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One World with Zain Asher

NYPD Currently Not Planning To Enter Columbia's Campus; Donald Trump Found In Contempt For Violating Gag Order; Students And Faculty At Iran's Tehran University Rally In Support Of The Pro-Palestinian Protest Movement Across The US. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired April 30, 2024 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[12:00:45]

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello everyone, live from outside the Manhattan Criminal Court, I'm Bianna Golodryga. Coming up this hour,

I'll have the latest on the state of New York versus Donald Trump. A while ago, the judge threatened to throw the former president in jail.

ZAIN ASHER, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: And live here in the studio in New York, as well. I'm Zain Asher. I'm going to be bringing you the details on

the student protests that have swept across the globe. "One World" starts right now. All right, welcome everyone. I want to begin with the university

protests across the United States. Right now, the White House earlier today said that President Biden respects the right to free speech, the right to

free expression, but the demonstrations need to be peaceful.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PROTESTERS: Viva, viva Palestina! Free, free Palestine! Free, free Palestine!

ASHER: Those comments from the White House come after protesters at Columbia University in New York stormed an economic, excuse me, academic

building and barricaded themselves inside last night. They broke windows. They blocked doors. They chanted, as you can hear there, free Palestine.

Meantime, a law enforcement official tells CNN New York police, NYPD currently have no plans to enter Columbia's campus. Earlier, the students

in the building unfurled a banner renaming the building Heinz Hall. In honor of a young Palestinian girl killed in Gaza, they're demanding that

the school basically pull its money, divest from companies with ties to Israel.

SUEDA POLAT, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY APARTHEID DIVEST: We demand divestment. We will not be moved unless by force.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHER: All right, we've got two correspondents right now for you at the scene. Polo Sandoval and Julia Vargas-Jones join us live now from

Columbia's campus. Julia, let me start with you because you are actually on campus.

I understand that you're a student there, as well as obviously working for CNN. So, the university campus at this point in time is pretty much closed

to anyone, everyone rather, unless you reside on campus and unless you are a worker providing essential services. Just walk us through what you're

seeing behind you right now.

JULIA VARGAS-JONES, CNN REPORTER: Yeah, we are, Zain, right outside Hamilton Hall. This is where all the action happened last night. The videos

that you were showing, it's happening right now. What's happening right now is that they're trying to get food in for the folks that have been in there

for almost 12 hours now. And they still blocked off access to try to protect folks from any potential interaction with police.

As we saw about two weeks ago, Columbia did invite New York Police Department on campus to help get people out. It is private property. So,

the argument here is that they'd be trespassing, right? So, they have a right to do that.

The situation on campus is pretty calm. Otherwise, they've cut off basically access to everyone. I am a student here, so I have a student I.D.

I can beep in and come in. But at this point, if I were to come out, I wouldn't be able to come back inside because I'm not a resident of campus

and I'm not providing essential service. Media cannot get in, either. So, it seems like Columbia is trying to limit the amount of people that can be

on campus at this time to try and see if the situation will resolve, Zain.

ASHER: All right, Julia, thank you. Paula, let me bring you in, because we've talked a lot, of course, about the right to free speech, the right to

free expression. But you have to think about the disruption that's taking place here right now, the disruption to students and also the potential

disruption to that May 15th commencement. It's about two weeks from now when Columbia's graduation ceremony is set to take place. Just explain to

us what's happening on that front.

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, really, just to kind of punctuate that point that we just heard from Julia about the limited access, we just

witnessed as a couple of the main negotiators who were representing the students that formed part of that encampment for two weeks. They approached

the gate that you see behind me, which is at this point the only access that's supposed to be used. And they were turned away. And they are really

just the latest.

We have seen an on-going stream of members of the Columbia community walk up to this blue tarp that you see behind me, just next to the Hamilton

Hall, which you see there, and many, if not the vast majority, have been turned away.

[12:05:00]

Most of the people we've seen are either students or members of the faculty. And at this point, based on what took place, because of what took

place during the overnight hours, the university has really scaled down the access. So, at this point, only those students who live on campus or those

deemed essential to campus operations will swipe their I.D. and they will get the go-ahead to actually make their way on campus.

