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One World with Zain Asher

Mass Shooting Suspect In Maine Still On The Loose; Sources Say Hamas Controls Israel Supplies; Mike Johnson Becomes New House Speaker; China Launches Its Youngest Ever Crew On A Mission To Its Space Station. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired October 26, 2023 - 12:00   ET



BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello everyone, live from New York, I'm Bianna Golodryga.

ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Zain Asher. We're following major breaking news this hour. The suspect who slaughtered 18 people at a bowling alley

and a restaurant last night in Maine is still on the loose, as I speak. A desperate manhunt underway across the state to track him down. Fear

completely gripping the quiet community of Lewiston this afternoon.

GOLODRYGA: Police have ordered residents to shelter in place as they try to locate the suspect, who is 40-year-old Robert Card. Card is a firearm

instructor and a member of the U.S. Army Reserve. They consider him armed and dangerous. As a manhunt continues, residents tell CNN, they are on



CORY, LISBON, MAINE RESIDENT: My wife, she normally gets off from work, she came and grabbed me, and was like, hey, there is an active shooter and

he's parked down where you go fishing at. Nerves rattled right now, keeping an eye on the woods because I know those woods down there, they go run way

back here and I got my daughter inside. It's very unnerving right now.


GOLODRYGA: CNN's Omar Jimenez takes a closer look at how the mass shooting unfolded, and the heartbreak being felt across the state of Maine.


OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A manhunt is underway after police say a gunman opened fire at a restaurant and bowling alley, in Lewiston, Maine.

POLICE: We got multiple victims, (INAUDIBLE), multiple victims. I need every unit you can find.

JIMENEZ: One witness describes people running from the bowling alley.

UNKNOWN: There is -- kids. Looking back, like, that was probably the hardest part being -- just seeing families pouring out of there. And

knowing that that happened and they were just probably trying to have a family night.

JIMENEZ: The Lewiston Police Department has named 40-year-old Robert Card, who they warned is armed and dangerous.

MIKE SAUSCHUCK, COMMISSIONER, MAINE DEPT. OF PUBLIC SAFETY: We have literally hundreds of police officers working around the state of Maine to

investigate this case, to locate Mr. Card.

JIMENEZ: The Androscoggin County Sheriff's Office released several surveillance photos of the man holding a high-powered assault-style rifle,

and warning those in the Lewiston and other nearby areas to shelter in place.

SAUSCHUCK: Card is considered armed and dangerous. If people see him, they should not approach Card or make contact with him in any way.

JIMENEZ: Law enforcement officials tell CNN that that Card is a certified firearms instructor and a member of the U.S. Army Reserve. The officials

say Card suffered with mental health issues including hearing voices. He also recently made threats to carry out a shooting at a National Guard

facility in Maine.

Lewiston Police following the shootings, shared this image of a small white SUV found in nearby Lisbon, Maine. The state police confirmed to CNN the

image is of the suspect's car. The shootings have shaken this community about 36 miles of Portland, with Lewiston mayor saying in a statement, "I'm

heartbroken for our city and our people. The mayor of nearby Auburn, Maine echoed that state of shock."

JASON LEVESQUE, AUBURN, MAINE MAYOR: I mean, at this point, there's a significant amount of shock going on with people that were actually

witnesses. Obviously, when I was bringing people in who were looking for their loved ones, there's fear, there's panic.

JIMENEZ: Local officials say hospitals are overwhelmed as they handle a mass casualty event.

ROBERT MCCARTHY, LEWISTON CITY COUNCILOR: The two hospitals have called in every off-duty staff member that they could to deal with this. We are a

town of about 39,000. Our hospitals are not geared to handle this kind of shooting event. And they're doing the best we can.


ASHER: That was Omar Jimenez there. I want to bring in CNN's Brian Todd who is in Lewiston, Maine. So, Brian, obviously there's so much anguish,

right? So much anguish about what exactly went down last night. But also, a deep sense of fear because the suspect still has not been apprehended.

Just walk us through what the mood is there in Lewiston, just given that you have supermarkets closed. People are being told to shelter in place

right now, and the public's help as I understand it is critical in tracking the suspect down.

BRIAN TODD CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Zain. In these situations, the public's help is always critical. It often boils down to someone seeing the

suspect and then reporting him or her depending on what kind of manhunt you're undertaking.

