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One World with Zain Asher
Russian Drones Target Grain Storage Areas In A Port Along Danube River; North Korea Confirms Custody Of U.S. Army Private Travis King; Death Toll From Hawaii Wildfires Continue To Rise; Possible Charges Could Be Refiled Against Actor Alec Baldwin; Groundbreaking App Allows People In Rwanda To Take Their Health Into Their Own Hands; Madonna Reschedules Postponed Summer Show Dates. Aired 12-1p ET
Aired August 16, 2023 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello and welcome. I'm Christina Macfarlane live in London and this is One World. We begin with
key developments in Ukraine as Kyiv's counter offensive inches forward. A cargo ship has left the Black Sea port of Odessa despite Moscow's threats
to target shipping after it withdrew from the Black Sea grain deal last month. Ukraine says the ship is moving through a temporary corridor created
for civilian vessels.
The Hong Kong flagship had been trapped since Russia's invasion in February of last year. This as Ukraine accuses Russia of targeting food supplies
following an overnight drone attack in the Odessa region. Moscow has been striking Ukrainian ports and grain silos since mid-July.
Meanwhile, Kyiv claims its forces have recaptured a village in the Donetsk region after days of punishing battles. Well, CNN's Nic Robertson has been
following all the developments for us from London and joins us now live. Nic, I want to begin with that cargo vessel leaving the Black Sea
currently. How viable is this temporary corridor that's been set up as an alternative transport route for Ukrainian grain, given that we know Moscow
have threatened to treat any ships leaving Ukraine as a target?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: And we know that they boarded a Turkish ship that was inbound towards Ukraine earlier in the
week. So, it's not clear. Really, this is a voyage somewhat into the unknown. Of course, this was a ship that's been stuck -- a Hong Kong-
registered ship that's been stuck in Ukraine since Russia invaded back in early 2022. And Ukraine says it's giving the priority to getting all of
those stuck ships out. It wasn't able to do that when the Black Sea grain deal was working, but Russia was a participant in, as well.
So, Russia's threats, as far as Ukraine is concerned, are very real, and this will be a test. And we saw just today, as well, that the Russian
drones targeted grain storage areas in a port along the Danube River, again, implicit threat to Ukraine. You're not going to be able to move your
grain out even along the Danube River, which is a sort of alternate backup plan of not being able to use the Black Sea. So, this is a test.
Thirty thousand tons of goods on board, some of them food products on board this Hong Kong registered ship. It's on its way to Turkey. It's expected to
go through the Bosphorus in the coming days, but if there's interference along the way, then that would very likely cause a -- Ukrainians perhaps to
have to put a pause on this current plan.
MACFARLANE: And given the grinding nature of this counteroffensive so far, how significant are these claims from Ukraine that they have liberated this
village in the Donetsk region?
ROBERSTON: It's right next to a village that they liberated about two weeks ago and if you sort of you read through the details of what's been
happening in that village and this other village just to the east that they've now taken control of, the reality is the fight there has been
pushed backwards and forwards. Ukrainians took the first village, the Russians were trying to get it back, they set their sights on the second
village, the one they've now got, and we can expect to see the Russians try to push back.
And along that big, long front line across sort of from Donetsk all the way across towards Zaporizhzhia, that southern frontline, Ukraine continues to
make small gains, but they are potentially reversible. And we heard from the commander of Ukraine's ground forces earlier today saying that he'd
spend most of his day up in the frontline in the northeast of the country around Kupyansk where he said the Russians were putting a huge effort to
try to get into that town, a town Ukrainians retook from the Russians back in the end of last year.
So, it is significant that Ukrainians ever so slowly are making gains. It's good for their morale. But we can expect, A, the Russians to push back and
any further moves from there will take time. That's what we're seeing at the moment.
MACFARLANE: Nic Robertson, we appreciate your reporting on this. Thank you. And we are learning more about an attack on Russia's bridge to Crimea last
month. Ukraine's security service is claiming responsibility. It's the first time it's openly done so. And now new footage shows the moment an
experimental sea drone detonated under the bridge. CNN's Nick Paton Walsh has this exclusive report.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: It's become the most beleaguered symbol of Russian occupation. This weekend, Moscow saying this
incident was just a smoke screen foiling a Ukrainian attack on the $4 billion Kerch bridge, the link between Russia and occupied Crimea that
Putin seems to dote on.
Now, CNN has obtained exclusive footage heralding a new way of warfare of another earlier devastating Ukrainian seaborne drone strike there in July.
From the Ukrainian security services, the SBU, who say they did it and more will follow. This is exactly what the drone pilots saw. Thermal imagery,
the water rippling as up to a ton of explosive approaches the bridge. The feed then obviously went dead as it hit the concrete.
