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One World with Zain Asher
U.N. Aid Agencies Express Alarm At The Scale Of Israel's Military Operation In Jenin; Russia Claims Shooting Down Five Ukrainian Drones Near Moscow; Gun Violence In America Turns Some Independence Day Festivities Into Tragedies; Meta Set To Launch Threads; Women's World Cup Kicks Off; Harvard Faces Complaint On Discrimination; Fierce Battles Break Out Once Again Outside Sudan's Capital; Wimbledon Honors Tennis Legend Roger Federer. Aired 12-1p ET
Aired July 04, 2023 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello. I'm Julia Chatterley live in New York, and this is ONE WORLD. U.N. aid agencies are expressing
alarm at the scale of Israel's military operation in Jenin, the largest of its kind in decades and now stretching well into its second day. The
International Committee of the Red Cross says, quote, each passing minute of this ongoing violence poses a danger to lives, homes, essential
services, and infrastructure. The death toll is also rising.
Palestinian officials say at least 10 people have been killed and almost 100 injured. Israel, meanwhile, says it's striking terrorist infrastructure
and that only fighters have been killed. It's deployed hundreds of soldiers and armed drones to dismantle what it calls a, quote, hornet's nest of
militant activity. Palestinian officials say thousands of people are fleeing in fear, some of them comparing the scenes to a natural disaster,
with electricity and water services now severely damaged.
Meanwhile, Hamas is claiming responsibility for what Israeli police are calling a terror attack when a car rammed into pedestrians at a shopping
center in Tel Aviv. Hadas Gold joins us now from outside Jerusalem. Hadas, good to have you with us. Let's just talk about the military operation in
Jenin, first. Any sign that that's nearing completion?
HADAS GOLD, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (on-camera): Well, from what we're hearing from the Israeli military, as well as Prime Minister Benjamin
Netanyahu, is that they plan to continue this operation until they believe all of their objectives have been met. Namely, they say they want to
dismantle what they call is now a safe haven for militants in Jenin.
But of course, what that means for the civilians of Jenin, as you described, is essentially a natural disaster zone. The roads are completely
plowed up. Electricity and water has been severely damaged, and plenty of houses and cars have been very severely damaged as a result of this ongoing
military operation. And thousands of people have now fled the refugee camp to try and find safer ground.
And just the last few minutes, I received further message from the IDF saying that they are still, and this is according to them, locating
explosives. Many factoring facility that they are finding more weapons, more hidden weapon shafts and saying that they have now also, at least
today, arrested a total of 13 suspects and transfer them for further questioning. So, this is still a very, very active operation. But what
we're seeing is sort of the fallout from this operation is what we saw today in Tel Aviv, a car running attack that now Hamas has taken credit
GOLD (voice-over): A car ramming attack on the streets of Tel Aviv. The attacker shot by an armed civilian. Militant group Hamas taking credit for
the attack, calling it a response to Israel's ongoing military raid in the occupied West Bank City of Jenin.
An operation already in its second day, the largest incursion into the West Bank since the days of the Second Intifada, more than 20 years ago. Israel
says its aim is to dismantle the hornet's nest Jenin has become for militants. Overnight, targeting underground tunnels used to store explosive
devices in the camp.
RICHARD HECHT, ISRAEL ARMY INTERNATIONAL SPOKESPERSON: We're focused mainly on dismantling terrorist infrastructure and handling and seizing guns that
are in this camp.
GOLD (voice-over): Scenes of destruction as bulldozers ripped up roads to disable IEDs, damaged cars and homes. Inside the camp, streets are empty.
Thousands of residents evacuating their homes overnight. International aid groups accused Israeli forces of blocking access to medical care in Jenin.
And firing tear gas near hospitals, the IDF refuting those claims, saying ambulances have a free pass.
Palestinian officials condemning the raid, calling it a new war crime and saying they will suspend contact with Israel. A general strike in
solidarity with Jenin has been called in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Meanwhile, Palestinian militant groups calling for action to strike Israel
by all available means. And while Israel makes it clear, it doesn't want the operation to go on longer than necessary, the cycle of violence only
GOLD (on-camera): And Julia, the question now is whether what is happening in Jenin will spill over further. The Israeli military is saying that they
are still very much focused only on the Jenin refugee camp and don't plan for this to become a broader operation, but that has yet to be seen about
whether the militants will feel the same way. Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Certainly, Hadas, and I wanted to ask you, because you were just there in Tel Aviv in the aftermath of that car attack. What are
officials there saying about the risk perhaps of further reprisals and whether they've stepped up security in light of that attack?
