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One World with Zain Asher

Threat of Renewed Fighting Looms In Israel-Hamas War; Delegates From Around The World Gather In Dubai For COP28. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired November 30, 2023 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello everyone, live from New York, I'm Bianna Golodryga.

ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: And I am Zain Asher. This is ONE WORLD. So, there is a formula that has really sort of kept the Israel Hamas truce going for

the past seven days. It's kept it intact for seven days now. That is that hostages must be freed if the pause is supposed to continue. But the big

question is, of course, how much longer can this last?

GOLODRYGA: What we do know is Hamas is releasing more hostages today. Two women have already been freed. A 40-year-old and a 21-year-old. You may

recall seeing her in our coverage over the past few weeks, Mia Shem, who was the very first hostage that Hamas released video of in captivity.

Israel says hostages are being released in separate groups today because they were held in different places in Gaza.

ASHER: But here's the problem. It does appear as though Hamas may indeed be running out of women and children that they are able to set free. So the

question now becomes, are they going to start releasing male hostages? Are they going to release male adults? Or could the truce be about to come to

an end?

So, the point is that there is a major crossroad that we are in right now. Israel has been very clear that it's only going to keep its guns silent as

long as Hamas continues to release at least 10 hostages per day.

GOLODRYGA: Now, with the looming threat of renewed fighting, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is back in Israel. It's his third visit

to the region, to the country since October 7th. He met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and with senior U.S. officials saying that Washington is

pushing Israel to be more precise in their targeting in Gaza so as to avoid massive casualties. Blinken also went to the West Bank for talks with

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

Our Alex Marquardt is tracking the latest diplomatic efforts to keep the pause going. And Alex, it's just that. It is a pause. And the U.S. is under

no illusions that Israel does not plan on resuming its war and its campaign against Hamas inside of Gaza. But interesting to hear the details coming

out of the meeting with Prime Minister Netanyahu about what a second fighting front would look like because the U.S. really is pushing for it to

look quite different from what we saw in northern Gaza.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, when you listen, Bianna, to Israeli officials, there is no doubt in their mind that

at some point, and some point perhaps very soon, this fighting is going to resume. Prime Minister Netanyahu saying just yesterday that he keeps

getting this question of after this stage when all the hostages who have been released in this part of the deal, so that's women and children, if

there -- if Israel will resume the fighting, he said, unequivocally, yes.

So, the U.S. and, of course, the rest of the world, but most importantly, the Gazans themselves are bracing for what could come next. The

expectation, Bianna, is that Israel wants to move its operations into the southern part of the Gaza Strip. Now, remember, Israel told North Gaza

residents to go south, because their initial operations were focused on the north.

So, now you have 1.8 million Gazans. The majority of the 2.2 million Gaza population who are in the South and displaced. And so, the major concern

that Blinken is expressing today is that those civilians could be under significant threat, of course, once Israel starts its operations back up

again.

So, we're seeing Blinken say it rather publicly today, but also we've heard from senior Biden administration officials briefing reporters, saying that

they are telling Israel that once they start these operations back up again, they need to be much more cautious. They need to be much more

surgical about going after Hamas in a way to minimize the civilian casualties. Of course, we now see a death toll of more than 14,000 people

in Gaza, the vast majority of whom are believed to be civilians. Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: In the meantime, Alex, it does appear that it came down to the wire to extend this truce for even one more day. That is expires Friday

morning. What, if anything, are you hearing from your sources about the effort that the U.S. is making, that Secretary Blinken is making, to extend

that for as long as possible, assuming that more hostages are released by Hamas?

MARQUARDT: Well, and that certainly raises questions about what's going to happen tomorrow. We do think that today will go well, and today is day

seven, after a rather bumpy evening. From our understanding, Hamas, as they do every night, sent Israel a list of 10 hostages they proposed they were

going to release the next day.

[12:05:00]

There were two lists, sources tell us, that were unacceptable to Israel. The first was seven women and children and three bodies of people who had

died. Israel said no to that. The second list that they sent along was seven women and children, and three elderly people, who we presume to be

men. Israel also said no to that.

So, what we're seeing today, Bianna, is actually a release of eight hostages. And the reason that is below 10 is because there were two other

women who were released yesterday who are going to count towards today's release. So, we've already seen two hostages released today. We expect to

see six more.

But then the question becomes, as it does every night, what will happen tomorrow? The expectation is that Hamas will then present another list of

at least 10 to be released tomorrow. Whether that list is deemed acceptable by Israel, remains to be seen.