Russian officials said two civilians died in the attack. Cameras on the bridge captured the first blast on the road section. The cursor shows the
drone moving in. And another on the railway tracks at about the same time. Ukraine has been coy, some officials saying these huge blasts are from
quote, "Unidentified Floating Objects" but no longer. The head of the Ukrainian security services told CNN this is just the start.
VASYL MALIUK, HEAD OF UKRAINIAN SECURITY SERVICE (through translator): Sea surface drones are a unique invention of the Security Service of Ukraine.
None of the private companies are involved. Using these drones, we have recently conducted successful hits of the Crimean Bridge, a big assault
ship, Olenegorsky Gorniak in SIG tanker. This, another Ukrainian drone attack on the Russian amphibious assault boat, the Oleg Gorsky Gorniak, on
which Ukrainian officials said 100 personnel were on board.
It was a remarkable feat, carried out by a growing fleet of what they call the sea babies. Hundreds of miles away from Ukrainian bases and right in
Russia's coastal heartland. It put the Black Sea's east suddenly at risk.
MALIUK (through translator): These drones are produced at an underground production facility in Ukraine. We are working on a number of new
interesting operations, including in the Black Sea waters. I promise you, it will be exciting, especially for our enemies.
WALSH: Ukraine's ingenuity again and again toppling the lumbering Russian Goliath. Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Dnipro, Ukraine.
MACFARLANE: Now, horrifying new details are emerging about a gruesome discovery from one of Sudan's most violent war-torn areas. A government
forum in West Darfur state known as the Native Administration says it has uncovered 30 mass graves containing more than 1000 bodies. CNN cannot
independently verify that claim, but local leaders warn it's only the beginning and they're pointing the finger of blame squarely at the Rapid
Support Forces. Fighting broke out between the RSF and Sudanese army in April. Meanwhile, a top Sudanese official says it's time for a caretaker
MALIK AGAR, SUDAN'S SOVEREIGN COUNCIL DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (through translator): The situation necessitates us to form a government to run the wheel of the
state to carry out a couple basic tasks, to provide services and rebuild what was destroyed by the war, to work with the political forces to
structure and establish the state, and to prepare the environment for a constituent and constitutional conference that will lead us to elections
and the peaceful exchange of power.
MACFARLANE: And later in the show, we will be speaking with a former U.N. resident and humanitarian coordinator in Sudan, Mukesh Kapila, on the dire
situation in the region. Stay tuned for that.
Now, North Korea has finally broken its silence, publicly confirming for the first time that U.S. Army Private Travis King illegally crossed into
the country last month during a tour of the DMZ. Now, according to state media, King told North Korean officials he was seeking refuge because of
mistreatment and racism in the American military. A defense official tells CNN the U.S. cannot verify those claims and that the focus remains on
getting King home safely. King's mother, meanwhile, is appealing to North Korea to treat her son humanely.
Well, CNN National Security Reporter Natasha Bertrand is following the story for us from the Pentagon. And, Natasha, obviously, this is the first
time we're hearing Pyongchang acknowledge detaining Travis King. But it's important to remember this messaging is coming from North Korea, and
therefore, as such, it's very difficult to verify that information.
NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Exactly right. It could just be pure propaganda, right Christina? And that's why the Defense
Department is telling us that they cannot verify the statements that the North Koreans have made about this. Recall that the U.S. has tried to
connect with the North Koreans directly about Travis King's situation multiple times, but the North Koreans have not engaged substantively on the
issue with either the U.N. command there or the United States.
So, the U.S., still, really, struggling here to get a clear picture of Travis King's condition, including from this latest statement that we got
out of North Korea which really does not address how Travis King is doing, where he is being housed, his general mental state.
All it says really is -- outlines the motivations that Travis King apparently provided to the North Koreans for crossing over into North
Korea. Now it is true, and defense officials believe that King did willfully cross that border. He was not coerced in any way and he did
intend to kind of run into the DMZ when he did so. But at the same time, the motivations that they're ascribing to King, that is still being
disputed by the members of his own family who say that they cannot think of a situation in which King would defect from the U.S. military.
So, it is very unclear at this point just how much stock we can put into this statement released by the North Koreans. However, U.S. officials are
paying attention to it because, of course, it is the first substantive sign that they have gotten and the first confirmation from the North Koreans,
really that King is in their custody currently. And we should note that statement from the North Koreans said that their investigation is still
ongoing. But obviously, top of mind here for both his family and for the Defense Department is going to be on trying to get him home safely, really
regardless of whether he crossed that border deliberately or not. Christina.