GOLD: Yeah, we asked actually the Israeli police spokespersons specifically about that and they didn't indicate that there's any sort of extra special
measures being taken by Israeli police in Israeli cities in anticipation or perhaps in fear of any further such attack. Despite the fact that the Hamas
militant group almost as soon as this Israeli operation got underway in Jenin had called on all of its cells, they said to strike Israel wherever
So, there was almost the expectation of something happening and now Hamas has taken credit for this ramming attack. But Israeli Police saying that
they are always on a heightened state of alert and that they are ready to respond whenever necessary.
CHATTERLEY: Hadas Gold there for us. Thank you so much for that report. Now, Russia claims it shot down five Ukrainian drones near Moscow in what
it's calling an attempted terrorist attack. No one was injured, but Moscow's mayor says some flights were diverted at one of the city's
airports because of the alleged attack. The airport is now operating as normal.
Matthew Chance is in Milius in Lithuania with the details for us. Matthew, just another episode, I think, that underscores the ability of attackers to
at target the Kremlin if not directly strike.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that's right. Well, at least strike kind of infrastructure that it's related to the
Kremlin. I mean the Foreign Ministry, the Defense Ministry have come out and said this was an attempted terrorist attack against civilian
But within the past few hours or so, the emergency services in Russia, in Moscow, have admitted that there may have been a military, you know, sort
of target there, or a military bit of infrastructure that was possibly hit by one of the drones in total. Four of them, according to the Russian
defense ministry, were shot down by air defense systems. Another one was jammed with electronic warfare techniques.
But you know, you're right, when you add this to the series of events that have been taking place in Russia over the past couple of months, the
military uprising, last month, the various drone attacks that have taken place in May, with the strike against, most spectacularly, against the
Kremlin back in early May.
And, of course, the incursions into Russian territory from the Ukrainian border, from across the Ukrainian border, then you really get a sense of
how much this conflict in Ukraine, which of course Russia calls its special military operation, is having a real impact at home, if you like, in Russia
CHATTERLEY: But look at the events that we've seen in the recent week and a half, and then look at the calendar and the importance of the Black Sea
grain deal, which, when now in July expires, I believe on the 17th of this month. What's Russia saying about the prospects for an extension and
perhaps what they might demand in order to bring them to the table and agree this?
CHANCE: Yeah, well, that's obviously an ongoing negotiation and an ongoing grievance by the Russians. They're saying every time this grain deal comes
up for renewal, they say they're not going to renew it. They say that it's not being properly implemented by the other side. And of course, Russia
wants more sanctions relief, you know, more ability to export its products to international markets, as well, that have been severely curtailed by the
fact there's been an international coalition imposing sanctions on Russia.
But, you know, so far, the grain deal, even though it sort of hangs by a thread, has so far been renewed by the Russians. And, you know, I don't
know whether the expectation is that it will this time, but certainly the hope is that it will this time, certainly in parts of the world that are so
dependent on food supplies from Russia and Ukraine to make sure their people are fed.
CHATTERLEY: Yeah, absolutely. Matthew Chance, thank you so much for that. And Vladimir Putin trying to protect an image of strength during a virtual
meeting of leaders friendly to Moscow. The Russian President's address at the Shanghai Cooperation Organization Summit marks his first appearance on
the world stage since the Wagner rebellion. He thanked Russian allies in attendance for backing him.
Chinese President Xi Jinping also spoke warning against other countries inciting a new cold war in the region, as CNN's Marc Stewart reports.
MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Even though this conference is being hosted by India's prime minister, China still has a significant role in the
Shanghai Cooperation Organization, otherwise known as SCO. It's a founding member, along with Russia and several former Soviet states. We heard from
Chinese leader Xi Jinping during an address to the summit, Xi brought up themes of unity and cooperation, calling for regional leaders to take care
of their country's futures, an apparent bid to resist outside influence in the region.
He talked about chaos in the world, bringing up questions like peace or conflict, cooperation or confrontation, calling for win-win cooperation. Xi
added, policies need to be focused on the long-term interests of the region. But this is a challenging time for China. It's been leaning on the
West at times to encourage investment at a time when its economy is facing significant challenges.
In addition, China hasn't condemned Russia's involvement in the war in Ukraine, with one analyst telling CNN, she doesn't want the nation to
become a bigger target of NATO than it already was before the war. Marc Stewart, CNN, Tokyo.
