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One World with Zain Asher
Biden Meets With Trump At The White House; Senate Republicans Elect John Thune As Majority Leader; Trump Moving Quickly To Fill Key Positions With Staunch Loyalists; Trump Picks Musk, Ramaswamy To Head "Department Of Government Efficiency"; Jan. 6 Rioters, Supporters Hopeful Of Trump Pardon Promise; Melania Trump Unlikely To Move Into White House Full-Time As First Lady. Aired 12-1p ET
Aired November 13, 2024 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:00:00]
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
ERICA HILL, CNN ACNHOR: Thanks for joining me. I'm Erica Hill coming to you live from New York. Zain and Bianna are off today. This is ONE WORLD.
U.S. President-elect Donald Trump is at the White House, of course, meeting Joe Biden. This part of his triumphal return to Washington, following that
victory on election day.
Despite some harsh words between the two during the last two campaigns, the former president, president-elect and the current president very cordial
with one another in the Oval Office.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Politics is tough. And it's, in many cases, not a very nice world, but it is a nice world today,
and I appreciate it very much. A transition that's so smooth, it'll be as smooth as it can get. And I very much appreciate it. Thank you.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You're welcome.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: Important to note, of course, that is not something that the former president afforded the current president four years ago.
Donald Trump began his day speaking with House Republicans in a closed-door meeting. House Speaker Mike Johnson calling the president-elect the, quote,
comeback king.
Also in Washington, we've just learned the vote for Senate Majority Leader is now headed to a second ballot. Senate Republicans failed to reach
agreement on that first ballot, so we'll continue to monitor and bring you those results, of course, as soon as we have them.
It is a busy day in the nation's capital, but don't worry. We've got plenty of folks there on the ground. Let's begin with Alayna Treene and Arlette
Saenz, who are both covering this transition as we begin.
Arlette, I'll go first to you. Things wrapping up a short time ago there at the White House.
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. The President-elect Trump and President Joe Biden really having this cordial exchange as they
met in the Oval Office. We do believe that they are still in this meeting right now. And it comes as Biden is trying to show that he is committed to
having an orderly and peaceful transfer of power to Trump, something that was not afforded to him by Trump back in 2020, when the then-president
refused to concede the election, did not invite Biden to the White House or attend his inauguration.
Today, you saw the two men engaging in a handshake, a smiling at times. As Biden said, he -- that there -- he's hoping there will be a smooth
transition. And then Trump acknowledging a bit of the awkwardness in the room, saying that politics can be tough.
Of course, these two men have been fierce competitors. for really going on six years now when Biden first challenged him in 2020. And then they faced
off for about 15 months of this campaign in 2024 when Biden had been seeking reelection.
So certainly, at least for these moments in front of the cameras, the two men appear to be putting their differences aside to try to show that there
will be this peaceful transition period occurring.
Now, I will also note that the White House chief of staff, Jeff Zients, and incoming White House Chief of Staff, Susie Wiles, are in that meeting right
now with Biden and Trump in the Oval Office, perhaps giving them a chance to talk about how some of this will play out over the coming months.
One person who is not in Washington, D.C., today is former and incoming First Lady Melania Trump. She did not join her husband for this traditional
event at the White House.
But as Trump was arriving at the White House, we're told, that First Lady Jill Biden was on hand with her husband to greet Trump. And she actually
handed Trump a handwritten letter directly for Melania Trump, congratulating her on her return and saying that the first lady's team
remains available to help with any of the transition process.
So in many ways, the Bidens trying to have some return to normalcy after Trump had really sworn off and shunned these traditions in the past.
But I will note that this meeting in the Oval Office is playing out just a few feet away from the private dining room where Trump had watched the
January 6 insurrection play out. Biden often described that scene as he criticized Trump, as he's painting him as a direct threat to democracy.
So certainly, there are a lot of feelings that go into Trump's return to the White House, many staffers acknowledging it's an emotional day. But for
President Biden and his team, they are trying to keep their heads down and focus on the professional work, show that they are committed to this
peaceful transfer at a time when Biden is now personally grappling with the fact that the man that he had defeated back in 2020 is now set to return to
that very oval office in just two months.
HILL: And in terms of that return, Alayna, I want to bring you in here. The president-elect, of course, meeting with Republicans, as I noted earlier
today.