MACFARLANE: Yeah, an important development but unclear at this stage how North Korea may be looking to leverage this moment. Natasha Bertrand there,
live from the Pentagon. Thank you. Now, Hawaii's governor says the devastation from the wildfires on Maui resembles a war zone. Authorities
now say at least 106 people have died and those numbers will likely rise as search crews and cadaver dogs continue to sift through incinerated homes
and businesses following the deadliest U.S. wildfire in more than a century.
The governor says identifying the dead could take weeks. Families of the missing have been asked to provide DNA samples to help identify remains.
The governor also addressed why sirens did not sound the alarm as fire raced through the area.
JOSH GREEN, HAWAII GOVERNOR: Sirens were typically used for tsunamis or hurricanes. To my knowledge, at least I never experienced them in use for
fires. There may be some reasons for that. Sometimes sirens send people up mountain, and going up the mountain during a fire can be problematic. Going
up the mountain when there's a wave is what you have to do. But the sirens, some were broken, and we're investigating that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACFARLANE: Well, U.S. President Joe Biden is planning to travel to Hawaii on Monday to get a firsthand look at the devastation. CNN's Bill Weir is on
the ground in Kula and filed this report.
BILL WEIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is the Kula neighborhood in Maui. We're several miles from the destruction in Lahaina, and this is still an active
fire zone. Only about 60 percent of this upcountry fire has been contained, and we can actually see at least two hotspots around here, which explains
the yellow helicopter. That is a Maui Fire Department. He's taken bucket loads of water from a nearby swimming pool of a home that was completely
burned down. They're refilling it with a fire hydrant but the fire department has stretched so thin here that it's really sort of do-it-
yourself DIY fire protection, which explains this setup.
This homeowner was gone, his wife was here, but she fired up their improvised sort of fire prevention system and they're spraying it as far as
they can down into the ravine here. With the fear that some of these hot spots might whip up. There's a couple of storms brewing in the Pacific,
nothing near to Hurricane or the storm Dora that created all of the firestorm winds, but still, anything that would kick this up is one more
horrible thing to worry about here.
Meanwhile, in Lahaina, officials say about only a third of that area has been searched with cadaver dogs. About a dozen souls have been identified
through DNA, four identified and notified families, and then they've got dozens of other families who are now giving DNA samples because they have
loved ones who are missing. So, it's agony, knowing maybe the worst has happened, but hoping you'll get a better result.
Here again comes another drop. And in addition to fire department, sprinklers, we actually met a couple of guys, volunteers who were putting
out hot spots with bottled water, sort of bushwhacking through this dry brush. One of them actually burned a foot when he slid into still
smoldering ash. So, that's the scene here in upcountry. People understand here that there's a lot of action and sympathy happening in Lahaina. But
this is an ongoing story. We're gonna stay on it for you all day here. I'm Bill Weir, CNN in Maui.
MACFARLANE: Now, none of the 19 defendants in Georgia's election subversion case has turned themselves in so far. Donald Trump and 18 others face a
range of charges, including racketeering. They have until August 25th to report to the Fulton County Jail.
And as Jessica Schneider reports, some are accused of breaking the laws they swore an oath to protect.
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis charging 19 people for crimes in the alleged
criminal enterprise to overturn the 2020 election. And eight of them are lawyers, professionally obligated to follow the law, but now accused of
breaking it. Already, at least one is now claiming the D.A. is criminalizing the practice of law.
JENNA ELLIS, TRUMP CAMPAIGN ATTORNEY: It is irredeemably compromised.
SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Former Trump Campaign Attorney Jenna Ellis, who was front and center falsely claiming widespread election fraud, posted online
defending her actions. Rudy Giuliani also shot back on his radio show.
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER TRUM LAWYER: This is all protected free speech. This is what you're allowed to do to contest an election. This is what a lawyer
is allowed to do in representing a client.
SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Giuliani is charged with 13 counts in the indictment, more than any other defendant except Trump. In a statement, he
called the charges an affront to American democracy. But former federal prosecutor, Elliot Williams points out, someone's status as an attorney
doesn't give them carte blanche to break the law.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: An attorney can provide legal representation to a client as long as they are not urging that client to
commit a crime or committing themselves. And the mere fact that these individuals were attorneys doesn't somehow absolve them.
SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Giuliani is charged as part of the broader racketeering conspiracy encompassing all 19 defendants. But he's also
facing several additional charges, including making false statements to the Georgia House and Senate when he testified in 2020 about bogus voter fraud
claims and urged state lawmakers to overturn the results.
