Return to Transcripts main page
One World with Zain Asher
Military Plane In Russia Crashes Near Ukraine Border; There Are Now Over 150 Rocket And Missile Strikes At U.S. Troops Based In Iraq And Syria Since The Israel-Hamas War Began; Nikki Haley Vows To Stay In The Presidential Race; Boeing CEO Meets With Lawmakers Behind Closed Doors On Capitol Hill To Be In Full Damage Control Mode; Jury Selection Underway In The Michigan Trial Of Jennifer Crumbly. Aired 12-1p ET
Aired January 24, 2024 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Escalation on two fronts. "One World" starts right now. Russia pointing the finger at Ukraine, following a
deadly plane crash, and American military escalation in the Middle East, both raising global tensions, which are already sky high.
Also ahead, a mother on trial in connection with murders committed by her son. Why prosecutor says she bears some responsibility for her teenage
son's actions. And later, out with the North, in with the South. The results of the New Hampshire primary are in and all eyes are now on South
Carolina. Here are from one group of voters who say they'll stick with Trump even if he gets convicted.
Hello everyone, live from New York, I'm Bianna Golodryga. Zain is off today. You are watching "One World". We have two major escalations in
conflicts across the globe to bring you.
First in Russia, where a military plane carrying 74 people crashed near the border with Ukraine. The governor of the Belgorod region says no one
survived. Russia claims 65 Ukrainian prisoners of war were on board and says Ukraine anti-aircraft missiles brought the plane down. Ukraine claims
missiles were on that plane.
And in Iraq, the U.S. has carried out airstrikes against Iranian-backed militias. U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin says the strikes targeted
three facilities in response to increased attacks on U.S. forces. CNN's Oren Liebermann following the developments from the Pentagon for us, and
Matthew Chance is in London.
We begin with Matthew and the news out of that plane crash in Russia. Do we know right now who was on board that flight? We've heard from the Russians.
We have yet to hear from the Ukrainians.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The Ukrainians are being pretty tight-lipped about whether they even shot this plane down,
although the fact that it was in that border region, the Belgorod region, which has been an active war zone increasingly over the past several months
as Ukrainian forces try to deprive Russia of the freedom of movement inside its own territory and its own airspace, makes it very possible that this
was, indeed, some kind of anti-aircraft strike.
Indeed, Russia state television showed the twisted metal wreckage of the aircraft. You can see there are shrapnel marks inside some of the metal
panels which are, we're told, consistent with the impact of sort of anti- air missile munitions. But, you know, we shall see what information comes out.
Much more controversial is what was the cargo of that plane. The Russians have been pretty clear that they say there were people on board, that more
-- over 65 Ukrainian prisoners of war, that being ferried back home, essentially to take part in a prisoner swap. They were going to be released
The Ukrainians have cast some doubt on that. They haven't categorically denied that, but they've cast doubt on it, saying that their intelligence
suggests it was missiles on board the aircraft. If that's the case, obviously that would have been a high priority target for the Ukrainian air
defenses who are trying to prevent these kinds of munitions getting to the front line. But the truth of the matter at the moment is pretty unclear.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, and it is not unusual for Ukraine to remain silent following these types of attacks inside of Russian territory. What's
different this time around is the fact that there's a dispute as to who was on board, and it would be quite a tragedy if Ukraine was behind the killing
of a number of its own POWs.
So we have no confirmation of that. It's just what the Russians are saying at this point. Matthew Chance, thank you so much, and do keep us posted if
any developments happen there.
We want to turn now to the U.S. airstrikes on militia targets in Iraq. Oren Liebermann is at the Pentagon. And Oren, this strike was in response to an
attack on a major base in Iraq on Saturday. We've now seen over 150 rocket and missile strikes at U.S. troops based in Iraq and Syria since the
Israel-Hamas war began. So, things continue to escalate, not de-escalate. What are we hearing in response from the Pentagon now?
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's worth noting that one of the most recent attacks on U.S. forces in Iraq and Syria was just
over the weekend when there are a number of ballistic missiles that were fired at U.S. troops that were positioned at Ain al-Assad Air Base in Iraq.
Normally, the attacks are rockets and drones, which are no doubt serious, but ballistic missiles are clearly an escalation in the power and the type
of weapons used. It is at least partly because of that that the U.S. felt compelled to react here and respond, carrying out more airstrikes in Iraq.
We just got a preliminary battle damage assessment from the results of those strikes, and two U.S. defense officials tell CNN that at least seven
Qatayyib Hezbollah fighters were killed in the U.S. strikes that took place in both Western Iraq and Central Iraq, just south of Baghdad.
