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One World with Zain Asher
Kenyan Government Orders Protesters To Get Off The Streets; Gaza's Entire Population At Risk Of Famine; Some Democrats are Urging Biden Not To Talk Too Much About His Political Successes; Immigration Becomes Number One Concern Of Many U.S. Voters. Aired 12-1p ET
Aired June 25, 2024 - 12:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:00:43]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, hello everyone. Live from New York, I'm Bianna Golodryga. Zain is off today. You are watching ONE WORLD.
It is 7 P.M. right now in Nairobi. And after a day of protests against proposed new taxes led to widespread violence and chaos -- a Kenyan
government deadline for protesters to get off the streets ended about a half hour ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA (voice-over): Now, earlier, protesters stormed the parliament building where lawmakers have been considering a new finance bill that
contains several tax hikes. Here you see a trail of destruction inside the dining area of the building. Elsewhere in Nairobi, City Hall was set on
fire.
UNKNOWN: Ruto must go! Ruto must go!
GOLODRYGA (voice-over): Police used tear gas and water cannon on protesters, as well as live ammunition. A joint statement from four groups,
including Amnesty International, Kenya, and the Kenya Medical Association, says at least five people were shot dead and 31 people were injured in the
protests, some with rubber bullets.
The Red Cross says its vehicles were attacked and volunteers and staff were injured during the demonstrations. Our Larry Madowo is at the scene in
Nairobi and joins us now live. Larry, you've been covering some incredible scenes there all day for us.
You can see the devastation there and the destruction left behind from the day of protests. It looks like the crowd has started to disperse. You said
some protesters are starting to go home now. But walk us through the events that unfolded today.
LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bianna, it's now 30 minutes since the government ordered the people on the streets to go home. 6:30 was the
deadline for them to clear the streets. We still heard some tear gas canisters being shot in the air a few minutes ago. Many of them appear to
have cleared out, at least from this part of the capital, Nairobi.
But we now can have a look at the aftermath of the day of protests. It's been an extraordinary day of violence and devastation and destruction
across the city. And we want to look at this Carrefour market. This is a store just outside Kenya's Supreme Court. And you see on the floor strewn
here this product of every kind. Sanitary pads, we've got bread, we've got flour, we've got clothes, we've got detergent. All there.
As police kind of stay watch here. They've been here all day. We've got even -- that's chocolate there, biscuits. The amount of product here. The
manager of the store tells us that the protesters breached the wall, they broke down the glass and the shutters and went right through. And the
police are still here, standing guard to make sure the protesters don't come back.
Their stated objective today was to try and occupy Parliament as part of what is called seven days of rage, today was supposed to be a total
shutdown. But police did not allow them to occupy Parliament for long, even though they did breach the wall of Parliament and make it inside the house
and even took away the mace from the floor of the house.
As that was happening, we saw police use live rounds against mostly peaceful protesters who were only armed with banners and they were armed
with flags. They were singing the national anthem. And after that we saw at least two bodies lying on the ground outside Parliament. One of them, a
young man, harrowing scene with his brain splattered on the floor. Just the sign of how quickly these protests escalated.
And also the criticism here, the heavy-handed, overly militarized police response to a largely peaceful protest. And I think the sign of that is we
were talking earlier in the day to Alma Obama. She's the half-sister of former U.S. President Barack Obama.
And while we were live on CNN, we were tear gassed repeatedly. We had to take a break. She had to take a moment to take a breath and say she was
only here to support these young people who've been complaining about over taxation by the government of President William Ruto. And they have come
out on the streets to let their voices heard.
She said they didn't need to be responded to in this violent way. But after the end of the day, we saw at least three different buildings on fire.
Uganda House down this block. We saw City Hall right next to us. And at least parts of Parliament that were on fire for parts of this afternoon,
Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: So, what happens next, Larry, after this day of protest, after the violence that ensued, after at times really heavy-handedness by the
police there and the military, some of it captured by yourself as some of these protesters were arrested.
[12:05:06]
You noted many of them were just helping others there. What's to be expected come tomorrow? And what does this say about the future of this
legislation?
MADOWO: The legislation, one, the finance bill will still likely pass because President William Ruto's party has the majority in the National
Assembly and the Senate, so they can push through any kind of legislation that his government proposes. But the second part is what happens.
I think the level of anger on the streets today has been unprecedented and shocking to so many people, including myself. I knew that a lot of young
people were going to come out today, but I didn't think that there would be that many, and two, that they would be responded to in such a violent
manner. I think this has made a statement to the government of President William Ruto.