GIULIANI: There are 10 ways to demonstrate that this election was stolen, that the votes were phony, dead people, felons. Phony ballots, phony mail-
SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Other pro-Trump attorneys also charged include John Eastman and Kenneth Chesebro, who outlined a plan to get Vice President
Mike Pence to block the certification of the election on January 6th. And Jeffrey Clark, a top Justice Department official who drafted a letter that
he hoped DOJ would send to various state leaders, including in Georgia, falsely proclaiming fraud in their states.
ROBERT CHEELEY, FORMER TRUMP LAWYER: Regarding this voter fraud at State Farm Arena was deliberately planned. It had to be.
SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Robert Cheeley was a lawyer who worked with Trump's team to promote voter fraud claims. He's also been charged along with Trump
campaign attorney Ray Smith.
RAY SMITH, TRUMP CAMPAIGN ATTORNEY: Two thousand five hundred and six felons voted illegally in Georgia.
SCHNEIDER (voice-over): And Sidney Powell has been charged with seven crimes, including her alleged involvement in the scheme to break into
voting machines in Coffee County, Georgia. She repeatedly and falsely declared Dominion voting systems as fraudulent in the weeks and months
after the election.
SIDNEY POWELL, TRUMP CAMPAIGH ATTORNEY: And that's when the Dominion operators went in and injected votes and changed the whole system.
SCHNEIDER: And Dominion is now suing Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani for defamation. So, their legal troubles have only been compounded by this
latest criminal case out of Georgia. In the meantime, John Eastman's attorney is also responding, saying the activity in this latest indictment
is political and not criminal. Jessica Schneider, CNN, Washington.
MACFARLANE: Okay, coming up, why a new report raises the possibility charges could be refiled against actor Alec Baldwin in the Russ movie set
shooting. Then why the current violence in Sudan's Darfur region could end up engulfing the entire country. The details coming up.
MACFARLANE: The Women's World Cup final is now set. England will take on Spain in Sunday's final. It's the first time in the finals for both teams.
England advanced after their stunning 3-1 win over co-host Australia. No love lost between these two sports-obsessed countries who battled in front
of a raucous crowd of just under 76,000. And understandably, England fans are rejoicing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: I got no nails, my teeth were all broken, that was tense the whole way through. Australia played amazingly, but unfortunately England are
bringing it home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACFARLANE: Well, CNN Sport's, Don Riddell joining us now with all the details. Don, I love that we can now say for the first time since 1966,
England are through to a World Cup final. DON RIDDELL, CNN SPORT: Yeah, England fans are loving it. Obviously,
Christina, you and I are England fans. But I'm going to be honest because I'm a sports fan, as well. There was a moment in this game where I really
wanted Australia to win it. And we'll show you why, because these highlights were absolutely incredible. It was a great occasion, as you say,
a huge crowd, very, very passionate crowd but England's ever tuned there, silencing that crowd just a little with an amazing goal, but it was
bettered in the second half by this effort from Sam Kerr.
Just take a look. What an absolutely brilliant goal. Sam Kerr is the Australian star. She is the heartbeat of this team. This was her first
start in this World Cup. And I personally wanted that moment to mean something, but in the end it was for nought as England won the game.
Lauren Hemp here capitalizing on a mistake in the Australian defense and then, you know, at this point, Australia could have got back into it. Sam
Kerr just, just wide. And just moments after that, England put this one to bed with another good finish from Alessia Russo. So, England winning 3-1 on
So, so disappointing for the Australian team, the Matildas, as they're so passionately known. But this team has done so much to transform the
perception of women's soccer and women's sport in Australia over the last few weeks. As you say, though, England are back in the World Cup final, the
first time since the men did it in 1966. You might say it's third-time lucky for this England team, the Lionesses, because they've played in the
last two semifinals and lost them both, but they've won this one and their fans are absolutely loving it. They can't wait for the final on Sunday.
MACFARLANE: Yeah and we know they'll be facing a young side in Spain, but as a side that have really demonstrated their talents during this
tournament, we know that there's a sort of core of Barcelona players in this Spanish side. So, how do you see this contest playing out on Sunday,
RIDDELL: I think it's going to be another really, tight game. Honestly, I think it's too tight to call. England have certainly shown their experience
to get this far. Remember, they are the European champions. But Spain, kind of a team of sleeping giants. You know, a lot of people might not realize
that they are the reigning under-20 world champions. They have won back-to- back world titles in the under-17 World Cup.
And whilst they've been dealing with a lot of drama off the field, the players have not been entirely thrilled with the way the team is coached. A
lot of those players stood up to the coach and as a result 12 of them aren't even in the team anymore. But they still seem to have an awful lot
of brilliant players, many of whom have been developed by the clubs, in particular, Barcelona, who have won two of the last three Champions League
titles. So, this team is really, really good. This Spain team is really, really good. So, I think we're in for another great occasion on Sunday.
