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One World with Zain Asher

Dozens Of Wounded Palestinians From Gaza Now Treated In Egyptian Hospitals; A Second Major Explosion At The Jabalia Refugee Camp In Gaza; Donald Trump, Jr. Could Take The Stand In The Civil Fraud Trial Against Family Businesses; Britain Moves Forward With Kenya While Acknowledging The Colonial Past. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired November 01, 2023 - 12:00   ET




ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Palestinians and foreign nationals are leaving Gaza for the first time since the start of the war.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: "One World" starts right now. Dozens of injured Palestinians and foreign nationals have crossed out of Gaza and

into Egypt following a deal mediated by Qatar.

ASHER: Plus, inside Gaza, a massive blast hits Jabalia refugee camp for the second day in a row. We will bring you the latest information on

possible casualties.

GOLODRYGA: And in New York, Donald Trump, Jr. is taking the stand in the civil fraud trial against his family and their business. Hello everyone.

Live from New York, I'm Bianna Golodryga.

ASHER: And I'm Zain Asher. You are watching "One World". For more than three weeks they have been coming to the Rafah crossing, hoping to escape

the hell, and for more than three weeks they have been turned away. But today, thanks to a deal brokered by Qatar, hundreds of foreign nationals

and severely injured Palestinians are being allowed to leave Gaza for safety in Egypt.

GOLODRYGA: Dozens of wounded Palestinians from Gaza are now being treated in Egyptian hospitals. Many of them seem shell-shocked as they were put

into ambulances. Meanwhile, there was a second major explosion at the Jabalia refugee camp in Gaza just a short time ago. We're still getting

details about exactly what happened.

Now, this comes after Tuesday, where an Israeli airstrike left this apocalyptic scene of destruction. Israel says it targeted and killed a

Hamas commander hiding there, and says the collapse of Hamas tunnels underneath the camp contributed to the damage.

ASHER: And just minutes ago, the IDF said that they are at the gates of Gaza City as they press on with their ground campaign. Israel now says it

has struck a staggering 11,000 targets across Gaza during this war.

Now, we want to focus right now on the Rafah crossing, specifically where people are actually being let out of Gaza for the first time, by the way,

in three weeks. So far, it's only really severely injured people, also foreign nationals, those who have foreign passports who are now being

allowed to leave.

They are being checked one by one, so we know that progress is slow. This is all happening very, very slowly indeed. I want you to listen, though, as

one man who has an American passport, he's a U.S. citizen. He is describing here his family's terrible ordeal. Take a listen.


FATHI ABU AL HASSAN, U.S. PASSPORT HOLDER: I came in Gaza, Palestine here since three months ago for a visit. After that, the war goes up. We spent

here three months without any minimum parameter for life. No water, no food, no shelter, nothing, nothing. We open our eyes on the dead people and

we close our eyes on dead people.


GOLODRYGA: Now, it's important to remember, according to the U.S. government, that it was Hamas that was keeping these foreign nationals and

these injured Palestinians from crossing over into Egypt. Meantime, sources tell CNN the deal to open the crossing is separate from any negotiations

over hostages.

The agreement was negotiated by Qatar. And that is where our Becky Anderson is. She joins us live. Quite a development here, Becky, after weeks of



GOLODRYGA: Do we have specifics in terms of the number of Palestinians injured and foreign nationals who have made it over.

ANDERSON: So yes, this has been a hard-earned success in what is otherwise a very dark environment and time of course. This is Qatar-led negotiations

between Israel, Hamas and Egypt in coordination with the United States.

And here's what we do know at present. It is hoped as many as 500 foreign passport holders will get to leave Gaza through that border crossing. And

you've just been showing some images there and into Egypt in this first sort of 24 hours and that started some hours ago.

We know that American citizens are not in that first wave but as far as U.S. officials are concerned and diplomatic sources who are close to the

talks that I've been talking to. As we understand it, U.S. citizens will make their way through that evacuation corridor on Thursday which of course

is tomorrow here. It's seven o'clock in the evening here now on Wednesday.


It's important to note, as well, as you've pointed out that some 80 -- 81 seriously or critically injured Palestinians have also been evacuated

through the border. These are people as I understand it who need serious surgical intervention. There are medical facilities set up right on that

border by the crossing and then a hospital taking evacuees about 15 kilometers from Egypt.