He's not said anything yet. The Interior Minister has not said anything yet. But when he does respond, I'm sure a lot of young people will be
trying to hear and pass through the statement to see if he really hears them when they say that life has become too expensive for them, the cost of
living has gone out of control, and especially their sense of disillusionment.
President William Ruto was elected by many young people who voted for him because he said he was a hustler in chief. He understood hustlers, and he
was coming into power to look after them. They feel that he's turned his back on them, on trips constantly, international trips with large
delegations, renovating statehouse, renovating the deputy president's official residence, while he keeps telling them that they have to tighten
their belts.
GOLODRYGA: And he promised to be a champion for the welfare of the poor there in the country. I want to specifically stick with the constituency of
the youth population there, because looking at the statistics, 18 to 34- year-olds make up a quarter of the population in the country. Under 15 make up 43 percent.
So, this is a bit younger than those who are demonstrating today. You said you've interviewed people as young as 18. But given the trajectory that
these protests are headed and given the frustration and the abandonment that many of them have expressed to you, how much trouble is the president
and his government under right now from this very crucial electorate?
MADOWO: President William Ruto and his government cannot ignore what we've seen on the streets today, because it's been not just in Nairobi but
nationwide, including from his own backyard in Eldoret, in other parts of the country, in Nyeri, in Kisumu, in Mombasa.
People across the country, young people especially, have come out to say, you have to do something. Reject the finance bill. Don't just amend it,
reject it in totality, because if it were to pass, we can't afford to live in this country. And that's why he has to be careful in his analysis and
his response to this, because I don't think this is about to die down anytime soon.
The protests were called for today, on Tuesday for a total shutdown, and on Thursday that said they will try and occupy a statehouse. And after the
anger we've seen today, already on social media you see people angry about the deaths of these people, Amnesty International saying at least five
people have been killed today.
This will just offer renewed vigor to so many other young people who say they're willing to come out on the streets and die, because there's a
famous Kenyan saying from a freedom fighter who said we'd rather die on our feet than to live on our knees. And many young people have been using that
dead and came out with a quote in this past few weeks in response to the situation, the anger and the frustration they feel.
GOLODRYGA: And this turmoil happening in a country that's been known to be relatively stable and a very unstable part of the continent there. We'll be
keeping a close eye on the events that unfold through the night and obviously through tomorrow. Larry Madowo, thank you so much for your
incredible reporting.
Let's stick more with this subject and bring in CNN's Victoria Rubadiri, who joins us now on the phone from Nairobi. Victoria, this contentious bill
was introduced by the President in May. Obviously, he's got a really troubled economy, a lot of debt, about $80 billion in debt that he has to
address.
That being said, given the reforms and already the cutbacks that we've seen to this bill, some of the taxation lifted, do you sense that this bill will
still go forward, given what -- I know that he has the majority -- but given what the President has seen unfold in the country today, what does
that tell you about the future of this bill?
VICTORIA RUBIDIRI, CNN ANCHOR (on the phone): The hope is that this pressure from the protests would change or turn the President hard, if you
will. But knowing the pressure that he is under from organizations like the IMF or World Bank to ensure that they raise enough from taxes to be able to
manage debt payments, it is unlikely that the President would turn back on the decision to pass this bill. He has until Thursday to sign it into law.
If he doesn't, it goes back to Parliament for more deliberation, but it's likely that it will go through.
[12:10:01]
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, and we should note last week, as we mentioned, some of the more controversial elements of this bill and taxations were lifted and
scrapped, including taxes on bread, cooking oil, and cars, but that was clearly not enough for these protesters. It seems that there are other
issues that are really underlying the sense of frustration here with the government. Perhaps it's corruption. Perhaps it's not addressing some of
their economic needs as quickly as possible.
RUBIDIRI (on the phone): Right. That has been a concern from many Kenyans. Looking at, for instance, government spending, they feel there's too much
excess there. You look at some of the line items in the budget, some unconstitutional offices getting money for, you know, projects that they
feel are not critical to the country's running.
Renovations, for instance, to the deputy president's office and home running into $9 million. So, Kenyans are asking why can't we cut back on
some of these expenditures and channel that money to paying back the debt as opposed to putting that burden in terms of taxation on Kenyans who are
already really burdened by the high cost of living in the country.