MACFARLANE: Yeah and of course whoever wins it is women's football of course that wins because this has just been such a record-breaking
tournament, hasn't it? Don Riddell there live for us. Thanks, Don.
Now, to a new development in the fatal shooting on the "Rust" film set. Its possible charges could be refiled against actor Alec Baldwin. The October
2021 shooting killed cinematographer Helena Hutchins during a film rehearsal. Alec Baldwin has repeatedly denied pulling the trigger. However,
a new independent test suggests the trigger was pulled and the gun did not malfunction.
The new report was filed as part of a defense motion on behalf of the set's armorer, who has been charged in the case. Auburn was charged with
involuntary manslaughter earlier this year, but those charges were dismissed. Well, for more on this, let's bring in CNN Security
Correspondent Josh Campbell from Los Angeles. And Josh, does this mean that Baldwin could face these charges of involuntary manslaughter once again?
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Christina, if prosecutors hold to what they said in June, the likelihood of charges being refiled
against actor Alec Baldwin just significantly increase. Now, at the time, he was facing an involuntary manslaughter charge for being the person who
was holding that weapon when it killed Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins. But that case was ultimately dismissed. At least temporarily, a law enforcement
source told me at the time, that's because investigators discovered that the gun that was used was 44, modified.
Now, I'll read you what prosecutors said at that time, which is so important. They said that the charges against Alec Baldwin were dismissed
without prejudice because of possible malfunction of the gun. If it is determined that the gun did not malfunction, charges against Mr. Baldwin
will proceed. Now, as part of this investigation, the U.S. FBI was brought in. This gun was sent to their laboratory. They determined that gun could
not have gone off if someone did not pull the trigger.
Officials there in New Mexico commissioned their own independent review that essentially came to the same conclusion of the FBI. I'll read you part
of that new report we just got our hands on. Those examiners wrote that although Alec Baldwin repeatedly denies pulling the trigger, given the test
findings and observations reported here, the trigger had to be pulled or depressed efficiently to release the fully cocked or retracted hammer of
the evidence revolver.
So, again in June, prosecutors said that if determined that the gun did not malfunction, they will move forward with charging Alec Baldwin. This new
report appears to confirm just that. We'll see what prosecutors do going forward. Finally, it's important to point out that Alec Baldwin has
repeatedly claimed his innocence, saying that he did not pull the trigger on that weapon. Take a listen to him here. This was him speaking to CNN
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR: I never once said, never, that the gun went off in my hand automatically. I always said I pulled the hammer back, and I pulled it
back as far as I could. I never took a gun and pointed at somebody and clicked the thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMPBELL: Now, if Baldwin is once again charged with manslaughter, there is one key area where his defense would likely be very strong, and that is the
structural integrity of that gun used on that movie set. And that is because when the FBI did its testing, the gun ultimately broke, it
malfunctioned. This new test was done using new parts that were put in that gun.
So, you can only imagine that Baldwin's defense attorney will be seizing on that, saying that, yeah, new components may work just fine, but how was the
gun, what was its condition at the time of that movie shooting, something we will certainly continue to watch to see if these new charges are indeed
MACFARLANE: Yeah, these are important details. We'll wait to see how it develops. Josh Campbell there, live for us. Thank you.
CAMPBELL: You bet.
MACFARLANE: All right, coming up, using technology to track your health and fitness. An app in Rwanda does just that, and there's a payoff for users
who meet their goals. More on that after the break.
MACFARLANE: Hi there and welcome back to One World. Let's catch up now on the latest headlines. Inflation in the U.K. has slowed to a 17-month low,
dropping to 6.8 percent in July. That's down from 7.9 percent a month earlier, following energy prices -- were the main reason for the decline.
And this, as the British pay more for services such as haircuts and restaurants.
Well, the death toll has risen to 60 people after heavy rain fell in the Himachal Pradesh State in Northern India. That's from the state's chief
minister who told the Indian news agency ANI on Tuesday that bodies are still being recovered from a landslide.
Now, the junta-appointed prime minister of Niger is making the diplomatic rounds. On Tuesday, he traveled to Chad's capital where he met with the
president. The two discussed Niger's transition process following last month's coup. Chad's president was one of the first to visit Niger after
the junta took over.
Now, two decades ago, Sudan's Darfur region became tragically synonymous with war crimes and genocide. Twenty years later, a new atrocity is
unfolding that community leaders warn is only the tip of the iceberg. A government forum known as the Native Administration claims to have
uncovered 30 mass grave sites containing more than a thousand bodies in the West Darfur state. And officials say many other bodies remain hidden in
secret graves scattered throughout the area. CNN cannot independently verify those claims. But the region does have a long history of conflict
that continues to this day.