[12:05:03]
And it's interesting to see he is coming back to a far different Washington than the first time around when he was there as president-elect, including,
not just in terms of the power that Republicans will hold across the Senate, obviously, and likely the House at this point, but also just how
this party has really fallen in line behind Donald Trump.
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: That's right. And I'd also remind you as well that something he didn't have before is that Supreme Court ruling, where
they -- the Supreme Court had ruled that presidents are immune for official acts. So that's another thing I know in my conversations with those close
to Trump and involved in some of these transitions discussions say that is really making Donald Trump feel emboldened, empowered, and like -- and like
he has a mandate.
And that's exactly what he told the room of House Republicans this morning when they met at the Hyatt. He really went in there to give a victory lap.
When I talked to people prior to that meeting, they said that his big goal was to try and unify them further behind him and to acknowledge that he
believes he's claiming that he won the popular vote.
I'd note that there are still millions of votes to be counted, but he believes that that gives him a mandate in Washington and that he really
wants Republicans in Congress and all of Washington as well to back him up once he is sworn in. He wants to hit the ground running and he doesn't want
Republicans to get in his way.
It's very similar to what we're seeing with his several picks for cabinet and other top roles in his second administration. He wants people that will
be yes men. He wants people who will not hold him back from doing what he wants to do.
Now, some other things we heard that he did in that meeting this morning, our colleague, Dana Bash, got some great inside room conversations or some
inside look at some of the inside the room conversations from that closed door meeting.
At one point, a source in the room had told her that Trump said he was with Johnson all the way. That is, of course, you know, Republicans are still
picking out and voting on who the next speaker is going to be, but I will note that they did not have any other challenger to him, so it looks like
Johnson has a clear pathway there.
But then also Donald Trump had joked at one point that he couldn't get rid of Elon Musk. And one of the things that is noteworthy about that is, Elon
Musk traveled with him today to that House Republican meeting to Washington. He flew on Donald Trump's plane from Palm Beach, landed with
him in D.C., and then attended that meeting with House Republicans.
And the reason that's so important is because we have really seen Musk's influence grow exponentially over the last several months, but particularly
in the last several days. Ever since Donald Trump won the election, Elon Musk has essentially been at Mar-a-Lago every single day by his side. We
know that people in the House, lawmakers have been calling him up and he's been calling them as well trying to see if they can boost their profiles in
front of Donald Trump through Elon Musk.
So I think that was a very notable thing. And, of course, it comes as we just learned within the last 24 hours that Donald Trump is going to be
appointing Musk, as well as his former Republican primary challenger, Vivek Ramaswamy, to run what they are calling the Department of Government
Efficiency, a totally new department that he is trying to create.
It's still unclear exactly what power they are going to have and what they're going to do. But Donald Trump did say in that announcement today
that it would provide advice and guidance from outside of government.
I note that outside of government because we know that Elon Musk was not interested in a formal role in Donald Trump's administration. He did not
want some sort of secretary cabinet position. And so this would allow him to kind of serve in Donald Trump's administration and have a government
role without having to divest from his businesses and companies. Erica.
HILL: Yes, absolutely. And it'll be interesting to see -- you're noting that the -- that Donald Trump said he can't get rid of Elon Musk. It'll be
interesting to see how long these two egos can coexist in the same orbit.
We're also just getting word, and my apologies if you're just hearing about this when I tell you, Alayna, but that we noted, of course, that senator
leadership was going to a second ballot is, in fact, Senator John Thune of South Dakota, we're told, who will be the new Senate Majority Leader.
TREENE: Yes. I mean, I think it's interesting because we know that obviously there was three people and we saw Rick Scott, senator from
Florida, really making a hard run for that position, although he was always going to be kind of. He wasn't expected to be successful in this.
I think what's interesting about Thune and just saying this from the Trump lens of it all, the Trump angle, is that not a lot of people close to
Donald Trump wanted Thune to be the leader. And I think I can say that pretty freely from the conversations I have had with them. There are a
couple of reasons for that.
One is that Thune has not always been loyal. I would note that he actually encouraged Senator Tim Scott to run in the 2024 race and have a primary --
pose a primary challenge to Donald Trump and helped him fundraise and whatnot.
But then he also recently, when people were asking him about whether or not he wanted Donald Trump's endorsement, he essentially said that he thought
that the president-elect should stay out of it, and that was after he had won the election. I know that many people, in Trump's orbit, had been
sharing that.