GOLODRYGA: As we heard there, we've seen a lot from Larry and others that the big presence in the turnout appears to be among the youth in particular
in Nairobi there. And as Larry has been reporting, a lot of them have been influenced and driven by what they've seen on social media, TikTok in
particular as a rallying cry to come out to the streets. What is the status of internet access and service right now?
RUBIDIRI (on the phone): Internet has been slow for the later part of the day. Some people complaining that they can't access platforms like X, for
instance, which of course has been huge in mobilizing the young people to get out to the streets.
But you're still seeing quite a few of them corresponding on other platforms like WhatsApp, Facebook, Instagram. But we've seen a slow speed
when it comes to internet here. Not an entire shutdown. There was a fear that would happen in the course of the day, but we'll be watching and
monitoring the situation.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, the curfew, as we noted, was set for 6:30. These are scenes that you're seeing from earlier in the day. The sun has already set
in Nairobi tonight where it is 12 past seven. And as we've seen from Larry's live reporting, it did appear that the crowd had dispersed a bit, a
heavy military presence behind him. But obviously we're going to continue to cover and monitor the situation throughout the day and the hour.
Victoria Rubidiri, thank you so much.
All right, still to come for us, the plight of children in Gaza. Shocking living conditions coupled with polluted water and an absence of food, all
adding up to acute malnutrition. We'll go live to Jerusalem when we return.
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GOLODRYGA: All right, welcome back. Israel is keeping up its airstrikes on parts of Gaza. Health officials in the Palestinian enclave say at least two
dozen people were killed in three separate airstrikes on Gaza City early Tuesday. A sister of Hamas political leader Ismail Haniyeh was among those
killed. Two schools were hit with the loss of at least 14 lives. This Palestinian man pleading for the violence to end.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SALEH-AL FAYOUMI, GAZA RESIDENT (through translator): It is a shame what is happening to the Palestinian people. Wherever we go, there are strikes.
This is a shame. There are strikes everywhere. Give us a safe place and have mercy on us for the sake of God. Have mercy on us. We are poor people.
Every day there are martyrs and there are wounded. You either lose a friend or you lose a brother or a cousin or you lose a neighbor. This is not a
life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Also this, a new alarming report on conditions inside Gaza says virtually the entire population is at risk of famine. The study by the
integrated food security phase classification forecasts severe levels of food insecurity through the end of summer. It says a high risk of famine
persists across all of Gaza and can only be addressed if the fighting stops and humanitarian groups get sustained access. As CNN's Paula Hancock
reports, Gaza's children are the ones bearing most of the brunt here. And we want to warn you, her report contains disturbing images.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Amal, meaning hope, was born two months premature. She died after just four days, her family says,
a baby born into war in northern Gaza. It's a result of her early birth, the head of pediatrics says, which is a result of malnutrition and
starvation of her mother. This is the fourth child that's died in this department this week.
Amal's father says they were displaced with no shelter, food or water. A real starvation, he says. My girl died because of this. Hospitals across
Gaza are full of malnutrition cases, doctors say. Needing special care that simply does not exist.
Younis is nine years old. His mother takes off his T-shirt to show the painful evidence of malnutrition and extreme dehydration. She says he was
healthy until they were displaced multiple times, from northern Gaza to Rafah, to a beach area where she says they don't even have a tent. Food was
no longer available, his mother says. There were bad living conditions and polluted water. "I'm losing my son in front of my eyes."
More than 50,000 children require treatment for acute malnutrition, according to the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA. Eight months
of war have decimated the health system, water sanitation and food distribution. Clean water has become a luxury many struggle to access. The
IDF says there is enough aid in Gaza, but distribution is the problem.
JAMES ELDER, UNICEF: It's not just about getting it in, and there's far too little coming in. That's why we have an unprecedented nutrition crisis
for the youngest children in Gaza. It's about a safe place, an enabling way to deliver that aid.
HANCOCKS (voice-over): Aid groups say lawlessness on the ground is making their job of delivering aid to those who need it increasingly dangerous.
Dr. Sharif Mattar (ph) says he's seen around 120 children on this one day at the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital. He estimates up to 20 percent of them were
suffering from malnutrition. Diarrhea, inflammation, infections are prevalent, he says, caused by lack of sanitation or clean water.
This boy's one and a half, he says. He weighs less than six kilograms. There's no subcutaneous fat. His body is effectively eating itself. The
United Nations has already warned one million Palestinians will be at risk of starvation and death by mid-July. That is just weeks away. As with
everything in this war, it is the young who bear the brunt.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HANCOCKS (on-camera): Now, the IPC report also said that in the north of Gaza things had slightly improved because they were able to get food aid in
in March and April.