Four months ago, fighting broke out between the Sudanese army and its RSF military rivals. But it is the civilians, of course, who are paying the
highest price. The U.N. says sexual violence is taking place nationwide on a, quote, sickening scale. And the humanitarian spokesperson warns the
crimes being committed won't go unpunished.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENS LAERKE, OCHA SPOKESPERSON: These leaders of global humanitarian organizations warn that the war is destroying people's lives and their
homeland and violating the basic human rights. I call on the parties to the conflict to end the fighting, protect civilians and give humanitarian
organizations unfaded access to people in need in all areas of Sudan and remind the fighters that attacking civilians, looting humanitarian
supplies, targeting aid workers and hospitals, or blocking aid, things we have seen throughout those four months may amount to war crimes and crimes
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACFARLANE: Well, time now for The Exchange and my conversation with Mikesh Kapila. He's a former U.N. resident and humanitarian coordinator in Sudan,
and he joins me now live from Geneva. Thank you so much for your time today.
As we've been hearing there today, yet more news of mass graves, which are of course a chilling development. I know you personally witnessed the
genocide perpetrated by the RSF in Darfur in 2003. Is what we're seeing in Sudan following along the same patterns of that 20 years ago? Or and if so,
what lesson should we be taking from that to try and protect people better right now?
MUKESH KAPILA, FMR. U.N. RESIDENT AND HUMANITARIAN COORDINATOR IN SUDAN: Tragically, what we are seeing happening in Darfur now, is a repetition of
what happened 20 years ago. The perpetrators are the descendants of the original perpetrators when I was the U.N. coordinator there and the victims
are the descendants of the original victims.
So, and the copy book is the same mass atrocities, sexual violence, displacement from your homes and forcing people to give up their
livelihoods in an inhospitable region, where doing that is literally a death sentence. So, all the hallmarks of a repetition of genocidal killings
is right there now in Darfur at the present time.
MACFARLANE: So, can we at this time call this genocide? And if we can, why are the U.N. and others being slow to label it as that?
KAPILA: Well, the problem is that for formal institutions like the United Nations, determination of genocide is -- requires a number of complicated
legal investigations and other steps to be taken. That is why the determination of genocide is always too late, because, by the time the
courts and governments and so on make the determination, the genocide is over. And this is what I experienced 20 years ago, when, afterwards,
everyone said it was genocide.
But when I said, it's happening right now, and I'm seeing it, and I'm the head of the U.N., nobody wanted to believe that. And, you know, at that
time, I was fortunate, because we had the Security Council functioning, and they did listen, and we had the world's support. But this time around, we
do not have any international authority that is kind of determining what is going on in the area.
And all the U.N. can do is call for the fighting to stop, which of course is a very reasonable thing to do, and to allow for humanitarian access. Who
can disagree with that? But quite honestly, these are meaningless calls in a context where the world has changed immensely over the last two decades.
MACFARLANE: And of course, adding to this urgency, our reports from the U.N. that sexual assaults have increased by 50 percent in the past four
months. Just to pick up on your point about accountability there, I mean, how -- and the experiences that you had in the past, I mean, how important
is it, maybe not just for the U.N. but for the ICC to be seeking accountability for these crimes right now, not just reporting the numbers,
as you say?
KAPILA: Well, the ICC would, if it could. But in order to do that, its investigators need access. And they need to collect their evidence,
because, you know, these are international criminal crimes. What that means is that the burden of proof to put in front of a court -- International
Court, is very high. And you have got to attribute individual crimes to individual perpetrators.
So, we can say that the killings in Darfur now are genocidal in nature, but that is not sufficient to bring a case against any individuals. And, in the
end, in the court, you have to go against individuals. You can go against a general pattern and you can go against command and control, but you have to
prove a link between what's going on individually on the ground, for example, the mass graves you mentioned, and those who ordered these mass
killings and then disposal of the bodies.
And by the way, the graves that have been discovered really convince me that these are genocidal killings because whenever you find mass graves,
and you saw this, we saw this, and I saw it with my own eyes in Srebrenica, for example, and in Rwanda and in Cambodia, you don't have mass graves
unless there's an orchestrated mass attempt to kill. And that means there is a degree of organization which turns the random violence of war into a
And in this case, we know it's ethically targeted because the victims all belong to the Mesuliyet or other African tribes or groups and the
perpetrators tend to be self-identified themselves as Arabs. So, all this just adds to the case that what we're witnessing now is a repeat of the
genocide of 20 years ago.