[12:10:03]
And so what we really saw over the last several days was people who are close to the former president who, you know, are working with Donald Trump,
really boosting Rick Scott. We just talked about Elon Musk. He was someone who said that he supported Scott's bid for leadership. We saw several other
people say the same things who are working with or near Donald Trump.
And so it is interesting to see how this relationship is going to play out in the future. Obviously, Thune is going to be a critical person for Donald
Trump as far as nominations, as far as getting his agenda passed.
And so I think it's definitely going to be interesting to see how these two men work together as we look ahead to the next four years.
HILL: Absolutely. Alayna, appreciate it.
I also want to bring in my colleague Lauren Fox joining us live from Capitol Hill.
Lauren, picking up there on where we left off with Alayna, the fact that there were people close to Donald Trump who told Alayna, in her reporting,
that John Thune was not somebody they wanted, not seen quite as loyal as perhaps Rick Scott, who, as we know, jumped on those comments from the
president-elect when he said he would want recess appointments.
How do -- how does this play out, the fact that he has now been elected as a -- as majority leader?
LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. This was a huge question mark, Erica, going into this race, because Donald Trump and John Thune's
relationship has been checkered at times.
Back in 2020, John Thune actually said that Trump's challenge of the election against Joe Biden, at the end of December, would go down like a
shot dog. That prompted at the time Donald Trump to call on Kristi Noem, another South Dakotan, to actually run against John Thune in a Republican
primary.
Now, she never went through with that. She declined to run against John Thune. But that just shows you how tense their relationship was just a few
years ago.
Now, in the spring, John Thune went down to Mar-a-Lago to try to make inroads with the president. He's continued to have conversations with
Donald Trump. His team has been telling me throughout the summer and into the fall.
But this was really an inside game. Despite the fact that Rick Scott did get that late surge of MAGA momentum, the underscoring reality was that
senators were going to be able to vote their conscience in the room.
This is a secret ballot election. That means no one knows how each member of the Republican Senate Conference was going to be voting today.
And that obviously may have benefited Thune, given the fact that, like Alayna was saying, this was never seen as Donald Trump's first choice. The
reality is, Donald Trump did not ultimately make an official endorsement and that was because there were several Republican senators who were sort
of urging him not to do so.
I talked to one of them who said that there was really no point in Trump getting in this race. You know, Markwayne Mullin had told me a couple of
weeks ago when I was reporting on this ongoing battle for GOP leader, that he had had several conversations.
Every time he saw Donald Trump, he was telling him, don't get involved in this race, because ultimately, it's not going to be up to you to decide.
And you're going to have to work with whoever gets that crown.
HILL: Interesting given what we all know though about the president-elect that he would in fact listen and not endorse and that we are now at this
point, Lauren.
FOX: Yes. I mean obviously it's a really interesting moment and there's going to be so much for John Thune to have to manage in the months ahead.
You know, it's really unclear what's going to happen with government's funding. That deadline is going to happen December 20th.
Now, Mitch McConnell will still be the Republican leader at that point, but there's going to be a huge question mark. If that gets kicked in to early
next year, that means that not only will John Thune be trying to move forward with all of Trump's nominees, get them through the United States
Senate in an expedited manner, but he will also potentially be dealing with a government funding package.
There's also a huge question mark of how quickly Republicans want to move forward on some kind of tax package. That's another agenda item that's
really important to Donald Trump.
And the underscoring reality here is that John Thune is an experienced leader. He is currently the Republican whip. He has relationships with
these Republican members. And so it's going to be really interesting to see whether or not, going forward, these two men can continue to bury the
hatchet, continue to work together.
I will say that one of the closing arguments that Thune was making to his colleagues was that he was going to be in regular contact with J.D. Vance,
who is a senator in the United States Senate who he's worked closely with, incoming vice president.
And he was also going to continue to have regular conversations with House Speaker Mike Johnson if he were elected to Republican leadership. I think
there have been some question if those lines of communication were always super open in the last couple of months, given the fact that there have
been some differences in the way that leaders on the Hill have been operating. Erica.
HILL: Absolutely. Lauren, appreciate it. Good to see you. Thanks.
Well, as we know, Donald Trump has been moving quickly to fill key positions in his cabinet, a number of those choices staunch loyalists.
That's not surprising. But there are some selections raising eyebrows even among conservatives. Wow. That's the reaction from one GOP senator to the
president-elect naming Fox News host and army vet, Pete Hegseth, as his pick for defense secretary.
