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One World with Zain Asher
Donald Trump Fighting For His Business Empire; California Governor Gavin Newsom Set To Appoint Laphonza Butler For The Remainder Of The Term; U.S. House Back In Session, Stakes For Speaker Kevin McCarthy Could Not Be Higher; Ukrainian Member Of Parliament Oleksiy Goncharenko Speaks On U.S. Support To Ukraine; LAPD Arrests Rapper Tupac Shakur's Murderer; NFL's New Superstar Fan Taylor Swift Makes Another Appearance At A Kansas City Chiefs Game. Aired 12-1p ET
Aired October 02, 2023 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
This is CNN breaking news.
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello everyone, live from New York, I'm Bianna Golodryga.
ZAIN ASHER, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: And I'm Zain Asher. This is One World. We want to begin inside a New York courtroom where Donald Trump is quite
literally fighting for his business empire as we speak. Trump, his adult sons, and his company are accused of grossly inflating the value of his
assets by billions of dollars.
GOLODRYGA: Prosecutors said that fraud was what drove this, and it allowed the Trump organization to get loans and insurance at greatly reduced rates.
The judge in the case has already ruled that the fraud actually happened and this trial is about figuring out how it happened, who is to blame and
what the penalty should be.
Opening statements for both sides have just wrapped up but just before court started, both the Attorney General and the former U.S. President
spoke about the case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LETITIA JAMES, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL: My message is simple. No matter how powerful you are, no matter how much money you think you may have, no
one is above the law. And it is my responsibility and my duty and my job to enforce it. The law is both powerful and fragile. And today in court, we
will prove our case.
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: This is a continuation of the single greatest witch hunt of all time. We have a rogue judge who rules that
properties are worth a tiny fraction, one 100, a tiny fraction of what they actually are. We have a racist attorney general who's a horror show who ran
on the basis that she was going to get Trump before she even knew anything about me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: So, let's dive even deeper with the legal implications. Let's bring in CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig. So, Ellie, on the one side,
you have the attorney general laying out her case, her legal case. You have the former president doing what he typically does and taking personal cheap
I'm not going to ask you to weigh in on that. But I do want you to weigh in on the case overall, because Trump, for years, has been able to exaggerate
and lie about his net worth and property values with impunity. This case changes all of that. Explain how so.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: It does, Bianna. So, first of all, this is a civil lawsuit. It's not a criminal case. And the gist of the
attorney general's allegations is that Donald Trump, over more than a decade, vastly overinflated the value of his assets.
Just to give you one quick example, when it comes to Mar-a-Lago, that had been assessed as a $20 million property. Donald Trump tried to claim that
it was worth about $500 million. And the allegation is Donald Trump then took those inflated numbers and used them to get bank loans and lines of
credit that he wouldn't otherwise have been able to get.
And so, if Donald Trump is found liable, and it's really important to note, he already has been found liable on one of the seven claims made in this
case. The judge here found last week that Donald Trump is liable for repetitive, persistent fraud. So, to that extent, Donald Trump has already
lost that one count.
There are still six other counts that are in play here. If he is found liable, then he will be hit with ultimately penalties, will be financial
penalties, and this could cause him to lose his certificate to do business in the state of New York, which would have implications elsewhere, as well.
ASHER: Elie, Zain here. Just talk to us a bit more about how we got to this point and the role of Michael Cohen in all of this in terms of him
testifying before Congress. Michael Cohen was instrumental for New York Attorney General Letitia James being able to bring this case.
HONIG: Yeah, Michael Cohen was the first person really to publicly speak about this. When he was testifying in front of Congress back in 2019, he
testified that Donald Trump and his businesses would routinely and systematically overinflate the value of their assets in order to get
And now Michael Cohen appears on the witness list for the attorney general. He could well testify in this trial. Presumably he would testify about just
that. Let's remember he was part of Donald Trump's inner circle, his business and legal inner circle.
On the other hand, Michael Cohen, of course, will be cross-examined aggressively. He despises Donald Trump. I think that's fair to say. And in
the meantime, since he made his first statements, he's pled guilty to various federal felonies, he's completed serving his time. So, he could be
a really important witness for the attorney general in this case.
GOLODRYGA: We've gotten used to seeing a former U.S. president appear in a courtroom. We know now that this case will likely run through December
22nd. How frequently can we expect to see Donald Trump actually make an appearance, and do you expect him to be a witness for either his own
defense or the prosecution?
HONIG: So, on the first question, because this is a civil case, he does not have to physically be present in the courtroom throughout. That's in
contrast to a criminal case. When those cases get tried, he does have to physically be there.
Now, as to the likelihood of him testifying, again, an important difference. In a criminal case, a prosecutor cannot force a defendant to
take the stand. But this is a civil case, and so the parties can compel each other, can subpoena each other, and force each other to take the
stand. If that happens to Donald Trump, then he has two choices.
