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One World with Zain Asher

Blinken Determined To Bridge Gaps In Israel-Hamas' Ceasefire Negotiations; Sudan On The Edge Of A Very Dangerous Tipping Point; Pope Francis' Old Photo Wearing A White Puffer Jacket Proven To Be A.I.- Generated. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired June 12, 2024 - 12:00:00   ET




ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: All right. U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is determined to bridge the gaps in Israel-Hamas' ceasefire negotiations.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: "ONE WORLD" starts right now. Russian warships and a nuclear submarine arriving in Cuba. Live from Havana, we

will learn more about the friendship -- the growing friendship between Russia and Cuba.

ASHER: Plus, the dire situation in North Darfur is only getting worse with even hospitals now being targeted. We will take you live to Sudan, as well.

GOLODRYGA: And achievement after tragedy. Student survivors of the Sandy Hook shooting are now graduating from high school.

ASHER: All right, coming to you live from New York I'm Zain Asher.

GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga. You are watching "ONE WORLD". U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken says that it's time for the haggling to

stop and a ceasefire to start, now, 250 days into the war in Gaza.

ASHER: Right, after meetings in four countries in three days, Antony Blinken has just wrapped up his latest push for a hostage release and

ceasefire deal, as well. He actually spoke earlier at his last stop in Doha and that's alongside Qatari's Prime Minister, as well. The proposal

currently on the table right now is backed by the U.N. Security Council and was outlined by U.S. President Joe Biden but it's fate at this point in

time still remains unclear.

GOLODRYGA: Mediators are studying a response from Hamas which is now asking for amendments some two weeks later. Blinken said some of the

changes are workable and some are not.


ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: You know at some point in a negotiation and this has gone back and forth for a long time, you get to a

point where if one side continues to change its demands including making demands and insisting on changes for things that had already accepted, you

have to question whether they're proceeding in good faith or not. But based on what we've seen and what I've discussed with the Prime Minister and what

we discussed with our Egyptian colleagues, we're determined to try to bridge the gaps.


GOLODRYGA: Let's bring in CNN's Oren Liebermann who joins us now live from Tel Aviv Israel and you could sense the frustration from the Secretary of

State now making his eighth visit to the region since October 7th saying in essence that Hamas had one response that they should have delivered and

that is yes, instead they've had two weeks to mull over this particular proposal. Israel seemed more and more inclined towards accepting it and yet

here we are once again with Hamas making changes. Explain the ramifications for us.

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Secretary of State Antony Blinken clearly expressed some of his frustration there but he wasn't looking to

wrap this up and get to a deal on this trip. Still, it's clear he believes and the country has believed a window remains open for trying to make

progress here and that remains the goal.

Standing in the way according to Blinken is Hamas' response, neither a rejection nor an acceptance of the deal as it stands right now. Regardless

of the fact according to Blinken that Hamas had previously agreed to parts of this proposal that are already there, that they are now trying to change

and that's why you heard him just a moment ago asking whether that without mentioning Hamas if they were negotiating in good faith.

He urged Hamas to negotiate he will try to use whatever leverage the countries have, whatever leverage the U.N. Security Council resolution has

to try to push this forward. Blinken clearly believing Israel is on board and now it's a question of where Hamas stands. It took them some 12 days to

respond after President Joe Biden publicly backed the agreement.

Again it's certainly not dead yet, they are still working here, but Blinken aware of the challenges that lie ahead and trying to work through those.

The country said this is a negotiation, there are points here that have to be talked about and that's what they will do at this point to try to get

this to move forward. But Bianna and Zain, we've seen this happen before it gets close perhaps not this close but in the past close and then it all

falls apart in the details and that's where we are right now.

ASHER: And Oren, in the meantime, what can you tell us about escalation on the northern border especially after Israeli airstrikes killed a really

sort of senior Hezbollah militant commander?

LIEBERMANN: So, we have seen a tremendous amount of volatility in the north including an escalated level of hostilities between Israel and

Hezbollah and that once again has reached another level or escalated even more.


Israel assassinated a Hezbollah commander, Talib Sami Abdullah, who they say was responsible for carrying out attacks on Israeli civilians, as well

as several other Hezbollah militants. And in response, Hezbollah has fired 200 or so rockets in the Northern Israel, sparking fires, forcing even more


It's worth noting that the U.S. and the countries do not see what's happening in the north as disrupting the negotiations and yet the north of

Israel between the fighting between Israel and Hezbollah is something that could very much lead to its own front of a war and that's what everyone is

trying to avoid here.

