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One World with Zain Asher
People All Over the World Feel The Impact Of Climate Change; Russian Attacks On Ukraine Appear To Be Increasing After NATO Summit; Mystery Deepens Surrounding Fate Of Wagner Group; Hollywood Actors' Union Go On Strike; Kevin Spacey Cross-Examined Over Sexual Offenses Allegations; Russian Duma Approves A Bill Banning Gender Reassignment Surgery And Medical Help For Transgender People; U.S. State Department Says Top Diplomat Raised Concerns About Hacking With China; India Shoots For The Moon With A Historic Mission That Could Cement Its Position As A Space Power. Aired 12-1p ET
Aired July 14, 2023 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: Extreme heat warnings across Europe are causing famous tourist destinations to close. Here is what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: The heat is very intense. And there's a lot of people. Hopefully no one will suffer any illness.
ASHER: Greek authorities closed down the Acropolis in Athens as the globe sees record-breaking heat. Plus --
UNKNOWN: We know it's a critical time at this point in the industry and the issues that are involved need to be addressed. They're difficult
ASHER: For the first time since the 1960s, both Hollywood writers and actors are on strike at the same time. You'll hear their demands. And later
this hour, we're going to be speaking to the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Kareem Khan, who's joining me live on the
show in about half an hour from now as the ICC opens an investigation into alleged war crimes in Darfur, Sudan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: Hello, everyone. I'm Zain Asher New York and this is ONE WORLD. All right, for years we have heard warnings about the dangers of global
warming. Today, in many parts of the world, people are actually feeling the impact of climate change in terrifying ways. You've got a brush fire
scorching a village in Croatia.
Meantime in Athens, Greek officials have closed down the ancient Acropolis, which, by the way, sits on a hill, so therefore it doesn't offer much in
the way of shade. Italy has issued extreme heat warnings in 15 cities. And the record for Europe's hottest temperature could fall in Sicily or
Sardinia in the U.S. There is talk all the time that the planetary heat record could be breached in the scalding California desert known as Death
We are covering this story in multiple locations. You've got CNN's Ed Lavandera in the southern part of the U.S. in Dallas, Texas. We've got
Barbie Nadeau in scorching, Rome, where it is boiling. Barbie, are you still by the Coliseum? How hard is it there?
BARBIE NADEAU, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, it is 38 degrees Celsius, we've been told here by the Coliseum. But there are still so many
tourists out there waiting to get in, so many tour groups, big groups of people, you know, not wanting to miss their chance to see this beautiful
city. The worst of it though is that what we're seeing is this prediction for temperature.
Today is going to be the coolest day out of the next five. It's just going to get worse and worse and worse until next Wednesday. And so, you know,
tourists are here. They're not going to change their plans. They've planned these trips in advance. So, they're going to have to find ways to cope with
it. The city of Rome offers free water, not much shade though, Zain.
ASHER: I'm so glad you found a tree. So, you do have a little bit of shade, I think. Barbie Nadeau, thank you. And let me bring you in. So, from
what I understand, it's about 92 degrees Fahrenheit in Dallas, Texas right now, but it actually feels much more like a hundred. How are you doing? How
are you coping?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR U.S. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we can show you. We'll start off on a light note. I want to show you the smartest
people in the entire state of Texas are the ones you see behind me playing in this popular fountain of this popular park in downtown Dallas. And this
is the way many people are kind of trying to manage the situation here where we have been under an unrelenting heat wave for days now.
And as you look across the country here in the United States from Florida all the way to California, this has been gripped by some really serious
weather. Just, you know, there are almost a hundred million people under heat advisories and warnings across the country here throughout the day.
There have been areas that have seen 900 heat records set in the month of July. And this weekend, forecasters are expecting another 100 records or so
to possibly be set.
So, that really kind of speaks to just how intense this heat wave has been. And here in Texas and Oklahoma, just to the north of us, we saw some of the
highest heat index levels in the entire country. Temperatures well over 100 degrees, 44 degrees Celsius in some cases.
So, very dangerous and treacherous situations. And leave it to the wisdom of an 11-year-old to kind of put into words what everyone is feeling right
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: It feels like if hot sauce could be felt without you having to taste it. Like, and it got poured on my back. I would love to enjoy some
time outside without getting wet, like just riding bikes and stuff. But every time I try to go out, I get tired really fast because of the sun. And
I just, I'm like, okay, I got to go in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAVANDERA: And Zain, the hottest place on Earth is in California, an area known as Death Valley in the deserts of California. This weekend,
temperatures could reach there 130 degrees Fahrenheit, 54 degrees Celsius. That is a temperature that has only been reached five times in 110 years of
ASHER: Yeah, the 11-year-old put it perfectly. It is like feeling hot sauce on your back. Barbie, let me bring you in, because what I understand,
the Italian government has issued red alerts in multiple cities across Italy, including Rome, Florence, etc. What does it mean for tourists?