One, he can testify and perhaps suffer the consequences. Two, is he can take the fifth. He can evoke his right against self-incrimination. But if
he does that, in the court we're in here, New York Civil Court, the judge can consider that Fifth Amendment invocation against Donald Trump. Again,
because we're in a civil lawsuit context.
ASHER: All right, Elie Honig, live for us there. Thank you so much. All right, let's take a closer look at what exactly is unfolding in that
courtroom. CNN's Political Director, David Chalian. Do we have David Chalian? I just saw Lauren Fox up there. David, are you there? Can you hear
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR, David Chalian. Yes, I can.
GOLODRYGA: I can confirm.
ASHER: Hi, David. Wow. What a day.
CHALIAN: I could do a Lauren Fox impersonation, but it won't go very well.
ASHER: What a day today. I mean, I think that, you know, a lot of people have been talking about this idea that this was really a campaign event for
Donald Trump. When he was in the hallways in the courtroom, when he addressed the cameras, one of the first things he said was, you know, I
just want everyone to know my financial statements are phenomenal. Really speaking to this idea that him being wealthy, his money, all of that is a
huge part of Donald Trump's identity.
CHALIAN: It's central to his identity, both his political identity and his public identity, but also in everything you know, have learned about Donald
Trump from any expert around who have spent time with him. It's also central to his own sort of personal psychological identity, as well.
So, all of that was wrapped up, but you are right to note that this was a campaign event wrapped inside of this civil trial because, you know, as
Elie was saying, with the criminal indictments, guys, he was required to show up. And what did they learn, the Trump team?
They learned how to make lemonade out of lemons. Nobody wants to be criminally indicted. Nobody wants to face four of them across 91 felony
charges here. But that's the position Donald Trump had found himself in.
And so, what they tried to do was lean into that, play the role of victim, fundraise off of it, energize his base of supporters around it and they saw
they had tremendous success doing so. His poll numbers went up and he blotted out the sun in terms of attention. The entire story of the 2024
presidential race over the many months of his four indictments were, was just Donald Trump. You didn't -- none of his opponents had oxygen.
And so, what the Trump team has learned is let's continue that. Even though he's not being indicted anymore and there will be a lull in terms of
awaiting for trials to start, where can we maximize this kind of attention to sort of cut off the oxygen of any political opponent?
And showing up in New York when you're not required to do so at a civil trial like this to take on a political opponent in Tish James is precisely
the kind of thing they want to be doing to execute on that strategy to dominate the information flow.
GOLODRYGA: So, David, let me pick up on that, because yes, it is sort of his persona that he is this strong, business savvy billionaire who sort of
defied real estate in New York City, even though most New York real estate experts would say that wasn't the case. Given everything that you have laid
out, given these four indictments, 91 charges have only seen his poll numbers increase thus far.
I remember in 2016 during the debates with Hillary Clinton after that blockbuster reporting, showing that he did not pay income tax for years.
When Hillary addressed that, he said, yeah, that makes me smart. And that actually boosted his standing with his supporters. Do you expect this to
have any sort of negative impact among Republicans at this point or undecided Republican-leaning voters?
CHALIAN: I don't expect a ton of negative impact among Republican voters. And we should note, you've got to talk about Donald Trump when you're
talking about him politically, both in the context of a primary and then in the context of a general election. They're two totally different things.
But in the context of the primary, Bianna, as you know, there's clearly a swath of the Republican Party open to a Trump alternative. Some are
refusing to support Trump, a small minority. Some are considering Donald Trump but open to considering others, as well.
And if you add all those folks up who are considering or opposed to Trump or considering an alternative even if they're with him, that gets to
roughly half the party if not more. And so that's what his opponents are trying to appeal to.
Do I think today is going to do anything to damage Donald Trump more significantly with those voters?
Not much. I really don't. Do I think that the totality of his legal woes damage Donald Trump more significantly with those voters? Not, not much. I
really don't. Do I think that the totality of his legal woes makes him a flawed general election candidate? I do, which is not to say that he can't
beat Joe Biden if he's the nominee and win.
We're a closely divided nation. We're very polarized, and this election will likely be decided by just tens of thousands of people in a few key
states. He can win, I'm not suggesting that, but he will be flawed in the eyes of independent voters, which can be key to his success in a general
election context. Right now, for the short term, all of this prosecution that he is turning into persecution, that's working for him in a primary.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, and as we noted, this case, this case in particular, will go on through the end of the year and the others will begin starting next
year. David Chalian, thank you so much.
CHALIAN: Thanks guys.