You're right, there's a real sense of fear and foreboding in this area of Lewiston and in towns right near here. You've got three towns, Lewiston,

Lisbon, and the town of Bowdoin, Maine. They're on shelter in place orders.


That means, people are basically asked not to go out, not go around. That's a lot to ask of people, especially, you know, when there's something like

this going on here, where people are starved for information, and they also need to kind of live their lives.

But people in three towns including the one we're in where these two shooting incidents occurred are on shelter in place orders.

We can give you some other new information from the news conference that was held just a time ago. This information coming from Colonel William

Ross, of the Maine State Police, a total of 18 people killed in the two shooting incidents, 13 people injured. The colonel gave a timeline which

indicates that the shooter probably moves very fast between the two locations.

I am at the site of the second location and that's the Schemengee's Bar and Grille, just down the street here past me. The first location was called

the Just-In-Time Recreation Center. Now, the colonel did say that the first 911 call came at 6:56 P.M. Eastern time last night. That was four shots

fired at the Just-In-Time Recreation Center.

Only 12 minutes later, at 7:08, there were multiple 911 calls about a shooter inside the Schemengee's Bar and Grille right behind me. So, just 12

minutes elapsed between the 911 calls coming from one location and the 911 calls coming from this second location.

And again, we've calculated that it's about a 10-minute drive between the two places. So, those two timelines indicate that the shooter did move with

some speed between the two places. What we don't know at this hour is what the shooter's motive was. Did he target these two places with some kind of

a plan? Did he target individual people, specifically? That information was not given.

We do have the information of what is now being called the suspect, his name is Robert Card, 40 years old, and police did say that they found his

vehicle, a small white SUV and a boat landing in the town of Lisbon. That's one of the reasons I think why that town is under a shelter in place order.


ASHER: Brian, I think you mentioned that it was sort of just before 7 o'clock in the evening when the first 911 call came through. By my

calculation, that means it's been about 17 hours or so that the suspect has been on the loose.

When you have that kind of time, when that amount of time is gone by, how much of a disadvantage does that put police officers at, just in terms of

trying to track him down? I mean, he could technically be anywhere by now.

TODD: Well, he really could, but you do have, Zain, you have law enforcement authorities in Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, that the

states bordering here, monitoring their borders very carefully.

Now, could he have slipped across the border before they started doing that? That's possible because those borders are pretty close by but you

don't to speculate on that. What advantage that he does have is that he's from this area. He knows this area very well.

We do have some information from law enforcement sources that he had mental health issues, and that he spent time in a mental health facility this

summer. But he does have the advantage of knowing the area, and of course, he can probably hide out. There are a lot of wooded areas around here.

I just covered a manhunt in Eastern Pennsylvania for an escaped convict there who was caught in September and there were a lot of wooded areas,

farmland areas. This area is not dissimilar to that areas. There are a lot of places where this man could hide, but they have brought a lot of assets

to bear here for law enforcement.

You've got the FBI, the ATF Department of Homeland Security, the U.S. Marshals, in addition to the state police in the local police, tracking

him. This is hundreds of officers tracking him. They've got some advantages, too.

They've got canine teams, they've got air assets with heat detection capability, they're very good at this kind of thing. So, it's one of those

instances where you don't want to call the game, but it is kind of a back and forth, as to who gains in advantage from one moment the next.

ASHER: Yeah, but actually, also looking at his cell phone signals, those records, from where he was in the immediate sort of days and weeks before

the shooting, to help sort of piece together and figure out where he could be now. Brian Todd, live for us there, thank you so much.

GOLODRYGA: We're going to turn now to our other top story, obviously the main United Nations agency helping Palestinians says that its operations

are being, quote, "paralyzed in Gaza, due to the lack of fuel".

Israel insists supplies do exist but are controlled by Hamas. A U.N. aid worker says they'll be forced to halt operations altogether, if fuel, which

is which is crucial for generating power to hospitals, is not delivered in the next few hours.

ASHER: A spokesperson for the Israel defense forces says that there are at least 800,000 liters of fuel stored inside Gaza. I want to point out that

CNN cannot independently verify the IDF's claims.

A Massachusetts family has found itself caught in the crosshairs of the Israel-Hamas war. Now, they're stuck in Gaza, waiting desperately to try to

cross into Egypt.


CNN's Poppy Harlow has that story.