CHATTERLEY: Ukraine's President sending his best wishes for Independence Day in America. In a tweeted video, Volodymyr Zelenskyy congratulated the
American people on the fourth of July. He also thanked U.S. leaders and their citizens for supporting Ukraine and for, in his words, quote, the
unwavering commitment to protect our common ideals of freedom and democracy.
But as America is celebrating its Independence Day, the gun violence is turning some festivities into tragedies. People were sent scrambling at a
block party in Baltimore over the weekend when multiple gunmen opened fire. By the time the shooting was over, two people had been killed, 28 others
were injured. The suspects remain at large.
Philadelphia Police are trying to figure out why a man with a bulletproof vest and an AR-15 rifle shot and killed five people and injured two others
on Monday night. And in Fort Worth, Texas, a gunman attacked a large Independence Day party Monday night leaving three people dead and eight
others injured. CNN's Ed Lavandera is in Fort Worth for us. Ed, what more do we know about who the shooter was in this case and what any potential
motive may have been?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's what investigators are trying to figure out if this was the work of just one
person or multiple gunmen. We are at the scene of the shooting which right now is the site of a very typical 4th of July neighborhood parade here in
the United States. This is an area in southwest Fort Worth.
And it was just in this area last night where there were hundreds of people in a much more chaotic kind of a street party, if you will, fireworks going
off that people were launching in the street, cars spinning out as people, you know, kind of lined the streets. It was very chaotic. Several witnesses
told us that all of that was happening. And all of a sudden, they started hearing the gunfire, and people started running for their lives.
MIKE VALLE, SHOOTING WITNESS: Everybody was right here, and there was just popping fireworks, like doing burnouts and stuff. And then there was a lot
of gunfire that just started ringing out. And then everybody just started running everywhere.
LAVANDERA: And Julie, as you mentioned, 11 people shot and all three of those victims were -- died. Now, the two witnesses that we've spoken with,
who were here last night running from the scene said they believed they heard somewhere between 30 and 40 shots fired and that they believe
multiple people were firing their weapons. Police have still not made any arrests in this case, and they still haven't been able to pinpoint exactly
if this was the work of one gunman or multiple people firing or what the motives might have been.
So, a lot of investigative work still needs to be done here. We're waiting for investigators to share whatever they've been able to learn, so far. But
this is the scene here, you know, just about 12 hours after that shooting scene here unfolded. It is now the site of a very typical fourth of July
neighborhood parade here in the United States.
CHATTERLEY: I think, Ed, that part of this, for me, will be most extraordinary to our viewers. That just 12 hours after what you're
describing, the show goes on and then the fourth of July parade takes place. I heard you speaking about this earlier and talking to someone who
suggested that they'd seen a similar shooting around this time a couple of years ago, too. Just describe that. Is that true?
LAVANDERA: Yeah, so it sounds like the night before July 4th, so the night of July 3rd in this particular neighborhood has turned into a very kind of
festive street party scene. Nothing organized, it's definitely much more chaotic. It's nothing like what you're seeing unfolding here behind me. And
that the crowds that gathered last night, several other people had told us that it was some of the biggest crowds that they had seen gathered out here
on the night before July fourth.
Two years ago, there was an argument that erupted during that street party and shots were fired. Eight people were wounded in that. No one was killed.
But now fast forward to last night, two years later, a similar event playing out here. And it's definitely something that residents here, Julia,
tell us that they're aware of.
In fact, one of the witnesses we spoke with say, you know, they've really kind of felt things starting to get out of control. And one of his friends
had said, you know, you've got to be careful. This is kind of what happened several years ago.
CHATTERLEY: Yeah, it should be such a time of celebration and yet it's that sort of cloud overlay of caution especially when you've got children there,
as well. Ed, thank you for that report of Lavendera there. Okay, turning now to some business news and what's shaping up to be a social media
Meta, the parent company of Facebook, set to launch a new app called Threads on Thursday. It's expected to be a direct rival of Twitter, which
has had a number of recent struggles since Elon Musk bought the company and before, Anna Stewart joins us now live in London. Not the first challenger,
let's be clear, to Twitter, but certainly the biggest in terms of established audience from the get-go.
ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER: Yeah, we get a lot of copycats from big social media companies, from challenger start-ups. This one though, does feel a
little bit different for two key reasons. I mean, Instagram already has more than two billion monthly active users, so a huge user base here. And
then you can couple that with the fact that the timing for this seems pretty good given Twitter's undergoing something of a transformation under
Not everyone thinks it's going particularly well. Whether it was bringing back people that were banned from the platform for misinformation and hate
speech. Whether it was removing blue ticks and asking people to pay for them, or just over the weekend where we saw that big outage and limitations
on how many tweets people can see, again without paying for a subscription.
