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One World with Zain Asher
Jury Deliberations Underway In The Trump Hush Money Trial; Secretary Of State Antony Blinken Takes Part In The NATO Foreign Ministers' Meeting In Prague; Officials In Northern Gaza Urge People Not To Return To Their Homes In And Around Jabalia Refugee Camp; Brutal Weather Hits Texas For Past Few Weeks; U.S. Brokers Talks With The Haitian Government And Gang Leaders. Aired 12-1p ET
Aired May 30, 2024 - 12:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Well, it could happen at any moment. Jury deliberations are underway in the Trump hush money trial and the whole
world is watching.
ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: ONE WORLD starts right now. Twelve New Yorkers are meeting behind closed doors, deciding the fate of the former President.
Every single detail we're hearing from our reporters inside the courtroom.
GOLODRYGA: Also ahead, the bodies of an American couple killed in gang violence in Haiti are now being flown home to the U.S. We'll have exclusive
details of the negotiations that secured the return of their bodies.
ASHER: And later, it is the video you have to see to believe -- how a defendant sent himself to jail during his own hearing.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Hello, everyone. Live from New York, I'm Bianna Golodryga.
ASHER: And I'm at Zain Asher. You are indeed watching ONE WORLD. All right. Crystal balls, tea leaves, tarot cards. They've got nothing. And I
mean nothing in terms of trying to predict what exactly a jury is thinking.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah. Just minutes ago, the jury deciding Donald Trump's fate resumed their deliberations after spending more than an hour getting
additional questions answered by the judge. The jury asked the judge to reread about 30 pages of the instructions he had given them yesterday.
And they also wanted to listen again to the transcript of testimony about a 2015 meeting where National Enquirer publisher David Pecker spoke with
Michael Cohen and Donald Trump about his magazine's efforts to help Trump's campaign.
ASHER: Now, the big question now is why did the jury want to hear that testimony? And does it give us any hints, any clues as to which way they're
leaning in their deliberations? All right. On the left side of your screen -- I'm not going to do it. I literally embarrassed myself trying to --
GOLODRYGA: You're overthinking it. Yeah. On the left.
ASHER: Yes. Okay. CNN has reporters from inside the courtroom keeping us up to date on what's going on. And on the left side of your screen, as I
just pointed out, I can't remember which way I'm doing this. But you will see updates about the trial.
GOLODRYGA: We'll get through it together, Zain. You and me.
ASHER: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Well, for some additional analysis of today's action, let's bring in CNN Senior Crime and Justice Reporter Katelyn Polantz. Katelyn,
this is the second time we've had this introduction with you trying to figure out what the panel is.
ASHER: You must think we're nuts. These girls are nuts.
GOLODRYGA: Who are these two weirdos? Talk to us about what we have seen from this jury, thus far, coming back in, asking specific questions of the
judge, really being diligent as they go through deliberations here.
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Clearly, diligent because they wanted to hear back specific portions of testimony from one of
the earliest witnesses that testified for the prosecution. That was David Pecker, who was one of the publishers or the publisher, the CEO of the
company that publishes the "National Enquirer".
And what they're asking about appears to zero in on what he had discussed with both Michael Cohen and Donald Trump in person and with Trump on the
phone about Trump's campaign. How he could help with a catch-and-kill scheme, the sort of scheme that Cohen ended up paying Stormy Daniels to
keep her quiet.
Now, with the "National Enquirer", the testimony that they heard this morning, that the jurors asked for the judge to read back and then went
into the courtroom and for several minutes listened to again, was a portion where David Pecker said at an August 2015 meeting at Trump Tower.
He and these two men, Donald Trump included, had a conversation about how he would notify Michael Cohen if women were coming out of the woodwork to
share negative stories with the press about Donald Trump, potentially things like affairs that could really hurt Trump. And at that part of the
testimony, the prosecutors asked David Pecker if the purpose of this was to benefit Donald Trump in his campaign as a presidential candidate in 2016.
David Pecker responded, that is right. That's what the jury reheard this morning, in addition to a lot of other things, jury instructions, how to
determine beyond a reasonable doubt if someone is guilty or innocent. So, all of that are things that the jury now has taken back to the room just
before 11:30 is when they went back into their confidential space to discuss among themselves what they want to do with this case.
[12:05: 03]
And tea leaves, sure. I mean, if we had any sort of telepathy, maybe we could understand what a jury was thinking. But it is extremely hard to
predict and also hard to predict not just what they will do, but the timing in which they will do it. Thirty four counts here. They've got to talk
through.