ABOOD OKAL, HEAD OF A FAMILY STUCK IN GAZA: Hi, this is Abood Okal recording this voice mail from

Gaza Strip, specifically Rafah city.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): A Massachusetts family stuck in Gaza, waiting to cross into Egypt through the Rafah crossing for the past

13 days. Abood Okal describing the dire situation in a voice memo sent to CNN by his attorney, Samin Mbulsi (ph).

OKAL: Airstrikes have intensified the last few days and especially last night. It's become constant all night for most of the day. My son was not

able to sleep, Yusuf, not until 1 o'clock in the morning.

And then he was up again by 5 o'clock in the morning. We -- we've been trying to soothe him as much as we can and keep him shielded from the wrath

of the war.

HARLOW (voice-over): In this picture provided to CNN, Abood says a blast happened about nine hundred feet from where they're seeking shelter. He

says his wife and their one-year-old son have tried to stay strong but it hasn't been easy. He says supplies are running low including basic needs

for their son.

OKAL: Unfortunately, yesterday we ran out of milk for him. We opened the last box and basically tonight we would be completely out. It would be his

first night ever in his entire life to go to sleep without having milk.

HARLOW: They're staying ten minutes from the border with Egypt. Abood says he and his family have made attempts to cross into Egypt through the Rafah

crossing to no avail.

OKAL: This is the actual main gate and this is where the gate that people, travelers, wishing to travel have to be processed through.

HARLOW (voice-over): He says each time they've waited for hours but the gates remained closed. A State Department spokesman told us yesterday that

at times, Hamas militants have, quote, "been preventing people from approaching the crossing". That's something Abood says he has not seen.

OKAL: Time is of an essence nowadays. All it takes is one missile -- one airstrike to miss its target or be too close to where you are.


GOLODRYGA: That was our CNN Poppy Harlow colleague reporting there. Well, there are live pictures of Capitol Hill, where the Republican-led chamber

voted to elect Congressman Mike Johnson as speaker on Wednesday. He was their fourth nominee in what was a bruising and chaotic three weeks.

ASHER: They finally did it. Johnson has already jumped right into his first full day on the job, meeting earlier today. There he is with

Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese. But the Louisiana congressman is also facing a whole host of issues at home and abroad as well. He's got

to deal with aid requests, for example, for both Israel and Ukraine, both of those hanging in the balance right now.

Johnson up against a looming government shutdown, too. There's a lot on his plate. And he'll now have to navigate the familiar calls for Congress to

take action after yet another mass shooting. He spoke about it briefly earlier, saying that his heart really does go out to everybody that was



MIKE JOHNSON, U.S. HOUSE SPEAKER: This is a dark time in America. We have a lot of problems. And we're really, really hopeful and prayerful. Prayer

is appropriate in a time like this, that the evil can end and this senseless violence can stop.

And so, that's the statement this morning on behalf of the entire House of Representatives. Everyone wants this to end, and I'll leave it there.


ASHER: All right, joining us live now is Congressman Cory Mills. Congressman Mills, thank you so much for being with us. So, you are a U.S.

Army combat veteran. You are on the Armed Services Committee.

When you hear, just in terms of talking about the shooting that happened in Maine, when you hear that the suspect, Robert Card, was also a veteran, a

reservist, firearms instructor, that he received a lot of military training, what goes through your mind? Obviously, we'll get to what's

happening on Capitol Hill in terms of Mike Johnson in just a moment, but first, of course, I do want to get your thoughts shooting in Lewiston,


CORY MILLS, U.S. HOUSE REPUBLICAN: Well, clearly, obviously, the beginning of this is my thoughts and prayers are definitely the families and the

victims of this act. I also want to make sure that I give my prayers and thoughts to our law enforcement officers who are day in and day out

constantly putting themselves in harm's way on our behalf.

You know, we understand that as military combat veterans about when everyone else runs from gunfire, we run towards it. You know, we don't have

a motive at this time.

But I would say that this is one of the areas that I've been talking about, whether it's within the Armed Services Committee or even just with my

colleagues around the floor about getting more research into mental health and also looking at ways that we can help those who are possibly troubled.

We do know that this individual, from what I'm being told, has -- seek (ph) some type of a PTSD treatment. I don't know if he had any further injuries

while he was in the military, such as traumatic brain injury on TBI or whatever.


But this is all the more reason why we need to start prioritizing our American citizens as well as for our veterans to make sure that we're

getting the necessary support, the necessary research and development and that we have a better understanding of mental health so we can try and

prevent such incidents in the future.