[12:20:01]
The World Food Programme says that they agree with that and says it shows just how things can improve if they are able to have the access to get the
humanitarian aid in. Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: And more news here that is a bit disturbing, for lack of a better word, for Prime Minister Netanyahu, Israel's Supreme Court ruled
today that the military must begin drafting ultra-Orthodox Jewish men. How is this impacting him?
HANCOCKS: Well, this is putting more pressure, Bianna, on the Israeli Prime Minister. So, this was a unanimous decision by the Israeli Supreme
Court, saying that the ultra-Orthodox, the Haredi, should be conscripted. They should be part of the mandatory military service in this country.
It's difficult for the Israeli Prime Minister because it means that two of the Haredi ultra-Orthodox parties, which are part of his ruling coalition,
may decide to leave the coalition. And they're certainly not going to be happy with today's ruling. So, that does put more pressure on the Prime
Minister trying to stay in power.
Now, the Supreme Court also said that any of the religious schools who do not -- who have students within their schools that do not agree to respect
the draft notices, will then lose funding as well, this according to the Supreme Court. So, it really is putting pressure on a situation that has
been brewing for years.
The Haredi have had this exemption, effectively, since the founding of Israel, since 1948. But all recent polls show that the majority of Israelis
do believe that everybody should be part of the mandatory military service and that this exemption should no longer exist. Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: The Haredi population is among the fastest growing in Israel, and this at a time when there are concerns about not one but possibly two
fronts opening up. In the north, obviously, all eyes are on the fighting with Hezbollah and the continued fighting there in Gaza. Paula Hancocks,
thank you.
Well, no U.S. prison time for Julian Assange. The controversial WikiLeaks founder is out of a U.K. jail and on his way home to Australia. This all
comes after he reached a plea agreement with the U.S. Justice Department, agreeing to plead guilty to a felony charge over his role in obtaining and
publishing U.S.-classified military documents. It ends his 12-year battle against extradition to the U.S. Assange's wife, Stella, has been speaking
to CNN about his release.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STELLA ASSANGE, WIFE OF JULIAN ASSANGE: When we met, he was under house arrest. It will be the first time that I get to see him as a fully free
man. And I was just, when I was speaking to him, I said, well, you know, we can walk, go for a walk, and there will be no restrictions, no curfew.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: But Julian Assange still has to make a court appearance in a remote U.S. territory in the Pacific. For his part, Australia's prime
minister says it's time to end this drama.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY ALBANESE, AUSTRAILIAN PRIME MINISTER: Regardless of the views that people have about Mr. Assange's activities, the case has dragged on for too
long. There's nothing to be gained by his continued incarceration, and we want him brought home to Australia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: All right, we continue to follow breaking news out of Kenya. Protests over taxes turning violent. We'll take a look at the tax hike that
sparked the unrest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:27:03]
GOLODRYGA: All right, welcome back to ONE WORLD. I'm Bianna Golodryga. We continue to follow breaking news out of Kenya. Protests over planned tax
hikes have turned deadly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Ruto must go! Ruto must go!
GOLODRYGA (voice-over): There are at least five people have been shot dead, as you hear the gunshots there in that video. Many more are injured.
Protesters breached the parliament complex, and parts of the building caught fire. Take a look at the black smoke billowing from the parliament
building from earlier today. Local media says lawmakers got out via an underground passage.
Earlier, they passed a bill to raise taxes, the issue that sparked the protests days ago. Many Kenyans already reeling from a cost-of-living
crisis, reacting furiously. Police used tear gas to try to disperse the crowd, and among those participating in the protests, the half-sister of
former U.S. President Barack Obama.
AUMA OBAMA, ACTIVIST, HALF SISTER OF U.S. PRESIDENET BARACK OBAMA: I'm here because, look at what's happening. Young Kenyans are demonstrating for
their rights. They're demonstrating with flags and banners. I can't even see anymore. They're being tear-gassed. They're being tear-gassed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: We want to take a look at the bill at the center of the protests. Joining me now is financial economist Reginald Kadzutu. Reginald,
thank you so much for joining us. So, just explain this bill at hand, given the economic situation the country is facing, in particular the $80 billion
of debt that President Ruto had vowed to address. Was this bill necessary?