But the expectation, Bianna, is that once Hamas has no more women and children to release and, again, we don't know the conditions of the people

still being held inside Gaza, then that fighting could resume. So, even if more releases take place tomorrow, the fighting could resume as soon as

this weekend. Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: All right, Alex Marquardt for us. Thank you. And Zain, I keep thinking about our interview with the First Lady of Israel, who said that

every night there's a sick game among Israelis.

ASHER: Right. Right.

GOLODRYGA: Who will be on that next list of hostages to be released?

ASHER: Yeah, that is the big. I mean, it's essentially a lottery at this point. I want to bring in Oren Liebermann to talk to us a little bit more

about the release of the hostages today. So Oren, we just had Alex Marquardt just laying, giving us sort of an overview of where things stand

in terms of the hostages being released. Obviously, two hostages have been released already. We're expecting another eight to be released at some

point today.

But the fact that it's happening in this sort of piecemeal manner because apparently these hostages are being held in different parts of Gaza, also

the fact that Hamas initially wanted to release three bodies yesterday, which Israel said no to. What does that tell us about the fact that Hamas

may indeed at this point be running out of women and children? And what happens next?

Well, that's the brutal, cold, hard math of the agreement that we're looking at. It is a truce and a pause in the fighting that is entirely

dependent upon the release of women and children. That's all this agreement is for.

That's all this agreement is approved to be for. Once that number runs out and there aren't enough women and children to meet the number of 10

required for a continued 24 hours of a pause in the fighting, statements we've heard from both sides here indicate that they are ready to resume the

fighting.

Israel has said it's ready to resume it in an even stronger way. So that question, Alex pointed this out is critically important. How many more

women and children are there inside Gaza and how long can that sustain the truce?

It's worth pointing out a few different elements of today's release. First, it started at least a little earlier in the day before 4 P.M. which is

fairly early based on what we've seen over the course of the past six days. That being said, it's not complete yet and there are a number of others

that we expect to be released throughout the evening. Only at that point will Israel be ready from what we've seen to release Palestinian women and

children held in Israeli prisons.

The Hamas release also happened in Palestine Square, which is in Gaza City itself. That is an area where the IDF, the Israeli military, has been

operating. So, the fact that Hamas chose to do the handover to the Red Cross there, perhaps trying to send a message to Israel, you don't have

complete control over northern Gaza, as you have claimed.

As you pointed out, those two released women are now in Israeli territory. They're going to Khatsaryim Air Base in southern Israel, where they will

then be taken on to their hospitals. It's also worth pointing out that the release took place despite an attack in Jerusalem claimed by Hamas that

killed three Israeli civilians shortly after the deal was set to expire at about 7 o'clock this morning.

Despite that, the deal itself in Gaza, and that's crucially the point here, is that the deal relates to only Gaza, held together for another release.

Secretary of State Antony Blinken here trying to see if it's possible to extend this even further. But, Zain, as I pointed out, there's an open

question. How many more women and children are there before you have to expand this agreement and all the complexities, all the difficulties in new

negotiations.

ASHER: All right, Oren Liebermann, life was there. Thank you so much.

GOLODRYGA: Well, Palestinians in Gaza are bracing for the possibility of the fighting to resume once again on what may be the final day of this

extended truce. Many of them are stocking up on food and essential supplies in preparation of what could come next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMED ALBASHA, GAZA RESIDENT (through translator): Everyone is shopping since it is the last day of the truce. One is scared of what will happen

tomorrow, so they prepare accordingly. We wish that this is the last day of the war, and we can be done with all this, from the chaos to the

displacement. This is what we wish for.

ASHER: People there have been through so much over the past eight weeks in southern Gaza. What you're looking at is a man essentially standing on the

rubble among the rubble of a destroyed mosque performing the Muslim call to prayer despite the immense destruction. I mean look at that all around him

-- buildings basically reduced to rubble. This is in Khan Younis, by the way, essentially dust right now.

Israel is facing growing international pressure right now to protect as many civilians as they can as and when the fighting resumes. Spain's Prime

Minister now says he has serious doubts that Israel is actually complying with international law in Gaza. In response, Israel recalled its ambassador

to Spain for consultation, saying that the Spanish PM's remarks were simply outrageous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHER: Well, the lull in fighting certainly gives Israel and Hamas sort of a chance to pause and really sort of assess and think about what happens

next politically, militarily and diplomatically, as well. Israel's Prime Minister, for one, is doubling down on his promise to eradicate Hamas.