There are still several important questions, and one of them is certainly who was behind that occupation? Who continues to be behind the occupation

of Hamilton Hall? It's a building on the campus that certainly has a history of student movements, some of which have actually proved to be

successful going back to the 60s and 80s.

But at the same time, what we witnessed take place overnight, it is a drastic shift in what we witnessed at the actual encampment for nearly two

weeks, when a majority of that demonstration was concentrated and isolated on that patch of grass.

And at one point overnight, not long after, of course, that deadline was issued by the university, that's when things certainly began to turn up a

bit in terms of the pressure. And now, the big question is how will the NYPD or will the NYPD respond to some of those scenes from last night?

Julia, let me bring you back in, because obviously the president of Columbia at this point in time, Dr. Shafik, is under so much pressure.

She's under so much pressure right now, and a lot of people are pointing to the fact that her initial response, that heavy-handed response that we saw

two weeks ago after she testified before Congress was likely a mistake. Just explain to us whether at this point in time she can really hold on to

her job. There is so much pressure on her right now to go, to step down.

VARGAS-JONES: Yes, Zain, I mean, that was an inflection point here at Columbia on campus. I think when we saw that heavy NYPD presence on campus,

people got angrier. People were already angry, they got angrier. That is not how you expect to be treated in an institution if you're paying

thousands and thousands of dollars a year to attend here.

So, I think there was definitely -- it became a very difficult situation for her. There are conversations about if she can continue to be in the

leadership of Columbia University. And now, as Paula mentioned, we're coming up to graduation.

I am supposed to graduate in a couple of weeks and the big question is, will it move forward? Will Columbia be able to have its commencement, you

know, the circumstance that they're expecting to, which is what prompted the heavy-handed action from the university to begin with?

ASHER: Yeah, I mean, it's really difficult. As you point out, you're set to graduate in about two weeks from now. I went to Columbia, as well, for grad

school. I went to the journalism school there. So, I know that campus well. Unbelievable, the scenes that we're seeing out of there. Julia, Polo, thank

you both so much.

And I want to turn now back to my colleague, Bianna Golodryga with the latest goings-on in Donald Trump's hush money trial, including the fact

that Donald Trump has been found in contempt for violating that gag order. Bianna, walk us through it.

GOLODRYGA: That's right, Zain. We'll talk more about the ruling finally from the judge on that gag order. The big headline this morning, Donald

Trump's hush money trial has resumed after a short break just a few minutes ago. And it just finished hearing testimony from an executive from a

deposition company.

Now, at the beginning of the day, as noted, the judge threatened to throw the former president in jail if he keeps on violating that gag order. Judge

Juan Merchan announced that Trump had violated the order nine separate times in recent weeks for posts that he made on social media and on his

campaign website. He fined Trump $9000 for those violations and threatened to jail him if it continues.

Once again, we want to tell you on the left side of your screen is where you can keep updated on any sort of developments throughout the trial.

Obviously, we'll be paying close attention to that as well. CNN has reporters inside the courtroom keeping us up to the minute on what is going

on. Everything they see and hear will be appearing on that side panel.

Let's begin now with CNN Justice Correspondent Jessica Schneider who is tracking the developments in this case. So, Jessica, it had been a number

of days now where we'd been waiting to hear on the ruling from Judge Merchan on Trump's violation of those gag orders. He's been fined what the

state allows him, and that is $9000 -- $1000 per violation that he found he has committed, and there's enough credible evidence to find that. He also

had ordered the former president to go down and take down some specific social media posts, I believe seven offending posts that he'd noted, as

well.

[12:10:00]

Walk us through what else we heard from the judge this morning.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: And, Bianna, those posts need to be taken down by 2:15 this afternoon, so just about two hours from now

is when those need to be taken down. So, it was a stern warning from the judge this morning, the fine, and then also warning Trump that, look, this

gag order is serious, according to the judge, and if it continues to be violated, it could potentially result in jail time.

The prosecution now just called Keith Davidson to the stand. He is Stormy Daniels' attorney, so he'll likely get into the details of that hush money

payment. What we saw just before that were a few witnesses. They weren't really offering any new testimony. They were being used to get in some

crucial pieces of evidence.