Frankly, right now, Twitter users may well be ripe for the picking. So yes, while this is just another version of Twitter, I think this one really does
have some sort of, I don't know, I'd be worried if I were Elon Musk. But let's put it that way.
CHATTERLEY: I'm not sure he does worry, in this regard.
STEWART: No, but I would be.
CHATTERLEY: Yeah, quite frankly. Although, to be fair, and you and I were talking about this on "First Move" earlier, Zuckerberg's sort of had a
master class in what not to do with Twitter and these social media platforms, particularly over perhaps the last six months.
So, there is something to learn from that. Trust, for me, and we should talk about this again for a different audience, because I do believe that
when you're sort of picking between these two platforms, whether it's give your data and access to or simply what you see and utilize on the site in
terms of content. It's sort of interesting questions to be asked about whether you can trust Meta and Facebook given what we've seen in the past.
STEWART: And I think for Twitter, if they want to mount a defense, and we had it from the founder of Twitter on Twitter, tweeting of course --
CHATTERLEY: Of course.
STEWART: But I think in the armor for Meta may well be this issue of trust because they're in short supply of it and have been really ever since that
big fallout from the Cambridge Analytica scandal. As the CTO once told me about a year ago, you know, trust arrives on foot and it leaves on
horseback. It takes a really long time to earn it back.
The only thing I would say that is perhaps in Instagram and Meta's favor here is the fact that they're trying to use the users who are already on
Instagram. So, yes, while more of a user's data may well be accessed by Meta through Threads than is accessed by Twitter, many of the users have
already accepted that level of data use from Meta at this stage. So, it's an interesting argument, but I do think trust is an important one,
regardless on all of these social media platforms.
CHATTERLEY: Anna, very quickly, what was that quote again? I'm gonna use it.
STEWART: Oh, "Trust arrives on foot and it leaves on horseback." That was from the season of --
CHATTERLEY: "Galloping Away". Exactly. Thank you. Fantastic. Anna Stewart, thank you. Okay, coming up, Senegal's President makes a surprise decision
aimed at keeping calm in his country. Why, his opponents believe it's not enough. As tens of thousands flee the fighting, too, between two warring
factions in Sudan. We'll take a closer look at the situation where experts warn of impending genocide in Darfur.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to ONE WORLD. The Women's World Cup in Australia and New Zealand kicks off this month. And while every player has had to
overcome adversity to make it to this stage, there's one player whose journey has been particularly challenging, as our Paula Hancocks reports.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Park Eun Seon is used to breaking records. From being the youngest South Korean women's
soccer player to play in a World Cup, aged just 17 back in 2003, 20 years later she may become one of the oldest at 36.
PARK EUN SEON, SOUTH KOREAN SOCCER PLAYER (through translator): If I get to go to the World Cup, even if I play one minute or 10, I'll do my best. I
haven't scored a World Cup goal yet, so I have to score.
HANCOCKS (voice-over): Nursing an injury, Park is confident of being match- ready in time, acknowledging she has overcome greater challenges than this. In 2013, when Park became the top scorer of the season, coaches from rival
clubs questioned her gender, insisting she underwent gender testing, which she did. Previously participating in the Olympics and World Cup.
It was a controversy the National Human Rights Commission called, quote, sexual harassment. Park spoke at the time of being upset and ashamed. The
coaches later claimed their comments had been a joke.
PARK (through translator): I wasn't angry but a bit puzzled. I wondered why I had to go through all that. At the time I thought frequently about
quitting soccer. But felt in doing so would be like me admitting their claims.
HANCOCKS: Park says she played soccer with the boys in her neighborhood as a child, but only started training in her second year of middle school when
her P.E. teacher suggested it.
JEON HAE-RIM, KOREA WOMEN'S FOOTBALL CLUB FEDERATION: Already as a middle schooler, she had extraordinary speed, extraordinary strength and
extraordinary physique. It's not easy to play soccer as a woman. We have to overcome a lot of prejudice. Seeing Park come through the tough times
really meant a lot.
HANCOCKS (on-camera): South Korea ranks 17th in the world going into this World Cup, its first match against Colombia on July 25th. Now, what Park
says is her main focus now is to ensure that her country makes it through to the knockout stages. Paula Hancocks, CNN Seoul.
CHATTERLEY: Senegal's President has made a surprising decision that will likely clear the way for open elections in the West African nation.