ASHER: Right, yeah. So, he did spend about two weeks or so in a mental health facility. He talked about hearing voices. He threatened to shoot up

a military base just so on that front there were clearly mental health issues at play here, as well. But just in terms of the laws that could be

enacted to prevent this, I mean, obviously, Florida does have red flag laws. Maine does not.

I mean, do you think that more states should be looking at red flag laws, just in terms of finding a way in this country to honor the Second

Amendment, but also protect innocent civilians from these sorts of senseless acts of violence?

MILLS: Well, look, at the end of the day, I can tell you, I am a constitutionalist. I do not think that we should strip away American Second

Amendment rights or we should dilute them for the fact that we have people with mental health issues that we need to actually have a better system and

program to be able to treat, support and also help to get them the necessary, I guess, elements.

ASHER: But should somebody who has threatened to shoot a National Guard base be able to access the weapon?

MILLS: Well, my whole thing is if he's threatened to shoot a National Guard base, I think that our law enforcement officers as well should have

him on some type of a watch to make sure that he doesn't continue to act in this way. I think that there are mechanisms that could be utilized.

And again, I'm happy to look at various policies that would support our state-based laws. But for me, I'm just not willing to go ahead and start

violating other people's Second Amendment rights.

I think that we could look at some ways that if a person has had mental health treatments or things like this, or they do pose a risk to

themselves, that they either get the necessary support or we look at some type of a mechanism where we could have the law enforcement intervene or

something like this.

Baker Act is something that's been utilized in the past for those who have mental health issues or drug abuse issues, et cetera. So, there are things

I think that are already in place, but I wouldn't necessarily say that as a result of this individual, we should just go forward and start blocking or

abusing other people's Second Amendment rights.

GOLODRYGA: Well, President Biden just today after this shooting has once again urged lawmakers to ban assault weapons, high-capacity magazines, and

enact universal background checks. And the only positive thing out of all this, Congressman, is that you can finally get back to work, given that

there is an elected speaker in the House.

My question to you is, under a Speaker Johnson, you are up against the clock here. Do you think that you will be able to avoid another government

shutdown, perhaps through a CR or an agreed-upon bill, and pass the legislation or what the President has asked for, and that is additional

funding to help Ukraine and Israel?

MILLS: Well, I can tell you right now that Speaker Johnson is here and ready to work. We're actually voting in just a few moments on the energy

and water appropriations bills. We've already passed MilCon, V.A., DOD, as well as for SFOPS.

Those are all sitting on the Senate's desk where they're not doing anything right now and 85 percent of our actual government could already be funded.

We are actually getting the remaining appropriation bills out. We are here Monday through Friday, Saturday if need be, up and through Thanksgiving.

And so, Speaker Johnson is committed to that. We will make sure that we don't have a government shutdown but we'll also make sure that funding the

government responsibly and that we're not continuing to allow this out of control, kind of out of just spending levels to be gone through where we're

actually burning ourselves into an economic abyss.

GOLODRYGA: I know that you had just returned from Israel doing your best to bring stranded Americans back home. Does it worry you at all that

Speaker Johnson has not supported additional aid to Ukraine, especially given that the President has asked Congress to pass this dual aid package

for both Ukraine and Israel?

MILLS: Well, I personally -- yeah, I don't support having a packaged thing. These should be votes that are voted on separately. Israel aid,

Ukraine aid, disaster relief funding, these should not be packaged. You could argue the germanness of them, but you also have to argue the fact

that we have already allocated $114-plus billion with no overall overarching results for military strategy on Ukraine.

I'm not for signing a blank check. I am for Israel's defense. I am for ensuring that we have disaster relief fund. I come from the state of

Florida. This is a very important thing for us. But at the end of the day, I do not support a package deal so that Biden can try and shove through $61

billion more for Ukraine and yet only give -- go ahead.

GOLODRYGA: Even if that means prolonging the aid that you support going to Israel now?

MILLS: This wouldn't prolong it. You're talking about taking a package and splitting it into three ways. If we can't do that in the federal

government, then we shouldn't be funding anyone, period.

GOLODRYGA: All right, Congressman, we'll have to leave it there. Thank you so much for joining us.

MILLS: Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: And again, enjoy your day back at work, or you can actually do the people's business.


MILLS: Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: Cory Mills, thank you.

ASHER: All right, we'll have much more news after the short break. Don't go away.