Because obviously, these vacations that people have are planned months and months in advance. They can't reschedule them. You just pointed out that
actually, this is going to be the coolest day in Rome out of the next five. What do tourists do with that?
NADEAU: Yeah, you know, I mean the tourists that we, you know -- it's kind of zombie land around here at this time of the day late in the afternoon.
We've seen a lot of tourists just say, enough, I'm going back to the hotel. You know, air conditioning is -- isn't that popular in a city like Rome.
Even hotels have it, but you just have to close it, turn it off while you're out seeing the sights. So, there's not a lot of relief.
But the tourists that we've talked to are all going to stick it out because they want to see Rome. You know, Rome is a once in a lifetime opportunity
for a lot of people. And so, they're going to stick it out. We've seen the city really, really try to get people to go to museums during the hottest
part of the day. But we're seeing a lot of people here at the Coliseum, at the Spanish Steps, at the Trevi Fountain, you know, hordes and hordes of
Of course, you can't jump into any of these fountains or these beautiful places. You risk a very expensive fine. But it's got to be tempting, I'll
tell you. It's just, it's really incredible. You know, Rome is always hot in the summer. That's not a surprise. But this is unbelievably hot. Zain.
ASHER: Yes, you're absolutely right. I just saw images there of the Trevi Fountain, and the thought that crossed my mind, I wonder whether people
would be tempted to jump in. Barbie Nadeau, live for us there. Thank you so much. Ed Lavendera, thank you both.
ASHER: All right, Russian attacks on Ukraine appear to be increasing just days after a key NATO Summit that focused heavily on providing Kyiv with
long-term military aid. Ukraine claims its forces shot down 23 enemy drones overnight. But a regional official says the southeastern city of Kryvryi
Rhi was hit in a strike that destroyed several buildings.
Meantime, the mystery is deepening surrounding the fate of mercenary fighters who staged last month's mutiny in Russia. As CNN's Alexander
Marquardt reports, Vladimir Putin now says the Wagner group, quote, simply does not exist.
ALEXANDER MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: It appears that the Russian President is saying two things here. First of all,
that, legally speaking, in Russia, mercenary groups are not allowed legally. And, secondly, that Wagner, as we have known it here in Ukraine
during this war, no longer exists. It raises all kinds of questions about the future of Wagner and its leader, Yevgeny Prigozhin, what its operations
may continue to look like in Africa and the Middle East, where it has been operating for years, and, of course, what the fate is for its leader,
Yevgeny Prigozhin which very much hangs in the balance.
But Putin making clear here that at least under Russian law, mercenary groups are not allowed to operate. Here's a little bit more of what he told
the "Kommersant" newspaper that I want to quote from. He says, we do not have a law for private military organizations. It simply does not exist.
There is no such legal entity. He goes on to say that it is not an easy question to answer.
Of course, the full name of the Wagner group is the Wagner Private Military Company. Now, Putin also detailed an extraordinary meeting on June 29.
That's just five days after the Wagner insurrection, in which some 35 commanders from Wagner came to the Kremlin and met with Putin. And in
Putin's own telling, he says he told them that they could continue to fight and they could continue to do so under their direct commander, whose call
sign is So Doi (ph) which means gray hair.
The man, according to Putin, not in agreement, but then Prigozhin himself piped up from the front row saying, no, the guys do not agree with this
decision. So, a split between the Russian president and the head of the Wagner Company on full display.
But what is apparent here is that the Russian President is trying to divide Prigozhin from his men while being able to maintain the option that the
Wagner fighters, who are considerable and very capable fighters, may continue to fight for Russia.
Back to you.
ASHER: America's top diplomat took aim at Russia and its war in Ukraine as he attended the ASEAN Foreign Minister's Summit in Jakarta, Indonesia.
Antony Blinken says Russian President Vladimir Putin will continue the war indefinitely, as long as he believes that he can, despite the horrific
costs to Russia. He said NATO's long-term commitments may be the quickest way to bring about an end to the war.
Meantime, Blinken met China's top diplomat Wang Yi on the sidelines of the summit on Thursday. Wang says, the U.S. needs to take real actions to put
bilateral relations back on the right track. CNN's Marc Stewart reports.
MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This meeting between U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and China's Wang Yi is part of this piecemeal effort
to try to cool things down and improve the relations between the two nations. This 90-minute meeting happened on the sidelines of the ASEAN
foreign ministers' meeting in Jakarta, Indonesia.
We have been hearing from a senior State Department official who said this was intended to be a follow-up to previous conversations in Beijing. We're
told the two were able to pick up where they left off and then take the conversations to the next level of detail, adding the conversation was a
bit more focused on action and concrete next steps.
Secretary Blinken talked about the need for peace in the Taiwan Strait. According to a Chinese government readout, Wang told Blinken the next step
for China and the U.S. would be to take real actions to put the relationship back on track.
The two men also discussed the global flow of synthetic drugs such as fentanyl, human rights and recent email hacks. Marc Stewart, CNN, Tokyo.
ASHER: All right, still to come, Hollywood's film and TV sets are quiet, but the picket lines are loud. We'll tell you about the issues behind the
strike, including a shocking allegation about how AI could change acting forever. And later on this hour, ICC Prosecutor Karim Khan will join me to
discuss the court's new investigation into alleged war crimes in Sudan.
ASHER: Lights, camera, but no action. Hollywood's TV and film sets have gone dark after the actors' union went on strike on Thursday. They have
joined writers in striking against the big studios and streamers in Hollywood. It is the first time that the two unions strike on Thursday.
They have joined writers in striking against the big studios and streamers in Hollywood. It is the first time that the two unions have been on strike
at the same time since 1960.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRAN DRESCHER, SAG-AFTRA UNION PRESIDENT: We are labor and we stand tall and we demand respect. And to be honored for our contribution, you share
the wealth because you cannot exist without us. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: The key issues involve disagreements about pay for streaming programs and how artificial intelligence is going to be changing the
industry. Actors union claims the studios want to pay an actor for one day of work and then be entitled to use an AI image of that actor pretty much
The studios claim that their proposals protect actors' digital rights. The strike doesn't just shut down production, it prevents actors from promoting
already completed projects. The entire cast of the movie, "Oppenheimer" actually walked out of its London premiere on Thursday, moments before the
screening -- screening, excuse me, began. CNN U.S. National Correspondent Natasha Chen is outside of Netflix's headquarters in Los Angeles. Natasha,
you've been speaking to those who are on strike. What are they saying?
NATASHA CHEN, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's the first day here that the actors are fully in full force outside of the studios on the
picket lines where writers have been for more than 70 days now. So, there's quite a bit of energy behind us. We actually heard a lot of conversations
of people who had seen each other in the last couple of months when actors have supported writers on this line and now they are formally meeting each
The two groups merge and of course, this is historic. It hasn't happened in Hollywood having a double strike. since the 1960s. And so, there is a lot
of energy here. As you heard from Fran Drescher, the President of SAG- AFTRA, there were some disappointing results from the negotiations in the last few days. And she talked a lot about just the incremental changes that
she feels the studios are offering. In fact, during a press conference yesterday, referred to that as if you're moving furniture on the Titanic.
Here's what she said to us in a one-on-one interview about that.
DRESCHER: It's a sickness when greed becomes to a level where you're just trying to offer incremental adjustments to a contract that no longer
reflects a current business model that was foisted upon us, disemboweled the soul of this art form, and created a vacuum. And it's very problematic.
CHEN: And a lot of the issues being discussed, of course, are compensation, residual pay in the world of streaming services, as well as
the use of artificial intelligence, and as you can imagine, takes the digital likeness of these actors and threatens the work that they do.
Meanwhile, the studios say that they offered a historic pay raise and groundbreaking protections regarding AI, and the studios released a
statement yesterday saying they are disappointed that SAG-AFTRA walked away from these negotiations.
When I asked the actors' guild what happens next, they told me that the studios do not wish to talk while there is a strike going on, but the
actors say that they welcome the conversation to restart at any time. Keep in mind that the writers who have been on strike, again, for more than 70
days, they have not made much progress with the studios, either. Zain.
ASHER: So, no talk while the strike is going on, which makes you think, how does all this end? Natasha Chen, live for us there. Thank you so much.
All right, joining us, live now from Los Angeles is Adam Conover. He's the -- a comedian and a writer and host of the "G-Word with Adam Conover". He
also serves on the board of the Writers Guild of America West. Adam, so good to have you with us. You know, I remember seeing the headlines earlier
this week about the deadline leading from Wednesday into Thursday and thinking to myself, you know what, obviously, there's not going to be a
strike among the actors.