Blinken, very realistic about how this works here. If there's a ceasefire in Gaza, there's a ceasefire in the north, and that's another reason that

Gaza is so important. Meanwhile, Israel's northern border showing its volatility once again.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, some 60,000 residents there displaced thousands of residents displaced and southern Lebanon, as well. I think some nearly

20,000 rockets have been fired from Hezbollah into Israel since October 7th Hezbollah saying that they are doing this in solidarity with the

Palestinians there in Gaza. Oren Liebermann, thank you so much.

And coming up in our next half hour, we'll be speaking with a former top Israeli intelligence official who had spent nearly 200 hours interrogating

the head of Hamas in Gaza, Yahya Sinwar. We'll get his views about what the Hamas leader is thinking now.

ASHER: All right, now to a scathing new U.N. report that paints a brutal picture of how the war in Gaza is being conducted. The inquiry finds that

both Hamas and Israel -- both parties, both sides have committed war crimes and other violations of international law.

GOLODRYGA: The 200-page report covers actions starting with the Hamas terror attacks on October 7th through the end of 2023. Israel is lashing

out accusing the U.N. of being anti-Israel. CNN's Jomana Karadsheh has more.


JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: After months of investigations, the Commission of Inquiry releasing two damning reports more than 200 pages

with their findings. One report focused on the October 7th attacks on Israel where they found that Hamas and six other Palestinian armed groups

and in some instances, they say they were aided by Palestinians in civilian clothing.

They had committed war crimes including intentionally directing attacks against civilians, murder, or willful killing, torture, taking hostages

including children and more. They also say that they identified quote patterns indicative of sexual violence and concluded that these were not

isolated incidents but perpetrated in similar ways in several locations primarily against Israeli women.

Now, the report on the Israeli military operations in Gaza focused mostly on events between October and December and they found that Israel had

committed crimes against humanity and war crimes accusing Israel of using starvation as a method of warfare. They say that Israel enforced a total

siege on Gaza amounting to collective punishment of the population, intentionally directing attacks against civilians and civilian


Here, they say that they found that the immense number of civilian casualties and the widespread destruction is a result of a strategy to

cause maximum damage disregarding the rules of war, proportionality, distinction and adequate precautions.

Other crimes that they accuse Israel of -- sexual violence, extermination, murder or willful killing, forcible transfer and more. The Commission

accused Israel of obstructing its investigation and says that it had prevented access to Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. And,

you know, Israel for months had made its position clear saying that it was not going to deal with what it described as this anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic


Now, today in a statement responding to these findings it said that the U.N. Commission of Inquiry showed quote systemic anti-Israeli

discrimination, again rejecting accusations against the IDF saying that it adheres to international law and carries out its own investigations. They

also say that the report disregarded what Israel says is Hamas using civilians as human shields.

And on the accusations of sexual violence, Israel says it's outraged by attempts to draw a quote, "false equivalence between Israeli soldiers and

Hamas". Jomana Karadsheh, CNN London.

GOLODRYGA: Our thanks to Jomana for that report. Well, it is a scene reminiscent out of the Cold War and the message, well, it couldn't be any


ASHER: Yeah, three Russian warships and a nuclear-powered submarine arrived in Cuba a few hours ago. They're taking part in planned military

exercises in the Caribbean but the real goal is essentially a projection of strength by Russia on the world stage.


It's being very closely watched by the U.S. and it comes amid rising tensions between Washington and Moscow over, of course, the war in Ukraine.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, CNN's Patrick Oppmann joins us now live from Havana. Patrick, this could be a conversation reminiscent of something we would

have been discussing decades ago and yet here we are, the U.S., we know, has been monitoring these ships very closely. Talk about the significance

of it. The U.S. intelligence doesn't believe that these ships are armed with nuclear weapons. Nonetheless, just 90 miles off of the coast of


PATRICK OPPMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Just 90 miles off the coast of Florida and only about 50 yards from where I'm standing. Right behind me, there --

there are the four Russian naval ships that came into the port of Havana this morning. The ship directly behind me is a rescue ship an icebreaker

which does not have much use in the Caribbean. And then behind that is a nuclear-powered sub the Kazan something Cubans say they've never seen

before in this country.