Just before Davidson was Philip Thompson. He is with a deposition company that was in charge of taking Donald Trump's deposition during the E. Jean

Carroll case, so he was explaining how depositions are taken, you know, the sworn testimony of people involved in court actions, and prosecutors,

through him, were able to submit certain parts of testimony from Trump into the record.

And then right before the deposition testimony was Dr. Robert Browning of C-SPAN. He was used so prosecutors could admit video evidence of Donald

Trump at several rallies in October 2016, talking about those Access Hollywood tapes, and in particular speaking out against some of the women's

accusations that had emerged, calling them total fabrications.

So, right before we got to Keith Davidson, Bianna, prosecutors used those two witnesses in particular to get in those crucial pieces of evidence, and

they'll likely use the deposition evidence and the video evidence to further show the baseline at this case, which they say is the scramble of

the Trump campaign in those final days leading up to November election, right after the Access Hollywood tape came out, right after they were

making, or Michael Cohen was making the payment to Stormy Daniels.

So, those were just some procedural witnesses, and now we're getting into the meat of it with Keith Davidson. Again, Stormy Daniels' attorney, he'll

be able to talk about his exact interactions with Michael Cohen and that big payoff to Stormy Daniels of $130,000, a payoff which is the basis of

this case for the falsification of business records.

So, this probably, you know, our last few witnesses went by pretty quickly, but this is testimony that I would guess might take the rest of today,

potentially even into tomorrow, since Keith Davidson was such a key player getting that money to him from Michael Cohen, Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, and Keith Davidson now confirming that his work frequently involved non-disclosure agreements in cases like the one involving Stormy

Daniels. CNN Justice Correspondent Jessica Schneider, thank you. For more legal analysis, now let's now bring in former New York prosecutor Bernarda

Villalona. She is also a criminal defense attorney.

So, Bernarda, we finally got the ruling from Judge Merchan. He was a bit limited in terms of the amount of money he was able to find the president,

but given his language, given his ultimate threat, if it comes down to it, I will not stop from keeping you in going to jail and seeing some jail

time, as well. If these violations continue, what do you make of his ultimate decision and his words this morning?

BERNARDA VILLALONA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So, Judge Merchan definitely issued a decision that I expected. He definitely gave Donald Trump a huge

tongue lashing in the sense that he did warn Donald Trump that if this type of behavior continues, that he definitely won't have any hesitation in

imposing a jail sentence in this case.

It's a hard warning. I'm hoping that Donald Trump will be able to abide by this order now and that this order and this sanction is a deterrence for

Donald Trump. But now he is aware that he could face jail time if he continues with this type of behavior.

GOLODRYGA: Well, now that he's put that option out there that he could be incarcerated if he doesn't stop this behavior, if he doesn't stop breaking

these gag orders, do you think that that is enough of an incentive, for lack of a better word, for the former president to actually go down, do

what the judge ordered him to take down those seven posts that violated the gag order?

Again, he has a lot of leeway. There are just certain parameters where he can't go and that is attacking the jurors, attacking the witnesses. Do you

think from what we've covered of Donald Trump to this point that that will finally change his behavior?

VILLALONA: I don't think so. I don't think so. I think Donald Trump, quite honestly, wants Judge Merchan to give him a jail sentence to find him in

contempt and render a decision where he's doing some time inside of a jail because it takes away from the entire trial.

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The whole focus in the media and for his campaigning and for politics would be a judge that he thinks is unjustly rendering a decision over him is now

putting him in jail. So, he thinks that this will benefit him in terms of politics and in terms of his campaign.

He wants to switch the focus from the trial itself and the charges and the evidence in the trial to one of look what the system is doing to me and

this is why you should vote for me as president because what's happening here is unjust.

GOLODRYGA: Apologies for the loud distractions behind us. I do want to ask you about a bit of a change in scenery that we've seen inside the

courtroom. Typically we've seen the former president and his legal team and that is all and he's complained obviously about not being able to spend

time with his family though his family did have access and the right to come join him anytime they wanted in this trial. And for the first time we

have seen family members -- Eric Trump has joined him, as well as Susie Wiles. She's a top campaign advisor. What do you make of that change?