Of course, they're going to reach a deal. I'm sure that at 11:59 Pacific Time, there's going to be a deal. The studios are going to come to the
table, actors in Hollywood are too valuable for them not to. Are you surprised or were you surprised that didn't happen?
ADAM CONOVER, COMEDIAN: I am surprised. I think the studios and the streamers really screwed it up, you know, they -- it's up to them to come
to the table and to bring a deal that labor can accept, you know. Writers and actors have said very clearly, we can no longer make a living in our
industry. We can no longer make health insurance. We can't pay our mortgage. We can't pay our rent.
And we are not willing to continue working unless our issues are met. And the companies for both the writers and the actors refused to even negotiate
on the most important points. If you look at, well, the statements, the guild -- both guilds have put out, you'll see that on our most important
points, they didn't even counter us. They just said, refuse to talk about it, no thank you. That's not negotiating. And, you know, so, this strike
was caused by them.
ASHER: What are you talking about in terms of the most important points? What were the ones that they refused to even look at?
CONOVER: So, for writers, it's about preserving the writers' room. The companies are trying to eliminate the writers' room. They're trying to
force screenwriters to work for free. We had proposals that addressed those. They refused to discuss them. It's about participation in profit
that when the companies, when a show is massively successful, makes the companies huge amounts of money that we participate in the profits. And AI
protections. The companies refuse to negotiate with the writers' guild or the screen actors' guild about AI.
ASHER: So, here's the problem, and we're going to talk about AI, especially when it comes to actors in just a moment, but here's the
problem. The problem for actors who are in SAG right now is that the studios, at least in the short term, can of course continue to make money.
Of course, A-list actors, the very wealthy actors are also going to be fine. It's the actors who are just starting out, who are perhaps not as
fortunate, who are really going to be squeezed during this period of time. Because the studios can continue to make money, how does that affect
possible negotiations going forward? Doesn't that mean that they essentially have the upper hand here?
CONOVER: I'm going to argue with you on every one of those points, Zain. First of all, if you go to the picket lines, you will find the most
energized people there are the lower-level writers and actors, the people whose careers are just starting out, because they are the ones who have not
been able to make a living under the current regime.
The middle class of actors, when you turn on your TV, all those people whose names you don't know, who are the guest stars, the cameos, the
background actors, all the writers who wrote those scenes, they are not able to pay their rent and their mortgages. And they know that if we do not
go on strike, if we do not get a strong deal, they will never be able to have a career. And so, they are willing to take on the temporary strain of
a strike that may go for a number of months in order to secure a future career.
So, and you said, you know, the problem for actors is this. I think it's very important that we not say what we think the problem is for actors or
writers, but we listen to the members of these unions who are telling us what is important to them. And what the lower-level actors and writers are
telling us is that this is a vital fight and if we do not take it now, they will have no careers.
And by the way, the studios are not going to be able to make money because every single product that they make begins with writing and it ends with an
actor being filmed in front of a camera. And unless we are doing that work, they have no way to make money. They can sell library content, sure. People
can watch old episodes of "Friends", but people unsubscribe from Netflix and Max and all these other services at a blistering rate now.
People subscribe for a month at a time and then cancel their subscription once they're done watching the new "Stranger Things". So, they need a
constant supply of new shows in order to get their subscriber numbers up and guess what, they're not going to get any until they come back to the
table and make a fair deal and until they do, we're gonna be on those picket lines.
ASHER: Okay, so let's talk about what actors actually want, because of course, you know, the idea of using artificial intelligence to replicate an
actor's likeness and be able to use it in pituitary, of course that saves the studios' money. Of course, they're going to be excited about that. That
does also represent an existential threat for actors, for anybody actually, who has a job that is somewhat creative. Explain to us what a fair deal
actually looks like. How should actors be compensated if their image is replicated by artificial intelligence and used on a show?
CONOVER: So, actors should be compensated, period, if their image is used by artificial intelligence and replicated on a show. Like if you are
providing the work, if it is your likeness, if it is your performance, if it is your person and your way of being, you should be paid every time that
likeness is used. But more importantly, you should have consent.
What the AMPTP, the consortium of companies we're negotiating against, proposed the Screen Actors Guild, is that every background actor, when they
show up to a set, will be screened by artificial intelligence, their image will be scanned in, they'll receive a small payment, and then the company
will be able to use that background actor's likeness in perpetuity forever.
You know what that means? They are trying to eliminate background actors from the industry entirely. They wanna scan in a couple thousand people,
pay them each 100 bucks, and then get to use their likenesses long after they're dead.