Look, as we understand it, you know, this border crossing has been the only available outlet. We know that, in what is otherwise Gaza under total

siege. Hamas not wanting to open that --the gates on the Gaza side until they were sufficiently satisfied with the negotiations as we understand it.

There was talk at once -- they talked -- demand Hamas at one stage that some of their seriously wounded fighters would be evacuated, as well. That,

as we understand it is not part of this evacuation and perhaps understandably so.

And on the Egyptian side, important for the Egyptians that they were fundamentally secure about their security and about who it was, who was

coming in through that border. Once those details had been flushed out, we got the announcement of the beginning of this evacuation which, Bianna,

will take some days.

U.S. officials suggesting that as many as 5000 people eventually will be evacuated. We understand there are at least 400 U.S. citizens or dual

citizens with families in Gaza. So that would be upwards of a thousand people who are looking to be evacuated. There are lists. The Americans and

others know who it is exactly, who wants to evacuate.

At present, it is citizens from Jordan, for example. We know the Jordanians got their evacuation started earlier today and from various other countries

that Egypt and Hamas have agreed to at present. But as we understand it, the next phase of this, which will be Thursday, will include American


And to note your point, this is different from the negotiations that I am told are ongoing but have not reached a conclusion yet on the hostages

being held in Gaza. These again are Qatar-led negotiations between Israel and Hamas. We know there are at least, still 230 odd hostages being held in


As we understand it, not all of them are being held by Hamas and that is complicating the negotiations because it is Hamas that these Qatar-led

negotiations are with. And they don't know, as far as sources tell me, where all of these hostages are being kept and that is complicating things.

As we understand it, those negotiations are around a prisoner exchange, women for children, for women, for teenagers held in Israeli prisons. We

also know that Hamas has been demanding a ceasefire. The Israelis have categorically ruled that out, so that has been a sticking point in these

hostage negotiations.

There have also been sticking points around what could come in through the Rafah crossing. Fuel and aid is what Hamas has been demanding. There are

big questions around whether Israel will allow more fuel in. But that's a sing-stand at the moment.

Different negotiations ongoing for the release of hostages. Those have not by any means got across the line yet, but these evacuations at least have

now started. And foreign nationals, dual nationals, American citizens, those who've been stuck in Gaza now for three weeks getting an opportunity

to leave. Bianna.

ASHER: Becky -- Becky, Zain here. Just in terms of the hostages, just because you brought that up, do we know whether the ground incursion, the

sort of second phase, as the Israelis have talked about, the ground incursion into Gaza is now slowing down the negotiations surrounding the

release of hostages?

ANDERSON: So, that's a really good question and we spoke to the advisor to the Prime Minister here on Sunday and he categorically said it is making

things a lot more difficult. They had been hoping for a pause in the fighting.

This was before Friday when it was announced that the Israelis had upped the assault and were going in on the ground. And he said that is made by

Sunday. He said to us on air here in Qatar. That has made these negotiations, to quote him here, "a lot more difficult".

Mediators, he said, need a period of calm in order to try and get these negotiations over the line. The Israelis have been very clear. They have

said that they believe that upping the pressure on Hamas will ultimately get these negotiations over the line.


That is the Israeli position. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that on the -- on Friday or Saturday, so did the defense minister. The Israelis

believe that it is only with more pressure on Hamas that they will affect the release of these hostages. And they've made it very clear they have two

objectives in Israel, to dismantle Hamas militarily and politically, and at the same time, they say, to get these hostages released.

Many people suggesting that feels very contradictory at present, but that's certainly the position of the Israelis. And what we have is what I've just

reported as far as the negotiations are now concerned.

ASHER: All right, Becky Anderson, live for us there. Thank you so much. All right, I want to update our viewers now on another aspect of the

breaking news that we just got a few hours ago, and that is there has been another blast at the Jabalia refugee camp in Gaza. This is happening for a

second straight day.

The civil defense in Gaza, which I should note is run by Hamas, they're saying that many people -- many people died in this latest explosion and

that large numbers of people remain under the rubble. CNN, we should note, has reached out to the Israeli military, the IDF for comment. We haven't

heard back, just yet.

GOLODRYGA: And the blast comes one day after an Israeli airstrike hit the same refugee camp, causing significant damage and destruction. The exact

number of deaths and injuries from Tuesday's attack are not clear at this point. Israel says that it was targeting Hamas fighters, including a

commander involved in planning the October 7th massacre.