MACFARLANE: So, let me ask you this then because we know the international community have been overwhelmingly focused on efforts to broker pleas which
have repeatedly failed.
And we heard today from a top Sudanese official calling for a caretaker government to now be formed immediately. I mean, is that what's needed now?
Is negotiation still the only viable way out of this? Given, as you're saying, it's almost impossible for the ICC, for the U.N. to be operating on
the ground there?
KAPILA: Well, I think if you look at the experience of wars generally, wars always end. And they end in two ways. Either one side wins and then has
come -- and the other side has come to the negotiating table, or it is enforced from outside. This is what happened during the Second World War
and in other situations, as we've seen, where the Vietnamese intervention in Cambodia or the Tanzanian intervention in Uganda and so on.
Now, we have a situation now where, actually, there's a lot of fights still left in this conflict. Both sides have got a lot of resources and people,
and the battle is an existentialist one, and it is supported in different ways from external parties. So, they're receiving the encouragement. Now,
in that context, I think calling for peace is a little bit redundant, because peace only happens when one side or the other wants to actually
make it happen and the circumstances are not there at the present time.
And of course, you know, these are not the days where you can put in a U.N. peacekeeping force. I mean, 20 years ago, I asked for a U.N. peacekeeping
force and I got it. It was late because the genocide already happened. However, it was something to do in terms of protecting the remaining
victims and ensuring healing, to some extent at least, an incomplete job done, but I think attempt was made.
Today, I think there are no prospects for intervention, whether under the U.N. or the African Union, because countries are divided geopolitically and
also regionally within the Arab world and within, of course, the African continent. And, you know, today we see this with Niger. Interventions are a
double-edged weapon. We might actually make the situation worse if you go down a cack-handed route. But with what Malik Agar said --
MACFARLANE: Yes, we are -
KAPILA: -- what Malik Agar said, who I know from my previous dealings, that we need an interim government and we need -- it's important, because this
is the first time a senior politician of Sudanese origin, who has actually been there before -- because he was a leader of the SPLM --
MACFARLANE: Well, that's interesting to hear that you would back that suggestion. And as you say, I mean, this is not just playing out in the
Sudan region, in Niger as well, and other areas. It's been so important to have your perspective on this, given your experience 20 years ago. Mukesh
Kapila, thank you for your time today. We appreciate it.
KAPILA: Thank you.
MACFARLANE: Well, coming up later today, CNN's Chief International Investigative Correspondent, Nima Elbagir, will have an exclusive report on
violence in the Darfur region of Sudan. You can see her report at 4 P.M. in London, in New York, rather, 9 P.M. in London, right here on CNN. Stay with
us. More, after the break.
MACFARLANE: We're back with a groundbreaking app that allows people in Rwanda to take their health into their own hands. It's called Lifesten and
those who meet their fitness goals have access to their choice of rewards. But this technology takes it a step further. Users can also get real-time
readings on everything from blood pressure to body fat. CNN's Stephanie Busari has the details in today's "Inside Africa".
STEPHANIE BUSARI, CNN SENIOR EDITOR, AFRICA (voice-over): In Rwanda, illnesses like obesity, diabetes, and heart disease contribute around half
of all deaths. With a cleverly curated reward system, the Lifesten app aims to help users lead a healthier lifestyle, one incentive at a time.
UNKNOWN: You're able to see how many points you have, how many goals you have, how many minutes you've been active.
KELECHI OKORO AKA "THE HEALTHERTAINER", DOCTOR: When you work out, when you eat healthy, when you check up on your mental status every day, you get
points. And you get rewarded and the rewards are amazing.
BUSARI (voice-over): Dr. Kelechi Okoro, also known as "The Healthertainer" uses social media to promote health and well-being. She also uses Lifesten.
OKORO: For me as a health influencer and as a woman in tech, I'm always on my phone. So, what Lifesten is doing, is making you remember every single
time whenever you pick up your phone that hey, you need to take your health seriously. Oh nice.
BUSARI (voice-over): Its in-app rewards can be exchanged for real world benefits such as medicines, consultations, and even spa treatments at
facilities like this one.
OKORO. Holiday room.
STEPHEN OGWENO, CO-FOUNDER AND CEO, LIFESTEN HEALTH: The users can actually redeem their points from the app to get actual services like this and
continuously improve their health.
BUSARI (voice-over): Lifesten also offers one key additional feature.
UNKNOWN: So, it will take a quick 30-second scan.
BUSARI (voice-over): Transdermal optical imaging.
UNKNOWN: The camera and artificial intelligence will be able to analyze the blood flow under your skin and target various markers to be able to tell
you what your blood pressure is, what your body fat is, and what your other metabolic risk factors are.