President Macky Sall announced he will not seek a third term, which some critics say would have been illegal. There was concerns he would use a
constitutional revision to bypass the country's two-term limit. It's something the president says was within his rights to do.
MACKY SALL, PRESIDENT OF SENEGAL (through translator): My dear compatriots, my decision, long and carefully considered, is not to be a candidate in the
next election on February 25th, 2024, even though the Constitution gives me the right to do so. I know that my decision not to stand as a candidate
will come as a surprise to the many people whose sincere admiration, trust and loyalty I know. Senegal is bigger than I am, and it's full of leaders
equally capable of pushing the country towards emergence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: His political opponents say it was their pro-democracy protest that prompted his decision. But President Sall's supporters call it an
honorable thing to do.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN (through translator): You have to respect your word and it's this respect that has led us to this situation. From now on, he will be highly
respected internationally. He did what he could for Senegal. His act is noble, and he acted as a respectable person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: Chief, among his opponents is Ousmane Sonko. He was jailed for two years over an alleged rape, which would stop him from running in next
year's election. Sonko's supporters call the sentence politically motivated that sparked violent clashes with police that claimed at least 16 lives.
Let's bring in Borso Tall, who's a freelance journalist based in Senegal. Borso, great to have you on the show with us. Are you surprised by this
decision and do you see it as the honorable thing to do?
BORSO TALL, FREELANCE JOURNALIST: Thank you so much for having me. Could you please repeat the question?
CHATTERLEY: I can. I asked you whether you're surprised by the President's decision not to run for a third term.
TALL: Okay, it seems that it's a surprise and not a surprise at the same time. The reason why it would be a surprise is that the --
CHATTERLEY: Struggling to hear you. So, I'm gonna stop you there. I don't want to waste your time and put my viewers through torment trying to hear
what you're saying and we will get you back to get your views on this. Thank you so much for joining us.
All right, we're going to take a quick break. This is what happens with live TV. Coming up, less than a week after the U.S. Supreme Court gutted
affirmative action, a new complaint claims Harvard University is giving preferential treatment to some other applicants. Stay with us for the
CHATTERLEY: Hello and welcome back to ONE WORLD with a look at some of today's headlines. French President Emmanuel Macron says he thinks the peak
of the urban violence has now passed but will stay cautious. President Macron is promising his full support to mayors from the areas hardest hit
during the week of violent protests, riots and looting. This following the deadly police shooting of a 17-year-old boy after a traffic stop.
Terrential rain left this couple trapped in floodwaters in China and it led to a dramatic rescue caught on camera. Emergency crews spent three hours
working to free the couple. In the end, they used a drone to get rope and life jackets to them, then dragged them to the riverbank.
And the U.K. is feeling the heat this summer. They endured record-breaking temperatures last month. Britain's Met Office says June was the hottest
it's been since forecasters began tracking temperatures back in 1884. The average of 15.8 degrees Celsius was almost a full degree higher than the
And Harvard University is facing a discrimination complaint just days after the US Supreme Court ruling that, for the most part, ended affirmative
action in higher education. Three civil rights groups are challenging Harvard over legacy admissions. That's the practice of giving preferential
treatment to children of wealthy donors and alumni. The new complaint says the students granted legacy admission are overwhelmingly white and make up
as much as 15 percent of those who are admitted.
Athena Jones is live in New York for us. Athena, good to have you with us. The message in this is that if you want to level the playing field and make
admissions all about merit, then being connected, I guess, shouldn't automatically buy you a place.
ATHENA JONES, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi Julia, that's exactly right. This is all about how to define merit. And one of -- the Executive
Director of the group that helped these three -- the organization that helped these three groups, these black and Latino groups, bring this
complaint against Harvard says that, look, your family's last name and the size of their bank account is not a measure of merit and shouldn't be part
of this process.
And now that the Supreme Court has severely restricted the use of race in college admissions, these groups argue that it's now even more impaired to
eliminate any kind of policy that disadvantages students of color. They argue that this -- giving preferential treatment to these legacy
applicants, people who have a parent or relative who went to Harvard or someone who's related to a donor that that is discriminatory and that
advantages mostly white applicants and disadvantages applicants of color.
They say that, look, these -- a district court has found the kind of preferences they give to legacy applicants to be sizable and significant.
It's all spelled out in the numbers that are included in the complaint. For instance, they show us that in the class of 2026, just under 2000
applicants were accepted out of a pool of over 61,000. That is an admission rate of just over three percent. So, that's extremely low.
