released a joint statement condemning North Korea's two short-range ballistic missile launches. The

missiles are believed to have landed in the waters inside Japan's exclusive economic zone. Pyongyang had previously denounced the U.S. and South

Korea's joint live-fire military drills. CNN's Paula Hancocks has the latest from Seoul.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: These two short-range ballistic missiles fired by North Korea came just hours after the state-run media had slammed

the U.S. and South Korea. Now, we read through KCNA that the Defense Ministry in Pyongyang had denounced what they called the provocations of

the enemies.

Significantly, this was the U.S.-South Korean joint military drills, joint live fire drills, which had been billed as the largest ever. It was five

separate days of these live fire drills today, this Thursday, was the end day. And it was more significant because President Yoon Suk Yeol of South

Korea attended and he said as Commander-in-Chief, he felt more confident and satisfied with what he saw. So, this appears to be what North Korea is

reacting to at this point.

Now, we went to cover one of those days earlier this month and it was certainly larger than I have seen in many years. And it was also a more

blatant message to North Korea. The scenario was that North Korea had staged what they called an illegal armed invasion and the military drill

that we then saw was the U.S. and South Korean joint reaction and counter to that invasion.

So, certainly, the messaging couldn't have been clearer to Pyongyang, and they did not appreciate it, slamming the U.S. and South Korea for carrying

out these drills. In fact, they have said this is the reason that they have carried out so many missile launches and weapons testing.

Certainly, we have seen a significant uptick in the past year and a half. And they also say that's the reason they carried out at the end of last

month an attempted satellite launch to put a military reconnaissance satellite into space. They didn't manage to do that, but they said they

will try again as soon as possible. Paula Hancock's CNN Seoul.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ASHER: All right, still to come here on One World, a grand jury weighs in on the subway chokehold case. That case sparked a lot of protest and anger

in New York City. We'll talk about it next.

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[12:50:00]

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ASHER: CNN has learned the man who killed a homeless street artist by putting him in a chokehold on a New York City subway has been indicted by a

grand jury. Daniel Penny was initially charged with second degree manslaughter when he was arrested in May. Now, the grand jury indictment

allows the case against him to move forward. Penny put Jordan Neely in a chokehold after Neely apparently began shouting at passengers on the

subway.

Penny, who is a former Marine, claims he was just protecting other passengers. CNN's Brynn Gingras is tracking this story for us. So, this

indictment by a grand jury was certainly welcome news by Neely's family members who are at this point, of course, looking for justice, Brynn.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that's crazy. And so, this means that, like you said, the case will go forward. However, we don't

know the details of that indictment. We thought possibly the Manhattan District Attorney would unseal it. However, we're learning there'll be no

comment from Alvin Bragg regarding the indictment, only that it'll move to the next phase in court, which means that Daniel Penny have to go in front

in back to court next month.

So, like you just said, this is a case that really has brought people very divided on the issues of homelessness and also crime on the subways here in

New York City. And that is because it's just raised a lot of, you know, concern about how this all went down. And you just described it to your

viewers. And there was some video of what happened on May 1st on this subway car.

That video showing -- that video showing Neely actually coming onto the train and what witnesses have told CNN is that he said he was hungry, that

he was thirsty, that he didn't care if he died and Penny actually seemed to think that this was threatening to other subway riders and to himself, took

it upon himself to restrain Neely, putting him in a chokehold, that chokehold resulting in the death -- in his death.

So, listen, this is again something that has been divided by so many people. I want you to hear from Penny himself about why he says he did

this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANIEL PENNY, DEFENDANT: I knew I had to act and I acted in a way that would protect the other passengers, protect myself and protect Mr. Neely. I

use this hole to restrain him. I didn't want to be put in that situation, but I couldn't just sit still and let, let him carry out these threats.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GINGRAS: And again, as you said, this is welcome news, though, this indictment for the Neely family.

[12:55:00]

They released a statement saying Daniel Penny didn't have the right to be the judge, jury, and executioner, but again, speaking to the divisiveness

of this case, Zain, the defense for Daniel Penny has been $2.8 million raised in a GoFundMe. So, it just, again, speaks to how people are feeling

about this case. It's going to be very interesting as it heads into the courts.

ASHER: Brynn, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

GINGRAS: Yeah.

ASHER: Environmental protesters in Sweden defaced a painting by impressionist Claude Monet, to call attention to climate change. Two women

smeared red paint and glued their hands to the protective glass over the painting at Stockholm's National Museum. The two now face charges of

aggravated vandalism. The museum is assessing the damage to the artwork.

All right, thank you so much for watching One World. I'm Zain Asher. Amanpour is up next. You're watching CNN.

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END