GOLODRYGA: Israeli officials say they have killed the deputy head of Hamas' intelligence directorate. They say Shadi Barut is partially

responsible for planning the October 7 attacks, which killed 1400 people and precipitated this current crisis. Israel Defense Forces in Shin Bet say

he was killed in a targeted airstrike.

Meantime, Israeli troops briefly entered Gaza with ground troops. I believe we're going to go live now to the Israeli defense minister who is speaking

live. Let's take his comments.


YOAV GALLANT, ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER (through translator): --in order to eliminate the will of the citizens of Israel to live here. And we are going

to win it. I know it. I saw on the 7th of October and the 8th of October the idea of soldiers and citizens fighting. I saw the citizens protecting

their children. I saw soldiers running to attack. I saw women officers throwing grenades to the other rooms.

Heads of divisions are taking over the war from room to room, from settlement to settlement, in their efforts to prevent the enemy to get to

the state of Israel in order for them to prevent additional harm to other citizens.

After 24 hours passed, we moved to attack. It's a powerful attack. It's conducted in the air, ground, and sea. We attack in the bunkers, tunnels,

in the outposts, the communication rooms of the terrorists. For those on the ground or those who are managing it. This is an accurate and powerful

war. I know this is our duty to win. This is the unwritten contract between the government in Israel and the public in Israel.


And my duty as the defense minister and the person who is responsible to the IDF and that we are going to win it and the citizens of Israel can live

here quietly as they deserve. We are attacking and making sure that we are ready for the next stage. There are going to be next stages we are

preparing at, and now we're going to fulfill it. I'm determined to bring victory.

The management of the war is happening in the Defense Ministry with IDF, Shin Bet, Mossad. all the bodies that are coordinating, Central Command,

Defense Ministry that deal with the Central Command, the coordination with the abductees, as well. As a defense minister, I see one goal -- to bring

to the victory of Israel on this horrible enemy, the Hamas, it's ISIS, the ISIS of Gaza.

Additional thing happened in this war. We have more than 200 abductees, and we lost 1400 people in the battle.


GOLODRYGA: We've been listening to comments now from Yoav Gallant, the Israeli Defense Minister, just laying out more detail about what is

expected to be a ground offensive that many in Israel and around the world had been anticipating now for a few weeks following the October 7th heinous


Once again, he said that the country is determined to win and bring victory to this fight, a long fight expected by many experts in the weeks and

months ahead. Let's go to CNN's Jim Sciutto who is in Israel for us. Jim, interesting that the longer this ground invasion doesn't happen, the more

we're hearing from government officials really talking about what to expect.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF U.S. SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's interesting because it may be that the ultimate ground operation could be different

than originally imagined. Seeing this operation in the last 24 hours that the IDF also released video of, where they went into the north, carried out

a few attacks, and then left again, it's possible that you see a series of attacks like that going forward, and that could amount to ground activity

in South Gaza.

It's also possible that the offensive we saw today, or rather the operation we saw today, was laying the groundwork for something bigger but it's not

clear because we do know that U.S. officials, military officials that are advising Israel have, if not advised against, at least spoken of the risks

of a large-scale ground offensive there using U.S. experience from its own operations in Fallujah and Iraq in the 2000s, which were deadly, took many,

many weeks, with enormous losses.

And advising for something that looks a little bit different, that is a combination of airstrikes and special operations raids. It's not clear.

It's not clear what Israel has decided on. But it's possible that what we saw today is a taste of what we'll see going forward.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah. We know there's a three-star U.S. general there advising the IDF, similar to what we've seen play out in Ukraine, with U.S.

officials advising the Ukrainians on how to carry out the war. And on some issues, there are disagreements. Jim Sciutto in Northern Israel for us.

Yeah, go ahead.

SCIUTTO: And by the way, the General that they sent -- that the U.S. sent here, General Glynn, is a veteran of Iraq. In fact, he commanded Marine

forces in Fallujah, so he has very specific experience. But I will tell you this, we're in northern Israel right now.

We went to a town right up on the border that is surrounded on three sides by Lebanon, and it is completely evacuated. It's empty. The streets are

empty. The houses are empty. People have left because of fears for their own safety that a second front in this war open up, that town, its only

occupants now really are the mayor and soldiers.

And there is enormous concern here that if there is a full-scale invasion of Gaza, that they will see Hezbollah act in the north. And they're

preparing for that, and not just the military, but folks who live up here, many of them choosing to go south for their own safety.