REGINALD KADZUTU, FINANCIAL ECONOMIST: Thank you. I think the bill is a combination of what started from last year when the President alerted the
country that he has to increase taxes for the government to be able to pay debt. Historically, they have mostly looked at taxes that normally touch on
income, so pay-as-you-earn, corporate tax, or Sintech.
But they have never gone down to the depth they have gone down in this bill, where they went into the indirect taxes, so changing the VAT schedule
to start touching on basic commodities like bread, diapers, cancer treatment, women's sanitary pads.
So, the original draft of the bill had VAT on those things. That means the cost of those things went up, as a clear signal that the government was
going to go for indirect taxes or consumption taxes, irregardless of your level of income.
There were protests last week that made people go into the streets. The government backed down a bit, but in the government backing down, they
snuck in a 39% increase in the road levy, which meant that the road levy per liter of fuel sold increased to 25 shillings per liter.
[12:30:07]
Now, in a country like Kenya, if you increase the price of fuel, that means the price of goods goes up because the goods have to move from factory to
shop, from farm to shop. The price of transport goes up. Most people use public transport on petrol-driven or diesel-driven vehicles. Most
industries in the country use diesel for generators.
So, they removed some things which people felt like were smokescreens to sneak in even more deadlier tax into this finance bill. And people are also
concerned because then the finance bill of what they're trying to raise the revenue for, and if you look at the appropriations bill and where they want
to spend the money, there's nothing really that is developmental-focused, and there's nothing really that shows that this money is actually going to
good use.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, and as we noted, parts of this bill had already been amended following some of the outrage and protests that we'd seen last
week, in particular taxes on bread, cooking oil, and cars. Clearly, that wasn't enough. Is there a way to continue amending this bill that, A, would
address the financial crisis and issues regarding the debt in the country, but also alleviate some of this increased tension that we're seeing among
the population there and make it more palatable for them?
KADZUTU: I think the bill reads off in coping terms on the drafters of the bill initially. People are asking what kind of mind would even put that in
the initial bill in the first place. Then if you look at the bill and you look at the current situation the country is in, the country this year
alone has to pay close to 1.8 trillion shillings in debt service or debt repayment against ordinary revenue target of around 2.4, 2.5.
That means literally close to 60, 70 percent of the revenue collected is going to pay debts. The problem with Kenya Kwanzaa or the Ruto's
government, when they came in, they chest-thumped and said, we will pay our debts, we will never default. And against advice that some of us gave them
to say, go on the table with your creditors and negotiate a more palatable payment plan, lengthen the period of the debt.
Because if you don't, you have no capacity to pay this debt in its current form and structure. Or if you insist on paying it in the current form and
structure, you will either have to borrow more, which is what they're doing, borrowing from the IMF, World Bank, Eurobond market, they went back
to Eurobond market in February.
So, they're borrowing from John to pay Peter and kicking the can down the road. So, the Kenya government needs to reach a point and say, there's no
way we can develop. There is no way we can implement policies.
Because the role of the government is not to grow the economy. The role of the government is to create policies that make the private sector to be
able to thrive. When the private sector thrives, then they employ people. And the more people who come into employment, the wider your tax base is.
But you don't widen a tax base by going to start taxing basic things like bread and sanitary pads.
So, if they can go on the table with creditors and say, we are not able to pay this debt in its form, we want to pay, can we reschedule? Can we
lengthen the tenure? Can we reduce the interest that is on these debts, both domestic and external, to allow us leg room to implement policies that
will actually grow incomes.
And as we grow incomes, we grow aggregate demand. As we grow aggregate demand, we'll generate enough revenue to be able to comfortably pay without
mortgaging the country for the next five, seven years if they try to pay it the way they want to pay right now.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, it may seem that the government and this president may not only have to go back to the table with its creditors, but also with its
citizens. I mean, this is a man who said that he was one with the people, that he was the hustler-in-chief, and he was primarily focused on
alleviating their concerns and issues and poverty.
And yet there seems to be a lack of awareness here and sort of being out of touch with how these policies are being reacted to given the images that
we're seeing on the ground. It would be interesting to see if the president does address the population in the days to come. Reginald Kadzutu, thank
you so much for your time.
KADZUTU: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: And on a separate note, a source tells CNN that a Kenyan police contingent has already arrived in Haiti. At least 200 security personnel
and about 12 high-level Kenyan officials, including the national security advisor, are now in Port-au-Prince, according to the source. The Kenyan-led
multinational force was requested by Haiti to deal with out-of-control gang violence leading to a breakdown of order. The U.N. then authorized the
force last year.