GOLODRYGA: Thirty four counts. We'll see if in the next few hours we'll hear more from them with additional questions they may have for the judge.
You'll be standing by for us. Katelyn Polantz, thank you.
ASHER: And joining us live now is someone who has spent many years trying to figure out what exactly jurors are thinking. Michael Zeldin, former
federal prosecutor, joins us live now. So, Michael, yes, we know that the juries -- the jurors wanted to hear the legal instructions again, meant to
sort of guide them on the law.
But more pivotal than that, this idea of them wanting to hear David Peck is testimony again. So, just walk us through, as a former federal prosecutor,
what are your thoughts on that? What can we glean from that, if anything at all?
MICHAEL ZELDIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: So, Michael Cohen cannot convict Donald Trump alone on his own testimony. The judge instructed the
jury because he's a sort of co-conspirator -- co-conspirator testimony needs to be corroborated. So, David Pecker is the corroborating testimony.
So, I think what we're possibly seeing here is whether or not they have the sufficient corroborative evidence of Cohen's testimony to get them to a
guilty verdict. So, you know, it's very hard to know, but I would be encouraged if I will -- if you will, as a prosecutor to say, look, they're
looking for corroborative testimony that supports the Cohen narrative.
And if they believe Pecker and they believe any portion of Cohen, then they get to guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. So, I could be completely wrong.
You never know what's going on in there. But that's how I see it. They're seeking corroboration of Cohen. And Pecker is, I thought throughout this
case, almost the most important witness because he doesn't have an axe to grind.
He has no motive. And he's telling us that from the outset, this was a conspiracy to catch and kill these stories to pay the people off in order
to impact the election. That's the heart of the case. That's what he's testified to. And I think that's what they're asking to be heard again. So,
maybe good news for the prosecutor. But I have been wrong before.
GOLODRYGA: We always have to preface with that. We don't know how this jury will ultimately decide. But that is notable that you picked up on what
many others have picked up on, as well as what an effective guess this was for the prosecution. For his testimony, David Pecker there was on the stand
for a number of days.
And there was a jury expert, a consultant that was on CNN in the last hour who said what was notable to her was that they're not looking for
reasonable doubt evidence in this at least specific question that they asked. The jury asked the judge, would you agree with that, that if you're
deciphering what they looked for, that it didn't appear that they were looking for anything related to reasonable doubt evidence?
ZELDIN: Yes, it seems to me that they're looking for the inception of this conspiracy and the actions taken by the participants in it. And I think,
again, that that tells you that they're thinking along the lines of did the prosecution have sufficient evidence in addition to Michael Cohen to prove
the heart of their matter, which is that there was a business fraud and that it was done for the purpose of impacting the election and it was done
by illegal means.
It seems like they're following that narrative, which is the prosecutor's closing argument narrative. And again, so maybe that's good news for the
prosecutor because they aren't asking, as the jury consultant said, give us examples where the defense poked holes in the prosecution theory of the
case.
ASHER: And, of course, just in terms of where things might end up here, you know, obviously, the verdicts have to be unanimous. All the jurors have
to agree. The defense, of course, is hoping that they can just sort of convince one juror. But the possibility that Donald Trump is not guilty
beyond a reasonable doubt. What happens then? Just walk us through the possibilities in terms of either a hung jury or a mistrial or just having
the judge instruct them again to try harder.
ZELDIN: Right. So, assuming down the line there's an impasse and they talk about it and talk about it and they among themselves don't seem to be able
to reach consensus. They go to the judge. They say we were deadlocked. We can't reach consensus. The judge then gives them a specific jury charge.
They call it an Allen charge, which basically says to them, come on, reach a verdict.
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Nobody else can do this better than you. If we have to retry it, we'll be, you know, doing the same thing all over again. It's incumbent upon you to
do this. Go back in there and try harder. That charge usually leads to unanimity. Unless you have a juror or two that are just essentially not
following the judge's instructions and have their own agenda or not reaching consensus with the rest.
So, I would be surprised if we don't get a consensus here, if there is an Allen charge. But we just don't know. There are some jurors here that
analysts who've been in the courtroom said they have some concerns about from a prosecution standpoint. It's, again, tea leaves and we just don't
know. But I would expect unanimity.
GOLODRYGA: All right. We shall see. Former Federal Prosecutor Michael Zeldin, thank you. U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is taking part in
the NATO foreign ministers meeting in Prague, where support for Ukraine is dominating the agenda. Earlier, he met with the Czech Foreign Minister and
President. Now, the visit comes as America's top diplomat appears to be softening his language around Kyiv's striking within Russian territory.