In addition, two headquarters for Qatayyib Hezbollah and an intelligence facility were destroyed in the strike. It's worth noting that the U.S.
considers Qatayyib Hezbollah responsible based on an initial assessment for that ballistic missile attack and hold them largely responsible for many of
the more than 150 attacks on U.S. forces in the region.
Those attacks have resulted in more than 80 injuries. At this point, the U.S. forces in Iraq and Syria, the vast majority of those minor, but of
course the U.S. considers them and takes them very seriously.
The U.S. has been pressuring the Iraqi government to do more to protect U.S. forces in Iraq. We're not really seeing that play out. Instead, the
Iraqi government putting pressure on the U.S. to stop the strikes, calling them a violation of Iraqi sovereignty and then attack on Iraq.
So, you see the tension there caused by the continued attack on U.S. forces and the U.S. response there, Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Oren Liebermann for us. Thank you. We're also following a developing story out of Gaza. The United Nations Relief Agency
reports that there are mass casualties after a strike on a U.N. shelter housing hundreds of displaced people.
The U.N. says the building near the embattled city of Khan Younis was hit by two tank rounds. The agency's Director of Affairs, Thomas White, says at
least nine people were killed and 75 injured. He spoke to CNN earlier this morning.
THOMAS WHITE, DIRECTOR, UNRWA AFFAIRS: There has been fighting in and around this area for two days. We are in constant contact with the Israeli
army, who have been giving us assurances that people in protected facilities, such as a shelter under a U.N. flag, or in fact a hospital, are
safe. The reality is that lives have been taken in and around these facilities in the last couple of days.
We have been seeking access to these facilities. That has been denied. We've not been able to get safe passage for these facilities. We did not
get warning and we do not get warning when these strikes happen in or around these protected facilities.
GOLODRYGA: CNN's International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson is in Tel Aviv with the latest for us. So Nic, we know that hundreds of civilians
were in these U.N. protected facilities. As we heard there from Thomas White, there appears to have been a shootout between the Israelis and Hamas
militants for the past two days. What are we hearing from the IDF in response to this news today?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah, we don't have new details yet from the IDF about this specific situation, this location. The
director there, the figures that he laid out, he said 40,000 people were at this training facility, this UNRWA training facility, taking shelter there
-- 40,000 displaced people, not an uncommon situation around Gaza. And it was the carpentry building that held 800 people that were struck by those
two tank rounds.
And you heard him describe a situation there where for the past couple of days there's been an uptick in fighting in that area. The eyewitnesses in
that shelter say that they can see tanks very close, that they can see people who had shrapnel injuries, but the UNRWA Director was able to sort
of describe the local area a bit better -- 150,000 people, he thought, were sort of encompassed, including those two hospitals by the IDF activity.
We know that the IDF have, through their alert system instructed people in the vicinity and at this U.N. displacement center, if you will, and at the
hospitals to leave the area because it's not safe and go to some of the declared safe areas.
But what the director described yesterday, or he described now but yesterday, that some people tried to leave the displaced persons' shelter
and they couldn't get out to where the IDF were telling them to go, he said, because tanks were blocking the route. And that's a similar meta
story that we're hearing from officials at the hospital.
But what the IDF has said today is that they now encircle completely Khan Younis, where this is taking place, that they have been targeting terror
cells, that they have taken control of Hamas weapons, that they found AK- 47s, explosives, RPGs, these sorts of things. They found weapons caches in that area.
But we do know that the intensity of the fight that continues and the U.N. pointing out how people are being caught up in harm's way -- nine killed at
this location, 75 injured.
GOLODRYGA: All right, Nic Robertson from Tel Aviv for us. Thank you. Well, former U.S. President Donald Trump has won New Hampshire's Republican
primary, moving him one step closer to a rematch with President Joe Biden in November.
It's the first time in the modern era that a non-incumbent Republican candidate has won the first two nominating contests. Speaking after
Tuesday's victory, Trump called on his only primary opponent, Nikki Haley, to drop out. He also took a few swipes at her, as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Who the hell was the imposter that went up on the stage before and, like,
claimed a victory? She did very poorly actually. Just a little note to Nikki -- she's not going to win.
When I watched her in the fancy dress that probably wasn't so fancy -- come up, I said, what's she doing? We won.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: By the way, she did acknowledge that Donald Trump won in her speech last night. Much to Trump's displeasure, Haley is vowing to stay in
the race with her sights now set on February's primary in her home state of South Carolina. Her campaign is pouring millions of dollars into ads just
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAMPAIGN AD FOR NIKKI HALEY, VOICE-OVER: Biden -- too old. Trump -- too much chaos. A rematch no one wants. There's a better choice for a better
America. Her story started right here. America's youngest governor, a conservative Republican, and boy did she deliver.
NIKKI HALEY, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's a great day in South Carolina.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: CNN's Omar Jimenez has more from the campaign trail.
OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Former President Trump -- victorious in New Hampshire, paving the way for him to clinch the
Republican nomination for the third time.
TRUMP: When you win Iowa and you win New Hampshire, they've never had a loss. There's never been. So, we're not going to be the first.
JIMENEZ (voice-over): His sole rival, Nikki Haley, remains optimistic and vows to stay in the race.
HALEY: New Hampshire is first in the nation. It is not the last in the nation. This race is far from over.
JIMENEZ (voice-over): Haley is still trying to convince Republicans that a shift away from Trump is the best path to victory in November.
HALEY: A Trump nomination is a Biden win and a Kamala Harris presidency. The first party to retire, its 80 year old candidate is going to be the
party that wins this election.
JIMENEZ (voice-over): Trump responded during his victory speech, lashing out at Haley, criticizing her for staying in the race.
TRUMP: I don't get too angry, I get even. We have to do what's good for our party. And she was up and I said, wow, she's doing like a speech like she
won. She didn't win, she lost.
JIMENEZ (voice-over): Haley is now looking ahead to her home state of South Carolina. But her path for the nomination is challenging after losses in
the first two voting states.
TIM SCOTT, U.S. SENATE REPUBLICAN: This election is over. It is time for the Republican Party to coalesce around our nominee.
JIMENEZ (voice-over): The former President also touted his endorsement from South Carolina's Senator, Tim Scott.
TRUMP: You must really hate her. No. It's a shame. It's a shame.
SCOTT: I just love you.
JIMENEZ (voice-over): Trump now wants to focus on his rematch with President Biden.
TRUMP: If we don't win, I think our country is finished. I do.
JIMENEZ (voice-over): Biden won the Democratic primary in New Hampshire overwhelmingly as a write-in candidate and says it's clear Trump will be
the Republican nominee.
JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: I believe 2024 is going to be the most important election we've had since 1864. I mean it and the reasons are clear.
Democracy is on the ballot.
JIMENEZ (voice-over): Biden is campaigning on abortion rights and sharpening his message against Trump.
BIDEN: I don't think this court and the MAGA Republicans have any clue about the power of women in America. I don't think they have any clue but
they're about to find out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JIMENEZ: Now, through all of this, Nikki Haley has maintained she is the strongest candidate to take on President Biden, but former President Trump,
after winning two states in a row, isn't buying that. The next primary contest is in South Carolina, and Haley's team has already announced plans
to spend millions of dollars in ads to help propel her campaign forward. It is obviously a critical state for her, her home state.
The primary, though, is on February 24th, so that is a lot of time to potentially build momentum for Haley but also, a lot of time to figure out
what the road ahead actually looks like if that road exists at all.
Omar Jimenez, CNN, Manchester, New Hampshire.
GOLODRYGA: Thanks to Omar for that. For more on this, let's bring in CNN's Senior Political Analyst and our friend, friend of the show, John Avlon.
John, good to see you.
So, on the surface, this was a big night for Donald Trump. He beat Nikki Haley by double-digit margins here -- 55 percent to 43 percent. But if you
look under the surface, there are still some problems for Donald Trump going into this, specifically with independent voters and whether or not he
can win and expand to a wider electorate.
Last night, we heard from Nikki Haley in her concession speech, where she said this race is far from over. There are dozens of states left to go. Up
next, obviously, her home state of South Carolina, where right now she's polling some 30 points behind Donald Trump. You still got a month to go
before that. Having said all of that, though, is she right? Is it far from over, or is it more of a done deal at this point?
JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think, look, she's preaching the triumph of hope over experience. At the end of the day, the campaign
will come down to whether she's got the dough. But I actually think there's a reasonable and, in fact, significant case to make why she should stay in.
Look, two states have voted. Yes, you know, Trump has won both. But he is functionally the incumbent in this race, so that should be taken with a
grain of salt. Nikki Haley's campaign is pointing towards states that have open primaries, where independent voters can participate.
That is a better gauge, tends to be a better gauge of general election success than these closed partisan primaries where, especially in the deep
south where Donald Trump is expected to romp to victory.
While it was, you know, 10, 11 point margin is significant, it did, as you pointed out, show some significant weaknesses in the -- in, in any
plausible Trump general election coalition among independents and moderates, and those are the folks who ultimately decide who wins elect win
elections in America.
GOLODRYGA: I guess the question is how far Nikki Haley is willing to take the path she's on right now, because what she's focusing on, and that is
his mental acuity, his age, both candidates age were obviously targeting Donald Trump now more than she has before, it's getting under his skin.
We saw him yesterday in what should have been a victory speech really attacking her instead. And John Sununu seems to have been a very good
surrogate for her up until this point. How much of this is riding on how far she's willing to go in attacking Donald Trump?