BUSARI (voice-over): Simply upload an image of your face and the Lifesten app will do the rest. They call it, "Take a selfie, know you're healthy."
UNKNOWN: You can check your blood pressure. My blood pressure at the moment is 110 over 85, which is healthy.
BUSARI (voice-over): With transdermal imaging technology now in the palms of our hands, are we witnessing the future of self-care?
UNKNOWN: We know that one of the biggest reasons why people die from these chronic diseases is because of lack of early diagnosis. So, Lifesten
through this cutting-edge technology helps you to be able to get early diagnostics and also helps you to be able to then take control of your
MACFARLANE: Turning now to a miraculous rescue at sea.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MACFARLANE: Four Australian surfers who were saved after 38 hours in the waters say they are stoked to be alive. The search continues for an
Indonesian crew member who is still missing. A dramatic video shows the moment they were found floating on their surfboards. Their boat was caught
in a storm off the Indonesian coast Sunday.
UNKNOWN: So proud to be back home, you know.
UNKNOWN: And the boy is on land. The boys on this island.
UNKNOWN: Thank you so much, friends and family, for bringing us home safely.
UNKNOWN: Yeah, so stoked to be alive.
UNKNOWN: And yeah, so proud of everyone.
UNKNOWN: Sorry to put you guys through that, friends and family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACFARLANE: Well, the four were on the surf trip to celebrate a 30th birthday. Now, for as long as people have been working out, there have been
companies trying to invent new and improve ways to do it. Whether it's new types of fitness machines or the latest running shoes, the basic premise
has always remained the same. Lift more weight and go faster. But new tech companies want you to skip all that and work out in the virtual world.
MACFARLANE: As VR headsets hit the market, consumers are using the emerging technology to get their sweat on. Apps like FitXR and Holofit appeal to
exercisers by offering physical results in virtual reality. And now, U.K. tech startup Valkyrie Industries is bringing resistance training to the
metaverse without the need for heavy equipment. How? By stimulating the muscles with electricity instead of actual weight.
MACFARLANE: So, if you want to, you can go up in intensity. Wearing a headset, armbands, and two handheld devices, users experience the immersive
simulation of a workout without gym equipment. Although the reality is virtual, the resistance is real.
KOUROSH ATEFIPOUR, CEO, VALKYRIE INDUSTRIES: So, we use electro muscular stimulation, EMS for short, which fundamentally interacts with your muscles
to create that same electrical impulse that your brain perceives when you're holding a cup, a mug, a water bottle or a dumbbell, and we're
delivering that artificially through our wearables.
MACFARLANE: EMS contracts the muscles with electrical impulses sent through the armbands which responds to the user's intensity. The harder or faster
you pull hit and lift in virtual reality the greater the resistance you feel. EMS is nothing new. For decades, the technology has been used in
sports medicine for muscle training and to relieve pain.
ATEFIPOUR: We are one of the world's first devices to be combining electro- muscle stimulation actively in a virtual simulation.
MACFARLANE: Valkyrie Industries' product isn't the only tool in the fitness metaverse. Black Box VR developed a gym that pairs a resistance machine
with a VR headset. Other companies offer devices like augmented reality swim goggles for the pool, and exercises can use popular headsets like Meta
Quest to work up a sweat in fitness classes. Valkyrie hopes their product will continue to bring the convenience of the fitness metaverse to people's
ATEFIPOUR: We're not looking to replace the gym, but at least add value to what exercising is all about. You know, being able to work out from the
luxury of your home isn't just something that was for Covid.
MACFARLANE: As the Metaverse expands, companies are venturing into the fitness possibilities of computer-generated environments, one virtual bicep
curl at a time.
MACFARLANE: Love that. Now, in a move that likely won't endear American tourists to Parisians, two trunk U.S. tourists wound up trapped overnight
in the Eiffel Tower. Security guards found the guys sleeping Monday morning at the Paris landmark. The tower's operators are tough like day-old
baguettes and say they plan to press charges against the two men.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MACFARLANE: The Queen of Pop is feeling better and is about to hit the road. Madonna has rescheduled the summer show dates that were postponed
after she suffered a health scare in June. The singer was hospitalized to treat a bacterial infection and recovered at home. Now, the ticket company
Live Nation says Madonna will kick off the celebration tour in the U.K. and Europe in October as planned with the previously scheduled U.S. shows
honored afterwards. Some shows will be cancelled but Live Nation says Madonna hopes to make it up to those cities in the future.
Glad to hear she's back and on the road. Thank you so much for watching One World. I'm Christina Macfarlane. Stay tuned for Amanpour, coming up after