VILLALONA: Well, in terms of having family support I think it must be something that either the jury consultant or actually the attorneys had

told Donald Trump that it's best that he does have some family support in the courtroom because the jury wants to see family support. They want to

see a positive support system especially when we're talking that these charges stem from an allegation of infidelity. So, it looks good. It's good

for optics for the jury.

GOLODRYGA: Right. Infidelity and trying to protect his family is the argument of the former president was making and his defense is making in

terms of any hush money or not wanting this to come to the surface. Obviously, the prosecution is saying this is a campaign finance violation

and this was all because of the election.

Let me ask you about the witnesses we've seen thus far. Last week was really consumed by David Pecker. Now, we've seen the attorney Keith

Davidson speaking today. All of this and then Michael Cohen's banker speaking today. And on Friday, all of this a prelude really to the expected

witness and testimony of Michael Cohen himself.

We know him to be a flawed witness. He himself has admitted to perjury, served jail time over it. Do you think that the prosecution has done a good

job up until now to build their case knowing that they're going to get all of these allegations about Michael Cohen brought back and regurgitated by

the defense once he takes the stand?

VILLALONA: Absolutely. I think the prosecution has done an excellent job in terms of the strategic advantage of the lineup of the witnesses of who they

call first and in what order. Especially Joshua Steinglass who's an experienced career prosecutor. Actually, I interned for his bureau back in

2002. He knows what he's doing. He knows how to try cases. He knows his audience. He knows his jury pool.

So, when you have a complex witness that has huge credibility issues as a prosecutor or as a trial attorney, what you want to try to do is build up

your case and lay a strong foundation before that witness takes the stand because you want to start out strong and have this strong foundation that

this jury is looking at and be like, wait, his testimony is corroborated.

So, while his testimony may be flawed, I can look past that because it's corroborated by the testimony of other witnesses as well as the document

evidence that's being put before them. So, the prosecution has been doing an excellent job so far. It's still early on but we still have a long way

to go. But as of now, they are doing a great job.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, a long way to go indeed. Former New York Prosecutor Bernardo Villalona, thank you so much for joining us. I'm going to toss it

back to Zain. And Zane will be back later on this hour to bring everyone up to speed on any latest developments coming out of the courtroom behind me

and obviously keeping an eye on that time frame. The limit that about an hour or two from now that the judge gave for Donald Trump to take down

those offending posts --

ASHER: Right.

GOLODRYGA: -- on Truth Social. Will he take down those posts? We'll be paying close attention, too.

ASHER: Yeah, and as you point out the judge threatening to throw Trump in jail if he repeatedly continues to violate that gag order. Bianna

Golodryga, thank you so much. We'll check back in with you in about 10 to 15 minutes from now.

All right, still to come Kenya suffering by the minute as torrential rain brings disastrous floods. A live report from one of the hardest hit areas

just ahead.

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[12:22:10]

ASHER: All right, over half a year's worth of rain has drenched parts of Kenya this April with more on the way and the impacts let me tell you have

been devastating. More than 170 people have died, dozens are missing and tens of thousands of Kenyans have been forced from their homes.

In Maimaihu, at least 71 people were killed when a flash flood tore through their community. People there say they are digging through piles of debris

and mud to recover bodies. In many parts of Kenya, the roads are impassable.

This truck got stuck -- stuck there in flood waters. This is in the eastern part of the country. I want to bring in CNN's Larry Madowo who joins us

live now. So, Larry, we have seen this story throughout various parts of east Africa. A lot of heavy rain falling over the past few months and that

has meant dozens of people, in fact hundreds of people have been killed across the region.

So, Kenyan authorities right now, are not just trying to find those who are missing but also trying to find shelter for the more than 100,000 people

who have been displaced. Take us through it.

LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's correct. This is one of those shelters. There are over 200 people here who were displaced from the flash

flooding that hit this area maybe 30 or so miles west of Nairobi. Across the country there are 52 of these shelters. This is just a school.