But it's very different if you are related to a donor or if your parent or relative went to Harvard. For those related to donors, the acceptance rate
was seven times higher, so, about 42 percent. Those related to a parent or relative who went to Harvard, six times more likely to be admitted. That's
a rate of about 33 percent. And those during this period that they were looking at from 2014 to 2019, those who didn't have any kind of connections
like that, their acceptance rate was six percent.
So, we're talking about acceptance rates all over the board and the bottom line being that these groups argue that Harvard needs to -- that Harvard
needs to end this process. And if they do get rid of these sorts of preferences, then you're going to see admissions go higher for black
students, Latino students, and Asian-American students by four to five percent. And admissions rates decrease by about four percent for white
CHATTERLEY: Yeah, I hope that was Harvard calling up to give their view on the subject.
JONES: They are not responding right now to this question.
CHATTERLEY: I was about to say, yes, I'm sure. We can assume it wasn't them. I guess -- and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess the
counter to this would be that if they do take action on this and decide perhaps to level the playing field, and we may take it all about merit
again as we discussed, then perhaps donations will suffer, and then the subsidies that they perhaps give to poorer students, for example, may also
suffer. Is that a valid response in the face of what the Supreme Court has chosen to do, or if we want to level the playing field, then all bets are
JONES: I mean, I think it's probably a likely part of the argument that perhaps donations will suffer. There's been some data about this, but I'll
tell you one thing.
This complaint spells out several other university systems or universities that have made this move, that have stopped giving preferential treatment
to legacies, among them Johns Hopkins University, the University of California system, Amherst in Massachusetts, and higher ed public
institutions in Colorado. And there are others who make the argument that they're not really going to be hurt that much by not giving this special
treatment to donors.
But that's certainly part of the argument that you might expect Harvard to make. When it comes to this specific complaint, they declined to respond,
but they kind of piggybacked on what they said last week when the Supreme Court struck down using race and admissions mainly, or in a major way.
And they said, look, we're going to try to do what we can to both comply with the ruling, but also honor our values, which one of the big values
that Harvard talks about is trying to have a diverse student body. They argue that students are better prepared if their learning environment is
much more diverse.
Now, it's hard to understand what argument they would make in terms of an educational reason to give the benefit to children or relatives of alumni
and donors and so, that is kind of what this is all about. What is merit? Who decides? How should it be determined? And if you get rid of preferences
for certain races, shouldn't you also do so for some of these other preferences that are so common?
CHATTERLEY: Yeah, I'd call that a swerve on the connected student response. Athena Jones, thank you so much for that. We'll be right back with more.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to ONE WORLD. Fierce battles broke out once again today just outside Sudan's capital. Since the conflict began in April
between the army and the Rapid Support Forces paramilitary group, a string of ceasefires have failed. The fighting has displaced more than 2.8 million
people, according to the United Nations, and more than 600,000 have fled the country.
Now, while the RSF has been fighting for control of Sudan and its capital, Khartoum, it's been accused of waging a separate war in the western region
of Darfur. The Janjaweed militia from which the RSF was formed was accused of genocide almost 20 years ago. And now experts are warning about the
possibility of another genocide, echoing the ethnic violence that started back in 2003.
Time now for The Exchange. Our next guest says people in Darfur are in an existential peril.
Mukesh Kapila joins us now live from Geneva, Switzerland. He's a Former U.N. Resident and Humanitarian Coordinator in Sudan. Mukesh, good to have
you with us. Thank you so much for your time. I want to tap into your first-hand experience of being in Sudan in 2003 and raising your voice and
saying that you believed you saw genocide at that moment. And you also paid a professional price for raising your voice. Do you see parallels today in
what we're seeing in Darfur compared to what you saw in 2003?
MUKESH KAPILA, FMR. U.N. RESIDENT AND HUMANITARIAN COORDINATOR IN SUDAN: I'm afraid so. I think because we did not complete the chapter on genocide
20 years ago That chapter never really closed and is now taking on a new life of its own. And it's because many of the actors involved, both
perpetrators and the victims are the same. And with techniques which have only been altered because we are more modern technology available compared
to 20 years ago.
CHATTERLEY: So, you're saying in fact that the international community didn't learn lessons from that era. They took too long to listen, too long
to respond. And you are now saying that the players, the RSF or the military in Sudan, the forces there rose to prominence during that period
and are still there. The old rules still apply.
KAPILA: Well, what happened 20 years ago, which for me is just the blink of one's eye is that by the time the world reacted through U.N. Security
Council resolutions, peacekeepers on the ground and the referral to the International Criminal Court and indictments followed, including that of
the head of state, which was a historic event at the time that it happened, it was the genocide in Darfur was almost more or less complete as it
applied then. So, it was doing too little, too late.