Benjamin Netanyahu says that today's deadly attacks in Jerusalem shows that Hamas is intent on murder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Nothing will stop us. We will continue this war until we reach our three objectives, free all of our

hostages, eliminate Hamas till the end, and to ensure that we won't face such a threat from Gaza ever again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Meantime, the U.S. is seeking some restraint. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is back in the region amid political pressure on the

Biden administration. Washington wants Israel to take a more surgical approach in possible military offensive in southern Gaza, not wanting to

see a repeat of the punishing airstrikes that led to the massive destruction and deaths in northern Gaza.

ASHER: All right. Let's take a look at what lies ahead for Israel just in terms of this war and also what lies ahead for Prime Minister Netanyahu.

People are saying that his political career is essentially over. I want to bring in David Horowitz. He's the founding editor of the online newspaper,

"The Times of Israel".

David, thank you so much for being with us. I was speaking to a friend of mine in Israel this morning, and she was saying that even though, of

course, she doesn't know any of the hostages being released personally, it does feel exceptionally personal to her, in that every single time she sees

the sort of Red Cross van and another mother or another child is released, it feels as though it is her mother she's watching. It feels as though it

is her child that is being released.

And that -- the fact is that every Israeli family knows that it could have been their door. It could have been their door that Hamas knocked on that

day and that is why it is so intensely personal. That being said, though, how much longer can this truce really go on for? I mean, obviously, it is

good for morale in Israel to see this many hostages being released, but how much longer can this truce go on for before it puts Israel at a massive

military disadvantage?

DAVID HOROVITZ, EDITOR, "THE TIMES OF ISRAEL": Those are really good questions. And you know, Hamas didn't knock on the door. It slaughtered

1200 Israelis and abducted those 240. And what sort of guided the government in the policy that it's followed is that there were potentially

240 lives that hadn't been lost and that could be saved. And therefore it paused its necessary effort, I think most Israelis would say, to try and

defang and dismantle Hamas because Hamas would do it again.

But as your reporting has underlined, women and children first, Hamas, by its standards, has made relatively mild demands, three Palestinian security

prisoners for each Israeli hostage. When the women and children are freed, and please God, they will be, and today's release will go ahead as

scheduled, there's not that many women, and there's very few children left, then we anticipate Hamas will make larger demands.

It will seek, you know, really terrible murderous terrorists, including people who were captured on October the 7th. And then it will become very

difficult because there will be the twin imperatives, if you like, Israel's desire, need to secure the release of the hostages and its need to

dismantle Hamas so that this doesn't happen again.

GOLODRYGA: Well, David, Israel and the IDF have been adamant in almost every time they've spoken publicly that they wouldn't be able to get Hamas

to release the hostages they have thus far without their aggressive military campaign in northern Gaza.

That having been said, how do you go, and this is a question we keep asking, how do you go about pursuing that ultimate goal of defeating Hamas,

even its leadership? Yahya Sinwar, as has been noted, is a dead man walking.

But there are those who say that may be another few months or even years before that comes to fruition. But even harder is how do you kill that

ideology, especially when you're seeing a resurgence in popularity for the group, not maybe among Gazans, but even now in the West Bank, where you're

seeing some of their prisoners released home, and Hamas is getting credit for that.

HOROVITZ: Look, again, good questions, because what Israel is facing is a kind of death cult Islamic extremist movement, but it's also the government

of the quasi-state next door.

[12:15:00]

You've got two million guards and civilians. Nobody, certainly not me, can tell you how many of them support Hamas utterly, how many of them loathe

Israel and support Hamas a bit, how many of them loathe Hamas, but you're fighting a sort of army terror group government that uses those civilians,

those non-combatants, to protect itself from being tackled by Israel. It's incredibly complicated.

I don't think Israel believes that it can kill the idea. I think Israel would like to think that it can prevent Hamas from posing a threat in the

future, and that means taking apart its military capabilities, trying to eliminate its leaders, showing that terrorism can't state sponsored

terrorism, terrorism embedded in a state can be destroyed. It's incredibly complicated.

And the previous reporting that you had just now underlines it. You've got the United States that wants Israel to destroy Hamas because they know how

dangerous this ideology and the willingness to kill is, but they don't want civilians harmed. And yet Hamas is embedded among the civilians. It's a

huge challenge.

ASHER: I mean, that's an incredible -- incredibly difficult moral dilemma for Israel. I do want to talk about Prime Minister Netanyahu, because Alon

Pinkas wrote an op-ed in "Haaretz" that I was reading this morning, and the title was, "Israel-Gaza War Enters a New Phase, Saving Private Netanyahu".