A nuclear-powered submarine coming in for all to witness in the port of Havana, really something quite unusual. And then, behind is the Gorshkov

which is one of the most modern military ships capable of firing cruise missiles that Vladimir Putin possesses, really the highest level of

technology that the Russian Navy can boast. So, those are for all to see.

They are docked in an area a few years ago. You would have seen American cruise ships but because of U.S. sanctions, they're no longer allowed to

come here. And right before we came on air, I could hear the sailors singing the Russian national anthem. So, it certainly felt like a moment

from the past, you know. It wasn't that long ago, of course, that the Soviet Union was supplying Cuba with everything they needed here and the

economy was doing much, much better, as a result.

We have seen some of that come back over the last few years with the war in Ukraine where Vladimir Putin in exchange for Cuban supports in that war has

sent more oil here more food. There are a lot more Russian tourists here these days and that is helping Cuba as the economy is really in some of the

worst -- the worst stage that it has been in decades.

Literally, Russian oil and many instances is keeping the lights on when they are on here because for much of the time, there are nationwide

blackouts taking place. So, Cuba has increasingly voiced its support for Vladimir Putin invasion in Ukraine and Vladimir Putin has returned their

favor certainly striking to see the ships here behind me armed with nuclear weapons or not so close to the United States.

ASHER: Yeah, and just obviously yes very alarming but just in terms of what Cuba has said about this, Patrick, Cuba's essentially saying look this

is standard practice. We do this frequently with countries that are sort of friendly to Cuba in terms of their own naval units and as you pointed out,

Cuba also saying that look, there are no nuclear weapons on board the ship. There's absolutely no threat, whatsoever. But still, talk us through how

closely the U.S. Navy is watching this.

OPPMAN: Well, the U.S. Navy essentially escorted them into Cuban waters as the ships while they were in international waters. We're essentially

skirting the coast of Florida so certainly, they're watching him now they will be keeping an eye on them if they depart from here and go to another

U.S. adversary, the country of Venezuela.

You know, the U.S. has a naval maneuvers around the globe, as well. They certainly have a much more active Navy right now than Russia's. So, this is

something these countries do. They keep a distance from another as they shadow one another's ships and there's a certain amount of professionalism


And yes, it's true that many other countries send their Navy ships here on friendly visits such as this one they allow the Cuban public sometimes

aboard their ships as we expect to take place later on in the week here with the ships behind me.

But of course, the relationship that Cuba had with Russia for so many years during the Cold War is very, very different from those relationships no

other nation in the world has based nuclear warheads here. No other nation in the world was so supportive of Cuba. He was essentially a client state

of the USSR for many, many years. And you hear Russian officials saying that they want to invest more in Cuba that they want to help the Cuban

economy grow.

But they also sometimes lament that Cuba remains a communist run state and Russia is not anymore. So, even the Russians, despite the years of that

close relationship have trouble making anything happen in Cuba these days which really says a lot about Cuba's economy and the entrenched bureaucracy

here. But Cuban officials saying that simply U.S. sanctions have pushed them back into the arms of their old ally.


But of course, the economy in Russia, certainly, is very different these days. Russia no longer able to finance Cuba as it once did.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, Russia no longer a member of the G8 after its annexation of Crimea notable that the President -- President Biden is meeting with his

G7, now, counterparts today in Italy. Patrick Oppmann stating the obvious, no need for an icebreaker in the Caribbean and yet there is one right

behind you. Thank you so much.

ASHER: Thank you, Patrick. That was a great pivot to our next conversation about the G7. As Bianna pointed out, Biden is at -- the G7 is about to land

in Italy in a few hours from now. Ukraine's obviously going to be a major topic of conversation. Joe Biden and other world leaders heading to

southern Italy on the eve of this high-stakes meeting and we're hearing that the group of seven top democracies plan to focus on how to use Russian

frozen rather Russian assets to help Ukraine.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, sources also telling CNN that the U.S. and Ukrainian Presidents are expected to sign a long-term security agreement on the

sidelines of the summit. Another hot topic -- artificial intelligence that will also feature in the G7 conversation. Italy says Pope Francis is

expected to lead the A.I. discussion out. That is something I would have not predicted but nonetheless, here we are. Yeah.

ASHER: All right. CNN's Nic Robertson is standing by for us. He is in Italy, not far from the summit. So, Nic, obviously as you mentioned a major

sort of topic of conversation is the war in Ukraine. Of course, another topic will be China's support for Russia. But also, this idea that the U.S.