Schools have had to --their re-opening has been delayed by about a week so learners are not threatened. But across the country, nearly 200,000 people

have been so far displaced by the heavy rains. How did these people get here at this school? Because early Monday morning, the unthinkable

happened.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MADOWO (voice-over): After weeks of heavy rains and flash floods, devastation is everywhere in this part of Kenya. Homes swept away, vehicles

overturned, trees uprooted. Here in the town of Maimahiu near the capital Nairobi, birds still sing eerily in the few trees that remain. But on the

ground, death and destruction are everywhere.

Dozens were killed after flood waters blew through a tunnel under a railway bridge according to locals and first responders in Maimahiu. Rescuers are

clearing debris as they try to recover bodies and reach survivors.

MADOWO: They are trying to clear the heap back there because they believe somebody could still be buried under there. These are remnants of a house.

It's a tree that was uprooted and all of that because across the road from here, after they heard a phone vibrating, they were able to pull out a body

of a man after hours of digging. Thousands have been told to seek higher ground or have been evacuated to government run facilities like Githukuri

Makau who lost everything he owned.

GITHUKURI MAKAU, FLOOD SURVIVOR (through translator): I had a full house of clothes but I have nothing now, not even a mattress.

[12:25:00]

It's totally plain. You can't tell there was a house there. I'm now left destitute. There's nowhere to go.

MADOWO (voice-over): While flooding is not uncommon during the country's wet season, experts say the El Nino weather phenomenon and climate change

exacerbated this year's rainfall.

WILLIAM RUTO, PRESIDENT OF KENYA: It is a realization that while we had a drought a year ago today we have floods. A year ago Malawi, Zimbabwe and

Mozambique were having floods. Today, they are having drought. That is the reality. That is the new normal.

MADOWO (voice-over): The U.N. resident representative in Kenya has said the country is "facing a climate emergency that it did not cause -- drought and

floods." Relentless rain has also impacted Burundi and Tanzania where at least 155 people have been killed by flooding. Meanwhile, rainfall is

expected to continue in several parts of Kenya for the next six days. The floods in many areas showing no signs of letting up.

MADOWO: And that is the fear here that there is still more rainfall to come. Already, almost 200 thousand people displaced. If this keeps going

on, the death toll could be significantly higher here in Kenya and across the region.

And President William Ruto has been here to this displacement center to condole with the people. He has ordered the military to get involved in

trying to find the bodies of those still missing. Dozens still remain missing here in Maimahiu alone. Some of them may never be found. If you

look at the scale of the destruction I saw, Zain, it spreads for several kilometers in every direction.

ASHER: And it's so important, Larry, what President Ruto brought up in your piece. This idea of, you know, one minute it's drought that Kenya is

dealing with. The next minute, it is a major flooding. That is the reality of climate change. Larry Madowo, live for us there, thank you so much.

All right, still to come, what exactly is the White House saying or not saying about the protests that are sweeping across campuses across the

U.S.? We'll have a live report for you just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:30:38]

ASHER: All right, welcome back to "One World". Coming to you live from the studio in New York. I'm Zain Asher.

GOLODRYGA: I'm Bianna Golodryga right outside the Manhattan criminal court. And I'm standing just a few blocks away from New York University. It is one

of many schools across the U.S. where protests by students, faculty and others have erupted. They are protesting Israel's war in Gaza and want

their schools to stop supporting companies with ties to Israel. A bit further away from here up north is Columbia University.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: That is where students occupied an academic building, breaking glass and barricading doors. New York Police tell CNN they do not plan on

entering the campus unless the university asks them to. Remember, Columbia University is a private institution. The whole situation has some students

fearful.

JESSICA SCHWALB, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY STUDENT: I've heard a lot of violent rhetoric such as resistance by any means or glory to our martyrs or brick

by brick, wall by wall, Israel will fall. So, these are seemingly genocidal chants. So, that instills a lot of fear in myself and along with my Jewish

friends, many of whom have decided not even to come to campus and are using the virtual option of classes and finals.