ASHER: And some NATO countries say Ukraine should be allowed to use Western weapons strike inside Russia. The U.S. has been opposed to that
idea. But speaking in Moldova on Wednesday, Blinken hinted at a possible shift.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: And another hallmark of our support for Ukraine over these now more than two years has been to adapt as
the conditions have changed, as the battlefield has changed, as what Russia does has changed in terms of how it's pursuing its aggression, escalation.
We've adapted and adjusted, too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: CNN's Oren Lieberman joins us now. And what's notable is that we're just getting reports that the U.S. appears to be close to completing
negotiations on a bilateral security agreement with Ukraine. What more are we learning, Oren?
OREN LIBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, at this point, Secretary of State Antony Blinken's comments are incredibly interesting because of
the room they leave, there was nothing definitive there or decisive. But it was a vague statement about changes in how the U.S. has approached the war
and changes in how the U.S. may approach it in the future.
And it is in that space of ambiguity that we see the possibility that the U.S. may shift its position, allowing U.S. weapons to be used by Ukraine
over the border into Russia, which is something they have not allowed for the course of the past two and a half years.
There is both some domestic pressure. We have seen several lawmakers call on the administration to allow Ukraine to use the weapons as it needs. And
we have certainly seen international partners and key Western allies, such as France, the U.K. and Germany, say it's time to remove the restrictions
and allow Ukraine to use the weapons as it needs.
Even NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said it's time to review these restrictions. Earlier today, he said, I believe the time has come to
consider some of these restrictions to enable the Ukrainians to really defend themselves. And certainly, in light of what we're seeing in Russia's
new push near Kharkiv, it would be an important decision.
And that's because the Russian border is very close to the front line there, and that allows Russia to leave their forces in Russian territory in
close range of Ukrainian forces, believing -- the Kremlin that is -- believing their forces are safe in their territory with the short supply line that allows them to keep pressing. So, it is a significant decision,
one where you are clearly seeing international pressure on the U.S. to shift its position and allow Ukraine to use U.S. weaponry to hit Russian
forces over the border.
GOLODRYGA: Oren Liebermann, thank you.
ASHER: All right. Officials in northern Gaza are urging people not to return to their homes in and around the Jabalia refugee camp. The fear is
they'll be walking into a deadly situation. A local journalist says that some who attempted to enter the area were hit and wounded by quadcopter
drones. There was news earlier Thursday that Israeli troops were pulling out of the area.
GOLODRYGA: Pictures from Jabalia show widespread destruction, with streets covered in rubble and most buildings flattened or destroyed. The IDF says
its forces continue to operate against, quote, "terrorist infrastructure".
ASHER: All right. In the south, the IDF says it now has operational control over a key 14-kilometer buffer zone along Rafah's border with
Egypt. Israel says it found 20 tunnels used by Hamas to smuggle weapons into Gaza.
GOLODRYGA: Egypt denies the existence of the tunnels. CNN's Jeremy Diamond reports, and a warning, his report contains graphic video.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On a hilltop in western Rafah, Israeli tanks overlook Gaza's border with Egypt, the Israeli
military's latest prize. Three weeks into its Rafah offensive, Israel says it now controls the strategic Philadelphia corridor, spanning the length of
that seven-and-a-half-mile-long border, which the Israeli military says Hamas has used to smuggle weapons into Gaza.
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Egypt denies these tunnels exist.
DANIEL HAGARI, REAR ADMIRAL, REAR ADMIRAL, ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES SPOKESPERSON (through translator): The Philadelphia corridor served as
Hamas' oxygen pipeline through which Hamas regularly smuggled weapons into the Gaza Strip. So far, our forces have located about 20 tunnels in the
Philadelphia corridor area. We investigate these tunnels and neutralize them.
DIAMOND (voice-over): This is the human toll of that military offensive. United Nations says more than 940,000 people have been forced to flee the
city in recent weeks. For many, this is not the first time.
There is no safety. Al-Mawassi is hit. The U.N. warehouses are hit. The U.N. schools are hit. There is no safety, Taysir al-Raj says. You might die
at any moment, anywhere.
Multiple Israeli strikes on camps for displaced Palestinians in recent days have made that point with deadly clarity. None more so than this strike in
northwestern Rafah on Sunday night, which killed at least 45 people and injured hundreds more, according to Gaza's Ministry of Health.
The Israeli military has said it did not expect civilians to die and has launched an investigation into the strike, which killed two senior Hamas
militants. But at least three people can be seen on the road outside those structures moments before the strike. The Israeli military targeted these
two container-like structures, just steps away from structures housing displaced civilians, which were also destroyed in the blast or the
subsequent fire.