ASHER: All right, for more on this developing story, I want to bring in CNN's Salma Abdelaziz. Salma, this blast happening at this exact same

refugee camp in terms of what we brought our viewers yesterday. Just walk us through what the situation is on the ground. Do we have any more comment

from the Israelis?

SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We don't yet have comment. We have reached out. But what we do understand, because we have been speaking to

the IDF throughout the day before this latest explosion, is that they targeted the Jabalia refugee camp -- the IDF did, because they say there

was a Hamas commander, a senior Hamas commander, as you mentioned, responsible for the October 7th attacks.

But they also acknowledged that this is a residential area and that civilians were absolutely killed in the crossfire of this targeted -- what

they call targeted attack. It's incomprehensible. It's hard to even imagine just the anger, the anguish, the horror inside the Jabalia refugee camp

after the first Israeli airstrikes killed potentially hundreds. We're still waiting to find out those numbers as survivors continue to dig through the


And then yet another explosion rocking the camp today. We do have a report to show you. This brings together images from yesterday's attacks --

important to note that communications were severely disrupted after the attack, so it's difficult to get images out, but we do have some, and we do

have to warn you, they are graphic. Take a look.


ABDELAZIZ: Dust and debris filled the air after an Israeli airstrike. "Ambulance! Ambulance!", calls a man carrying a child. These are the

moments after the Israeli military's attack on the Jabalia camp in Gaza. Everyone is disoriented and terrified. And this is the result. Several city

blocks levelled in an instant. The scene is apocalyptic. Survivors desperately dig for their loved ones with bare hands.

Israel says it was targeting a Hamas commander hiding in this densely populated residential area. An IDF spokesperson called the death of

innocent civilians a tragedy of war. That tragedy tearing apart this community. No one yet knows how many still lie under the ruins.

Shortly after the bombs fell, comms in the enclave were mostly severed. But one Palestinian cameraman was among those able to post on social media. The

anguish is heart-wrenching. The victims small and afraid. Moms and dads will bury their children. "All three of my children are dead!", this father

screams. "All three!".

Entire families are wiped out. This man holds up the name of 15 relatives killed in the airstrike. "My whole family, innocent people are dead", he

says. "Total destruction. Our whole building is gone. Twenty stories. This is a massacre." At a nearby hospital, the carnage is on display. The bodies

keep piling up. With her dead children at her feet, this mother prays for strength.


Many in this forsaken enclave feel they have no one but God left.


ABDELAZIZ (on-camera): Now, it's difficult to understand and to imagine that these families that you see in that piece and these families trapped

in Jabalia camp, they are yet to face even more carnage and suffering. Israeli troops, of course, say that they are approaching Gaza City, that

they have entered from the north of the Gaza Strip.

You'll hear, of course, of those evacuation orders. Those are, under what the U.N. says, impossible to do, considering that there is constant

bombardment, constant siege, and no safe place. Nowhere for these families to find shelter.

ASHER: That's Salma Abdelaziz, live for us there. Thank you so much.

GOLODRYGA: Well, as Israel's ground operation continues for a sixth day, we're still not getting a lot of details. Since Friday, journalists have

been relying on both official and non-official videos to piece together what's happening there.

ASHER: Yeah, it has been shrouded in secrecy for obvious reasons. But here's what we do know. The number of Israeli army vehicles inside the

perimeter of Gaza is increasing. So that suggests that the ground operation they've talked about, the second phase of the war, is continuing to expand.

IDF troops and tanks have been slowly making their way, you see on this map here, towards Gaza City. The IDF saying that they're pretty much at the

gates of Gaza City right now. They've been approaching it from the northwest, the northeast, and the south as well.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, really just encircling the city. CNN's Rafael Romo joins us now from Tel Aviv. And Rafael, we are just now learning that quite a

number of IDF soldiers have been killed in ground operations in Gaza. What more are we hearing?

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that's right, Bianna and Zain. It's been more than 300 already. And let me tell you, it's been hard to figure

out exactly what the strategy of the Israel Defense Forces is.

During the second week of the war, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his Defense Minister Yoav Gallant were sending signals about

a possible all-out massive ground incursion. Then we learned about targeted raids where special forces would go in, strike a target in Gaza and then

leave. They were defined then as limited in scope.