President really wants to draw a contrast between himself in terms of his foreign policy goals and his main rival here, Donald Trump.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: All of the above. But hey, should we just talk for a second about the Pope and A.I.--

ASHER: Yes, please.

ROBERTSON: -- because there is a connection and maybe -- maybe a lot of people -- maybe a lot of our audiences were -- kind of miss that. Go back

to last year and the Pope was spotted or photographed wearing a white puffer jacket. But wait a minute, he wasn't. It was fake. It was A.I. that

had generated that. And so, the Pope has, like, this vested interest.

This is a Pope who was, you know, was educated with a technical education and chemistry. This is a Pope who believes there's good things that can

come out of A.I. So, his message here will be to urge these world leaders here at the G7, these democratic nations who are the sort of most powerful

economic nations around the world to kind of get their hands around A.I. and make it a force for good and not bad, i.e. faking the Pope and a white

puffer jacket.

But back to those other issues which are equally serious. Yes, Biden here on a mission to portray the United States and his presidency and the future

presidency as one with a commitment to the current international world order specifically pushing back on Putin's aggression against Ukraine,

specifically multilaterally working with the G7 President here, the Italian Prime Minister Giorgio Meloni, to work with the E.U., to find a way to

button up this agreement that's almost landed whereby you -- they use Russia's frozen assets -- $300 billion worth, take the profits from those

and give them to Ukraine -- about $50 billion worth.

Give them to Ukraine for the humanitarian rebuilding of the country. So, that's the aim, the technical bit is who kind of underwrites it, how much

of its E.U., how much of its the U.S., that's what has to be worked out but there's the bilateral stuff, as well.

Biden coming in here flexing his sanctions muscles against Russia, trying to stop them, breaching sanctions, getting around sanctions using third

countries to get third-party access to U.S. software, U.S. technologies that Russia's then sort of using to put in weapon systems. So, there's --

there's that. And then, there's this bilateral security arrangement.

Go back to NATO last year. Zelenskyy went there -- President Zelenskyy went there hoping to get this sort of big long-term backing from NATO, a

security commitment. And what he got was an agreement for that all the individual 32 nations would get bilateral security packages with Ukraine --

14 of those are done. President Biden's one will be the 15th -- 17 more to go. So, Biden here signaling United States is going to do it. Those other

15 --17 nations, rather, they should get on and do it, as well.

ASHER: All right, Nic Robertson, live -- thank you so much for clearing that up about the Pope and A.I. The pope has been talking about using A.I.

for peace. We know that the Vatican actually signed some kind of agreement with Microsoft's talk about using A.I.


GOLODRYGA: And I don't know if that was A.I., but managing to do it all with a barking dog behind you there. So, well done, Nic Robertson.

ASHER: That is actually the real Nic Robertson. Deep fake. All right, Nic Robertson, thank you so much.

GOLODRYGA: All right, coming up for us. One of the world's most forgotten wars -- 14 months into the deadly conflict, the crisis in Sudan is only

deepening. Our conversation with a humanitarian expert on what needs to happen right now. That is next.

ASHER: Plus, it is a bittersweet day in Connecticut. Survivors of the Sandy Hook school massacre reached a milestone. We are live for you in

Newtown, this hour.


ASHER: All right, 14 months into a devastating civil war between two rival military groups, Sudan may be on the edge of a very dangerous tipping point

right now.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, a short time ago, the U.N. warned that the conflict is pushing millions of people to the brink of starvation. Many of those who

are struggling to survive are children.

RETAJ, SEVEN YEARS OLD (through translator): Our situation is bad. We don't have any money for food and water. At home, we would eat three meals,

breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Here, we eat only one meal, breakfast. I want to go to the second grade and then the third grade and become a doctor to

treat sick people. But now, I just want the war to stop and for us to find food and water.


GOLODRYGA: The U.N. also warned Sudan's health system is collapsing, and help is becoming scarce for the countless people who need it. Doctors

Without Borders says a paramilitary group, RSF, stormed the main hospital in North Darfur over the weekend and stole vital medical supplies.

ASHER: In the aftermath of that attack, the International Criminal Court's chief prosecutor is investigating allegations of war crimes and crimes

against humanity in the city of Al-Fasher, which is where rival factions are waging a deadly battle for control.