I mean, he talks about the fact that Netanyahu has gone to great lengths to avoid responsibility, to avoid accountability here. And given the sort of

lapses in intelligence that brought Israel to this point, it's clear whether or not the country is going to forgive him for that once this war

is over.

My question to you is, is there a way for Netanyahu to perhaps conduct this war, let's say, if he does somehow miraculously manage to free at least

most, I'm not saying all, but at least most of the hostages? Is there perhaps a way for public opinion and the public perception of Netanyahu at

this point to perhaps change for the better?

HOROVITZ: Look, he's a very adept politician. But this crisis that we're discussing that is leading the world's headlines and rightly because it's

fateful for the battle between those who value life and those who obsess and pursue death and killing, this battle is at its incredibly fateful

moment and Netanyahu's future is, as an Israeli - I'm not -- and I have lots to say about Netanyahu.

I'm most concerned about whether Israel will be able to dismantle, defang Hamas because I think the future of the state is at stake. Whether

Netanyahu can somehow emerge as the overseer of such a success, you know, I tend to doubt it. As you say, he's the person at the head of the hierarchy

that ultimately enabled Hamas to burst through into Israel on October the 7th. Of course, it's the military that failed Israelis, but he's in charge

of the military.

So, yeah, it's a question, Netanyahu's fate, Netanyahu's future. But forgive me for not being obsessed about it as someone who cares a lot about

Israeli politics because for us, I think the challenge for Israelis is, are we going to be able to prevent Hamas doing this again, deterring Israel's

other enemies, and enabling Israelis to go back to their homes? This is a tiny country. It's the size of New Jersey, 200,000 people displaced at the

moment. They need to be sure that they can sleep safely in their beds.

ASHER: So, for you, the sort of political blame game or Netanyahu saying sorry or apologizing is not your priority, personally speaking. Just

getting rid of Hamas and defanging Hamas as you put it is the number one thing really on your mind. David, we have to leave it there. Appreciate

your thoughts. Thank you so much.

HOROVITZ: Of course, I'll just say, he should of course say, I'm sorry, it was my fault.

ASHER: Right. Right.

GOLODRYGA: We'll have you back. There are plenty of opportunities to continue this conversation on that point. David Horovitz, thank you. Well,

big news out of the COP28 climate conference in Dubai, but it's not without controversy. After the break, why the UAE is facing criticism for even

hosting this summit.

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[12:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ASHER: All right, 2023 is shaping up to be the hottest year on record. And one thing is clear, time is running out to prevent irreversible harm from

climate change. That is the message that we're hearing at the COP28 climate conference taking place right now in Dubai. You've got delegates from

around the world gathered there. And the main thing that -- the main focus right now is sort of trying to find a consensus when it comes to dealing

with climate change.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, there has been some criticism of an oil producing country hosting a climate summit with the head of the state oil company, Sultan Al-

Jaber, serving as the President of the gathering. Al-Jaber says oil companies need to play a key role in climate change solutions. He has

already strongly denied reports leaked on based on leaked documents suggesting that the UAE delegation planned to offer visiting officials oil

and gas projects.

ASHER: Well, despite all of the controversy, there has certainly been some good news. Delegates formally adopted a damage fund that would help

developing countries, poorer countries, deal with the effects of climate change.

GOLODRYGA: This has been a big priority for the summit. Some countries have already pledged donations, including almost a quarter billion dollars

from the E.U. and 100 million from both Germany and the UAE. David McKenzie takes a look at day one of the summit.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If there was ever any doubt, the future is now. A year of disasters spanning

the globe, made so much worse by the climate crisis.

ANTONIO GUTERRES, UNITED NATIONS SECRETARY GENERAL: The air is unbreathable, the heat is unbearable and the level of fossil fuel profits

and climate inaction is unacceptable. Leaders must lead.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): These critical climate meetings, led by a major fossil fuel producer, were controversial before they even began. Leaks

released this week by the Center for Climate Reporting showing what appear to be briefing papers for COP President Sultan Al-Jaber, who is head of the

state oil company, allegedly pitching fossil fuel deals for the UAE on the side.

The COP President calls the allegations false and incorrect. Sometimes I am told you need to engage with governments and with oil and gas companies to

put pressure. And sometimes I'm told, you can't do that. So, we're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): The UAE is saying that they are here because all countries including oil producers need to come up with solutions to the

climate crisis.