And just a few hours ago, I witnessed the walls or the windows of Hamilton Hall where I actually had a class just on Monday bashed in and the doors

barricaded.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHER: The White House, meantime, says that people occupying campus buildings are taking the wrong approach in terms of how they're protesting

the war on Gaza. National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby says a small percentage of students shouldn't be able to disrupt study for the

rest. President Joe Biden though has yet to make any public statement on this particular matter. Let's bring in Senior White House Reporter Kevin

Liptak.

We're bringing him in from our bureau in Washington. So Kevin, when can we actually expect the president to address this directly? Why has it taken

him so long?

KEVIN LIPTAK, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yeah, it remains to be seen. He doesn't have anything scheduled and I think that speaks to the fact that

President Biden really is caught in a cross current here. On the one side, of course, he wants to reiterate the right of students to protest, to

peacefully protest and, of course, he will rely on students and on young Americans if he is to win re-election in November.

But on the other side, he is sort of at the mercy of this law and order trend in the Democratic Party, really hoping to demonstrate that he is on

the side of police certainly and that he doesn't support protests that would veer into anti-Semitism.

And so he is caught in the middle here. You already see Republicans trying to frame this as President Biden sort of presiding over chaos while

standing silently by. President Biden is expected to travel later today. We could hear from him then, but certainly, the White House today very

forceful in condemning this takeover of buildings on campus.

So, you really do see them trying to strike a balance here, hoping to sort of get through this, potentially reach a hostage deal that would at least

bring the fighting to a temporary end in Gaza and hopefully see this all blow over, but certainly President Biden watching it and very concerned

about what he is seeing on some of these campuses.

ASHER: All right, Kevin Liptak, live for us there. Thank you.so much. Time now for the exchange. We want to dig deeper into these protests taking

place across campuses, across the United States. Julie Rubin joins us live now from Cambridge, Massachusetts. She is a professor of American education

at Harvard University. She actually specializes in student activism.

So, she really is the perfect person to talk to about all of this. Julie, thank you for being with us. Just to focus right now on Columbia University

in terms of what's happening there. I think, a lot of people look at this and say Dr. Shafik's heavy-handed approach two weeks ago was probably an

own goal for Columbia University. What we are seeing across the country is that the actions by police and the actions by university administrators

have really only hardened the resolve of the students. That is what we have seen.

So, based on that knowledge, based on the fact that police and taking a heavy-handed approach is only making protesters dig in their heels, what is

the right way for university faculty, university leadership, to go about resolving this?

[12:35:00]

JULIE REUBEN, PROFESSOR: Thank you very much for having me. And yes, what you described where university leadership respond harshly to protests seems

to increase the resolve and build the protests is a pattern we have seen historically.

Definitely in the 1960s, that was a period similar to this period where there was hotly debated, hotly divided issue, in that case, the Vietnam

War, and when students engaged in peaceful protests that was met with harsh response by university administrators calling.

You know, disciplining students, calling in the police, having protests removed, that tended to increase the sympathy for protesters, build the

size of protests, and also increase the voice of more extreme activists who could then argue that our peaceful efforts haven't really worked at all,

that we've seen repression, and therefore we should up the tactics.

So, this is a pattern we saw in the 1960s, and there was a lot of resistance on the part of university administrators to really accepting

this pattern. There were a lot of outside voices and internal voices that said, no, permissiveness is the problem, that we really need to show

students that we're serious, and therefore we have to respond in these more quick -- quickly punitive measures.

And -- so, those voices were very strong in the 1960s. It really took almost the full decade for university administrators to realize that, no,

it was probably better to let the protests continue, to calm down, to try to respond to students by acknowledging that they had legitimate concerns,

that they were acting out of moral and political concern, and to recognize that the protesters had an issue, and then things typically would tend to

die down.

So, for a long time we saw this was a sort of typical response in the 1980s to the protests against apartheid, and in the 90s, you know, sweatshop

protests, tended to see that universities responded, not necessarily that they liked these protests, or that they often tried to avoid them or limit

them, you know, restrict them if they could, but they didn't tend to bring in the police because I think that they remembered the lessons from the

1960s where police tended to increase sympathy.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah. Professor, it's been interesting to see this sort of piecemeal response, not only between public and private institutions, but

also in more conservative and, let's say, more liberal states, red and blue states, how they've responded to these issues on campus.