AVLON: Well, look, I think all the candidates made a mistake by tiptoeing around Donald Trump for too long. They were trying to effectively
triangulate around Trump in order to win over more Republicans and conservatives who are more inclined to defeat Donald Trump.
But you can't get around the fact that through the course of this campaign, he has insisted on election lies a litmus test, trying to make sure that
people back up. His lie is a condition of loyalty, which is frankly sinister with any sense of historic perspective.
You know, he is, of course -- tried to destroy our democracy by overturning the last election on the basis of that lie -- he's under 91 felony count
indictments. And one thing Haley could have at her time, as long as there is money, is time, i.e., the fever not -- doesn't break, because Donald
Trump's got a hardcore support that's not going anywhere.
But people start to look at the court cases. Maybe there's a conviction. Maybe he continues to underperform with moderates and independents and
folks start to say, you know what, this guy is not the best general election candidate.
He's the most polarizing candidate possibly, imagine he is most damaged candidate and he would take country in a dramatically different direction,
one that's not constitutionally conservative but is autocrat- adjacent. And those are stakes, I think, worth fighting for. I think we're at a stage
where we need to defend our democracy.
AVLON: And that takes a broad coalition. And Nikki Haley's trying to do her part within the Republican Party but I think to your point, she has not
taken that fight seriously and strongly enough. And so, now she's playing catch up.
GOLODRYGA: That's an argument that you just made that's in line with "The Wall Street Journal" editorial board this morning. I want to read for our
viewers just a portion of what they wrote. "If she can remain competitive, there's an argument for Ms. Haley to stay in the race through the July
convention. Mr. Trump faces a treacherous legal road and one of the cases against him could go to trial.
If he's convicted of a felony, 42 percent of voters in New Hampshire and nearly a third of Iowa's Republican caucus goers say Mr. Trump would be
unfit for the presidency. That would mean he can't win. Ms. Haley could stay in the race, rack up delegates and see what happens if he is found
guilty." That's a lot of ifs, but that clearly lays out a potential path.
AVLON: It's a lot of ifs and emphasize the word, potential. But, you know, this has felt more like a coronation. You know, it's particularly, I think,
obsequious when you've got these former, you know, competitors who Donald Trump has savaged in personal ways -- in ways that really attack their
dignity, their decency.
And then they always take the knee. They always come crawling back because of that combination of cowardice and careerism, which has, I think,
corrupted the Republican Party. And so, you know, it is honorable to try to present an alternative. I think ultimately that alternative will be outside
the Republican Party, given how much Trump has revealed that he controls a hardcore.
But there are at least 25 percent of Republicans who will not support Donald Trump as a matter of principle. That's bad news for a general
election. That's the last sliver of kind of a principled center-right that's willing to stand up to these sort of strongman pretenses and his
constant praise of dictators on the debates -- on stages, not debate stages, because he's afraid of those.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, I mean, to that point, he lost New Hampshire independence, getting 31 percent to 67 percent for Haley --
GOLODRYGA: -- if that's a sign of his issue on that front and expanding his base. Joe Biden was not on the ballot yesterday, though. He is appearing to
kick into full gear and campaign mode right now. His campaign says two top White House officials will be leaving their posts to join the re-election
effort versus Trump.
And yesterday, we saw him in Virginia really focusing hard on one issue that has been very, very strong for Democrats thus far, and that is
abortion. And Donald Trump explicitly saying and taking credit the last few weeks for personally being behind the overturning of Roe v. Wade. I want to
play sound from President Biden yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: Trump says he's proud that he overturned Roe v. Wade. Let's be absolutely clear what Trump is bragging about. It was Donald Trump and his
Supreme Court who ripped away the rights and freedoms of women in America. It'll be Joe Biden and Kamala Harris and all of you who are going to
restore those rights for the women in America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: John, is this the best issue Democrats have in hoping to beat Trump?
AVLON: I don't know if it's the best issue, but it's a significant issue. And one way you can tell that is every single one of the eight states that
have had abortion on the ballot, including deep red states in presidential elections like Kentucky and Montana, have voted to preserve abortion rights
in their constitution or reject attempts to ratchet it back. This is seen by a lot of folks, obviously, especially women, as an issue of freedom,
And these are -- let's not let the extremes on either issue of this distort the debate. This is about a constitutionally settled right that don't --
many of those justices affirmed in their hearings, that have been in place for fifty years.
And so, that rollback has really created massive headwinds for the Republican Party but they've got to blame themselves because it was part of
their agenda for a long time to come. And even now, a lot of Republicans are calling for a national ban -- 50-state ban, you know, restrictions.