ANN HARRISON, CLIMATE ADVISOR, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL: Yes, they need to be part of the negotiations, but what you can't have is somebody who is

putting fossil fuel companies' interests ahead of the negotiations and the outcome that we need.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): The outcome that the U.N. and many others hope for, a concrete plan for a fossil fuel phase out. The recent U.N report shows

that the globe is wildly off track to meet emissions targets.

ANI DASGUPTA, CEO, WORLD RESOURCE INSTITUTE: It's critical for countries to come together and agree to a systematic reduction in a time bar

reduction. I mean, this is a true moment for leadership.

[12:25:00]

It's not about technology or technical things. It's commitment leadership that this is something we need to do. We need to come together. Rich

countries have to help poorer countries.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): The harsh reality -- countries that have the least responsibility for climate change will feel the most catastrophic impact.

KAISA KOSONEN, HEAD OF DELEGATION, GREENPEACE: At this COP, they need to have guarantees that there will be a fund with sufficient money in it to

deal with the loss and damages. So, the impacts -- they can no longer avoid and they just have to cope with.

MCKENZIE: If that doesn't happen what's the consequence of that?

KOSONEN: The consequences is lost lives, you know, livelihoods, futures.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): And the consequence for all of us, if bold steps are not taken now, are too terrible to contemplate. David McKenzie, CNN,

Dubai.

ASHER: All right, still to come here on ONE WORLD -- no matter what you thought of Henry Kissinger, I think we can all agree he was one of the most

consequential foreign policy figures of our time. As the world remembers the former U.S. Secretary of State, we're going to take a look at his

legacy. That story, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ASHER: All right, welcome back to ONE WORLD. I'm Zain Asher.

GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga. Well, he was both revered and reviled. But there is no question about the indelible mark Henry Kissinger

left on American and global foreign policy.

[12:30:00]

ASHER: Yeah, tributes have been pouring in across the world for former U.S. Secretary of State. He died on Wednesday at the age of 100. There has

also been criticism, as well, to be fair. CNN's Richard Roth reports, Kissinger leaves behind a very controversial and complicated legacy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNKNOWN: I know all of you will want to hear from the new Secretary of State.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Henry Kissinger never really needed an introduction on the world stage again. Kissinger,

the most famous statesman of the last half of the 20th century. Celebrated and controversial.

As Richard Nixon's National Security Advisor and Secretary of State, the diplomat wielded enormous power and influence. So trusted that it was

Kissinger who went to China on a secret mission to explore a historic opening of U.S. relations with communist China.

HENRY KISSINGER, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Whoever went would be alone in Beijing with no communication. And therefore, if he didn't know

Nixon's mind, he might do foolish things.

ROTH (voice-over): Initially, there were fears a U.S.-China Ping Pong exchange match would affect the high state's political gambit.

KISSINGER: Every once in a while something happens in diplomacy which transcends the drafting of cables.

ROTH (voice-over): Vietnam. Casualties mounted as the Vietnamese gained territory. Nixon and an undiplomatic Kissinger thought more bombing of the

North would help.

HENRY KISSINGER, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: I would then recommend that we start bombing the bejeezus out of them within 48 hours.

ROTH (voice-over): Kissinger approved secret bombings of North Vietnamese units in Cambodia without congressional approval. He would say sometimes

statesmen have to choose among evils, moral compromises in messy conflicts. Kissinger and his Vietnamese counterpart, Le Duc Tho, were awarded the

Nobel Peace Prize for their role in negotiating a ceasefire.

KISSINGER: I have to say I have never dealt with a group of people as treacherous as the North Vietnamese leadership.

ROTH (voice-over): Kissinger insisted trouble on the home front hurt chances to succeed in Vietnam.

KISSINGER: We lost the war because we were divided and also because we were too uncertain about what we wanted.

ROTH (voice-over): Kissinger's support for a coup in Chile and pro-U.S. military strongmen in other parts of the world drew criticism. Kissinger's

legacy would be contested decades later when he testified in Congress at the age of 91. Kissinger grew up in Germany with war clouds swirling. His

family fled when he was 15.

KISSINGER: About half of the people I went to school with and about 13 members of my own family died in concentration camps.

ROTH (voice-over): A Jewish Secretary of State who would later listen to his President criticize American Jewish leaders.

RICHARD NIXON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT (voice clip): It's about goddamn time that the Jew in America realizes he's an American first and a Jew second.

KISSINGER (voice clip): Well, I couldn't agree more.

KISSINGER: I only heard anti-Semitic comments when some Jewish group would attack him for something he had done.