Well, still to come for us, what fellow Democrats are now telling Joe Biden to do in his first instance leading to a breakdown of order? The U.N. then
authorized the force last year.
[12:35:03]
Well, still to come for us, what fellow Democrats are now telling Joe Biden to do in his first debate with Donald Trump? The do's and don'ts in just a
moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:37:53]
GOLODRYGA: Well, we are just two days now from the first debate between Donald Trump and Joe Biden right here on CNN. Analysts say it could be as
much about style as it is about substance because voters seem more concerned about Biden's age and Trump's temperament than they are about
specific issues. Biden's team says their candidate will be ready.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: When there is an opportunity for this President to speak to millions of Americans, he shows
up, and he meets the moment. So, obviously, the President's going to look forward to Thursday doing just that, laying out what he normally does, what
he's done the last three and a half years, how he's going to continue to build on the economy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: CNN has learned that some Democrats are urging Biden not to talk too much about his political successes but rather to go after Trump
for what they say are dangerous economic policies. Joining us now is a former lieutenant governor of Georgia, Republican Geoff Duncan.
Geoff is one of the few Republican politicians who has said he is backing President Biden over Donald Trump because he sees Trump as unfit for the
presidency. He is also a CNN political analyst. Welcome to the program. So listen, the first debate typically is not a favorable one for the
incumbents. Both of these two men are arriving to Thursday's debate a bit rusty. It's been a while since they've been in a format like this, Geoff.
And given the fact that both men are older, let's just leave it there, you say among the three issues that President Biden specifically needs to
address, number one is the age issue, to put it to rest once and for all. Didn't he do that with the State of the Union, if that's the argument
you're going to make? Because there are still quite a few months left before the election itself -- does one good night really change the
trajectory in terms of this specific issue?
GEOFF DUNCAN, FORMER GEORGIA LT. GOVERNOR: Well, Donald Trump historically sets the bar so low for Joe Biden that when he shows up on stage, I think a
majority of folks watching on both sides of the aisle are actually even surprised. You know, he's got a heartbeat and answers the questions.
[12:40:02]
But I think the reality is Joe Biden has done well in these debates in the past. And yes, he did do well in the State of the Union address, which that
was four months ago. So, I think America is looking for us to, everyone wants to kind of just see his mental and physical capabilities. But also
there's a number of folks watching Donald Trump here. I mean, neither one of these, as I say in my op-ed, are young spry chickens. Donald Trump is
well up there in age too.
So, look, there's a lot here to be tested. But certainly, Joe Biden has shown in the past that he rises to the occasion in these moments. And that
will really take a big talking point from Donald Trump and his largest supporters out if Joe Biden is able to walk through this. I also think
another part of this vitality question is composure. Who's going to be able to be the adult in the room at the end of this? Because that ultimately is
what speaks to the 10 percent in the middle that are still somewhat persuadable.
There's both camps are locked in with who their bases are. But if this 10 percent in the middle is watching to see does somebody have enough
composure to be an adult? I think they're certainly going to take score.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, the other two things you say the President needs to accomplish tonight in your op-ed for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution is
that he should speak to all economic realities and remind the country of the embarrassing tumult of the Trump presidency.
Let's talk about the setting there and the fact that it's taking place in a rather new swing state, that being Georgia. Right now, it does appear that
Trump has the advantage. A Quinnipiac poll from May shows that he has a five-point lead here.
That is something that Team Biden says that they can close. They can close that gap. They've successfully had two Democrats put into office there as
serving in the Senate. And then you have a very popular, however, Republican governor there. So, who ultimately has the advantage?
DUNCAN: Well, I think no matter how you look at this race, it's close. I do think, statistically speaking today, Donald Trump probably does have a
slight advantage. But look, there's a lot of time to go. And Donald Trump being Donald Trump is always a variable. I mean, I think he's going to
continue to step on landmines and continue to have gaffes just because it's his nature.
I also think this crowd that has continued to show up in these primaries across the country, these Nikki Haley voters, like myself, 15, 18, 20
percent. I don't know where they're showing up in this polling, right? Is it that they're just kind of staying away from the polling and planning to
stay on the couch? I think a lot of this effort by the Biden campaign between now and November is going to be about trying to get those people
motivated to get up off the couch and do something, right?