You know, we've been -- they've part of the debate in the Republic States has been is it six weeks is it fifteen weeks. So, you know, that's an
argument but democracy, defending democracy with the broadest possible coalition is a strong argument. That the economy is improving.
In fact, America's economy has improved faster post-COVID than most of the other industrialized nations in the world. And a strong record of
bipartisan accomplishment, believe it or not, that has the potential to help grow the middle class, which is a key issue for Democrats and Joe
Biden going back. He can't stick on one issue, but it's an arrow in the quiver reservoir.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, and if the border security is as important as it appears to be for Republican voters, specifically the fact that this President can
stay publicly, that he's in favor of a deal and it's the Republicans who are standing in the way of it, that's also a problem for Donald Trump, as
well. John Avlon, great to see you my friend. Thank you.
AVLON: You too, Bianna. Be well.
GOLODRYGA: Coming up for us, the head of Boeing is now in damage control. More on Capitol Hill weeks after a mid-air blowout on an Alaska Airlines
jet and it may not be the only incident that he'll have to address. We'll tell you the latest.
GOLODRYGA: The CEO of Boeing will meet with lawmakers behind closed doors on Capitol Hill today, where he is expected to be in full damage control
mode, and the issue of safety will be front and center. Now, it comes just weeks after that terrifying mid-air blowout involving a door plug on an
Alaskan Airlines 737 MAX-9 jet. The FAA has grounded all 737 MAX-9 planes and has inspectors on the ground at Boeing's plant in Renton, Washington.
Boeing says that it will pause production for a full day tomorrow so that everyone can focus on quality control.
CNN's Pete Muntean joins me now live from Washington. Pete, really disconcerting when you hear from a number of CEOs of airlines saying that
they are concerned right now about the status and quality control of these Boeing planes. What are we expecting to hear from its CEO?
PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: You're so right, Bianna, about the damage control, about quality control. And this is the latest from
Boeing CEO Dave Calhoun who just spoke to reporters going into closed-door meetings with lawmakers on Capitol Hill. He says, he does not support the
ungrounding of the 737 MAX-9 until the plane is 100 percent safe.
The plot really thickening here all the time and the comments just yesterday from Alaska Airlines CEO, that they found many loose bolts on its
737 MAX-9s only underscore possible quality control issues at Boeing. The head of the FAA just told me that quality control is where its
investigation is now headed.
The FAA grounded the MAX-9 as it tries to figure out exactly which and exactly how airlines should inspect the planes for problems. FAA
Administrator Mike Whitaker told me in a one-on-one interview that the MAX- 9 door plug is a good design, but only one properly executed. Pretty big caveat there.
The bolts that hold the door plug on the plane are key. There are four of them. And if they are not installed, then the door can shimmy out of its
retaining grooves and shoot off with explosive force, like we saw back on January 5th on Alaska Flight 1282. Here is the sound bite from the FAA
administrator saying that quality control is now its focus.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL WHITAKER, FAA ADMINISTRATOR: We know this particular design has been in many other aircraft that are not the max, that have millions of
hours of operation. So, there's a fair amount of comfort around the design and everything that we are seeing is confirming that. So, it really takes
us to production, manufacturing, maintenance, those types of issues, and ensuring that the pieces are where they need to be and all the bolts are in
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MUNTEAN: The FAA now has inspectors on site at the blowing plant in Renton, Washington. The goal -- increase scrutiny on production problems where they
might be occurring. The FAA also now has a sampling of data from about a quarter of the MAX-9s in the United States, and it's looking at
measurements from that data before it issues any order to unground these planes.
I also asked the FAA Chief if the flying public should be afraid of the MAX-9, and he told me the FAA is not going to let the plane back in the air
until they are convinced that this issue is taken care of. Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: You know, however long that may take. Pete Muntean, thank you. Well, to make matters worse, Boeing is involved in yet another possible
safety incident amid all of this intense scrutiny. A 757 jet lost its nose wheel just before taking off from Atlanta, Georgia over the weekend.
This is a recording of the communications between the tower and the planes on Saturday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Delta 982. This is the aircraft looking at you. One of your nose tires just came off, it just rolled off the runway behind you.
UNKNOWN: Hey, thanks for that. Delta 982. Tower. Sounds like we've got a problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Good Lord. Well, the plane was towed off the taxiway and thankfully, no injuries were reported.
Coming up for us, some news over possible truce negotiations in the Israel- Hamas war. My conversation with an expert on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when we return. And later, CNN asks Republican voters in South
Carolina what they think of Donald Trump ahead of the state's critical primary.
GOLODRYGA: Welcome back to "One World", I'm Bianna Golodryga. Well this week, we've seen a flurry of diplomatic efforts to try to forge some kind
of deal between Israel and Hamas. But today an Israeli official is appearing to tamp down growing hopes. That official saying recent reports
that an agreement is close are incorrect and that there's still a long way to go.