GOLODRYGA: Yeah, a reminder that Israel is threatened in this case not just by Hamas but by other proxies, as well, of Iran. Jim Sciutto in

Northern Israel for us. Thank you.

ASHER: Israel is saying that they can handle two fronts, but a load of experts who are looking at this from the outside say that Hezbollah, who

have only gotten stronger since 2006, the 2006 war with Israel, will be a tough enemy to beat.

All right, the Gaza Bureau Chief for "Al Jazeera Arabic" lost his wife, his daughter, son, and grandson in Israeli airstrike that just happened. This

is according to the "Al Jazeera" news channel.

We want to warn you, though, we're going to show you video of the journalist as he goes into the hospital to see his family at the morgue. A

lot of viewers will find what we're about to show you extremely disturbing.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, this happened Wednesday after a blast hit a house near a refugee camp in central Gaza. "Al Jazeera" says that their employee, this

reporter here, and his family was taking shelter there.

According to a family statement, in all 12 members of the family were killed, including nine children. Al Jazeera's Arabic Senior White House

Correspondent posted on the social media platform X that the reporter himself was reporting on the strike earlier, without knowing that his

family were among the dead.

ASHER: You can see in his face just so distraught. I mean, he looks like he's in a state of shock right now. And while CNN cannot independently

confirm the exact source of this blast, the IDF did confirm that it did carry out an airstrike in the vicinity of where Aldo's family were killed,

saying that strikes on military targets are subject to relevant provisions of international law, including the taking of feasible precautions to

mitigate civilian casualties.

Regarding the specific case, the IDF targeted Hamas terrorist infrastructure in the area. So, the IDF essentially saying that they may

indeed have carried out that particular strike.

All right, coming up. Quick thinking saved this man's life. Take a look here at the mass shooting in Maine. We will walk you through, my goodness,

we'll explain to you what he did to hide from the shooter. That's after the break.




GOLODRYGA: Welcome back to ONE WORLD. I'm Bianna Golodryga.

ASHER: And I'm Zain Asher. I want to quickly recap our major breaking news coming out of Maine right now, where a manhunt is underway. A desperate

search underway right now, for a shooter responsible for killing 18 people. Murder warrants have been issued for the gunman. He was armed with what

appears to have been a high-powered assault rifle.

He essentially walked into a bowling alley in Lewiston last night in Maine. Customers ran to safety as the police arrived. Another shooting was

reported just a few minutes later at a restaurant that was about a few miles away.

GOLODRYGA: Schools and businesses have closed as residents are ordered to shelter in place while police hunt for the suspect named as 40-year-old

Robert Card. They've described the firearms instructor as armed and dangerous. This witness hid inside a bowling alley machine until help



UNKNOWN: Well, we were just inside, just a normal night of bowling and out of nowhere he just came in and there was a loud pop. I thought it was a

balloon. I had my back turned to the door. And as soon as I turned and saw that it was not a balloon. He was holding a weapon, I just booked it down

the lane.

And I slid basically into where the pins are and climbed up in the machine and was on top of the machines for about 10 minutes until the cops got

there. I don't know how to explain it. I don't think you're supposed to see that in real life. Over 10.

At least I knew there were shots. And then when I got on top of the bowling machine, it was a lot of ruckus back there. So, I don't really know from

that. But I heard the first one. It was probably 15 feet behind. I mean he was close -- very close.

ASHER: I mean, who would even think to do that? Who would even think to run down --

GOLODRYGA: Thank goodness, he did.

ASHER: -- the lane and hide in the pin machines? John Miller, we have you. Thank you so much for being with us. I have two questions for you. One is,

are we sure, just based on all of your knowledge and expertise, that he is still in Maine, what is the likelihood of that? And how palpable is the

fear that he might, since he hasn't been caught yet, he might actually try something like this again?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: So, that's two interesting threads. Number one, we have, you know, the number

of hours between the shooting and the discovery of the car that he dumped at the end of a road in a wooded area, where one trail goes into the woods

and the other is for launching a boat.

So, did he go into the woods? Did he steal a boat or have one waiting? Where did he come out on the other side? That is unknown right now. And of

course, did he have another car or find access another car because that could put him in the direction of the Canadian border where immigration,

customs enforcement, as well as customs and border protection have all been notified, all have his picture, or it could put him south or west.

And that begs your last part of your question, which is aside from getting away, which he has shown an intention towards, does he have another plan?

GOLODRYGA: And he's still armed. And what's interesting to me, John, is that he did not cover his face.