I speak a lot about a GOP 2.0. I mean, I even wrote a book about it, where it's a better pathway forward for the Republican Party. And I just
genuinely believe there's no pathway forward worth-chasing that has Donald Trump included in it as a Republican. And so, me and probably millions of
other Republicans are willing to vote for Joe Biden so we can move quickly past Donald Trump and the nightmare that has surrounded him.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, nearly 80,000 Georgians voted for Nikki Haley. It will be interesting to see where they go following not only this debate, but
obviously ultimately come November. Is the biggest wild card here where the governor, Governor Brian Kemp ends up clearly not a friend of former
President Trump's -- he did not go along with his baseless claims of a stolen election after 2020.
I believe the men haven't spoken in a number of years here. And some analysts say that Donald Trump, quite frankly, needs Kemp more than the
other way around. Where do you see the governor factoring in here?
DUNCAN: Well, Governor Kemp has certainly done a great job leading our state for now almost six years. And I certainly was grateful to be along
his side for four of those six years, leading through some very difficult times. COVID and the economic whiplashes and, of course, the election
fallout.
You know, it's interesting to see how poorly Donald Trump has treated us here in Georgia. I mean, his really first big pushback on us was how we
handled the pandemic. We were trying to get our small businesses open as quickly as possible. And he pushed back and called us reckless and a whole
bunch of other host of words.
And then, of course, he lied about our election. So, I think there's a disconnect between Donald Trump and hardcore Republicans or level-headed
Republicans is probably a better way to put it here in Georgia. I still think there's this audience in the middle that is persuadable.
It really enjoys the lifestyle that Georgians get to enjoy, the economy that we get to, the growth, the education, the crime. All of that is a
very, very strong tailwind. And it truly is an example of what conservative values can do. But I certainly think Donald Trump is not locked in stone as
winning the great state of Georgia.
GOLODRYGA: All right, CNN Political Commentator Geoff Duncan joining us from, as you said, the great state of Georgia, where all eyes -- millions
of eyes --the world's eyes will be, come Thursday night. Thank you.
And tune in to see the CNN Presidential Debate right here on CNN coming up June 27th at 9 P.M. Eastern. We'll also replay the debate in its entirety a
few different times for you. You can watch it at 7 A.M. London time, that is 2 P.M. in Hong Kong, or 12 hours later, 7 P.M. in London or 10 P.M. in
Abu Dhabi.
[12:45:08]
Well, for many voters in the U.S., immigration is their number one concern. A Native American community on the U.S.-Mexican border is struggling with
sympathy for migrants and a desire to help, while at the same time concerned over what they say is rising crime. CNN's David Culver reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNKNOWN: From here up a mile, you're going to start to see a lot of debris, a lot of trash.
DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, what is all this?
UNKNOWN: This is the migrants. The migrants, because they're --
CULVER: They just leave all that. I see clothes. I see trash.
CULVER (voice-over): Tohono O'odham Nation sacred land is bearing the brunt of migration.
VERLON JOSE, TOHONO O'ODHAM NATION CHAIRMAN: Your heart feels for the migrants and so forth like that, but then the other part says, look at the
destruction that they're causing us. Look at the trash that they're leaving.
CULVER (voice-over): About 30 miles west of Tucson, Arizona, the reservation essentially straddles the U.S. southern border, which is marked
by a simple cattle fence.
JOSE: This is the San Miguel Gate, the traditional crossing.
CULVER (voice-over): The tribe's chairman, Verlon Jose, says a border wall here would ruin their traditional land.
JOSE: This is where the Creator had put us.
CULVER: You don't see a boundary.
JOSE: We don't see a boundary.
CULVER (voice-over): But migrants do, and so do cartels, which use the Tohono O'odham's land as a profitable crossing ground.
JOSE: There's an area right up here where they just turn around, drop them off, tell them just go across there.
CULVER (voice-over): We see that for ourselves.
CULVER: Oh, look, crossing right here.
JOSE: Look at your camera.
CULVER: You see this right there, straight ahead.
JOSE: Where's your camera? Get down and film it.
CULVER: To request asylum. They're from Mexico.
CULVER (voice-over): Dropped off with her three kids, Norma says she was told to walk towards a makeshift camp. Even in the scorching desert heat,
she believes where she's headed will be better than what she's left behind.
CULVER: She works for a political party directly in Mexico, and she says her political party lost. She said the surge in violence and danger is so
much so that she and her -- her kids have decided to now cross into the U.S. So, the tribe allowed Border Patrol to set up a structure for the
folks who do come over until they're processed.