On Monday, Axios first reported that Israel offered a two-month ceasefire to Hamas in exchange for the remaining Israeli hostages. But an Israeli
official later told CNN, that idea is, quote, "an initiative and far from being a proposal at this point".
Also this week, CNN heard that Israel proposed that Hamas senior leaders leave Gaza as part of a broader ceasefire negotiation. Hamas is unlikely to
accept those terms. Now, if a deal is eventually reached, will it also appease concerns of a broader regional conflict? Could it bring an end to
the threat of continued Houthi rebel attacks in the Red Sea?
A lot to discuss. Time now for our exchange. Joining me is Michael Milshtein. He's an expert on the Palestinian arena serving as a Senior
Analyst at the Dayan Center at Tel Aviv University and he was previously the head of the IDF's Department of Palestinian Affairs.
MICHAEL MILSHTEIN, SENIOR ANALYST, DAYAN CENTER: Good to see you.
GOLODRYGA: Michael, it is good to see you. So, as you just heard, there have been a flurry of possible reports this week of a potential deal on the
table. It appears, thus far, that either the Israelis or most likely Hamas is not willing to pursue these deals. What is your interpretation of this
and what does it say about the vulnerability Hamas may or may not find itself in at this point?
MILSHTEIN: Well, Bianna, out of so many reports, much of them are really wrong about the dynamics or the development of the negotiations. I conclude
that there is a basic joint interest of both Hamas and Israel with the deal. The main problem, and it's the most important issue, is a gap, a huge
gap that exists between the two parties, between Israel and Hamas.
Israel -- its basic interest is actually a ceasefire. Israel wants to oppose the current fighting but to preserve a capability to return into the
conflict after a month, two months, even more, in order to implement its basic original goal of eradicating Hamas capabilities in the military and
the regime aspect.
While on the other hand, Hamas' basic interest is actually to put an end to the war. They really demand the guarantees -- international guarantees to
put an end to this war and later to bring Israel to withdraw its forces from Gaza Strip.
And I assess, Bianna, that both parties can reach an interim agreement in between of beginning the process with ceasefire, then maybe to develop it
to a more -- to a longer arrangement. But we must remember, the whole process is very fragile, very unstable. And you know, right now, I do think
that the likelihood for broad long-term agreement is quite low.
GOLODRYGA: That is really disconcerting to hear. In terms of who is actually leading the Hamas negotiations, is there agreement as among the
leadership on their decisions here, whether or not to pursue certain ideas or plans, or is this based on one man, Yahya Sinwar's ultimate decision,
and that would be coming from perhaps miles below in Gaza, where he's appeared to be hiding in the tunnels?
MILSHTEIN: Well, it seems, and this is my assessment, Bianna, that there is internal consensus among Hamas. There are some disagreements about all
kinds of issues, but in a general manner, there is an agreement about the broad ideological strategic picture. And I think that Yahya Sinwar, right
now, the head of Hamas in Gaza Strip, is the one who really promotes the strategy.
But it seems that leadership in Doha, they actually -- they accept or they agree with this line. And you mentioned before, and it's very important to
emphasize it, the idea of many Israelis that Yahya Sinwar will leave Gaza and that this will be the solution for the war. But it seems that, and you
mentioned it correct, it's not likely. Yahya Sinwar is too much ideological hardliner. He really preferred to die in his bunker than leave Gaza.
And we must also remember, Yahya Sinwar war is not a Rafaht (ph) who left Beirut in 1982. He's a part, even integral part component of the
Palestinian society in Gaza. He will not leave. And this is my assessment.
And that's why I think that the whole discourse that many Israelis elaborate about it, it has no really -- really realistic chance.
GOLODRYGA: And also, we saw what happened to Hamas leadership in Lebanon where Israel took one out just a few weeks ago --
MILSHTEIN: That's right.
GOLODRYGA: - clearly showing signs that it has the capability to hunt and find Hamas leadership or leadership of any terror organizations wherever
they are around the world. I want to ask you about the broader picture and concern about escalation in the region as a whole. We've continued to see
more attacks by the Houthis, despite the U.S. along with the U.K. also firing on their facilities, concern early on in this war about what
Hezbollah will do.
And now over the weekend, we saw attacks continue on U.S. bases in Iraq and Syria. All of these proxies of Iran. The U.S. responding, as well. But
given the sort of whack-a-mole situation ,we see the Middle East turning into, does this benefit Hamas at all?
Because I remember early on there was reporting that Hamas leadership was disappointed that Hezbollah didn't join in the fight right away. So, does
all of this regional instability benefit Hamas, or does it put more pressure on them to bring it into this war?