That is repulsive and offensive to the artists who make this industry work. I think that everyone who hears a plan like that is horrified. Imagine if
that happened to you, Zain. If you walked into CNN, they said, guess what, we're gonna scan your face and we're gonna own it forever. And you know,
maybe later we could have an AI read the news. I think you would be offended by a company telling you that was their plan, just like actors
were offended by the companies telling us that was their plan for us.
ASHER: Adam, absolutely. You know, it's interesting because I think that anybody who hears what actors are looking for in all of this would say to
themselves, you know what, that actually does seem fair. It seems fair. Not just the AI portion of it, but it also seems fair that Netflix is much more
transparent about, you know, how many people are watching, as you point out "Stranger Things" or whatever, "Succession" on HBO, whatever, so that
actors can be paid fairly when it comes to residual payments.
All of that seems fair on paper. I think what the studio is saying is, look, this business environment is not what it used to be. This is not the
same game that it was 10, 20 years ago. I know you're laughing, but can you just respond to that? I'm sure you heard what Bob Iger said. What's your
response to that?
ASHER: Yeah, so Bob Iger said we weren't being realistic. And he said that from a billionaire summer camp that he flew to in his private jet that he's
hanging out at with Mark Zuckerberg and David Zaslav. David Zaslav, the CEO of your parent company, by the way, who was paid $250 million last year.
Iger just negotiated himself an extra $50 million. So, save me the pleas of poverty.
What's actually happening is the people at the top of these companies have figured out how to take money out of the pockets of everyone who actually
does the work, the writers, the actors, the directors, the crew members. They're taking money out of our pockets and they're putting it into theirs
so they can fuel their private jets off to their billionaire compounds where they can you know hang out and make out edge at each other with their
rich guy parties.
Okay, that's fine if they want to do that but we are not going to sit stand idly by. We are gonna hit the picket lines and tell them we've had enough.
We deserve our fair share. Like, the fact that they're claiming poverty at all while they're doing these things in our faces is ridiculous,
hypocritical and frankly offensive.
ASHER: Okay, my last question to you. When you think about all the other people that are affected by the actors going on strike, I mean, it's
everybody that works on a movie set, right? It's the caterers, it's wardrobe, it's hair and makeup. I mean, what does all this mean for them?
What does the future look like for them in the short-term?
CONOVER: So, we know that a strike is, you know, it's a sacrifice that not just we take, but that everybody else that we work with in our industry
takes on, as well. So, here's the thing. We have something that billionaires don't, it's called solidarity. We look out for each other as
So, our unions have strike funds that we use in order to help members pay their expenses when they're on hard times. But we're also raising money for
funds that help all entertainment workers. There's a fund called the Entertainment Community Fund. We have raised over $2 million for them.
They've given grants to any film and television worker who has fallen on hard times.
And by the way, a lot of the other people that you mentioned are fellow union members who work for IATSE or the Teamsters and guess what, they are
with us. They have been respecting our picket lines on a massive scale and refusing to work out of solidarity with us because they are gonna have
their own fight in the coming years, and they know that we are gonna have their back.
And that is solidarity. It's working people looking out for each other. And so, we don't, you know, we are concerned for our fellow workers. But that
concern leads us to help each other. That makes us stronger, and that's why we'll win.
ASHER: Well, thank you, Adam, for your honesty and your passion. I'm really grateful that you came on the show. You did not mince your words.
You spoke from the heart. Thank you.
CONOVER: I never do. Thank you so much for having me, Zain. It's wonderful to be here.
ASHER: Of course, anytime. Adam Conover, thank you so much. All right. Still to come here, we'll be speaking to the ICC Prosecutor, Karim Khan on
the court's new probe into alleged war crimes in Darfur.
ASHER: Hello and welcome back to ONE WORLD. Let's catch up on the headlines. Actor Kevin Spacey in London -- in London court today where he
was cross-examined in the ongoing trial over allegations of sexual offenses. Spacey accusing the prosecution of having a weak case on
Thursday. He said he touched his accuser in what he described as a quote, romantic and intimate way. The 63-year-old actor is facing 12 charges
including indecent assault and sexual assault. Spacey is denying all of the charges.
The Russian Duma has approved a bill banning gender reassignment surgery and nearly all medical help for transgender people. It must still be
approved by the upper House of Parliament and signed by President Vladimir Putin before becoming law. The bill is the latest in a series of crackdowns
on LGBTQ rights in Russia.
The U.N. Human Rights office is calling on Kenyan authorities to guarantee the right to peaceful assembly amid ongoing tax protests. At least 23
people have reportedly been killed this past week in demonstrations over tax hikes. The U.N. expressed concern about allegations of disproportionate
use of force by police.