And then, but because the world thought, oh, well, now we've done it, it kind of forgot about Sudan and started dealing and doing business with the
rulers, which hadn't changed in the country and for economic reasons as well as for political reasons, other things are going on in the wider
geopolitics of time.
So, in a sense, we just forgot about Darfur. So now, if you fast forward to today, we see that the Janjaweed of those times that I did battle with in a
kind of political sense, are now called the RSF. They don't come on horses and camels anymore. They've got modern vehicles to bring. They don't --
borne from the sky with petrol bombs but we have a much more sophisticated ways of destroying the infrastructure in Darfur.
And we find that the black people of Darfur, those who identify themselves as coming from African origin are being specifically targeted by the
command and control of the paramilitary forces that are in charge of the whole region. And the region, by the way, is the size of France. So, we are
not talking about a small corner of Sudan. It's a very significant chunk of the overall territory. And as you said, by the way, that while all the
different theaters of conflict are connected, what is going on in Darfur is in addition to and what is going on in Khartoum, on which everyone has been
CHATTERLEY: I think your point is that it's a trigger for it, but they should be separated. And perhaps the danger once again is that we focus on
the violence that we see in the capital in Khartoum, and we don't focus enough on what you're effectively saying is, genocide, an ongoing genocide
KAPILA: Yes, I think, you know, focusing Khartoum is fine. You know, what's happened in the 20 years subsequently is that Khartoum has become a much
more urbanized city. And what we're seeing there in the twin cities of Khartoum area is very modern warfare going on, urbanized, you know, a bit
like what's happening in Ukraine. You could compare because we're living in urbanized countries.
Sudan today is not the Sudan of 20 years ago. It has developed a lot. And so, the people who are caught up in Khartoum, they are really getting bad
about it. And I'm here not trying to compare the relative miseries of one of Darfuris versus those living in Khartoum, but simply to add that the
genocide that I think is unfolding again in Darfur is happening in that region.
You're not talking about genocide in Sudan. You're not talking about genocide in Khartoum. It's very important to be precise. And I think this
is linked entirely to the issues of justice and accountability. That's why I feel very pessimistic about current peace efforts, which are about doing
shabby deals between the heads of the army and the paramilitary. And these are the ones, by the way, involved in the vicious crimes against humanity
of genocidal nature are just by the International Criminal Court 20 years ago.
And today we are trying to do deals with them to bring about peace. Well, it's going to fail. The shabby deals don't work. And you can see this
already. Nearly three million people are displaced. And I would predict that those numbers are going to double over the course of the next month or
CHATTERLEY: And just for balance, I will say that the RSF have said that they aren't killing civilians, just to represent their side this moment, as
well. To your point, I think, and you've made it quite carefully, that we have seen efforts to find some kind of compromise, a ceasefire. Saudi
Arabia, the United States have tried, those efforts have failed.
You were writing about the conflict in conversation.com and you said the international community's pragmatic response is about quick fixes rather
than tackling the underlying systemic problems. And self-interest comes into play. Sudan's oil, the agriculture riches, the minerals. What's the
danger, the deal making to get access to those kind of things prevents a more broad, comprehensive, life-saving solution here, Mukesh? And what's
the cost in terms of lives if we don't reach that?
KAPILA: I think if we continue down the road of shabby, unprincipled political deal-making, or worse still, trying to maneuver to get economic
advantage in the future when the strife is over, then the peace and stability will only be temporary phenomena. So, we already know that many
global parties have their own sides in this particular conflict. Some support the military side and others support the RSF side. So that, I
think, is a problem.
Now, the only solution to this is to actually tackle the underlying causes, and that means not immediate causes alone, which are about the contestation
about what type of democracy you want and when you want the democracy to happen. But you've got to square history. You've got to go back and get
justice and accountability done, including those who have committed atrocities in the past and who are riding to genocide again.
CHATTERLEY: Yeah, and it's still active today. Mukesh, thank you for your thoughts and wisdom today. Mukesh Kapila there.
KAPILA: Thank you.
CHATTERLEY: We'll be right back with more. Stay with us.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to ONE WORLD. Tennis legend Roger Federer was honored at Wimbledon today. Federer received a rousing ovation on Centre
Court on day two of the tournament. He's a legend for a reason. Federer racked up 20 Grand Slam wins, including eight at Wimbledon alone. He
retired from professional tennis last year, but he's kept busy working with his foundation and of course, raising a family. CNN's Christina Macfarlane
spoke exclusively with Roger Federer and she joins us now.