Some university heads saying, listen, we've warned them, this isn't a playground or a daycare that rules are meant to be abided in their

consequences. There are others that are having these open debates and conversations and negotiations with the activists.

Where do you draw the balance between supporting freedom of speech, freedom to protest, freedom to speak your mind, but also concern about any threats

or violations that other students may feel on campus and just the ability that some students may not be able to even go to class on campus at this

point given the level that this has turned to?

REUBEN: Yeah, it's really difficult when things escalate like this. I think that there have been disruptions to campuses, you know, students feel those

disruptions at the university that I'm at. You know, a major arts event, you know, was limited in what they could do because of, you know, the

campus being shut down by protests. So, when things escalate, it definitely has more negative impact on a range of people.

[12:40:00]

So, we get caught in this catch 22 after things have started to escalate because after they've escalated, there's a more legitimacy to the concerns

about safety and other things like that. And -- but we've already started the process of escalation. And so, it's really at that earlier stage

before, while things are peaceful, that I think university administrators have more leeway.

And I think we've seen across various different cases where, you know, university leaders at the point of peacefulness have not called in the

police, and I think things have not escalated as much on those campuses as they have on campuses where university administrators have responded more

harshly.

GOLODRYGA: It's such a fast-developing story, and as we noted from Kevin Liptak's reporting, that the administration finds itself in a really

difficult position finding a balance in terms of what kind of statements what the president will be saying because this is so fast-paced, moving so

quickly.

And as you note from history, we've learned so much, and I would probably suggest that social media only amplifies a lot of this, as well. So

technology and what we're seeing on our screens has evolved over the past few decades, which is only sort of inflaming people from both sides here as

we're trying to quell some of this and also respect rights and First Amendment rights of these students.

Julie Reuben, thank you so much. We appreciate your time. And I'll be back with more from outside the Manhattan courthouse after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GOLODRYGA: We're about 90 minutes from the judges' deadline for Trump to remove social media posts that have violated his initial gag order. He

fined Trump $9000 -- $1000 for each of the nine posts that breached that order. The judge also warned Trump that future violations could result in

jail time.

Right now, Stormy Daniel's former attorney is on the stand, and he is discussing the non-disclosure agreement that Stormy Daniel signed to keep

her from talking in public about her alleged affair with Donald Trump.

[12:45:00]

For legal analysis of all of this, let's bring in Criminal Defense Attorney Joseph Tully. Joseph, thank you so much for joining us. And as we noted,

we've been waiting several days for this judge, Judge Merchan, to finally rule on the violation of that gag order. And we got his decision today, a

$9000 fine.

Basically, he's been limited to what the state allows in terms of each violation. What do you make of his demand that the former president take

down those offensive social media posts, the seven that he specifically noted with the deadline in just an hour or so? If he doesn't do that, what

do you imagine the Trump does then?

JOSEPH TULLY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, thank you for having me. So, I think the judge's decision was very mainstream for judges. I don't think

it was overly harsh. I don't think it was overly lenient. Giving the deadline does put the Trump team in a quandary.

It really is a matter of calling up an IT person or I don't know, Truth Social, how it works as an app, if you could delete those messages or not.

But it really puts the squeeze on the Trump team to get rid of those messages because the judge has ruled that they are offending, that they

violated his gag order, so they need to be removed.

GOLODRYGA: In terms of the witnesses that we've heard from, the fourth and fifth witness today came in quite quick succession today. I don't believe

the defense even cross-examined one of them. And this, of course, comes after the first week where we had about four days dedicated to David

Pecker, both from the prosecution's questioning and obviously the defense's cross.

Are you surprised that the subsequent guests, many of them are names not known to us and the media and obviously to the public, as well. Are you

surprised with the rapid pace at which they have now subsequently called the additional guests as we're waiting for Michael Cohen?

TULLY: I'm not surprised, but it is interesting. And from what I'm reading, I think what is happening is sometimes there are witnesses that just check

a few boxes that the prosecution needs. And if you have, if it's undisputed, both sides can stipulate or get the evidence in another way,

and it could be quick and easy.