ASHER: All right, still to come here on One World, the civil war inside the U.S. Republican Party. After striking a deal to keep the government open,
can Kevin McCarthy hold on to his Speaker's gavel? That is the big question right now.
GOLODRYGA: Plus, the governor of California found a replacement for the late Senator Dianne Feinstein's seat and she wasn't even campaigning for
the spot. We'll tell you more about her story coming up next.
GOLODRYGA: Well, the late Dianne Feinstein's senate seat will soon be filled. California Governor Gavin Newsom is set to appoint Laphonza Butler
for the remainder of the term.
He said there are no conditions placed on the appointment and the decision to run for a full term is entirely hers.
ASHER: And Butler is the president of EMILY's List, which is an organization that supports abortion rights. Here is Butler speaking at the
National "We Are EMILY" Gala back in May about empowering women.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAPHONZA BUTLER, PRESIDENT, EMILY'S LIST: Since the dawn of patriarchy, women have had their power stolen. Time and again, we have been told what
we can and cannot do, what choices we can and cannot make about our lives and our futures, but time and again we have come together across race and
across place to respond to questions about our rights with clarity and resolve. Our bodies belong to us, our freedoms are not up for debate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: History being made here when appointed Butler will actually become the third black female senator in U.S. history and according to Newsom, the
first lesbian black woman to join Congress in U.S. history, as well.
All right, the U.S. House is back in session this hour, and the stakes for its Speaker, Kevin McCarthy, could not be higher. So much going on here.
GOLODRYGA: He is facing a revolt from some House Republicans, to say the least, and they're angry that he worked with Democrats on the deal, which
narrowly avoided a government shutdown last weekend. Florida Republican Matt Gaetz told CNN's Jake Tapper that he plans to call a vote soon on
ousting McCarthy, but the House Speaker says he's not worried. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATT GAETZ, U.S. HOUSE REPUBLICAN: I think we need to move on with new leadership that can be trustworthy.
KEVIN MCCARTHY, U.S. HOUSE REPUBLICAN: So be it, bring it on, let's get over with it and let's start governing. If he's upset because he tried to
push us in a shutdown and I made sure government didn't shut down, then let's have that fight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: When Democrats and Republicans got together this weekend to pass a bill to keep the U.S. government running, it was a pretty big surprise.
ASHER: It was a major surprise. We were expecting pretty much the opposite. That's because there has been so little the two parties could agree upon
this year so far. I want to actually show you a stunning number 14, there it is on your screen.
That is how many laws and resolutions have actually made it through the Republican-controlled House and the Democratic-controlled Senate to be
signed by the President this year. Fourteen, and if you actually think that 14 is a small number, you're right.
On average, Congress should have passed about 70 laws and resolutions at this point on the calendar. Fourteen is the smallest number of bills to
make it to the President's desk in at least 50 years.
GOLODRYGA: I think that's why the Congress' approval rating is covering around that number, as well. And against that backdrop, consider this,
Congress is facing another deadline to keep the government open. The deal they reached this weekend only keeps the lights on through November 17th.
And that stopgap bill has caused a revolt in the Republican Party, meaning there may only be days left with Kevin McCarthy as Speaker of the House.
ASHER: All right, let's get more on this with Nathan Gonzalez, editor of Inside Elections. Nathan, thank you so much for being with us. In terms of
Kevin McCarthy being able to keep his job -- keep his role as a speaker, absolutely he needs Democrats to vote in his favor. Is he going to get
NATHAN GONZALEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, we have to remember that he entered the speakership in a very precarious political position, right? I
mean, it took, you know, all night votes in order and multiple votes in order for him to get there. So, determining him to be safe would be risky.
But I think what we have to remember is that Congressman Gates and some of the most conservative members of the Republican caucus get the most
attention. But there are other more moderate or mainstream Republicans who are upset with Gates. And they're like, enough of this. Like, we just need
to move on because this is a giant distraction.
Democrats or Republicans would rather be focusing on President Biden or Hunter Biden or the situation at the southern border or all sorts of other
issues but right now there's a lot of a you know a lot of the media in the U.S. are focusing on Republicans can't get their act together and Trump
being on trial and that is that is not helping Republicans politically.
GOLODRYGA: On the flipside of what Zain just said, the Democrats needing to save Kevin McCarthy if in fact, a motion to vacate is voted on, you could
also say that Matt Gaetz will rely on Democrats to oust the speaker, if that is in fact what will happen.
From what you're hearing, do you see many Democrats, I know that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez over the weekend said that she intends to do that, but it
appears there may be some Democrats that may not be willing to do that just yet.
GONZALEZ: Right, what you're seeing are two divided parties amongst themselves. Republicans aren't all on the same page about keeping Speaker
McCarthy and Democrats aren't all on the same page about whether to get rid of him. Because again, I think Democrats, in some ways it's the devil
McCarthy might be the devil you know rather than the devil that you don't know. Because if McCarthy is ousted, there isn't a clear alternative.