Four weapons experts tell CNN the weapons used in the strike were U.S.-made bombs. They say these remnants found at the site of the attack are pieces
of a GBU-39 small-diameter bomb, carrying a relatively small payload intended to minimize civilian casualties. But dropping them in densely
populated areas can still have devastating consequences.
JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: They're going to Rafah. I'm not supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with Rafah.
DIAMOND (voice-over): But for now, the U.S. doesn't plan to stop providing those weapons, with the White House insisting Israel hasn't crossed that
red line.
JOHN KIRBY, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL SPOKESPERSON: We don't want to see a major ground operation. We haven't seen that at this point.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Major or not, the Israeli military is now deep in Rafah, where Palestinian rescuers are struggling to safely reach the
wounded, as the dangers are mounting for so many.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And we have some political news just out of Israel into CNN. War Cabinet member and Netanyahu rival Benny Gantz has now proposed a bill
to dissolve parliament. CNN's Jeremy Diamond joins us from Jerusalem with the latest.
Of course, this coming after Benny Gantz last week threatened to leave this emergency government as soon as next week if Prime Minister Netanyahu
didn't introduce a day-after plan. What's the significance of this bill that he introduced now?
DIAMOND (on-camera): Well, it might look like this is Benny Gantz saying that he wants to dissolve the parliament right now, force new elections.
That is not what this bill is intended to do. This appears to be somewhat of a parliamentary maneuver on behalf of Benny Gantz and his National Unity
Parliament introducing this bill that could result in the dissolution of the Knesset if it were successful, could result in early elections. But
they don't intend to bring it up for a vote right now.
And the main reason for that is because Benny Gantz knows that he doesn't actually have the votes to pass it. But it appears that this bill was
introduced now so that it can be brought up for a vote during the summer session of the Knesset. And we know that Benny Gantz and his allies have
talked about trying to dissolve the government sometime around September potentially.
But it is notable -- the timing, given the fact that, as you said, a week from Saturday is Benny Gantz's deadline for the Israeli Prime Minister to
address a number of key issues as it relates to the long-term strategy of the Israeli military in Gaza, the day-after plan in Gaza. And if Netanyahu
does not answer those questions, those points, as it appears that he is not intent to do, then Benny Gantz has said that he will leave the government.
But it's important to note that that, as well, will not immediately lead to the dissolution of this government. Benny Gantz is a member of this
emergency government, a member of the War Cabinet. But he and his party leaving that government will still leave the Israeli Prime Minister with a
64-seat majority to allow him to continue to govern.
But this is all movement in the direction of trying to call for new elections. And it also, we should note, comes as Benny Gantz himself has
seen himself slipping in the polls over the course of the last month or so.
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And so, it appears that he and his party feel that there is a need to do something to shake things up, to once again reiterate those calls for early
elections. But it's not clear yet exactly how this government falls apart. The Israeli Prime Minister, of course, is relying not only on support from
his Likud party, but also from the support of several far-right parties, including folks like the Finance Minister, Bezalel Smotrich, the National
Security Minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir.
It appears that it would need to be a threat from within Netanyahu's party or within that broader governing coalition in order to actually trigger
those new elections, which there are -- there are growing calls for, of course, right now in Israel.
ASHER: Yeah, it's interesting, Jeremy, because right on the aftermath, in the aftermath of October 7th, Benny Gantz saw his popularity really soar in
Israel. Obviously, that is changing. As you mentioned, he feels the need to shake things up. Jeremy Diamond, live for us there. Thank you so much.
GOLODRYGA: All right, still to come for us, is that snow falling in May? No, it is hail pounding Texas. The details after the break.
ASHER: And later, Kiss frontman Gene Simmons still hungry for success at age 74. He speaks to CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENE SIMMONS, KISS FRONTMAN: There's no such thing as you have enough money. But Richard Quest, my invitation to you as a friend is, if you ever
have a spare dollar you don't want, please send it to me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Just incredible. Look at the hail that pummeled Marathon Texas this week. Texas has just been hit with brutal weather the past few weeks.
And once again, an example of more extreme weather is expected now today.
ASHER: I mean, that could be upstate New York, literally.
GOLODRYGA: Of course, in December. There's a threat of severe storms from Texas all the way to Minnesota.
ASHER: Yeah, they could, again, bring damaging hail, fierce wind gusts, and possibly tornadoes, as well. The winds have brought down trees like
these in north Texas.
GOLODRYGA: Unbelievable. Well, now to a CNN exclusive. Sources tell CNN that for the last week, the U.S. has brokered talks with the Haitian
government and gang leaders.