Turkey, which brokered a crucial grain deal along with the U.N. is among the countries hoping it can be extended. Moscow is threatening to quit the
deal, which expires on Monday. The agreement, which allows grain to be shipped from Ukrainian ports, helped alleviate a global food crisis that
has been a lifeline for many countries, especially those in Africa.
CNN's Eleni Giokos sat down with the President of the African Export-Import Bank to talk about how the war in Ukraine is impacting the continent.
ELENI GIOKOS, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: There's obviously a lot of African countries have not, have decided not to condemn the war in Ukraine.
There's a sense that they're snubbing the West in favor of Russia. I mean, there's a lot of talk, right? But I think the African leaders came together
and said, look, we want to help figure out a way for peace.
BENEDICT OKEY ORAMAH, PRESIDENT, AFREXIMBANK: That's it for Africa. The issue is, look, let us just, you know, we cannot get too involved in this.
GIOKOS: And you've got economic issues that you need to think about, because, you know, Africa's almost stuck in the middle. It's collateral
ORAMAH: Yeah, really, really stuck in the middle.
GIOKOS: Yeah, too hard.
ORAMAH: Because the consequences are real.
ORAMAH: It's not as if you just fold your hand and it's okay, when the war ends, you just watch. Whoever wins, fine. The consequences are -- that it's
about livelihood, political problems for countries. If you can't find food for people to eat, that is a real problem. Of course, it's important that
the continent takes this as an opportunity to grow its own food -- the food of sovereignty.
So, you don't really spend on anybody. But right now, the situation is that we need fertilizers, we need grains, we have the money to pay for them. How
do you pay? That is - now -- and for us, we are a bit frustrated as a bank because we are really at the forefront of it, so to say. Because we speak
to -- to the Europeans and others, there's no sanction. Yes, there's no sanction, but there's self-sanction.
You need to get some people to tell them clearly, okay, even if it's just for Africa, designate them, so they know that they can provide these
logistic services, insurance, to make sure goods move. That way, things can be easier, you know. But hopefully with the work of the United Nations, I
hope that they can.
ASHER: The International Criminal Court is investigating alleged war crimes in Darfur, Sudan, following the discovery of a mass grave with at
least 87 bodies inside. Worse yet, that discovery comes amid a larger escalation in violence over the last few months. It is not the first time
we have reached a point like this, of course, in Sudan. The echoes of genocide in Darfur announced 20 years ago continue today and leave the
world with a fear that hasn't left since over the fate of Sudan itself.
The ICC says the through line is clear, that it is obvious it accuses Sudan of failing to account for the crimes of decades past and failing to uphold
its obligations under international law back then, as well as right now. Sudan's Ambassador to the United Nations in response says fully cooperating
with the ICC would require ratifying the Rome Statute, the treaty that created the court, something Sudan's government has not yet done.
Time now for The Exchange. Joining me live now is Karim Khan, Prosecutor for the International Criminal Court. Mr. Khan, thank you so much for being
with us. Let's talk about what is happening on the ground right now in Sudan. You've talked about this idea that there is a human catastrophe in
the making. This conflict has killed more than 3000 people. Three million people, at least, at least, have been forced to flee their home. Just walk
us through what accountability looks like here.
KARIM KHAN, PROSECUTOR, INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT: Well, it means, accountability means proper investigations, proper cooperation by Sudan and
all states actually of the United Nations, pursuant to the Security Council resolution of 2005. And we are here because we have failed collectively to
grasp the nettle of accountability. There needs to be fair trials to look into these allegations and determinations by independent judges.
What we need to show right now, Zain, is not promises, not words, but delivery. People have their homes burnt. There's many reports of people who
have been killed, crimes of sexual violence, and we need to show that the various parts of the international architecture, whether the United Nations
or the International Criminal Courts, whether it's the African Union or any other organization, we are capable of providing shelter to the very most
vulnerable parts of society, and we need to do better and we need to act.
ASHER: Yeah, I mean, there is this sort of deep-seated fear that the world just hasn't learned its lesson. I mean, it's about 20 years since the start
of the genocide in Sudan. And when you think about it, where we are now, I mean, yes, this conflict has only been going on for three months, but
mediation efforts have not worked. Ceasefires have not really upheld. I mean, just walk us through what your biggest fear is right now in terms of
what's happening on the ground in Sudan.
KHAN: Well, in fact, the first point of departure is -- I don't accept, it's just three months. There's 90 days, you're right, of the latest round
of violence. But the seeds of the violence have been with us since 2005 when the Security Council made the most serious determination it can make
that the situation in Darfur represents the threat to international peace and security.