But when you have the prosecution and defense fighting and butting heads, then the defense attorney can say, you know, I'm not stipulating to that.

Prove it. You need to check those boxes, bring in the witness.

And so, even though it might seem like a perfunctory and a waste of time, you know, the prosecution does have the burden, so they do have to produce

that. But I think that's what's happening as we see some acrimony between the prosecution and the defense, and the defense is not willing to

stipulate to quick, easy evidence coming in.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, the prosecution, as you noted, their motivation now is to enter this evidence. So, we will be watching this closely to see how much

longer Keith Davidson will be examined by and interviewed by Joshua Steinglass. Criminal Defense Attorney Joseph Tully, thank you so much.

Zain, I'll toss it back to you in the studio.

ASHER: Thank you, Bianna. All right, still to come, protesters in Iran are coming out in support of student demonstrations in the U.S., what some

Iranian students are telling CNN next.

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[12:51:11]

ASHER: All right, for a brief moment today, our two top stories of the day actually came together. I'm talking about the pro-Palestinian protests

sweeping across American college campuses and the trial of Donald Trump.

As Trump walked into the courthouse this morning, he spoke out about the protests, inviting comparisons between the treatment of the students and

the treatment of the people convicted of storming the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This whole country is up in arms, breaking into colleges, knocking the hell out of Columbia

University. I mean, they took over. I know the building very well. They took over a building. That is a big deal.

And I wonder if what's going to happen to them will be anything comparable to what happened to J-6 because they're doing a lot of destruction, a lot

of damages, a lot of people getting hurt very badly. I wonder if that's going to be the same kind of treatment they gave J-6.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHER: Trump speaking earlier there. And students and faculty at Iran's Tehran University are rallying in support of the pro-Palestinian protest

movement across the U.S. This comes as Iranian officials ramp up their public messaging against the U.S. as the war in Gaza rages on. CNN's Fred

Pleitgen reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRED PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Pro-Palestinian protesters at U.S. colleges getting vocal support from Iran. Conservative students and

faculty at Tehran University staging a demo this weekend, chanting death to America and death to Israel, saying they stand with those occupying U.S.

universities. "We not only support them, we are one united voice," this woman says. "We are like organs of the same body."

UNKNOWN: American students also came out. It's great. We didn't think that they would come out, but the fact that they came out shows that, you know,

we are fighting for the same thing.

PLEITGEN (voice-over): "This movement by American students shows that freedom seeking and support of the oppressed has expanded all over the

world," this man says. The Biden administration ripped into Iran over its crackdown of protests that swept the country in the fall of 2022, after the

death in police custody of Massa Amini, who was accused of breaking the country's strict hijab rules.

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The international community has come together to condemn and confront Iran's brutal crackdown, and we'll

continue to act in support of the right of the Iranian people to speak out for their fundamental freedoms.

PLEITGEN (voice-over): But now, Iran says the U.S.' support of Israel's operation in Gaza, killing tens of thousands of Palestinians, and police

action against some of those occupying campuses is tarnishing America's own reputation.

PLEITGEN: Iran's leadership has been extremely vocal about the pro- Palestinian protests going on, on some U.S. campuses. They say the arrests that have been seen undermine America's role as a leading supporter, both

of civil rights and of free speech.

PLEITGEN (voice-over): For decades, Iran has been the U.S. and Israel's strongest adversary in the Middle East, Iran and Israel recently trading

direct military blows for the first time. I went to a press conference of the Iranian foreign ministry, the spokesman saying Tehran believes globally

that political opinion is now shifting their way.

"Public opinion of the world and free thinkers of the world will not tolerate this genocide and their loud voice won't be silenced," he said.

And through police actions and violent crackdown policies, they cannot silence the voice of those that protest against this crime and genocide.

Tehran ripping into the U.S. as the protesters on American campuses demand schools divest from Israel and want the Biden administration to pressure

Israel to stop its attacks.

[12:55:00]

Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Tehran.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ASHER: Unbelievable images there. All right, that does it for this hour of "One World". I'm Zain Asher. Appreciate you watching. Amanpour is up next.

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