Joining me live now to discuss the humanitarian crisis on the ground is Kashif Shafique. He's the country director for Relief International, and he

joins us live now from Port Sudan. Thank you so much for being with us. I was actually going to start this conversation talking to you about the

number of people in Sudan who have been displaced by this war.

The fact that we know that the humanitarian crisis is so severe, that there are so many people there on the brink of famine, the fact that one of the

last remaining hospitals in Al-Fasher has been forced to close because of the violence.


But during the commercial break, my producer got into my ear and told me that one of your ambulance workers who worked for your charity was shot

recently, which speaks so much about the sheer level of violence happening in the country. I, first of all, want to say I am so sorry for your loss,

but what does that really say about what humanitarian workers are risking by going into Sudan at a time like this?

KASHIF SHAFIQUE, COUNTRY DIRECTOR, RELIEF INTERNATIONAL SUDAN: Thank you so much, Zain, for having me on this broadcast and this crucial topic as

you started, that has been unforgettable. And here we are going to talk about, and recently the tragic incident of one of the drivers who was

carrying on a regular basis patients from the Zamzam to the Southern Hospital and saving their lives.

And on the same day when he got the shot, he dropped one pregnant female, and while going back, he was shot in the chest. But unfortunately, after

that, he was not able to get the intensive care. Eventually, the recent attack on Southern Hospital was devastating, which is not able to bring any

sort of extensive care for him. Eventually, he was died there before.

And on this tragic news, we as Relief International and all the humanitarian actors are so much concerned on the situation overall in

Sudan, and specifically what's happening in al-Faishal, Nartakour. The situation on ground is that people are rushing to seek refuge, but they

don't have any idea where to go.

The one of the secondary hospital, the Southern Hospital, recently targeted, and after that, the secondary level providing intensive care for

the trauma care surgeries are completely out of function. And now, SMH and the local community, they are relying only to the basic health facilities

to provide the extensive care.

GOLODRYGA: Kashif, thank you, first of all, for joining us and for doing all of the brave work that you are doing for the people there. We know

thousands have been killed over the past year. There's risk of even more famine and bloodshed in response directly to that attack.

At the hospital, at the time, it is reported the head of emergency of operations at Doctors Without Borders said at the time of the attack there

were 10 patients there and a reduced medical crew. And the fact that now this hospital may not be functioning, and clearly is not safe, speaks

volumes about the threat to the innocent civilians there. Give us a sense of just the dire situation in terms of medical aid, medical assistance,

hospitals, anything that you are doing to help provide for the suffering people there.

SHAFIQUE: So, Relief International is running around 40 plus health clinics down there in Natarpur. We have a track record working in Natarpur

from last over 15 years, providing critical health care. Now with this situation where the secondary care is completely collapsed and most of the

people recently increased, they are able to get some sort of support in the Saudi hospital, but the condition of the Saudi hospital is that it can

barely accommodate 10 or 20 people right now.

And the SMOH, or the local ministries on ground, they don't have the water, they don't have the fuel supplies. The ambulances which were recently taken

by the conflicting parties, and they're able to use the public transport, and due to the threat on ground, the public transporters are also not

willing to medevac the people from one location to another.

Considering that now all the injuries are being moved to the facilities like the Zamzam camp, we are already having around 550,000 IDPs and

currently minimum number of the organizations who are left on ground providing this extensive support. And Relief International is one of these

organizations who is providing the critical health care. In addition to the collapse of the health structure, the malnutrition is going high day by



What we are observing through the news screening recently, large number of new children being identified with the Zamzam man cases, which is really

concerning. The vendors, they are not able to bring in the food supplies into the city because the city is completely surrounded. And humanitarian

aid, they are not able to bring down the humanitarian assistance. If this will continue another two or three weeks, I think we'll be seeing the

famine cases on ground taking their lives.

ASHER: You know, it is extremely tragic what is happening in Sudan, as we've talked about just the sheer number of displaced people, the fact that

the country is on the brink of famine, the number of children who have been displaced, as well. But on a more sort of personal note, we, again, are

deeply sorry for your loss.

The fact that not only was one of your workers shot, but even after being shot, they were unable to get the help that they needed in order to

survive. So, that is a double tragedy. And once again, we are so sorry for your loss on that front, and also to his family members, as well. Kashif

Shafique, thank you so much for being with us.

GOLODRYGA: Thank you.

SHAFIQUE: Thank you so much, Zain.

GOLODRYGA: Well, still to come for us, a look at the man running Hamas' military operations in Gaza, and a conversation with someone who has spent

decades studying him.