The ICC moved forward by my predecessors. I've been there twice. But the failure to deliver on the promise of justice, the failure, collectively, to
give life to the promise of never again has resulted in this current tragedy that is taking place that a whole new generation of innocent people
are caught in the middle of a power struggle between different parts of Sudan.
And their rights need to be protected and they need to be vindicated. And I think, this is a defining moment. We have many in the world at the moment,
which is -- are these structures that have been created fit for purpose, and are we willing to protect those that look to these structures, that
look to the U.N. or the ICC, or the African Union, or individual states of good conscience, to protect them and give life to the promise that every
human life matters equally. It doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, whether one is in a mud hut or in a palace, we need to do better and I
think we're not stepping up to the plate in the manner that victims expect of us.
ASHER: Let's talk about the process, I mean, just in terms of what you say, stepping up to the plate and just helping victims in terms of
accountability. I mean, let's talk about Omar al-Bashir. I mean, he was supposed to be in a prison in Khartoum after he was ousted from power in
2019. There are reports that he may have ended up in a military hospital when the fighting, the current conflict first started formally three months
ago. What do you know about his whereabouts? And are you confident that he will one day be handed over to the ICC, that he will one day face trial in
KHAN: Well, I've sent a formal request for assistance to the Sudanese authorities. Over the last three months, I've also sent messages to the
leadership of the two parties, the RSF and the SAF to cooperate and to remember that it is an active investigation. Of course, there's been almost
20 years of investigation and these suspects have not been delivered. We have one trial that's underway. We've closed the prosecution case in
relation to Abdurrahman Ali Kusheib at the ICC, very good trial management by the judges, and the defense case is scheduled to start in October.
So, we've been effective in relation to one case. But there's a whole host of other criminality, including the warrants that you've mentioned, that
have to be executed. So, I can't give promises. All I can promise is we're going to try to use our scanty resources as effectively as possible to
vindicate the rights of as many Darfuris as possible, and try to compensate for the lack of cooperation that we've seen by the government of Sudan that
I reported last year.
It's not simply because there's a conflict. In fact, the conflict is because in part of the lack of cooperation, the lack of willingness to deal
with historical injustice, the failure to uphold the agreements of the Juba peace agreements or the memorandum of understanding that I signed in August
2021. But all we'll need to do is build partnerships with neighboring states, with other member states of the United Nations and with the African
Union to do better. And I think, there's always, where there's a will, there's a way. The question is, is there really a collective will?
I noted, day before yesterday, the United Kingdom has sanctioned six companies, three allegedly affiliated with the Sudanese armed forces, three
allegedly linked to the RSF, but it needs collaboration across all sectors, the European Union, the African Union, and all states because this is
really a battle for the promise of the Charter in the 75th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, that we are serious about the
worth of every human being. And there's work to do there.
ASHER: You know, one of the most horrific sort of news reports to come out of the conflict in Sudan is, of course, you know, the 87 bodies, sort of 87
-- 87 people -- 87 individuals that were found in a mass grave in Sudan, many of them members of the Masalit tribe, part of the non-Arab community.
As we talk about accountability, as we talk about an investigation, talk to us a bit more about the process of gathering evidence, especially because,
you know, you're not going to receive that much cooperation -- cooperation that you would like from Sudanese authority. Does it -- does it -- are you
relying on public appeal? Are you relying on having aid organizations help you gather evidence? Just talk to us about the process here.
KHAN: Well, we need to build partnerships with as many different stakeholders as possible. I've announced and I've started a public appeal
for witnesses. We have announced and we've launched a new online portal that allows victims anywhere in the world, in Sudan, in neighboring
countries, in Paris, in London, wherever, in Nairobi, to send information, photographs, video on a secure portal.
We need to also do better with the U.N. and African Union moving forward. Of course, whatever we receive, we have to be vigilant that it's authentic
and it's reliable, it's not being fabricated, and we are charged with the duty to investigate incriminating and exonerating evidence equally.
But if we rise together and if we bind together, not because of politics but based upon our humanity, we have a chance to do better than we did over
the last 20 years, but it requires people to step up. As I've said, it requires words to have value. We should feel a bit ashamed that the promise
of Never Again and the Security Council's obligations have resulted in yet another cycle of misery for the people of Sudan. And this is a moment that
I think will define us in so many different ways.
ASHER: My last question to you is going to be about Russia. Obviously, the ICC earlier this year issued an arrest warrant for Vladimir Putin. You
know, the assumption is that when it comes to the BRICS Summit happening in Johannesburg next month, the assumption is that Vladimir Putin will attend
virtually. However, there are some South African ministers who have raised the possibility that he might actually attend in person. If he does, are
you confident that he will be arrested in South Africa?