It was not until the last several days that there was a true ground incursion, but not as big as you would have expected. Earlier today, the

Israel Defense Forces said it had struck over 11,000 targets belonging to terrorist organizations in the Gaza Strip since the war started on October


And that's an average of more than 440 strikes per day for the first 25 days of the war. As for the last 24 hours, the IDF said its combined troops

struck several targets throughout the Gaza Strip including operational command centers as well as Hamas cells.

And the most controversial military decision yet -- and we were talking about this just before with Salma -- the IDF targeted the Jabalia refugee

camp. This is the largest one of eight in Gaza. The Israeli military explained its decision, saying, that there were several Hamas terrorists

who barricaded themselves in a multi-story building which was located near a school, a medical center, and government offices in the Jabalia area.

They also said a top commander was hiding in a network of tunnels there. That building was subsequently struck by the Israel Air Force. And the IDF

has also released video of strikes on multiple locations, as well as soldiers on the front line moving through the Gaza rubble.

But again, it is difficult to pinpoint exactly, especially what the end goal is going to be and if it is to eliminate completely Hamas. As the

Prime Minister has said, how they're going to go about doing that exactly, especially considering what happened yesterday in the Jabalia area. Bianna,


GOLODRYGA: Yeah, Israeli officials from the Prime Minister on down have warned the public there that this operation will take weeks, if not months,

ahead. Rafael Romo, thank you.

ASHER: And you and Rafael were just talking about the number of Israeli soldiers who have been killed since the ground operation started in Gaza.

We note the IDF have now released the names of all 15 Israeli soldiers who have been killed. They haven't said much about how exactly they were

killed, just in terms of details.

All right, still to come here on "One World", empty beds laid out in Jerusalem as family members mark another day without their loved ones --

their loved ones, who by the way are still held captive in Gaza by Hamas. We'll talk with a former hostage negotiator who once helped secure the

release of an Israeli soldier. So, he'll talk us through that. Stay with us.


GOLODRYGA: And what we will find out from Donald Trump, Jr. as he testifies in the fraud trial involving his father and the family business.

We'll take you live to the courthouse in Lower Manhattan. That's coming up.


ASHER: All right, I want to focus now on the desperate efforts to release Israeli hostages who have been held in Gaza for more than three weeks.

Negotiations for their release seem to have become a lever used by Hamas to basically buy time and also sow divisions in Israel.

On Monday, Hamas put out a video showing three women believed to be hostages pleading with Prime Minister Netanyahu for their release in

exchange for Palestinian prisoners. Netanyahu condemned the video saying that it was cruel psychological propaganda.

GOLODRYGA: And while a very small number of people have been freed since the October 7th attack, the majority remain captive, most likely hidden in

a maze of tunnels in Gaza. The IDF says there are believed to be up to 240 hostages.

ASHER: In the meantime, as Israel intensifies its ground incursion, ground operation in Gaza, Netanyahu is facing so much pressure to get the

hostages, to get the captives out without jeopardizing their lives. Obviously, that is a big question if the IDF is actually able to do that.

GOLODRYGA: We want to show you these really difficult images to watch there, but it puts everything into perspective as to what the families of

these hostages are going through in Jerusalem.

A stark display brings home the scale of this crisis and the toll that it has taken. What you're looking at is dozens of empty beds and cribs that

line the streets around City Hall. A reminder of all the missing taken by Hamas on October 7th.

ASHER: For more on the complicated negotiation process, I want to bring in Gershon Baskin. He played a key role in securing the release of captured

Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. That was more than a decade ago. He's now the Middle Eastern director of the International Communities Organization, and

he's joining us live from Jerusalem.

Gershon, so good to have you back with us again.


ASHER: I think it's been -- I think it's been about two weeks since we last spoke with you. I'm going to pose to you the same question I asked our

correspondent, Becky Anderson, on the ground just a short time ago. And that is whether or not the ground incursion, the sort of second phase of

this war, how much does it put the negotiations for the release of these hostages at risk? Does it jeopardize it at all? Does it slow the process



BASKIN: I think it's impossible to know -- it is the honest answer. There is thinking that this is putting more pressure on Hamas. We don't know if

that's true. And we know that Hamas has proposed a deal, which is very, very difficult for Israel to accept.

If this is true, the deal that they have proposed is all the hostages for all the prisoners in Israeli prison. We're talking about 7000 people,

including 559 Palestinians who have killed Israelis and are serving life sentences -- some of them multiple life sentences.