ASHER: All right, welcome back to "ONE WORLD". I'm Zain Asher.

GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga. U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken has spent the last few days urging a ceasefire in Gaza, but he says

Hamas has asked for changes now.

ASHER: Yeah. Yahya, Sinwar is believed to be the mastermind behind the October 7th attacks that essentially started this conflict. However, U.S.

officials think that Sinwar doesn't want to stop anything at this point. Let's get more now from CNN's Oren Liebermann.


LIEBERMANN (voice-over): In an all-out push to stop the fighting in Gaza, negotiators are hoping for elusive success. The focus is on Yahya Sinwar.

Hamas' military leader hasn't been seen in public since the start of the war, hiding somewhere in the bombarded enclave. But Sinwar may believe he

has the upper hand.

"We have the Israelis right where we want them," Sinwar said in recent messages to Hamas officials viewed by "The Wall Street Journal". Sinwar's

leaked messages, which CNN hasn't seen and cannot independently verify, shed light into his mindset during eight months of brutal war.

According to the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza, more than 37,000 Palestinians have been killed in Israel's assault on the territory. In one

message to Hamas leaders in Doha, Sinwar wrote, "These are necessary sacrifices." The Israeli military responded on social media saying, "Sinwar

profits off the deaths of Gazan civilians. Hamas leaders don't care about Gazans. How many times do they have to say it for themselves before the

world believes them?" Secretary of State Antony Blinken, in the region to push a ceasefire proposal, aimed his message directly at Sinwar.

BLINKEN: While the people that he purports to represent continue to suffer in a crossfire of his own making, or will he do what's necessary to

actually move this to a better place, to help end the suffering of people, to help bring real security to Israelis and Palestinians alike?

LIEBERMANN (voice-over): Sinwar spent more than two decades in Israeli prisons, convicted for playing a role in the murder of two Israeli soldiers

and four Palestinians suspected of working with Israel. He was released in the 2011 hostage deal for Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit and rose to the top

of Hamas. Israeli journalist Shlomi Eldar says Sinwar's ascent was marked by his brutality.

SHLOMI ELDAR, ISRAELI JOURNALIST: This is Sinwar and life and death for him is nothing. As many Palestinians will be killed by the IDF, the more

pressure from the international community.

LIBERMANN (voice-over): Believed to be the mastermind of the October 7th attack, messages suggest even Sinwar was surprised by its atrocities.

"Things went out of control," he wrote early on. But Sinwar soon doubled down on the war. In a message to Hamas' political leaders in December, he

said, "We have the capabilities to continue fighting for months."

LIEBERMANN: Secretary of State Antony Blinken is still in the region. He met earlier this week with the Egyptians and the Israelis, then the

Jordanians and the Qataris, the key players in trying to leverage some sort of pressure on Hamas, on Yahya Sinwar, to get a hostage deal done, to get a

ceasefire in place. The problem is it doesn't appear Sinwar is feeling any of that pressure, and that means the task of getting to that ceasefire

remains incredibly difficult. Oren Liebermann, CNN in Tel Aviv.


GOLODRYGA: Well, time now for The Exchange, and we want to understand more about Yahya Sinwar and how he thinks. Joining us now is Micha Kobi. He was

the head of interrogation department for Israel's security service, the Shin Bet. Yahya Sinwar was among the people he interrogated during his


Micha, thank you so much for your time. We should note that you spent nearly 200 hours interrogating Yahya Sinwar while he was imprisoned from

2005 to 2011. He was serving four life sentences, and then, as we noted in Oren's piece, he was exchanged for Gilad Shalit and some 1000 other


It's been fascinating to dive deeper into his psychology this week. "The Wall Street Journal" had a really extensive report into some of the letters

exchanged between himself and other Hamas leadership since October 7th. One of them said, we have the Israelis right where we want them.

Clearly, he views Palestinian civilians as pawns in this war against Israel. I'm wondering, given your time, your experience, really getting to

know this man and his psychology, if he thinks Hamas is pressured enough right now to agree to this proposal at hand.

MICHA KOBI, FMR. HEAD OF INTERROGATION DEPT., SHIN BET: Look, thank you very much. And that's exactly what I think about Yahya Sinwar. I was

interrogated with him for more than 180 hours. I know him better than his father and mother, I think. Yahya Sinwar -- he was the student of Ahmad

Yassin, the leader of the Hamas.