CULVER (voice-over): Everyone we meet here, mostly families from the same country. Even the chairman, intrigued with how they ended up in such a
remote part of the border.
CULVER: I asked him, that's the thing, I said, do you know where we are? She didn't even know. She has no idea where we are right now.
CULVER (voice-over): Chairman Jose believes cartels are behind it.
JOSE: It's a business. It's a business that doesn't play by the rules.
CULVER (voice-over): It's in part why the tribe coordinates with Customs and Border Protection, allowing them to set up substations on Tohono
O'odham land, along with several towers armed with far-reaching high- definition cameras.
CULVER: So, they're searching from the air as well as the ground here.
CULVER (voice-over): Border Patrol often deploying to stop threats or to rescue stranded migrants. Members of the tribe have noticed an increase in
violence and crime. Motivating some to turn to their Catholic faith. Prayers for safety and security echoed more than a thousand miles south of
tribal territory, in the outskirts of Mexico City.
It's here we again meet Norma, days after we watched her and her kids cross the border. It's really emotional for her, even being in front of the
Virgin of Guadalupe, and she carries this card with her, and her constant prayer to the Virgin was to protect her kids more than anything else.
CULVER (voice-over): Forty-eight hours after crossing into the U.S., Border Patrol sent Norma and her kids back to Mexico, just days after the
Biden administration took executive action on the border, allowing for a swift deportation of most migrants after a daily cap is reached.
CULVER: And it wasn't until they were physically at the border that she realized they were going to be sent back to Mexico.
CULVER (voice-over): The six-day journey cost Norma more than $8000 and ended where it started, back in the neighborhood where she still feels the
threats of political oppression.
CULVER: She says she feels okay going out right now because we're here and we're together, but she still feels the threats of political oppression.
[12:50:02]
She says she feels okay going out right now because we're here and we're together, but if she was by herself like normally, she would only go out on
Saturday, in the middle of the day. She says that her recommendation for others who may want to try to cross the way that she did is don't try it.
CULVER (voice-over): While Norma has no plans to cross again, back on Tohono O'odham land --
JOSE: Sometimes, I come up here by myself just when I need a little solitude.
CULVER (voice-over): Chairman Jose fears without Congress coming together across party lines, migrants and drugs will continue to cross his sacred
land.
JOSE: It has a major effect on us. We're not here to lay blame on who's -- who's responsible for this because I think we all are going to so whatever
it is to protect this land. Yeah, that's all I got. My blood, sweat and tears. I got nothing more.
CULVER (voice-over): David Culver, CNN, on Tohono O'odham Nation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: All right, well, Knoxville, Tennessee, is famous for country music crooner Dolly Parton and fireflies. CNN's Derek Van Dam shows us why
Dolly and the insects she sings about are so special.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEREK VAN DAM, CNN METEOROLOGIST (voice-over): Welcome to Knoxville, Tennessee, known as the cradle of country music, where country legends like
Dolly Parton got started and where she's still celebrated.
ROBIN EASTER, RHINESTONE FEST EVENT ORGANIZER: Dolly's part of the culture of Knoxville.
Knoxville loves Dolly, and they love everything Dolly. This is UT Ball Orange and Dolly. You could not be more Knoxville than this, really.
VAN DAM (voice-over): One reason she's so beloved, her songs capture everything that's special about Knoxville, including its fireflies.
(DOLLY PARTON PERFORMING)
VAN DAM (voice-over): The luminescent bugs are kind of a thing out here. It's one of the few places in the country where you can see synchronous
fireflies.
[12:55:01]
UNKNOWN: They start syncing up and flashing at the same time. They flash anywhere between 60 and 80 times a minute.
VAN DAM (voice-over): The synchronized light show is part of a firefly mating ritual. And deep in these woods, people come to experience the
natural phenomena. Recording the bugs on video can be challenging, so I did my best to grab a few snaps.
This is just so beautiful. It's almost like creating a line that goes all the way into the background. It makes you stop for a second and appreciate
what you got in front of you. I can feel it crawling up my face. I found true love. It's a perfect symphony of nature all coming together at the
same time. Pretty cool.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: A whole different side of Derek Van Dam. Wow, that was beautifully done. Well, that does it for this hour of ONE WORLD. Thanks so
much for watching. I'm Bianna Golodryga. "AMANPOUR" is up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