There's mention of Congressman Tom Emmer of Minnesota. But that's not a guarantee. And he said he has no interest in the job because it has to be
one of the toughest jobs in Washington, D.C., right now. So, I would assume that we go on the status quo until proven otherwise. But McCarthy is day by
day or even minute by minute trying to put out fires on Capitol Hill.
ASHER: And Nathan, as you're speaking, we're actually looking at live picture on the floor of Matt Gaetz speaking. He's apparently attacking
Kevin McCarthy. One of the things that he said over the weekend -- actually, I'm being told that we are going to listen to Matt Gaetz
speaking. Let's roll it.
(LIVE COVERAGE BEGINS)
GAETZ: The majority of the majority, certainly on something as consequential as Ukraine. So, for all the crocodile tears about what may
happen later this week about a motion to vacate, working with the Democrats is a yellow brick road that has been paved by Speaker McCarthy. Whether it
was the debt limit deal, the CR, or now the secret deal on Ukraine.
Third, this is swampy log rolling. The American people deserve single subject bills. I get that a lot of folks might disagree with my
perspectives on the border or on Ukraine. But could we at least agree that no matter how you feel about Ukraine or the southern border, they each
deserve the dignity of their own consideration and should not be rolled together where they might pass, where each individually wouldn't?
This is what we're trying to get away from. This is the spirit of the January agreement we made with the Speaker. No more lashing these disparate
issues together so that the American people's interests are subjugated here on the floor of the House.
You know how we should stand up for our border, demand that the United States Senate take up our single subject appropriation bill that funded the
border. It created Republican unity. We voted for it. It has the policy demands that the continuing resolution that Speaker McCarthy advocated for
on this floor, did not.
Our DHS funding bill requires E-Verify. And then hours later after we passed that, the Speaker wanted us to vote for a continuing resolution that
didn't include E-Verify. Retreat is never a strategy to win anything.
So, Mr. Speaker, just tell us. Just tell us. What was in the secret Ukraine side deal? What commitments were made to President Biden to continue the
spending of President Biden in exchange for doing things for President Biden. It is becoming increasingly clear who the Speaker of the House
already works for, and it's not the Republican Conference.
Mr. Speaker, I would ask that these questions be answered soon, because there may be other votes coming today or later this week that could be
implicated by the answers to these questions. Members of the Republican Party might vote differently on a motion to vacate if they heard what the
speaker had to share with us about his secret side deal with Joe Biden on Ukraine. I'll be listening. Stay tuned. And I yield back.
UNKNOWN: The gentleman yields back. Now, members are reminded to refrain from engaging in personalities towards the President and to direct their
remarks to the Chair.
(LIVE COVERAGE ENDS)
GOLODRYGA: We've just been listening to Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz speaking on the floor there, talking about what looks like is inevitable
this week, and that is a call for a motion to vacate which would then set off 48 hours before we could see an actual vote take place for Kevin
McCarthy to be voted out as Speaker of the House.
Now, this is something that they had been dangling over him, basically saying, hey, Kevin, we own you. And yet that was a pretty ballsy move --
GOLODRYGA: An unexpected move that we saw from Speaker McCarthy over the weekend.
ASHER: A lot of resentment from Matt Gaetz for working with Democrats.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, working with Democrats. Matt Gaetz is trying to obviously appeal to more Republicans to join his side. He does need more Republicans'
vote to vote if in fact a motion to vacate does come up for a vote.
I want to bring back in Nathan Gonzalez. So, Nathan, what stood out to you? You know, it's interesting because over the weekend, Matt Gaetz said that
this wasn't personal between him and the Speaker. The Speaker believes that it is indeed personal and it's hard to argue that it's not when you listen
to some of the things that he says about him.
GONZALEZ: I think a warning sign is if someone says it's not personal then it's absolutely personal. I think we've -- we're way -- we're way beyond
that. A couple things stuck out to me. One is that Gaetz tying the removal of the Speaker to the -- to Ukraine aid, is an important factor because
there are more Republicans who are skeptical about more aid to Ukraine than wanting to remove McCarthy from the Speakership.
So, that's probably a politically good move for Gaetz because there's more popularity in limiting that aid to Ukraine. But still, I would come back to
there are, for example, there are 18 Republicans who are currently representing that aid to Ukraine.
But still, I would come back to there are, for example, there are 18 Republicans who are currently representing congressional districts that Joe
Biden won in 2020. So, these are Democratic districts. They don't want to be or can't be seen as just in lockstep with Matt Gaetz and the most
conservative elements of the Republican Party.