So, he was easily identified given the number of cameras that were at both locations. You know, just in terms of the weapon that he used, can you talk

about its capacity and strength because, you know, listen, we know 18 are now confirmed dead, but what really stood out to me is he's only been

charged with eight counts of murder because 10 people, victims, have yet to be identified. '

MILLER: Well, and the reason that they have yet to be identified is, and I caution that this is somewhat disturbing to even think about, is that most

of his victims were headshots and that has slowed down the process of identification.

ASHER: That is so difficult to hear, my goodness.

MILLER: And that is a part of it, but that is a weapon of war. It is designed for killing people and he is a very experienced person as a

Sergeant First Class who's been in the service for 20 years. We don't know of his deployments, but we do know this.

Over the summer when he was at Camp Smith, a New York National Guard training center, he went through an episode where superior officers learned

that he said he was hearing voices. He was having thoughts about hurting soldiers.

He was becoming unglued and they gave him a command referral, which is one without a choice, to a military hospital where he underwent a two-week

psychiatric evaluation and observation where he was released after that period of time.

And then we don't know much. We don't know what happened between September and October and the shooting other than he returned to Maine where he has a

large piece of land, maybe a thousand acres, and where he legally possesses these weapons. What his connection was to the bowling alley, to the bar,

and there does seem to be some kind of personal connection. We haven't filled out yet or why he chose those random people as victims.

ASHER: And I mean, it's nightmarish to think about what these kinds of weapons do to people. I mean, you point out that, look, this is why it's

been so slow for them to actually being able to identify some of the victims. It's because, as you point out, these are weapons of war. That is

a sobering thought. John Miller, we have to leave it there. Thank you so much. We'll be right back with more.


ASHER: All right, we saw a lot of raw emotion and certainly high tragedy. Israeli and Palestinian representatives telling the whole world their view

of the Israel-Hamas war just a short time ago at the United Nations. Right now, take a look at these live photographs. We're watching another

emergency session at the General Assembly.

Today's meeting was called to put more focus on the conflict in Gaza and what civilians there are going through and the hostage crisis, as well.


The Israeli Ambassador to the U.N. described the horrors of the Hamas attack on October 7th.


GILAD ERDAN, ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: The brutal ISIS-like monsters abducted over 220 hostages from Israel and dozens of other countries,

including babies -- babies, children, persons with disabilities, the elderly and Holocaust survivors.

Kfir Bibas is nine months old. Nine months old and he is being held right now in Gaza as a hostage. Nine months old. What barbaric terrorists can do

such a thing? And together with him, 30 other children -- 30 other children.

We saw Hamas' brutality in Israel. I cannot begin to fathom what horrors the hostages are enduring right now as we speak here. Twenty days have gone

by and Israel is still counting her dead. It took weeks to collect all of the bodies.


GOLODRYGA: And as we've been reporting, the U.S. has been urging Israel to delay a planned ground invasion while hostages remain in the besieged


ASHER: And looking ahead, the spotlight is still going to be once again on the General Assembly on Friday. That is when it is expected to vote on a

draft resolution from Arab states calling for a ceasefire.

GOLODRYGA: Well, time now for the exchange. Our next guest says Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu should have resigned. Alon Pinkas is a

former Israeli Consul General in New York and a former adviser to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, and he joins us live from Tel Aviv. Alon, it's

good to see you.

So, if we have time, we'll get to your thoughts on why or when we could see any more ownership from Prime Minister Netanyahu on this tragedy. But from

the perspective of war, you've got domestic pressure.

You've got continued threats and continued missiles launched from Gaza into Israel. And you've got an economy at a standstill now that you have 350,000

reservists just waiting for orders. How much longer can Israel afford not to go in, in some sort of raid or ground assault?

ALON PINKAS, FORMER ISRAELI CONSUL GENERAL IN NEW YORK: Hi, Bianna, good to be with you. You're exactly right. I don't think it can go on much


On the other hand, the, you know, the trade-off is not something to look forward to. Because, you know, a ground operation in and of itself could be

lengthy, could be costly. If it lacks a political objective, it could get all muddy and murky.

There are, you know, a variety of conflicting interests involved with the U.S., with Israel, with Egypt. This could all escalate horizontally,

meaning geographically into an exchange between Israel and Hezbollah and Lebanon. And before you know it, a lot more hell will break a lot more --


And so, yes, you're right. You know, this spring-like in terms of a spring, not the time of the year. The spring-like situation economically,

politically, and militarily can't be dragged on much longer. On the other hand, the alternatives are not very exciting.