MILSHTEIN: Well, you know, it's a very important point, and this is one of the most important issues from the eyes of Hamas leaders, Bianna, because
Hamas do consider the expand of the whole conflict to other arenas as one of their most important achievements from this conflict. After so many
decades of neglecting them, they showed the whole world that they stand in the center, in the core of the regional conflict in the Middle East.
But as you mentioned before, and it's correct, many of Hamas leaders and the Palestinian leaders, they do afraid that all kinds of conflicts, for
example, the conflict in the Red Sea in Yemen, develops their own self-fade dynamics and can actually be the main focus the original crisis and not the
war in Gaza.
So, they afraid that, for example, if a war in the Northern arena in Lebanon will start, or even in other arenas like Iraq and Syria, it can
really cause the damage to the interest of the Palestinians to show that they are the real sources of the instability in the Middle East and not
But it seems right now that the -- mainly, crisis in the Red Sea, in Yemen, this crisis right now has its own dynamics. And I do think that even
if there will be a deal or will be a kind of more contained conflict between Gaza and Israel, maybe the other conflicts, and mainly the conflict
in Yemen, will develop and even can be much, much bigger than today.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, that is really frightening to hear because the Houthis have -- saying they're doing this just to be in solidarity with the Gazans.
But to your point, if this fighting would continue, even if there is a ceasefire, it shows the huge ripple effects that this would have on the
region, geopolitically as well as economically. Michael Milshtein, always good to see you. Thank you so much for your expert analysis.
Well, still ahead, the mother of a convicted school shooter is on trial. The jury must decide if she is responsible for her son's actions. We'll
bring you that story up next.
GOLODRYGA: Jury selection is underway in the Michigan trial of Jennifer Crumbly. She and her husband are charged with involuntary manslaughter
after their teenage son, Ethan, opened fire in a Michigan high school, killing four students in November of 2021.
Last month, Ethan was sentenced to life in prison without parole, telling the court, quote, "I'm a really bad person." His father, James Crumbly, is
scheduled to go on trial in March.
Prosecutors have accused the parents of disregarding signs that their son was a threat. Jean Casarez has the report.
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): November 30th, 2021, 15-year- old Ethan Crumbly kills four fellow students and injures seven other people at Oxford High School in Michigan.
UNKNOWN: Is it your own choice to plead guilty?
ETHAN CRUMBLY, PLED GUILTY TO 24 CHARGES: Yes, Sir.
CASAREZ (voice-over): He pleads guilty to all 24 charges.
UNKNOWN: -- finish or serve life without the possibility of parole.
CASAREZ (voice-over): But his parents are not there. They are defendants in courtrooms of their own.
UNKNOWN: You know what, Your Honor, we had asked --
CASAREZ (voice-over): In a precedent setting move, James and Jennifer Crumbly charged themselves with homicide, going to trial for the deaths of
the students their son alone shot and killed. Both have pleaded not guilty to charges of involuntary manslaughter.
KAREN MCDONALD, OAKLAND COUNTY, MICHIGAN PROSECUTOR: These charges are intended to hold the individuals who contributed to this tragedy
CASAREZ (voice-over): Evidence shows Ethan was a loner. Not many friends, in his bedroom much of the time, online a lot. Ethan's mother allegedly
told acquaintances he wasn't normal.
UNKNOWN: Did she call him weird?
CASAREZ (voice-over): Ethan texted a friend saying he was having hallucinations and hearing voices, but his parents wouldn't help.
UNKNOWN: It says I actually asked my dad to take to the doctor yesterday, but he just gave me some pills and told me to quote, unquote, "Suck it up."
E. CRUMBLY: Yes, Sir.
UNKNOWN: And then seen -- my mom laughed when I told her.
E. CRUMBLY: Yes, Sir.
CASAREZ (voice-over): Text messages show he told his mother he was seeing things in the spring of 2021. I got a picture of the demon. It is throwing
bowls. Can you at least text back? But Ethan said no one else was to blame for the shooting.
E. CRUMBLY: They did not know and I did not tell them what I planned to do so they are not at fault.
CASAREZ (voice-over): However, on Black Friday 2021, James, using money his son earned waiting tables, went with Ethan to buy him a gun. That weekend,
his mother took him to a shooting range. At school Tuesday, Ethan was drawing a gun, bullets, and blood. "The thoughts won't stop. Help me. Blood
everywhere. My life is useless."
Ethan's parents were asked to come to the school where the counselor told them --
SHAWN HOPKINS, OXFORD HIGH SCHOOL COUNSELOR: I am concerned that he needs somebody to talk to for mental health support.
UNKNOWN: And did you tell either one of them when that should occur?