So, in McCarthy today, I believe, CNN's Manu Raju has some reporting about McCarthy talking, being more open about working with Democrats and kind of
calling Matt Gaetz bluff. And so, I almost believe McCarthy -- take McCarthy at his word, at least right now, to say, hey, you know, let's just
have this vote and get -- and be done with it, even if he has these Democrats in order to get to survive.
ASHER: Yeah, he's been saying all along, bring it. And over the weekend, we heard Matt Gaetz basically saying, listen, we want a speaker who is
trustworthy. But to your point, they would have to have a speaker who appeals to both the moderate Republicans and also hardliners, as well. And
that is going to be very difficult to find. Nathan Gonzalez, live for us there. Thank you so much.
GONZALEZ: Thank you.
ASHER: We'll be right back for more.
ASHER: All right, welcome back. I'm Zain Asher. And I'm Bianna Golodryga. Opening arguments for both sides have wrapped up in Donald Trump's civil
fraud trial taking place inside a Manhattan courtroom today.
A judge has already ruled that the former U.S. President, his two oldest sons, and executives at his company repeatedly lied about the value of
financial assets as a way of getting better terms on loan agreements and insurance policies.
ASHER: And now, the New York Attorney General is seeking $250 million in damages. In this case, it's actually possible that Trump may be prevented
from doing business in New York State. I want to bring in CNN Political Analyst John Avalon to talk more about this.
And John, we talked to David Chalian earlier in this hour who said that Trump and his team have been pretty effective in making turning lemons into
lemonades, given, you know, we've got four indictments, 91 counts against this president.
And now we've got this trial, which could be the end to his business empire, as he knows it in New York, at least. Talk about your perspective
on the impact that has on him politically within the primaries.
Well, I think you need to separate that the politics from the actual impact in this particular trial. You know, I think what David Chalian was speaking
of his lemons into lemonade with regard to four indictments on over 80 counts regarding to his actions as president.
This civil trial and the initial statement made by the judge finding sweeping and persistent fraud goes to the heart of his business empire and
to the perceptions related to the presidency ultimately, which is that he is a massively successful businessman.
What this judge seems to have found in the documentation is persistent inflation of values in the billions of dollars. And the punitive nature of
this in the civil trial, not going to a jury, by the way, could cripple his ability to do business in New York, which is where the Trump empire began,
in addition to potentially $250 million judgment or more.
This really cuts to the heart of Trump's self-styled status as a fabulously successful businessman and could cripple his ability - business' ability to
operate in New York, his one-time home state going forward. That's not political. That's practical, and it goes straight to the heart of his ego,
hits him in the wallet.
ASHER: From the perspective of -- John, Zain, here -- from the perspective of the seven or eight other sort of GOP presidential candidates. They're
looking at this and, of course, they're secretly hoping that somehow with all the legal woes facing Donald Trump -- that somehow he will fall on his
sword and one of them can sort of rise up as the heir apparent in terms of becoming the nominee. That's not going to happen, right? I mean, give us
your take. What are your thoughts on that?
JOHN AVALON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I am decidedly not in the camp that anything is preordained in politics. Donald Trump has a commanding
lead in the polls. He has a lock grip on the base of the Republican Party. But that base that would follow him, no matter what he does apparently in
some polling, is around a third of the Republican Party, around 10 percent of the American people.
Around a quarter of the Republican Party is opposed to Donald Trump, would not support him. And the rest are persuadable. So, we need to keep in mind
when we start prognosticating about that the future that people don't vote until January.
I'm not saying it's like -- that any one contender has risen to a likely person who could topple Donald Trump at this point. And polls show, at
least in terms of electability, Nikki Haley is the person who does best against Joe Biden compared to, say, Donald Trump.
But we don't see any voting in the Republican primaries till January of next year. So, treating this as a done deal, foregone conclusion, Donald
Trump's going to be the nominee, I think, is putting the cart ahead of the horse, frankly.
GOLODRYGA: John, what does it say on Trump's hold on the Republican Party and certain members of Congress, including Speaker Kevin McCarthy, given
his rather surprising turnaround at the last minute, the 11th hour there, working out a deal with Democrats to keep the government open at least for
another 45 days?
We know that Donald Trump was really being loud in demanding that he thinks the government should shut down and yet that's not what took place. How
much should we read into that?
AVALON: Well, you should read into it that Kevin McCarthy did the right thing vis-a-vis keeping the government open. And his speakership, despite
this sort of extortionary threats from Matt Gaetz we heard just a few moments ago on the floor of Congress.
Donald Trump doesn't have the responsibility of governing. He didn't really take the responsibility of governing that seriously when he was in
government. He's a grand standard. He's a showman.
And I think the question is when will people in the Republican Party in positions of leadership and responsibility act like leaders who are intent
on being responsible more consistently.