ROTH (voice-over): In the Middle East, Kissinger performed what came to be known as shuttle diplomacy to separate Israeli and Arab forces, setting the

stage for future peace accords. When Nixon resigned as President, Kissinger stayed on as Gerald Ford Secretary of State, his opinion still widely

sought after by governments and businesses after leaving public office.

KISSINGER: You want to leave your country better off than you found it. And there's nothing in private life you can do that's as interesting and as

fulfilling.

ROTH (voice-over): There was one job Kissinger said he never got to do in his life, a sports announcer.

KISSINGER: Derek who?

ROTH (voice-over): However the globe-trotting diplomat did star in some of history's biggest games.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: Well, time now for The Exchange, where we take a deeper look at Henry Kissinger and the legacy he leaves behind. Joining us now is CNN

Presidential Historian Tim Naftali. Tim, good to see you. So, I mean, the introduction sort of bared it all out. He was both revered and reviled. And

yet he advised 12 U.S. Presidents.

He really opened the door to relations with China decades ago and even at 100 years old was welcomed with open arms and treated like royalty when he

returned to China just a few months ago over the summer. In the few moments that we have with you, tell us what comes to mind when you think back on

his legacy.

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, although it's been almost 50 years since he held a government position in the cabinet, Henry

Kissinger helped lay the groundwork for structures in our international system that remains today. That's why presidents sought his advice.

[12:35:00]

And that's why foreign leaders sought to talk to him. Our -- the United States relationship with Egypt, for example, let alone sought his

relationship with China is a product of Kissinger's diplomacy. So, he remained relevant even after the Cold War ended. So, that's one reason why

he was not a man of the past until his death yesterday.

The other element that's so important is that Henry Kissinger and Nixon were trying to find a way to disengage from Vietnam without seeing a

collapse of U.S., of American reputation, and of America's commitment to its alliances and in trying to do that, both men committed grave errors and

showed a moral blindness.

And it's that moral blindness that is the source of the controversies we hear today, about today. It is the consequences for the people of Cambodia,

for example, of the U.S. decision to intervene in that country. To be fair, North Vietnam had already intervened, but the U.S. decision to intervene in

that country.

The consequences for the Kurdish people of the U.S. decision to engage in covert action in the northern part of Iraq. The consequences for the people

of Chile when the United States decided not only to engage in covert action to overturn the elected government of Salvador Allende, but then to support

the dictatorial regime of Augusto Pinochet. It's those consequences for people not simply the architecture that Kissinger helped create, that makes

his legacy so complex and flawed.

ASHER: Yeah, I mean, the bombing of Cambodia in 1969 and 1970 is just, yes, as you point out, a massive problem for his legacy. I do want to talk

about Israel, because obviously for the past eight weeks you've been talking about the war between Israel and Hamas.

And you touched on this a bit, just this idea of how influential Henry Kissinger was in terms of changing the landscape, the diplomatic landscape

in the Middle East. After the Yom Kippur War, just essentially creating a peaceful relationship between Egypt and Israel, paving the way for the Camp

David Accords. Just talk to us about that aspect of his legacy, too.

NAFTALI: Henry Kissinger was a brilliant tactician and engineer, a brilliant diplomat. Those talents that helped him create architecture, but

which also provided him with this moral blind spot, were perfectly adept to the disengagement negotiations following the Yom Kippur War.

The fact that the United States, while being closest to Israel, was able to establish a close relationship with countries that had fought Israel in the

aftermath of the Yom Kippur War -- in the aftermath of the oil crisis, was nothing less than extraordinary.

The U.S., after the Yom Kippur War, not only retained a close relationship with Israel, but developed this enduring relationship with Egypt, opened a

secret back channel to the PLO, and even attempted to have a relationship with Syria. The latter didn't turn out as well as the first two. But that

was Kissinger.

ASHER: Right.

GOLODRYGA: Tim, sorry. We are tight on time. But of course, we'll be covering his legacy, his controversial legacy, throughout the day here.

Henry Kissinger, dead at 100 years of age. CNN Presidential Historian Tim Naftali, thank you.

ASHER: Thank you, Tim.

GOLODRYGA: Coming up for us, Elon Musk has a message for the companies that quit advertising on his social media platform. And no, he does not

hold back. I think we have to bleep a few things. We're actually going to play it for you. But we'll here what he has to say after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(CONNECTING AFRICA)

[12:45:00]

(CONNECTING AFRICA)

[12:50:00]

(CONNECTING AFRICA)

[12:55:00]

(CONNECTING AFRICA)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END