KHAN: You know, I'm a Prosecutor. I need to be prudent and prepared for different scenarios with the tools that I have available. South Africa,
I've said it before and I mean it, is a respected state party. Whenever I look at South Africa, I recall the greatness of the great Mandela. And I
think all South Africans will look to him, not to me, about what would the great Nelson Mandela do, confronted with this situation.
South Africa has felt a crime against humanity over decades, the crime of apartheid. I don't think they need lessons from me. They are voluntarily
state parties to the ICC. They know what the law is and I think they will do the right thing. And we will assess what actually happens at the BRICS
Summit and respond accordingly.
ASHER: All right. Karim Khan, live for us there. Thank you so much. Appreciate your time.
KHAN: No, great pleasure. Thanks so much.
ASHER: As mentioned, the case of Abd al-Rahman is ongoing at the ICC. CNN has reached out for comment. He denies the charges. And his defense team is
expected to present their case on August 28. Omar al Bashir has also denied the allegations against him. And CNN has not been able to reach Abdelrahim
Hussein or Ahmad Harun for comment. We'll be right back with more.
ASHER: The U.S. State Department says its top diplomat raised concerns about hacking with China, warning the U.S. government will respond to any
action that targets its interests. That's after Microsoft announced China's -- China-based hackers breached email accounts at two dozen organizations,
including some U.S. government agencies. CNN's Kylie Atwood explains what China may have gained from that attack.
KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN U.S. SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: The Biden administration believes that China's hack of U.S. government agencies provided the Chinese
government with insights into the Biden administration's thinking ahead of the planned visit to China by the Secretary of State, Antony Blinken.
That's according to two U.S. officials familiar with the matter.
And we should note that Microsoft said that they learned about this hack on June 16th from their customers, and that's when they began investigating
it. That is the same day that the Secretary of State left Washington and headed to Beijing for those meetings. Now, we should also note that this
hack only was able to gain access to the unclassified side of U.S. systems.
And so therefore, when you talk to U.S. officials, the amount that the Chinese officials were able to glean was quite limited. But it did provide
them with some insights leading into the Secretary of State's visit, which could have contributed to how Chinese officials thought about that visit,
which is significant. We should also note that Secretary of Commerce, Gina Raimondo, who is also compromised in this hack. She is planning to visit
Beijing in the coming months. Kylie Atwood, CNN, Washington.
ASHER: All right, still to come here on ONE WORLD. India has had -- has the moon in its sights as it's blasted off in a landmark mission. What it
is trying to accomplish that's only been done by a few other countries. That's next.
ASHER: We now know Lisa Marie Presley's cause of death. According to the Los Angeles County Medical Examiner, she had a blockage in her small
intestine. It was attributed to a complication from weight loss surgery years before. The toxicology report also found certain medications in her
system, but they did not contribute to her death. Lisa Marie was the only daughter of the late Elvis Presley and Priscilla Presley. She was 54 years
India's space agency reports a successful start to what will hopefully be a landmark mission to the moon.
Its lunar spacecraft lifted off early Friday. It will attempt a soft landing on the moon, something that's been accomplished by only three other
countries. Kristie Lu Stout has more.
UNKNOWN: Two, one, zero.
KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): India's literally shooting for the moon with a historic mission that could cement its position as a space
power. The Chenjayan-3, which means moon vehicle in Sanskrit, launched Friday afternoon. As the name suggests, this is India's third lunar
mission, and it's part of the country's greater bid to be a space power.
During the last mission in 2019, the rover crashed after a hard landing. With this mission, they're aiming to land the rover near the moon's
unexplored south pole. Officials say the landers due to reach the moon on August the 23rd. After the landing, scientists plan to deploy the rover and
to conduct scientific experiments, including analyzing the chemistry of the lunar soil, measuring the temperature of the lunar surface and scanning for
On launch day, India's Prime Minister tweeted this, quote, 14th of July, 2023 will always be etched in golden letters as far as India's space sector
is concerned. Chandrayaan-3, our third lunar mission, will embark on its journey. This remarkable mission will carry the hopes and dreams of our
LU STOUT (on-camera): Now, success would be huge for India. So far, only three countries have successfully self-landed a craft on the moon, the
U.S., the former Soviet Union and China. Kristy Lu Stout, CNN, Hong Kong.
ASHER: Thank you so much for watching ONE WORLD. I'm Zain Asher. "AMANPOUR" is up next. You're watching CNN.