It includes 130 of the terrorists who were caught inside of Israel after October 7th, who also committed brutal murder. It includes 20 to 30 percent

of the prisoners being members of Hamas. The overwhelming majority are from the West Bank, not from Gaza.

So, there are a few questions that are unknown. One is, is Hamas willing to release all the hostages at one time? If it's done in phases, then no one

in Israel would agree to it. And the second question is, what do we do with all the prisoners once they're released? How does their release endanger

Israeli citizens from suffering further death as a result of the prisoner release?

Now, we don't know for sure that this is the deal, but it is 100 percent sure that the only way to get all the hostages home safely is through a

deal with Hamas. And this is an impossible dilemma for the Israeli government. And we lack, I think, the kind of public pressure that existed

at the time that Gilad Shalit was in captivity. And we lack the strong prime minister than Netanyahu was at that time.

Netanyahu has never been weaker. And I'm not sure that he and his government have the moral courage to make the decision to save the lives of

all the hostages, that they have a moral responsibility to save.

GOLODRYGA: It's a different Israeli government, as you note, and quite a different Hamas, at least from Israel's perspective as to how they viewed

the organization there. Gershon, there's so little that we do know, and understandably, it's very difficult to take Hamas at their word in terms of

where these hostages are and how they are doing.

There are some in Israel who are worried that perhaps many of these hostages may no longer be alive. Which brings me to my question --

yesterday, I spoke with a man named Moshe Lavi and he joined me to talk about his brother-in-law, Omri Miron, who is one of the hostages that is

being held. And he had just been told that Omri is alive.

So, I'm curious where that type of information would come from. And obviously, that would be very welcome news. But how accurate, in your

opinion, is it?

BASKIN: It might have come from the soldier who was rescued by Israel two days ago. And she was rescued in a very heroic operation. Unfortunately,

she was alone. But from what was reported, she was with other hostages before she was separated from the others. And I'm sure that she provided a

great deal of intelligence information to Israel, including other hostages that she was with.

But we really don't know how well the hostages are. We can assume that they're spread out into small groups throughout the enormous network of

tunnels underneath Gaza. My sense is that we have days, not longer than that, to have a deal to save them.

Once Israel enters the tunnels, once there are forces going in with whatever weapons they will use, the hostages are going to be between the

Israeli troops and the Palestinians who are holding the hostages, and then they're in direct harm's way, and the possibility of a deal being made is

much, much smaller.

ASHER: Right, so that window of opportunity, as you point out, Gershon, is closing. Gershon, I have to say, it's so good to have your perspective on

this. I mean, we were talking about this earlier, that we just have such little information. The fact that you were involved previously in hostage

negotiations to release Gilad Shalit is crucial for us, just to provide some insight. We're always grateful to have you on the show, Gershon.

BASKIN: Can I say one more sentence?

ASHER: Go ahead.

BASKIN: I would just like to say that my heart is broken seeing the death and destruction in Gaza, just as much it was when I saw the death and

destruction in Israel. These two people have to live together in this land, and we will have a day after the war, and we're going to have to figure out

how to do it. And I want to voice my humanity and saying that this killing of innocent people has to come to an end.

GOLODRYGA: There's way too much heartbreak and way too much killing.

ASHER: This cycle has to stop as you point out. Gershon, live for us. Thank you so much. All right, still to come. Coming up, after nearly a

month, the gates into Egypt are finally open.


For some, we will have an update on some of the difficulties in terms of getting out of Gaza.


ASHER: Hello and welcome back to "One World". I'm Zain Asher.

GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga. We want to update you on our breaking news this hour. For the second day in a row, a massive blast has rocked the

Jabalia refugee camp in Gaza.

Video from earlier on Wednesday shows buildings destroyed and a deep crater, as well as people digging through the rubble looking for bodies.

Officials in Gaza call it a second massacre and say that there are still large numbers of people buried in the wreckage.

ASHER: And this is exactly what people in Gaza are trying to escape and that exit has actually begun. Badly injured Palestinians, along with more

than 300 foreign nationals, have crossed the border into Egypt. We are now hearing a little bit more just in terms of some details about who exactly

has been let through.

Italy is saying that four Italian nationals have left Gaza. France is saying that five French citizens have left through the Rafah crossing. And

this, of course, follows a deal brokered by Qatar, obviously involving Israel, Hamas, and Egypt. The injured are arriving one by one, but there

are hundreds more on the Gaza side of the border. Take a look.