He whispered to his ear, he was an advisor, and he was nominated by him to be the main officer of killing all the men that he suspected that they are

cooperating with the Israelis. And also he was responsible for the schools and the kindergarten of the Hamas, you know, in Gaza Strip. Yahya Sinwar

killed 12 people, not four people, as you say, 12 people in Gaza Strip. The name that the Gaza, you know, citizen gave him was the Butcher of Khan

Younis because he killed ordinary people.

I can assure you that nobody of them was cooperating with the Israelis. You know, the first time that I met him, I saw a man with murder eyes. You

know, he was believed at the convention of the Hamas 100 percent, the same like Ahmad Yassin told him to do.

You know, he was believed that the Israelis must be killed, must be, you know, thrown into the sea. He hate the Israelis, he hate the Jews, he hate

the infidels, all of them, not only the Israeli Jews. You know, Yahya Sinwar were working exactly according to the Mein Kampf, you know, book

that was found in his house.

You know, I found it was translated to Arabic. The same principles in the book was at the Hamas convention. You know, Yahya Sinwar was a really cruel

man. He hate us so much, so he want to kill the Israelis by machete, you know, by himself, the same that he did to the 12 people. You know, he

described to us exactly how we killed one by one, how we cut his head, how we cut and, you know, he prepared a grave to one of them with his brother

and he put him inside the grave when he was alive and put soil until he was dead. That is Yahya Sinwar.

ASHER: And Micha, one of the things that I want to talk about as we sort of are focused on, you know, the ceasefire and perhaps, you know, at some

point ending this war. One of the questions I have for you is really when you look at the death toll, right, roughly around, obviously we don't have

exact numbers, but roughly potentially around 36,000 Palestinians and Yahya Sinwar essentially has it in his power to put an end to this war, at least

temporarily, but he is not choosing to.

A lot of people point to the fact that they believe that Yahya Sinwar essentially hates Israel. He hates Israel much more than he cares about the

Palestinian people. That is what many people believe. So, based on that, how much is a continuation of this war -- how much does a continuation of

this war work in Yahya Sinwar's political favor?

KOBI: Look, unfortunately, this war will continue, I think, at least one more or two years, one or two years, unfortunately, you know, because they

are deep in the tunnels, you know. We cannot go inside all the tunnels because of the, you know, the people that were kidnapped from the

settlement. We don't want to kill them, and, you know, it's very dangerous to get inside. That's the reason, you know, that it will take time.

Yahya Sinwar don't want any kind of negotiation. Yahya Sinwar only grinding water, you know. He just try to confuse the whole world, the American, the

Israeli, the Catholic, and the Egyptian, you know. He said that he don't want any kind of negotiation, and he mean that. And I know his character.

He mean that.

Yahya Sinwar believe that he is the hero of the Islam, the hero of the Hamas. He want to be like Salah al-Din al-Ayubi that was, you know, 1400

years ago. That is Yahya Sinwar. He would never surrounded. He would never escape. He prefer to be a Shahid than to be, you know, than to escape. And

he really want to survive. He want to survive.

He want the world to stop Israel fighting. That's what he want. He want to continue to rule in Gaza Strip. We would never give him that opportunity,

you know. We would never give him that chance to stay in Gaza. We have, as Israelis, to destroy that organization. It is a Nazi organization.


I know them, you know, one by one, not only Yahya Sinwar. I know him when he was in the prison. There is a lot of stories, very sensitive stories

from the period of time that he was in prison. Many, many things.

GOLODRYGA: Micha, yeah, unfortunately, we are running out of time, but it is really disconcerting and jarring to hear your views that this war,

according to Yahya Sinwar, can go on for another year or two, despite the however many casualties and the toll will be, now we're already into the

tens of thousands. But it is really important to get your insights here, given that you are one of the few people that has spent so much time with

him. Thank you so much. We appreciate you joining us.

KOBI: I would like to add one sentence. Excuse me, I would like to add one sentence.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, quickly.

KOBI: One sentence, very quickly. Look, the Egyptian and Qatar state can solve the problem between us and about the hostages in 10 minutes. If the

Qatari will throw out all the Hamas leaders from Qatar, and if the Egyptian will close the border and tell him, look, there is no entrance and no going

on from the entrance of Rafah, they can solve it in 10 minutes.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, there had been reports that the U.S. was pushing more pressure on that specific angle. Micha Kobi, thank you so much. And we'll

be right back.