Let's be honest. His grip on the Republican Party and many members of the Republican Party elected officials is not through moral suasion, it's
through fear and greed. Fear of the base and fear that these folks might lose a closed partisan primary, which is about the only time they could
possibly lose power if they stand up to Donald Trump.
In private, most don't respect him. They don't support him. But they have been cowed into lining up behind him, cowed into possibly lose power if
they stand up to Donald Trump.
In private, most don't respect him. They don't support him. But they've been cowed into lining up behind him, cowed into silence. So, the more
Republicans start on the Hill, start straightening their civic back, but on having this blind to do what they think is right, or God forbid in the
national interest, the more there might be more daylight between them and Donald Trump.
ASHER: His grip on the Republican Party is interesting when you think about the fact that the Republican candidates who were very Trumpy and who
believed that the 2020 election was stolen were the ones who didn't actually do as well as other people had been expecting in the midterms.
And now, we've seen this dramatic about-face where Donald Trump's grip on the Republican Party is tighter than ever, which I think a lot of people do
find surprising. John Avlon, we have to leave it there. Thank you so much.
AVLON: All right.
GOLODRYGA: Thanks, John.
AVLON: You're welcome.
ASHER: All right, still to come. One of Ukraine's greatest allies could be able to get -- might be about to get, a pro-Kremlin leader. And that's the
latest on Slovakia's parliamentary election. We'll explain just ahead.
ASHER: All right. The decision by U.S. Congress to temporarily freeze aid for Ukraine in its Stopgap Funding Bill is getting reaction from Moscow.
The move is part of a deal to keep the U.S. government from shutting down.
GOLODRYGA: Now, the Kremlin says it expects Washington to continue to support Kyiv, but says it is a sign of increasing divisions in the West.
Spokesman Dmitry Peskov predicts that fatigue with the conflict will grow and fragment support for Ukraine. Despite Moscow's warnings, E.U. foreign
ministers are convening in Kyiv today in a dramatic show of support for Ukraine. It is the first time the bloc has ever held its meetings in a
country that is actually outside the European Union.
GOLODRYGA: Ukraine's foreign minister called it a historic event. E.U.'s foreign policy chief, Joseph Burrell, says Ukraine's future lies within the
E.U. and vowed to stand by Ukraine's side for quote, as long as it takes.
ASHER: Voters in Slovakia are waiting to hear who will lead their next government and the results could seriously impact the region and beyond.
The party of former Prime Minister Robert Fico, a pro-Kremlin politician, received the highest percentage of votes in the parliamentary election over
GOLODRYGA : But Fico's populist party needs the support of at least two other parties to govern. So, coalition-building efforts are now underway.
Fico campaigned on a pledge to end military aid to Ukraine and stop Kyiv from joining NATO.
And what's happening in Slovakia has far-reaching consequences for Kyiv, and it's just one of many seriously complicating factors facing Ukrainian
President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. The implications of all of this will be warmly received by the Kremlin.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, with the population of five and a half million people and both a member of the E.U. and NATO, Slovakia was among a handful of
European countries pushing for tough EU sanctions against Russia. It's already donated Kyiv a large amount of military hardware. But under a
Robert Fico coalition, that is likely to change.
On the campaign trail, he pledged to cut off military aid to Ukraine and repeated Russian President Vladimir Putin's false narrative of blaming
Ukrainian Nazis and fascists for the start of the conflict in 2014. The poll suggests Fico's pro-Russia sentiments are shared by many Slovaks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT FICO, SMER-SSD LEADER (through translator): Slovakia and the people in Slovakia have bigger problems than Ukraine. We do not change anything
about the fact that we are ready to help Ukraine humanitarianly. We are ready to help in the restoration of the state. But our opinion on arming
Ukraine does not change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: And all of this comes just hours after American lawmakers delivered Ukraine with yet another blow. Their stopgap budget to avoid a government
shutdown dropped all military assistance to Keeve at the insistence of hardline Republicans. The White House is now trying to push through a
standalone bill offering aid to Ukraine worth more than $20 billion, but that's likely to face Republican opposition.
ASHER: Well, time now for The Exchange, and we want to talk more about some of the challenges facing Ukraine. Let's bring in Oleksiy Goncharenko. He is
a Ukrainian member of parliament for the Odessa region and joins us from the capital of Kyiv.
Oleksiy, thank you so much for taking the time. Obviously, a lot of focus on what's happening in Europe and what's happening in Washington, D.C.,
with a stopgap measure put into place to keep the U.S. government open, but strikingly omitting $6 billion in aid for Ukraine. Now, President Biden
says that overwhelming support for Ukraine still exists, and that money will come in the future.
But it is symbolic that that money was omitted to get a deal done. Speaker McCarthy also says that he supports Ukraine, but not at the expense of U.S.