SALWA NAJAR, MOTHER OF INJURED BOY (through translator): My son is in need of care.


We were discharged from the hospital as there were no spaces left and we were brought here to the school. We are waiting. There are no treatments or

nothing. We were told that they will send him to Egypt, but the roads are closed.


ASHER: All right, let's get more on this rapidly developing story. We're joined live now by Melissa Bell in Cairo. Melissa, what do we know about

the strategy and the rationale behind who gets released when, in terms of when Americans get released versus other foreign nationals? What do we know

about the list that's apparently been published and how that list was thought out?

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Very little, in fact, saying what we do understand is that all of the foreign and dual nationals are going to be

allowed out through the Rafah crossing. Exactly who is being prioritized, how that list is working, we don't really have any clarity on. There are

images coming to us from the Gaza side of the Rafah crossing of families desperately trying to see if their names are amongst those being allowed


Clearly, for them, this has been an extremely long wait. You're talking about families who very quickly moved south in the Gaza Strip after hearing

noy just the Israeli order to evacuate the north of the Gaza Strip, but also the IDF from none other than the State Department, in the case of the

Americans, that those with dual or foreign nationality would be allowed to make it through the Rafah crossing.

Ever since, those families, those dual and foreign nationals have been at the Rafah crossing, often under Israeli bombardment, since it's been Gaza-

wide over the course of the last three and a half weeks and facing so many of those difficulties that we've been covering ever since the war began --

the lack of food, the lack of water, there is no sanitation inside the Gaza Strip. And the wait for them has been an extremely long one.

Still, this is an important development, and it is really remarkable. The breakthrough we heard about this morning -- it is the result of a deal that

would have been extremely complex and was certainly shrouded in secrecy.

We had heard nothing about it even yesterday when we spent the day at the Rafah crossing with the Egyptian prime minister, a deal broken, as you say,

by Qatar in coordination with the United States between Israel, Hamas, and Egypt. Many of those parties don't speak directly with one another. Getting

here was remarkably difficult. The process now is also very logistically complex.

Still, as you mentioned a moment ago, Zain, four Italian nationals -- what we know about them is that they were working for international aid agencies

inside the Gaza Strip. And I think this is a lot of the profiles that you're going to see coming out -- people who are working with the agencies.

You're also going to see foreign nationals, regional nationals who've gone in to visit family or were living inside Gaza when the war broke out. Very

quickly after it broke out, Israel announced that total siege, and ever since, they simply haven't been able to get out.

And I think what's going to be important over the coming hours and days as we await the rest of those foreign and dual nationals is to get an idea of

their stories, to hear exactly what they've been seeing and what's been going on because of the difficulty of getting any information out of the

Gaza Strip.

There are still a few journalists, those who were in there before the 7th of October, who were able to operate. The aid agencies, of course, giving

us precious information. But it is those stories from the people coming out that are going to be of critical value to us to get an idea of what is

happening to the so many Gazans who remain inside under that strict total siege and with so many difficulties when it comes to day-to-day lives.

I would add, Zain, that in addition to those dual and foreign nationals, we've also seen 81 Palestinians, the very first Palestinians -- the very

first Palestinians to leave the Gaza Strip, allowed out today to get emergency treatment for some of the most severely wounded. Zain.

ASHER: You know, as you point out, it's going to be critical to hear what they have to say about what they have been through over the past three

weeks. Melissa Bell, live for us there. Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: Well, the IDF say their forces are at the gates of Gaza City. Time now for The Exchange for more on this. Joining us now is Ronan

Bergman, staff writer for the New York Times Magazine.

He recently co-authored an article outlining some of the intelligence failures by Israel that led to the devastating attack by Hamas. And he

joins us live from Tel Aviv. It's always great to have your perspective, Ronen, obviously, as an Israeli journalist there as well, covering all of


We are witnessing the real difficulties in urban warfare where you see terrorists hiding among densely populated civilian areas. As we just noted,

the IDF has officially said I think 15 of its soldiers had been killed in just the last 48 to 24 hours.

Is Israel prepared for what they say is going to be a different type of operation inside Gaza, not only in terms of length, but also their

strategy, which seems to be to siege the area as a whole. I was really struck by one analyst said in comparing Hamas to the Viet Cong rather than

ISIS and what they're prepared for.