ASHER: All right. After a long legal battle, Chiquita Brands is being ordered to pay more than $38 million to the families of victims killed by a

terrorist group that Chiquita essentially funded. For its part, the banana producer has insisted its Colombian business only made the payments out of

fear that its employees would be harmed. Stefano Pozzebon is watching all of this from Bogota. Stefano, what more can you tell us?

STEFANO POZZEBON, JOURNALIST: Well, Zain, this is a ground-breaking case of international litigation. One of the attorneys that successfully won the

argument in Florida on Monday was telling me just yesterday, they believe that this is the first time that a U.S. federal court holds a major U.S.

company liable and accountable for participating in crime and human rights abuses in a foreign country. And here in Colombia, where I am, this ruling

already had an immediate impact.

The name of Chiquita and the United Fruit Company, which is how the company was called in the 20th century, is infamous for their role in repressing

workers' rights in Colombia. The President, Gustavo Petro, celebrated the ruling on Monday night on Twitter, and right now thousands of victims of

the AUC are coming forward because they want their voices to be heard and because they believe they're also due some compensation.


About the AUC, about that group, this is a group that really has their name linked to some of the darkest and most tragic pages in the history of

Colombia. They really terrorized the Caribbean coast of the country between 1997 and 2004. And this is how one of the attorneys that represented the

victims described them in a press conference yesterday in Washington.


organization. It was widely known to be engaged in massacres and violence against civilian communities in and around the banana zones where Chiquita

was operating.

This was not a secret. This was in the "International Press". This was in "The Economist". This was in "The New York Times". Anyone with access to a

newspaper would know that the AUC was engaged in these activities against civilians. However, Chiquita decided to do business with them.

ASHER: All right, Stefano Pozzebon. Thank you so much. Go ahead quickly, Stefano. All right, thank you, Stefano, if you can hear me. All right, as

children, they survived the Sandy Hook school massacre. Now, as high school graduates, they're honoring the 20 classmates who won't get to walk the

stage with them. We'll have details ahead.


GOLODRYGA: The survivors of the Sandy Hook Elementary Hook massacre are graduating from high school. You can believe that, just so many years have

passed by already. The joyous occasion accompanied by a reminder of their loss. There's been more than 11 years since 20 of their classmates were

gunned down along with six adults.

CNN's Brynn Gingrass joins us now. Brynn, obviously, a day to celebrate for schools across the country. Things are a bit different here for these

students, obviously reflecting on those who are not there with them.

BRYNN GINGRASS, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, exactly, Bianna. The word that we've heard in Newtown a bunch today is, it's bittersweet.

This is obviously a huge milestone, a celebration for these graduates of high school, but they do realize and recognize the fact that they are

missing 20 of their classmates.

In addition, if you remember, six educators died on that day almost 12 years ago. I want you to hear from some of these graduates who were in

Sandy Hook Elementary as first graders, lost some of their fellow classmates, and are remembering them especially today.



LILY WASILNAK, GRADUATING SENIORS: We are still kids, so we do as much as we can to enjoy ourselves and still live our lives while still carrying the

memory of those we lost with us.

ELLA SEAVER, GRADUATING SENIOR: It's hard, because you have these big moments in your life, things that are supposed to be solely exciting. But

they get clouded by this. And a way that we want to be remembering our friends, and we are going to keep them with us, but it's also something

that we wish we never had to deal with.

MATT HOLDEN, GRADUATING SENIOR: Compared to some of our classmates who didn't go to Sandy Hook, our memories of elementary school are really

empty, blocked out, massive parts of it are gone. But it is still graduation, and it is still an exciting day, and we're trying to make sure

we put that feeling first. We don't want to make this into a memorial. It is ultimately what should be the biggest day of most of our lives.


GINGRASS: And Bianna, Zain, the graduation later this afternoon, they're going to wear green ribbons on their gowns, they're going to have the names

read, a moment of silence. So, these people who were lost will be remembered, and really quickly, these people's lives have changed. They say

they want to be therapists, politicians, lawyers. They want to change the course of what happened to them.

GOLODRYGA: Unbelievable, and obviously these people will be, these graduates will be remembering their fellow classmates for the rest of their

lives. Thank you so much.

ASHER: All right, that does it for this hour of "ONE WORLD". I'm Zain Asher, along with Bianna Golodryga. Appreciate you watching. "AMANPOUR" is

up next.