Border Patrol and safety. What is your response to that, now that it seems to have turned into somewhat of a binary issue? Support U.S. borders or
help support Ukraine?
OLEKSIY GONCHARENKO, UKRAINIAN MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: Hello. First of all, I think that is a false choice. With all respect, I think that U.S. borders
should be secured. It's a question of the United States of America and its people, and they're absolutely capable to do this. But to have secure
United States and secure world, there is a need to support Ukraine.
Because without this, if Ukraine would fail, and Ukraine will fail without United States support to Putin, to Russia, then Russia emboldened Putin
will attack, and he will go further, and he will attack European countries as he wants to rebuild Russian Empire and Soviet Union, how he sees it. And
then it will be already American soldiers and officers fighting against Russian army.
Today, no one American soldier or officer is taking part in this war. We don't have any boots on the ground and United States can prevent this awful
scenario of a really third world war just by financial and military support to Ukraine, which is, I think, the best possible option and one of the best
investments in American history with just three percent of United States military budget, Ukrainian army destroyed 50 percents of conventional
weaponry potential of second biggest rival of the United States and the world after China, Russia.
ASHER: Oleksiy, Zain here. What would you say to American lawmakers -- American Republican lawmakers to convince them of that.
Because there is this perception among the GOP, especially hardline GOP members, Republican lawmakers, that the war in Ukraine is not their
problem, that the war in Ukraine is Ukraine's problem, and that America has already done enough, borderline done too much.
You're pointing out the fact that, listen, if Ukraine loses this war, if America allows Ukraine to lose this war, there are far-reaching
consequences for the entire world, that the international rules-based order is in jeopardy. How would you convince Republican lawmakers of that
GONCHARENKO: First of all, as I told you, this is a great investment by securing and keeping alive American soldiers and officers. Just imagine,
like I met one American officer -- marine, he said that for all his life -- he's now retired, but he said all my life I was preparing for the war with
Soviet Union and with Russia.
And now you're stopping Russia without anyone, American soldiers and officers, involved in the killing. I think that is great. Secondly, what I
would tell -- to lawmakers from the Republican side, what would President Reagan say about what they're doing today? Those who are attacking support
Thirdly, what I would say, if Putin will continue his aggression, the whole Europe will be in mess. And Europe is the biggest trade partner of the
United States of America. So, millions of jobs in the United States are dependent from what's going on in Europe.
All states of the United States of America, their biggest trade partner is European Union and what will be with the United States, with the economy of
the United States, if Putin will disrupt Europe, how he wants to do this.
And finally, what I would say, United States showed leadership and already spent more than $100 billion in support of Ukraine. So, to stop now means
just to throw out this money. They will be just wasted money. And that is a very, very bad and very strange decision to make.
GOLODRYGA: Oleksiy, so to you first point, I would just say some may argue that this perhaps isn't Ronald Reagan's Republican Party anymore. But to
speak to the latter point, you know, this goes beyond just Washington.
As we read into this introduction for your segment, a pro-Russian leader has now been poised to head Slovakia's coalition government. He's now
joining Serbia and Hungary as democratic countries that seem to have leaders that are very sympathetic to Vladimir Putin and to Russia.
Slovakia is the country that I believe gave Ukraine its first fighter jets in this war. Why do you think that sentiment is changing rather quickly for
voters, not only in the United States, but also European allies?
GONCHARENKO: First of all, don't forget that Russia invests huge money in this, especially when we're speaking about Slovakian elections. Russia
clearly interfered in these elections, and they did all they can to move pro-Russian forces there, and they will continue to do this. And that is a
big challenge and danger.
Secondly, I don't think that we can say about some big change. This party in Slovakia took 23 percent, and it's not even clear for the moment will
they form the government, or maybe not. So, we can't say this is majority. The mainstream is in support of Ukraine. But yes, many people already got
used to what's going on.
Many people are tired. But believe me, more than Ukrainians, nobody is tired more than us. We are very tired with this war. But the only way to
finish it is to win it. And there's all other scenarios will put the world into a position of a jungle where the tyrannies are hunting peaceful
Just imagine what will think Chairman Xi if Putin would have any success in Ukraine, Taiwan and other countries and other places and will be in a huge
danger. And the United States of America would not have a possibility to just ignore this.
ASHER: Oleksiy Goncharenko, thank you so much for being with us.
GONCHARENKO: Thank you.
ASHER: As you point out, nobody is tired. Nobody is more tired than Ukraine, given everything they've been through.
ASHER: All right, we'll be right back with more.