RONEN BERGMAN, STAFF WRITER, "NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE: Yeah, thank you for the invite. I think that the comparison to ISIS was about the

horrifying tortures, the humane of victims, the massacre method that they used, they document, and they spread all over their social media, not about

necessarily the war tactics or the religious that they follow, if you could call it religious.

Now on Israel, Israel was not willing to fight to go to this kind of war under four different prime ministers. There was a small level one land

incursion in 2008. It was stopped in the middle because the leaders of Israel as all other leaders throughout the years since then were afraid

that the casualties from IDF soldiers as well as civilians from Gaza, the price would be too high, too high for the Israeli public and soldiers, too

high for the international public community and public opinion.

When it comes to Palestinians, Israelis, of course also trying to refrain from civilian casualties. And this kept Israelis at bay and satisfied them

only with aerial, I would say, comment -- aerial reply to Hamas -- missiles and rockets. This has changed. This has all changed on October 7th.

The magnitude of what happened on October 7th supersedes those two reasons, which is regular times in pre-history, before October 7th, before

everything changed, were enough to prevent Israel from going on ground incursion. Even the hostages did not prevent Israel from going there.

I think Israel is, as far as I understand from Israeli leaders and their mindset, Israeli defense officials, they are willing to continue with this

campaign for as long as it takes until, using their words, they dismantle the military infrastructure of Hamas. The question is whether the U.S. and

the international community allow Israel to continue for so long.


ASHER: Ronen, Zain here. I want to ask about the rescue, the really impressive, actually our last guest called it heroic rescue of the IDF

soldier. Because initially, we thought that she was released, then that turned out to be some kind of translation error and she was actually


What more do we know about how exactly the Israelis were able to pull that off? Because apparently, she wasn't with other hostages, she was by

herself. What intel led to that rescue?

BERGMAN: So, first of all, not all the hostages are being held in one place. Not all the hostages are being held by Hamas are in one place.

Hamas, I think, deliberately is trying to position them in different strategic places to use them as human shields, to defend their bases and

their leaders.

But there are other organizations that are holding hostages and some private individuals. Some, you know, since something, the invasion started

at 6:35 in the morning, then something around 11 noon time, Hamas started to spread the rumor in Gaza -- the defense is open, and people started to

kick. They loot, they murdered, they tortured, they butchered, and some of them kidnapped people.

So, the problem from the Israeli intelligence point of view is not just to rescue the hostages, soldiers and civilians as dangerous as it is, but also

to know where they are. And they are scattered all over. And they are investing enormous effort.

What we saw, this specific targeted point operation to rescue the soldier was the result of massive collection of intelligence by hundreds, if not

more, of Israelis defense officials and experts trying to identify where exactly are they holding it and if it is possible with reasonable risk to

free any of them.

GOLODRYGA: Speaking of intelligence, you've been writing so much about Israeli intelligence trying to stay one step ahead of Iran's intentions in

the region. I was struck by the photo frame behind you, Israel versus Iran. Obviously, that is the big question. What is Iran's intentions -- whether

they plan on expanding this war and inciting more fighting with Hezbollah or not.

Unfortunately, we're out of time, but Ronan, please come back and join us to talk about that specific angle, as well. We appreciate it.


Ronan Bergman, staff writer for "The New York Times" magazine.

ASHER: All right, on to some other news that we are following. Donald Trump, Jr. preparing to testify about what he knows about the family

business. We'll have a live update on the Trump fraud trial. Coming up, next.


ASHER: All right, Donald Trump, Jr. could take the stand later Wednesday in the civil fraud trial against his family and its businesses, as well.

Donald Trump, Jr. and his brother Eric are senior executives at the Trump Organization and also defendants in the case, as well.

GOLODRYGA: They and their father are accused of fraudulently inflating the value of the company's assets. The former president's daughter, Ivanka, is

set to testify next week. Donald Trump Sr. is not expected to be in court for their testimony.

We've never really called him Donald Trump Sr. before. Let's go to CNN's Kara Scannell, who is live outside the courthouse. So, Kara, remind us

what's at stake in this trial and who we are expected to hear from today.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Bianna, Zain. So, the New York Attorney General has sued Donald Trump and those two sons alleging that

they had inflated the value of their assets on their financial statements that were given to banks and in exchange they received favorable interest

in loans which helped enrich them.