ASHER: It's all aimed at securing the return of the bodies of two murdered American missionaries. Davi and Natalie Lloyd were killed when a gang
attacked their orphanage in Port-au-Prince last week.
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GOLODRYGA: Their bodies are on a U.S. commercial flight from the capital. Port-au-Prince has been overrun by violent gangs for months now. CNN Senior
Caitlin Hu broke this story along with reporter David Culver. And Caitlin joins us now live from New York. What more are we learning, Caitlin?
CAITLIN HU, CNN DIGITAL INTERNATIONAL SENIOR EDITOR: So, this was an incredibly delicate U.S.-orchestrated operation in Port-au-Prince. As you
mentioned, the city is just overrun by gangs. There's an estimated 80 percent of it is now gang-controlled territory. So, even moving around the
city is incredibly dangerous, you know, under normal, relatively normal circumstances.
In this case, what U.S. officials were concerned about and also the families was protecting the bodies of Davie and Natalie even after their
tragic deaths. There was concern that their bodies might be desecrated or that they might even be taken by a gang, one of the attacking gangs or even
another one, and held hostage for ransom.
So, this week-long effort was designed to make sure that the bodies were in safe custody and also to make sure that they could leave Haiti without any
further attack. What we know is that the U.S. assisted in organizing an ambulance to go pick up the bodies at the scene of the crime, even removing
them before Haitian officials were able to inspect the situation.
But the reason that they did that, one source told me, is, you know, this was not a normal way to do things. Normally they wouldn't pull bodies out
of a crime scene, but the concern for protecting those two was so great after the fact that they managed to do it anyways.
And one of the ways that they did that was by bringing together gang members in Haiti -- gang leaders, on a conference call and asking them to,
you know, through intermediaries, to help free these bodies. When an ambulance went to get them, apparently some gang members who were armed
with rifles blocked them, and so another gang leader had to ask their boss to relinquish them to the ambulance and let them out.
Once they did that, you know, it was a series of other negotiations to make sure that Davie and Natalie could safely leave Haiti, you know, with
Haitian authorities and all that. And today, we finally got confirmation that they were wheels up in the company of the U.S. ambassador and security
agents from U.S. embassy this morning.
ASHER: I mean, it's extraordinary, right, the sort of behind-the-scenes negotiations that led to the repatriation of their bodies, this idea of
having gang leaders essentially negotiate with American officials. But just talk to us a bit more about Davie and Natalie Lloyd and the circumstances
that led to their death.
HU: So, what we know is that Davie and Natalie were a young couple, a young American couple. Davie had actually grown up in Haiti. His parents
were missionaries there, and they're actually the founders of the missionary and orphanage complex where they were killed. What happened last
week is that, according to David Lloyd, his father, who spoke to me last week, one gang attacked and attempted to rob the compound. Something
happened.
That gang left. Another gang showed up. That second gang took fire. One of the gang members was killed, according to Mr. Lloyd. It's unclear how that
happened. But that precipitated an incredibly violent retribution that saw both Davie and Natalie and also the Haitian mission director, Jude Montis,
all killed that same evening. Jude Montis was laid to rest earlier this week in a very large funeral in Port-au-Prince.
ASHER: All right. Caitlin Hu, live for us today. I appreciate you joining us. Thank you so much.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Coming up for us, President Biden is facing criticism for his handling of Israel's war on Hamas. We'll you how Arab
Americans in key states are reacting and implications for the November elections.
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ASHER: All right. We are on verdict watch, waiting to see if today is the day that the jury in Donald Trump's hush money trial can actually reach a
decision on 34 felony charges against the former President.
GOLODRYGA: We're looking for any sort of signs we can get. They've been back, the jury has been back in the jury room for a little more than an
hour today. Now, the jurors spent the first part of the morning having testimony and instructions read back to them by the judge and his clerks.
They seem to be focused on a 2015 meeting where "National Enquirer" publisher David Pecker spoke to Donald Trump and Michael Cohen about the
scheme to catch and kill stories that could be harmful to Trump's campaign. Of course, we'll be keeping a close eye on this.
ASHER: All right, President Joe Biden launched a nationwide effort to mobilize black voters during a campaign rally in Philadelphia on Wednesday.