GOLODRYGA: Well, this was a big story on Friday. Tupac Shakur's stepbrother is calling the arrest of Duane Keith Davis bittersweet. His remarks come
after a grand jury indicted Davis on charges of murder in connection with the 1996 killing of the rapper. CNN's Josh Campbell walks us through this
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The murder of Tupac Shakur, a mystery leading to endless speculation and conspiracy theories for
decades since the rapper was gunned down in Las Vegas in 1996.
He was in Las Vegas on September 7th, 1996 for the Mike Tyson Bruce Seldon boxing match and was shot four times while riding in the passenger seat of
a black BMW alongside death row record CEO Suge Knight. Just 25 years old, Shakur died six days later. His killer or killers were never apprehended.
But tonight, a breakthrough in the investigation.
JASON JOHANSSON, LIEUTENANT, LAS VEGAS POLICE DEPARTMENT: We are here today to announce the arrest of 60-year-old Duane Keith Davis, AKA "Keefe D" for
the murder of Tupac Shakur.
CAMPBELL (voice-over): Las Vegas Police say Davis was the leader and quote, "shot caller" of the South Side Compton Crips, a gang that had an ongoing
feud with the street gang closely affiliated, police say, with Suge Knight. According to police, it was this fight, captured on surveillance video from
a Las Vegas hotel, between Orlando Anderson, another member of the South Side Compton Crips, and members of Death Row Records that police say
ultimately led to Shakur's death.
JOHANSSON: That's when Duane Davis began to devise a plan to obtain a firearm and retaliate against Suge Knight and Mr. Shakur.
CAMPBELL (voice-over): The plan police say was for Davis Anderson and two others to ride together in a white Cadillac and hunt down night and Knight
and Shakur as they made their way to a Las Vegas nightclub.
JOHANSSON: As they were driving west on Flamingo Road near Koval, they located the black BMW, which was driven by Suge Knight and in the passenger
seat was Tupac Shakur. They pulled up near the passenger side of that vehicle and immediately began shooting at Mr. Knight and Mr. Shakur.
Following that shooting, the white Cadillac fled the area.
CAMPBELL (voice-over): Davis is the only surviving suspect police say and ultimately it was his own words that reignited the investigation. Davis
describing the moment he says he handed Anderson, whom he calls Lane, a gun while riding in the white Cadillac in audio featured in the documentary,
"Murder Rap: Inside the Biggie and Tupac Murders". I
DUANE KEITH DAVIS, ARRESTED IN THE KILLING OF TUPAC SHAKUR: I gave it to Dre, and Dre was like, no, no. And Lane was like, you fuck (ph).
CAMPBELL (ph): Davis told a similar story during a BET interview in 2018.
JOHANSSON: It wasn't until 2018 that this case was reinvigorated as additional information came to light related to this homicide.
Specifically, Duane Davis' own admissions to his involvement in this homicide investigation that he provided to numerous different media
CAMBELL (voice-over): For family and fans of Shakur, Davis' arrest is bittersweet after waiting and agonizing 27 years for answers to the murder
of an artist who impacted the lives of so many in the music industry.
MOSPREME SHAKURE, BROTHER OF TUPAC SHAKUR: I miss my brother. So, you know, I'm glad something's happening. We're glad something's happening.
CAMPBELL (on-camera): Now, CNN is attempting to locate attorney information for both Davis and Suge Knight. Finally, we learned an interesting detail
on Friday. A retired Los Angeles Police Department officer who worked this investigation told our colleague, Jake Tapper, that Davis had allegedly
confessed to police back in 2009.
However, that took place during what's called a proffer session. That is, when a prosecutor meets with a defendant, they agree to gather useful
information from a witness or defendant, but that information can't be used against that person.
This former LAPD officer saying it wasn't until later once Davis started speaking publicly about this case that authorities had what he believed
they needed to charge him. Josh Campbell, CNN, Los Angeles.
ASHER: All right, the NFL's new superstar fan, Taylor Swift, who else am I talking about, has just made another appearance at a Kansas City Chiefs
game. Swift, who is rumored, we still don't know for sure, but rumored to be dating tight end Travis Kelce, attended the team's game against the New
York Jets on Sunday.
GOLODRYGA: She sure isn't shutting down these rumors, if it's only a rumor. Swift brought along some of her famous friends, including Blake Lively,
Ryan Reynolds, and Sophie Turner. Fans are certainly enchanted by her support for the Chiefs.
You know what's fascinating is that she seems to bring this swift diplomacy, like my dinner table discussion last night had my seven-year-old
talking football with my 11-year-old son about Taylor Swift, so --
ASHER: I think Travis Kelce got a lot more famous over the past couple of weeks.
ASHER: Well, thanks to this young lady, Taylor Swift.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, football fans are like, hey, he's a big deal, too, you know.
ASHER: All right, that does it for this hour of One World. I'm Zain Asher.
GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga. Thank you so much for watching. Amanpour is next.