[12:15:11]
One source saying he thinks that -- saying that Donald Trump thinks Hegseth has, quote, the look. He served in Iraq and Afghanistan and has been an
outspoken defender of Trump. He's also criticized efforts to allow women into combat roles.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, FOX NEWS HOST: The dumbest phrase on planet Earth in the military is our diversity is our strength. We should not have women in
combat roles.
But we let in TikTok where they can trans our kids and they don't trans their kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: On Tuesday, Trump announced he plans to nominate former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee to serve as U.S. ambassador to Israel. Huckabee, of
course, has been a staunch defender of Israel. He once said there is no such thing as a Palestinian and has also said that the U.S. could support
the annexation of the West Bank by Israel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE HUCKABEE, FORMER ARKANSAS GOVERNOR: There are certain words I refuse to use. There is no such thing as a West Bank. It's Judea and Samaria.
There's no such thing as a settlement. They're communities, they're neighborhoods, they're cities. There's no such thing as an occupation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: Trump, of course, also naming tech billionaire Elon Musk and former Republican presidential candidate, Vivek Ramaswamy, to head a new
department, as he's calling it, although frankly it lays out more as a bit of an advisory board, which is designed to cut spending and funding at
different government agencies.
And also to take an axe to a few budgets there. My colleague Tom Foreman joining me now live in Washington. And the goal here is pretty big, a
couple of trillion dollars, Tom.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. It's -- that's a big goal. There's a lot going on here. And I do not necessarily see how all the math lines up.
Now Donald Trump, of course, will say he has an idea how it lines up, but we'll have to see.
And some of these choices have really, as you said, raised eyebrows. The Fox News host, Hegseth, being one of them. Yes, he's a decorated military
veteran, but all indications are he has no experience whatsoever that would involve managing a giant organization, let alone something like the
military, approaching three million people. That's really huge, and the backlash from that and the underperformance of that could also be huge.
He's loyal to Trump, but the problem is when you put loyalty above everything else and you surround yourself with yes men, you better be right
on everything because it's all on you.
Same with Kristi Noem, the governor of South Dakota. She has been very loyal to Trump and a real hawk on this idea of, we have to control
immigration. The problem is the Department of Homeland Security is in charge of more than just looking after immigration. And we don't know how
well she'll be suited for those other tasks out there.
So, yes, for Trump supporters, this is the giant remaking of government that they have wanted, and some of these picks reflect it.
But for some other supporters who are worried about the success of all of this, they're worried that if you put loyalty that high up above ability
and experience, there's some of these that are -- you know, then you're running a real risk.
Some of these people really know what they're doing. Tom Homan, the border czar, he has experience in this field. Whether you agree with his politics
or not, he does now how this sort of thing works.
Marco Rubio, a senator who's been around a long time, yes, he's flip- flopped on Trump in a big, big way, but again, at least he's somebody who's been involved in committees and has some idea of how the government works.
A few others are that way.
But then others here, Erica, they fit that category of Trump just likes him. And I think it's so interesting that he said about Hegseth, that he
had the look. I think it has been important for a long time to know how much Donald Trump looks at the world like a reality T.V. star, or somebody
tied to the world of pro wrestling, where it's like, ah, we want a certain look.
And at one point during the whole conflict with Israel and Gaza, Trump was saying, well, you know, Israel's public relations, their public image is
really looking bad here. That's true, but it's all rooted in actual things. And that's where I think a lot of critics are looking and saying, is he
really going to be able to tend to the actual things with these people, not just the image?
HILL: Right. Does a face for T.V. translate to the experience to manage some three million people, as you point out.
FOREMAN: Yes, exactly.
HILL: Tom, appreciate it.
FOREMAN: You're welcome.
HILL: Thank you, as always, my friend.
Just ahead here, convicted January 6 rioters hoping to have their criminal records wiped clean when Donald Trump returns to the White House. So will
he follow through on that promise of pardons?
Plus, Melania Trump, apparently, planning once again to put her own unique stamp on her role as first lady. Those new details, just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:20:20]
HILL: Thanks for staying with us here. Recapping the breaking news out of Washington. Just a few moments ago, Senate Republicans electing South
Dakota Senator John Thune as their leader. He will be the majority leader there, of course, because Republicans do hold control of the Senate after
last week's election here in the U.S.