He's aiming to win black support from a slice of the electorate that polls show is actually wavering.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, Biden was joined by Vice President Kamala Harris and during his speech, the President boosted his achievements and warned of a,
quote, "racist and toxic agenda being peddled by his rival, Donald Trump".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: Because black Americans voted, Kamala and I are President and Vice President of the United States because of you. That's
not hyperbole. Because you voted, Donald Trump is defeated, former President. And with your vote -- with your vote, in 2024, we're going to
make Donald Trump a loser again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: And staying on the campaign trail, Joe Biden is also rolling out major Hollywood stars to deliver his message to voters. His campaign is
announcing a fundraiser with Julia Roberts and George Clooney next month. But multiple sources have told CNN that many in Hollywood are actually
weary of jumping into the fray amid a highly divisive political landscape.
A brand new poll shows that Arab American support for President Biden seems to be waning in certain key swing states.
[12:35:01]
Those are crucial to winning the presidency in November.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, Florida, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Virginia are key states. And the poll done this month by the Arab American Institute shows
neither candidate is getting high marks for popularity. Overall, 79 percent of Arab Americans have an unfavorable view of President Biden, while 56
percent have an unfavorable view of presumptive Republican candidate Donald Trump.
Zooming in on President Biden now and breaking down his support among Arab American voters, it's only eight percent in Florida, 15 percent in
Michigan, 29 percent in Pennsylvania, and 22 percent in Virginia.
Time now for The Exchange. And let's bring in someone who can analyze these statistics. James Zogby is the founder and president of the Arab American
Institute. He's also the author of the book "Arab Voices: What They Are Saying to Us and Why It Matters".
James, welcome to the program. It's good to have you on. I mean, it's pretty stark numbers here for President Biden, specifically when you
consider that his popularity and support among the Arab American vote now is the same as it was last year in October at 20 percent versus where it
was in 2020 at 60 percent. What more is the takeaway from the study?
JAMES ZOGBY, PRESIDENT, ARAB AMERICAN INSTITUTE: Well, the issue is Gaza. Without a doubt, it is the pain that Gaza has caused. I call it the wound
in the Arab heart that never heals. And frankly, it has taken a huge chunk out of the President's support.
The good news in the poll is that he can win it back if he were to take a dramatic stand and suspend arms shipments or to demand an immediate
ceasefire and unimpeded humanitarian aid. But it seems unlikely he's going to take those kind of dramatic stands. And so, the numbers look bleak.
ASHER: And when you think about just the polling here, I want to read our audience some of the polling that came out. Seventy-nine percent of Arab
Americans voters have an unfavorable view of President Biden compared with 56 for Donald Trump. I mean, explain that, because when you think about
Trump's rhetoric when it comes to the Israeli-Gaza war, I mean, he's talked just a few days ago.
He talked to wealthy donors about the fact that if he were in charge, he would crush pro-Palestinian protests on college campuses. So, on the face
of it, that this these sorts of numbers don't really make much sense. Explain it to us.
ZOGBY: Well, they don't. And pollsters do talk about what is called a kind of a Trump nostalgia. People forget three and a half years ago. There is a
sense of forgetting. And certainly the Biden campaign is going to do its best to remind people of what was. But when I talk to people, look, I'm a
Democrat. Let me just be honest about that. And this pains me a great deal.
But I want to be honest about where we are. Where we are is people are saying, yeah, I remember how bad he was. But you know what? This is really
horrible. And I don't know what it will take to win me back. They just are watching this genocide unfolding every single day. It's causing tremendous
pain.
And Joe Biden, they view as responsible for not putting a stop to it, for not taking a decisive stand, for creating red lines that become invisible
or keep moving in the wrong direction. I mean, the person who's causing you pain now is going to be viewed more unfavorably than the person who caused
you pain years ago and may cause you pain in the future. That's the only thing I take away from this.
But look, the big another big number here is the almost one half of voters who say they're undecided or the significant number, more than a half, who
say they're just not enthusiastic about voting at all in this election. That's a big number at this point for people to just say, I'm not even I
don't even think I'm going to vote.
I've told I've told people when they tell me, you know, when it comes to a binary choice, Biden versus Trump, they'll all come down for Biden. They'll
remember. I say the binary choice is going to be, do they vote or not vote at all? And I think a lot of folks just won't vote. And that's true, not
just for Arab Americans, but it's true for young people, for progressives in particular, for blacks and for Asians. We're finding that in our broader
polling that that's the case. A lot of folks are just going to stay home.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, that sentiment, I was going to say, is not exclusive to just Arab American voters. But what is interesting, unlike other polls in
terms of the top issues for Arab American voters, it is Gaza.
ZOGBY: Right.
GOLODRYGA: Unlike younger Americans who may not be happy with how this war is being conducted, obviously, they say that the economy or the cost of
living or other issues are a top priority. That's not the case for Arab American voters.