What a great conversation you had and I thought I loved him before as an amazing sports star but wow, what a great person, too, with a big heart as
his philanthropy shows.
CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah, you know we were so lucky, as well, Julia, to have so much time with him 30 minutes, in fact. We've discussed
everything from his philanthropy to the fun that he's been having over the last nine months. You know, I don't think you know, wherever you stand on
the goat debate the grace of all time for so many tennis fans Roger Federer will always still be the number one because of the way he played the game
with flair, with fashion, with style, with emotion.
You'll remember, Julia, those emotional scenes nine months ago when he retired at the Laver Cup, floods of tears on the court alongside Rafael
Nadal. But we haven't heard much from him since then and as I say I had a chance to really talk in depth with him about various topics. He told me
that you know he didn't really miss his old tennis life because he knew that his body wasn't up to the rigors of tour life anymore and that the
thing he enjoyed most now was planning ahead for special moments with his friends and family.
And last month in particular, he took this very special trip to Lesotho in Southern Africa to show his four children his charitable work. And I think
what many people don't realize about Roger Federer is that he is as much a major philanthropist as he is tennis legend on the court.
In 2003, 20 years ago when he won his first grand slam at Wimbledon, that was the spark that set off the Roger Federer Foundation. It represents two
sides of him. South Africa was just where his mother is from. Switzerland which is where his father is from. And he talked to me about wanting to
spark the fire within his children for charitable work in order to continue this very important legacy. Take a listen.
MACFARLANE: To date, you have helped 2.5 million children across six countries in Southern Africa and of course in Switzerland. And I know you
recently traveled to Lesotho for the first time.
ROGER FEDERER; SWISS TENNIS PLAYER: Yeah, so, that trip obviously was as any trip into the field is always very special for me, but this one was
extra special because it was the first time that all four children could join, my wife and my mom, as well. So, we had the best time. We were there
for three, four days and travelling through Lesotho, a country I've never been to before.
It's also the last country that has been part of our countries that we support in early childhood education. They're part since 2020. So, when we
got there, for me, it was less a trip for me, but more for me a trip for the kids, right, so it was more catered towards them so they could play
with their kids at the, you know, at the schools and run around and play catch and you know, play with a ball and read to one another. It was so
much fun, honestly, to see this as a dad and hoping that I can spark the fire for, you know, charitable work for my children, I think was very
special. So, it was a great trip.
MACFARLANE: Obviously, you played tennis with the children. You were sitting in the courtyard reading them books, but you were also sitting down
with the teachers and talking to them about the value of giving children responsibility.
FEDERER: Yeah, I mean, I think it's very important to be hands-on and seeing the confidence grow in them and just to listen, that is actually
working what we're trying to implement, you know. And at the end of the day, like you said, you have to give them the power.
MACFARLANE: I was so struck, Julia, by how hands-on he is, you know, with his charity work. Clearly with four children of his own, he is a natural
with children. And as part of this wider interview, we had some really fun exchanges about how he has been spending his time with his children over
the last nine months, all of whom apparently now are playing tennis. So, watch this space.
CHATTERLEY: Oh my goodness. There's definitely a Wimbledon star there somewhere. Awesome interview, Christina. And what a great human. Christina
McFarlane there. Thank you.
Now, an elite Ethiopian runner appeared to be on the road to victory in Atlanta, Georgia today when she made a costly mistake.
Senbere Teferi took a wrong turn just ahead of the finish line in the world-renowned peach tree road race. It happened when the police motorcycle
ahead of her turned off course and so she did the same. She realized her error but it was too late. The two runners behind her crossed the finish
line first, leaving Teferi in third place. She won the race last year and was considered this year's favorite. Good luck next year. We blame the
Now, just moments ago, a fourth of July tradition in the United States that's fun to watch but brutal to think about. Miki Sudo won her ninth
straight women's title at Nathan's hotdog eating contest. She gobbled down, wait for it, 39 and a half hot dogs and buns, you can't skip the buns, in
just 10 minutes. Yuck. Sudo apologized to the crowd for finishing well short of her record 48 and a half hotdogs in 10 minutes. Wowzers.
Meanwhile, the men's contest has been delayed by the weather. Joey Chestnut is the overwhelming favorite to win his 16th career title. The winner gets
$10,000 and the mustard yellow championship belt. I think I'd want more than $10,000 to eat all of those. Yuck. Okay, thank you for watching ONE
WORLD. I'm Julia Chatterley. Amanpour is up next. Stay with CNN.