ASHER: Mr. Pinkas, Zain, here. A lot of people have said, actually including yourself, that it's over for Netanyahu. I mean, come on. He had

one job. He had one job to keep Israelis safe, and he couldn't even do that. And not only did he not do it, but you think about the number of

people that were killed, the number of people who were taken hostage.

I mean, Israel has not really been a nation state for that long. And so, to have this happen on your watch is awful for him politically. My question to

you is, is there a certain type of response, right? If he gets this right, just in terms of his military response, the ground invasion goes extremely

well, he's able to keep Hezbollah at bay in the north, is there a particular response that might indeed end up saving his career here?

PINKAS: I doubt that. There are too many variables that he cannot control. The first of which is what's called escalation dominance, which assumes

that when you control escalation and you can regulate and time it at your will, you can actually get the desired results. We don't have escalation

dominance, nor does he.

Yeah, I do think he's politically dumb. This may take, I mean, I think and wrote and said many times that he should have resigned. That would have

been the decent, that would have been the right thing to do. He's not wired that way.


There's no surprise there. So, this could take a few weeks. This could take a few months, but I think that the pressures, the political pressures, the

public pressures are going to be enormous. Don't forget that day, Saturday, October 7th, you know, undoubtedly the worst day in Israel's history, came

following nine months of mass demonstrations against Mr. Netanyahu on another issue, on the constitutional coup that he tried to install and

launch here in Israel, on the democracy, on the judiciary. It looks like prehistory now. But that very same rage, resentment and dissatisfaction

could morph on the issue of the war immediately when all this is over. And by the way, when all this is over, is not saying much. It could be months

and a year before anyone can declare that the war is over. But honestly, I don't think he can survive this.

ASHER: But he's done. He's done is what you're saying. Okay.

GOLODRYGA: Well, let's also not forget that it was his calculation that Hamas was an organization in a group that he could work with. And clearly

that literally blew up in his face. Final question to you, Alon. We -- it's obvious that the status quo does not work. Tragically, it is obvious.

But you know, even today, President Biden said that he is reiterating the need for a two-state solution. I mean, how realistic is that at this point

when you look at polls conducted by both Israelis and Palestinians and there is just no appetite for that, especially right now?

PINKAS: Well, there's no appetite for carnage and there's no appetite for more killing, to be short. But here's the thing. What the President,

President Biden is doing is not only reiterating American policy for the last 50 years about the two-state solution or about the needs for Israel to

end the occupation. He's basically laying a vision.

No one, certainly not President Biden, certainly no Israelis think this is feasible in the foreseeable future, meaning weeks, months, even a year. But

here's the silver lining here. Because of the magnitude and the scale of what had happened, it, you know, it moved tectonic plates in the Middle

East. And here comes the President of the United States and is basically saying, guys, this can't go on.

So, I'm not saying the two-state solution is viable or workable or attainable, but you have to think about the so-called proverbial day after.

It's not all, as Mr. Netanyahu would like everyone to think, it's not all about Iran. It's also about you, somehow managing relations between you.

And while the U.S. was in the process of disengaging --


PINKAS: At least right now seems to be a time when the U.S. is cautiously coming back into this issue.

GOLODRYGA: Well, listen, we'll take any silver lining we can get. Unfortunately, we're out of time right now, so we'll end on that note.

Former Israeli Consul General in New York Alon Pinkas, thank you so much for joining us with your perspective and insight. And we'll be right back.





ASHER: All right, China has launched its youngest ever crew on a mission to its space station. Senior media reports -- state media, rather, reports

three astronauts are ready to carry out extravehicular duties, in other words, activities outside the space station.

GOLODRYGA: And get this, their average age is 38. I feel so old right now. The crew is being led by Commander Tang Hongbo, who makes history as the

first astronaut to visit China's space station, not once, but twice. Talk about little ambition there.

ASHER: Thirty-eight years old.

GOLODRYGA: Congratulations to them. It's nice to end on somewhat --

ASHER: Happy notes.

GOLODRYGA: -- of an optimistic, uplifting note. That's right. Well, that does it for us this hour of ONE WORLD. I'm Bianna Golodryga.

ASHER: And I'm Zain Asher. Thank you so much for watching. "AMANPOUR" is up next.