I do want to ask you if we can go back to the poll that you conducted in October of 2023, where President Biden received only 20 percent of the Arab
American vote. I'm just curious as to what was the trigger, because at that point, we hadn't seen some of these really difficult images that have
progressed throughout this war and seen the headlines and the death toll continue to rise.
[12:40:13]
ZOGBY: Well, we were we were seeing it. Remember, the poll was done the end of October. We had already had a couple of weeks into it. And there was
a sense that this was spinning out of control. I remember having meetings with the Secretary of State and the National Security Adviser saying, look
at how many more civilians have to die before you decide to stop.
It was something that was painful. I think what's happened is that people are going in the opposite direction. It's solidified. That sense of
frustration solidified. So, yeah, I think that Gaza has been an issue almost from the beginning of this conflict.
Certainly not on day one. There was a sense day one after what happened on October 7th, there was horror at what Hamas had done and what had been
unleashed. But as the days went on, the Israeli response became so not just disproportionate, but genocidal that people, you know, look, we were seeing
hospitals bombed, schools bombed, neighborhoods destroyed. That was happening in the first couple of weeks. So, yeah, it's been there from the
beginning. It's now just solidified.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, of course, Israelis argue that their intent is obviously not genocide, but to go after Hamas. But we see the suffering there among
civilians. And it's hard not to just be heartbroken by what we're seeing going on.
ZOGBY: Yeah.
GOLODRYGA: Also notable in your report is the role the third parties are playing in this election, as well. It is a really interesting read. James
Zogby, thank you.
ASHER: Thank you, James. Appreciate it.
ZOGBY: Thank you so much. Thank you.
ASHER: Of course. The majority of South Africans are under 30 years old. That means they've only known the African National Congress as their
government. But that could actually be changing in the next few days. We'll tell you why after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Well, by the weekend, South Africans will find out if the party that has run the country for 30 years will stay in power. The vote count is
underway from Wednesday's election, and early results show that the African National Congress may not have the 50 percent it needs to hold on to power.
ASHER: Yeah, much of the newspaper coverage praised people for showing up to the polls. Voters say there's growing resentment with the ANC over
unemployment, corruption, and crime.
[12:45:07]
At last check, the ANC had nearly 43 percent of the vote. While it won the most of any party, it still hasn't reached just yet the 50 percent it needs
to retain control. The winner might actually not be known officially until the weekend.
CNN's David McKenzie joins us live now from Johannesburg. David, we don't have the full results just yet, but regardless, this does represent a
seismic shift in South African politics after 30 years of dominance. I mean, this could really be a major change for the ANC.
DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Oh, Zain, it is very important. Even if it's a relatively early stage, if you look at these
numbers of how the ANC already is well under the 50 percent mark, that is truly significant. ANC has dominated South African politics since the dawn
of democracy. They have always gotten well over 50 percent, meaning they could govern without some kind of coalition.
If you look at the numbers that we're showing you now, with about 20 percent of voting districts counted, the ANC is below 45 percent. You see
the official opposition holding its relative spot. Something very important to show is that MK party at the bottom, that's uMkhonto weSisizwe party,
which is its figurehead is Jacob Zuma, the former president of South Africa, who has faced multiple allegations of corruption over the past few
years.
He was the President of the country, had to resign several years ago. He is now the thorn in the side of the ANC. They are making huge strides against
the ANC, in particular in the KwaZulu-Natal province, the coastal province.
And what this means is if these numbers hold, and it's still too early to say, Zain, that if they hold, you could see the ANC having to join up with
a large opposition party to form the government. We're in uncharted territory here in South Africa. There's never been a coalition government
at the national level in this country. And there will be a lot of horse trading, I'm sure, going on right now behind the scenes, even as these
votes come in and are counted.
ASHER: All right, Dave McKenzie, live for us there. We'll see what happens this weekend. Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Meantime, in Hong Kong. Hong Kong's leader says the city will fight resolutely against acts that endanger national security. In a major
blow to Hong Kong's democratic opposition movement, a court handed down guilty verdicts to 14 opposition figures. It follows the largest national
security trial since Beijing's sweeping crackdown on Hong Kong.
ASHER: Human rights groups have condemned today's ruling. The European Union and Australia expressing a deep concern over the verdict. Prosecutors
say they plan to appeal the acquittal of two former district councilors. The defendants were among 47 arrested in 2021 for organizing an unofficial
primary election ahead of Hong Kong's legislative vote.
GOLODRYGA: All right, coming up for us, why this man's hilarious court appearance via Zoom left the judge and frankly all of us quite stunned.