So, today we are actually hearing the testimony of the Attorney General's expert witness in this case. And he has just testified that through these

inflated state financial statements, which the judge has already found to be fraudulent, that the Trumps had benefitted by the tune of $168 million.

Now, remember, James had sued seeking $250 million in discouragement and damages. So, this is their expert now saying that they actually benefited

by at least $168 million on four specific loans at issue in the case. So, that when this is under cross-examination and after his cross-examination

wraps, that is when Donald Trump, Jr. will take the stand, the first of the Trumps to testify in this case.

Now, Donald Trump, Jr. had signed the financial statements at issue here since 2017. When his father became president, he also signed annual bank

certifications saying to the banks as part of these loans that Trump's net worth remained above $2.5 billion. So, he's expected to be questioned about


Now, he has testified in a deposition last year where he said that he had no recollection of being involved in the preparation of the financial

statements. He said he didn't approve them. He didn't review them.

And when he signed those bank certifications, he said he did so after speaking with lawyers and accountants. So, his testimony last year was

distancing himself from these statements at the heart of the case and we expect that he will continue with that posture today.

Now, this cross-examination will continue once we get to the after the lunch break, which goes for about an hour. They estimated that they could

have another hour's worth of cross, so Donald Trump Jr. could get on the stand just before the end of the day or it could lead into tomorrow.

Bianna, Zain?

GOLODRYGA: All right, Kara Scannell reporting from the courthouse. Donald Trump, Jr. testifying maybe today or tomorrow in his father's civil fraud



Thank you so much, Kara.

ASHER: Donald Trump, Sr., right?


ASHER: All right. Coming up after the break. Britain moves forward with Kenya while acknowledging the colonial past. Will King Charles state visit

satisfy the Kenyan people? We'll have that story after the break.


GOLODRYGA: King Charles has stopped short of an apology for the wrongs Britain inflicted on Kenyans during the era of colonial rule.

ASHER: Yeah, some Kenyans say they want reparations for human rights abuses that was committed by the British Empire. Here's our Max Foster with more.


MAX FOSTER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Elizabeth II became Queen while visiting Kenya in 1952 on the death of her father. That same year, Mau Mau

freedom fighters led by Dedon Kamathi rebelled against British rule.

London responded by declaring a state of emergency, and its military rounded up more than 90,000 Kenyans who were tortured, maimed and or

killed, according to the Kenyan Human Rights Commission. Their death warrants signed by the British hang in the tunnel of martyrs in Nairobi


Those who died in the resistance are honored here at the Tomb of the Unknown Warrior, along with all of Kenya's fallen heroes. King Charles

coming here to lay a wreath. But for many Kenyans they want more than gestures.

FOSTER (voice-over): The British government did concede in 2013 that it sincerely regretted the abuses, but it hasn't accepted responsibility or

liability. But it has paid out a settlement of $30 million to more than 5000 Kenyans who claimed human rights abuses. This mural depicts Kemafe.

His daughter Evelyn wants a full apology from Charles and reparations from the U.K.

EVELYN WANJUGU KIMATHI, DAUGHTER OF MAU MAU FREEDOM FIGHTER: Though we are not expecting so much because we have tried to reach them but they are

telling us he is not a political leader and he cannot make any political decision. But his willpower, his goodwill is the one we want.

FOSTER: Would the King go further and offer a full apology? This is what he said at a state banquet held in his honor by President Ruto of Kenya.

CHARLES III, KING OF THE UNITED KINGDOM: The wrongdoings of the past are a cause of the greatest sorrow and the deepest regret.


There were abhorrent and unjustifiable acts of violence committed against Kenyans as they waged, as you said at the United Nations, a painful

struggle for independence and sovereignty. And for that, there can be no excuse.

FOSTER: So, short of a full apology and no mention of reparations.

WILLIAM RUTO, KENYAN PRESIDENT: While there has been efforts to atone for the death, injury, and suffering inflicted on Kenyan Africans by colonial

government, much remains to be done in order to achieve full reparations.

WANJUGU KIMATHI: We will still continue pushing. Yeah, the struggle continues.

FOSTER: As it does in an increasing number of former British colonies across Africa and the Caribbean. Max Foster, CNN, Nairobi, Kenya.


ASHER: Yeah, Britain's painful past continues to haunt it. Obviously, it does have to come to terms with some of the abuses that were committed. All

right, I'm Zain Asher. Thank you so much for being with us.

GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga. Thank you so much for watching. Amanpour is next.