HOPKINS: I said as soon as possible. Today, if possible.
CASAREZ (voice-over): The Crumblies said they had to get back to work, but would take him to a professional within 48 hours. No one looked into
Ethan's backpack. Inside was that gun. He took it back to class and two hours later, opened fire.
UNKNOWN: Medical emergency. Oxford High School. Scene is not secure.
CASAREZ (voice-over): When he heard about the shooting, James Crumbly called 911.
JAMES CRUMBLY, FATHER OF ETHAN CRUMBLY: I think my son took the gun. I don't know if t's him. I don't know what's going on. I'm really freaking
out. My son's name is Ethan Crumbly.
CASAREZ (voice-over): Jennifer texted her son, Ethan, don't do it. But it was too late. Madison Baldwin, Tate Meyer, Hannah St. Juliana, and Justin
Schilling were dead.
The couple now has separate trials. Jennifer going first after she was overheard blaming her husband.
UNKNOWN: Do you swear or affirm?
CASAREZ (voice-over): A couple once united, now pitted against each other in court.
GOLODRYGA: Our thanks for Jean Casarez for that report. And we'll be right back.
GOLODRYGA: Well, now that the New Hampshire primary is over, all attention is on South Carolina. What do voters in the Palmetto State really think of
last night's result? Here's CNN's Gary Tuchman with more.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We watched CNN's New Hampshire primary coverage with loyal Republicans from South Carolina --
what could be a crucial primary state. Most of the people we watched with are planning to vote for Donald Trump. Nine of these 13 say they will vote
for the former President.
TUCHMAN: Donald Trump made it clear in his speech, he thinks this is over. Nikki Haley says she is continuing. Who thinks it's over? You do, tell me
RENATA DASILVA, SOUTH CAROLINA TRUMP SUPPORTER: Because the results that we got tonight, that was the answer for her. It's over.
TUCHMAN: What do you think?
MACKENZIE DAVIS, SOUTH CAROLINA TRUMP SUPPORTER: I agree. I do think that it's over. We'll see when South Carolina, but I think that it's over.
TUCHMAN: Do you think Nikki Haley should stay in the race?
LARRY KOBROVSKY, REPUBLICAN CHARLESTON COUNTY COUNCIL MEMBER: I think it would be a very tough road for her. I think you look at our state, our
governor, both our senators, five of our six congressmen, all came out for Trump.
TUCHMAN: Two people on our panel are planning to vote for Nikki Haley.
SAMUEL RIVERS, SOUTH CAROLINA HALEY SUPPORTER: She said she's going to stay in the race and we'll see what she does. I think at the proper time she'll
make that decision, but right now she's not at that position -- at that decision yet.
DICKIE SCHWEERS, SOUTH CAROLINA HALEY SUPPORTER: I think she should stay in the race. I think she has come from behind in other races and I think she
has four weeks, I believe it is, to make some changes in her campaign and I think she needs to really drive her message home to the South Carolina
TUCHMAN: Notably, 12 of the 13 people in our group tell us they thought Nikki Haley was a good governor.
UNKNOWN: Well, I think it's undeniable that Nikki Haley had a good track record as governor, but President Trump had a good track record as
MAMIE RAND, SOUTH CAROLINA TRUMP SUPPORTER: I don't know if it's so much that she wouldn't do a good job at that. I think she's the wrong person for
the job at this time.
TUCHMAN: Why is that?
RAND: I just think Donald Trump has made a presence in our world. He has made hard decisions with other leaders all across the world.
TUCHMAN: It's a survey we've done in Iowa, a survey we did in New Hampshire. Is Donald Trump fit for the presidency if he's convicted of one
of these felonies against him?
Raise your hand if you think he is fit for the presidency, even if he's a convicted felon. High, raise it high so we can see you. Raise your hand if
you don't think he's fit for the presidency. All right.
UNKNOWN: I'll qualify that. I think it would need to go through all the appeals right right on up the ladder, and if he's still guilty, then I
don't think I would find him.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): The South Carolina Republican Primary is on February 24th. Gary Tuchman, CNN, Mount Pleasant, South Carolina.
GOLODRYGA: Really interesting group there. Well, this is interesting and exciting. John Stewart will be back behind the desk on Comedy Central's
"The Daily Show" every Monday night, starting next month. Since Trevor Noah stepped down in 2022, a series of guest hosts have helmed the show.
Chris McCarthy, the head of Comedy Central's parent company, welcomed Stewart's return after nine years, calling him the voice of our generation
and saying Stewart would help us all make sense of America as it enters election season. His first show will be on February 12th. We'll be
Well, that does it for this hour of "One World". I'm Bianna Golodryga. Thanks so much for watching this hour. Amanpour is next. I'll see you right
back here tomorrow.