We'll play it for you after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: To Graceland and a strange twist in the story of the dubious foreclosure threat against the property. A person claiming to be involved
in a scheme to steal Elvis Presley's former home has responded to an email from CNN telling our reporters, I didn't win this one.
ASHER: They claim to have stolen many identities and made money from fraud, but basically you can't win them all. It's unclear whether this
person is genuine or not, but the foreclosure sale was blocked and the company trying to take the property dropped its claim.
Well, he's already had more success than most people could wish for and Kiss frontman Gene Simmons, now in his 70s, is showing absolutely no signs
of slowing down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA (voice-over): The band, of course, famous for this hit among many others, sold its catalog last month for a reported cool $300 million.
CNN's Richard Quest caught up with Gene Simmons.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD QUEST, CNN ANCHOR: Is it difficult to sell the catalog? Do you feel like you've sold a bit of yourself?
GENE SIMMONS, SINGER FOR ROCK GROUP KISS: Well, there's emotional and then there's business and seldom the two make sense. You know, you've got to
pick and choose your battles wisely. So, I don't know about you, but as I get closer to the end of life, to the end of race, I speed up. I don't slow
down. So, what am I going to do with next numbers of hundreds of millions of dollars? And at a certain point, take the cash, my friend.
QUEST: When we get to a certain age, my friend, we've got the aches and pains that go with it. But how does one maintain --
SIMMONS: I don't.
QUEST: You don't?
SIMMONS: I'm blessed because genes are part of the magic of life. You're either born with the right genes or not.
QUEST: Right.
SIMMONS: I'm 74. I'm going to be 75. I know you don't want to hear that. I've never had a massage in my life. I've never been high or drunk and
never smoked cigarettes. And I can you know, I go hiking three to five times. I feel more energetic now than I have in 20 years.
And look, Jagger, God bless him, just went out with the Stones at 80 years old and he is running around on stage much easier than perhaps you and I
would. Well, maybe -- maybe not as much as I do.
QUEST: Why do you want to keep doing money bags this, money bags that. I mean, you have earned enough money to sit up on your backside, pop your
feet up.
SIMMONS: I hope -- I hope you never say that ever again to any living being, but especially to yourself. There's no such thing as you have enough
money. But Richard Quest, my invitation to you as a friend is, if you ever have a spare dollar you don't want, please send it to me. That will make me
happier.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: And Gene, if you ever have a spare dollar that you don't want.
GOLODRYGA: I don't think that will ever happen.
ASHER: Three hundred million.
GOLODRYGA: That was fun.
ASHER: Richard Quest speaking to -- a lively banter there.
GOLODRYGA: Yes.
ASHER: -- to Gene Simmons.
GOLODRYGA: Well, now it's perhaps not the best tactic to employ when trying to impress a judge. Defendant Corey Harris appeared in a Michigan
court via Zoom from behind the wheel. He was actually there to answer a charge of driving while his license was suspended. So, he spoke to the
judge while driving to answer a court charge, with suspended license. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Assistant Public Defender Natalie Tate for Mr. Harris, who should be present in Zoom.
COREY HARRIS, DEFENDANT: Hello?
CEDRIC SIMPSON, WASHTENAW COUNTY JUDGE: Mr. Harris, are you driving?
HARRIS: Actually, I'm pulling into my doctor's office, actually. So, so I'll just give me one second. I'm parking right now.
SIMPSON: Maybe I don't understand something. This is a driving while license suspended.
UNKNOWN: That is correct, Your Honor.
SIMPSON: And he was just driving. And he didn't have a license.
[12:55:03]
I don't even know why he would do that. So, defendant's bond is revoked in this matter. Defendant is turning himself into the Washtenaw County Jail by
6 P.M. today. Failure to turn himself in will result in a bench warrant with no bond.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: Oh my God. His face. First of all, when he was busted the first time around, and then when the judge was like, at the very end, it was
like.
GOLODRYGA: Well, clearly, there are a number of errors on his part. First of all, never leave a judge waiting. Hold on. Let me just pull over to a
parking lot.
ASHER: He did use the doctor's excuse, though. So, I would have thought that would have earned him some points, but apparently not.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah. Well, I guess he won't be driving anytime soon.
ASHER: I could watch that video more than once.
GOLODRYGA: His reaction at the very end.
ASHER: And just to add that CNN did read out to Mr. Harris' lawyers for comment. I guess we haven't heard back yet.
GOLODRYGA: We'll keep you posted. That does it for this hour of ONE WORLD. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Bianna Golodryga.
ASHER: I'm Zain Asher. Thanks so much for watching. "AMANPOUR" is up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