President-elect Donald Trump is headed to Capitol Hill after finishing his meeting with President Biden at the White House, where they met for more
than an hour. Both leaders addressing the press at the start of the meeting, pledging for a smooth transition.
For a closer look in what we know so far about what the second Trump administration might look like, some of the choices that have been
announced, I want to bring in our panel, Olivia Troye, who worked in the first Trump White House, with a focus of home on homeland security. She was
also, of course, an adviser to then Vice President Mike Pence. Heath Brown is an associate professor of public policy at the John Jay College and also
City University of New York Graduate Center. It's good to have both of you with us.
So, let's start off with what we know at this moment. You know, I was struck. And, Heath, I know you have participated in a number of
transitions, helped on that front. The fact that, as we saw the former president, now president-elect, and current president sitting there in the
Oval Office, Donald Trump said in that spray that this would be a very smooth transition, saying it will be as smooth as it can get, which I don't
think we can point out enough just how different this moment is to what we saw four years ago in terms of this very important transition and peaceful
transition of power.
To call this, as smooth as it can get, from what you're seeing so far, Heath, is that where it's headed?
HEATH BROWN, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF PUBLIC POLICY, JOHN JAY COLLEGE: You know we don't know at this point. I think you're right that four years ago
this was anything but smooth.
And in comparison, the outgoing Biden administration is making things very, very easy. They've been at this for about a year, getting ready for this
transition, even though President Biden was running for much of that time.
We still have some things that we don't know yet about this transition. But what we know now is that things are going pretty smoothly. And so I think
that characterization at the White House today was pretty accurate.
HILL: And, Olivia, as we look at this, we know that, just a few days ago, of course, the president-elect said that he wanted to use recess
appointments, wanted to move things along. Senator Rick Scott quickly got on board. He was hoping to be Senate Majority Leader. He did not win that
race in the second ballot, of course, it went to Senator Thune.
And my colleague, Alayna Treene, reporting that a number of people close to Donald Trump didn't want Thune in this role, because he was not seen as,
you know, quite the staunch loyalist for obvious reasons.
Do you think it's important that the person who is going to be heading up the Senate now is perhaps not a staunch Trump loyalist?
[12:25:02]
OLIVIA TROYE, NATIONAL SECURITY EXPERT: Yes, I think it's critical. I think this is -- actually, I'll take this as a small win to push back against the
extremist MAGA agenda. And I think that, you know, I think he will be faced with some major challenges going forward.
But I think that this is a positive thing for the country to have someone like him at the helm rather than Rick Scott, who was obviously supported
by, as you said, the inner circle in Trump's circles and also by Elon Musk, who was advocating for him as well. I think that says it all.
HILL: When we look at where things stand in terms of this transition, Heath, I know you expressed concern prior to the election and have doubled
down on that since about these memos of understanding not being signed, part of the process for the transition then not taking place.
You said it risks the safety and the security of the country by not signing these letters. Why does it do so?
BROWN: Essentially, what those agreements allow for is for the current administration to share information with the incoming administration.
That's all thrown through the General Services Administration that has been preparing lots of information, enormous amount of resources to get the new
administration ready.
By not signing these MOUs, these agreements, the transition team is cutting itself off from all of that information. That's risky. Because in order to
be ready for day one, for all of the known and also the unknown challenges, you want to have as much information as possible. Not signing the
agreements risks being underprepared for day one.
HILL: In terms of preparation, there is a lot of focus on the loyalty of some of the folks who have now been tapped as picks for this
administration. And there are questions about experience.
Olivia, calling on your deep, deep knowledge and experience when it comes to homeland security, the fact that Donald Trump has said he would like DHS
to be headed up by South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem, she has come out as a staunch supporter in terms of much stricter policies on immigration.
The reality, of course, is that DHS oversees a lot, not just immigration. You've also got FEMA, the Secret Service. What do you see as the strengths
and weaknesses that she would bring to that role?
TROYE: Well, I think she certainly served as a governor. So hopefully she will bring some of that practical experience from her state to the
department.
But I do have concerns about the fact that, like at the end of the day, it's Stephen Miller and Tom Homan who are going to really be running the
department in terms of immigration, because that will be their focus. And I think they chose her specifically because of the fact that she will be
loyal and she will completely stay in line and do whatever they need her to do.
I'll also say this. To me, having her at the helm, points to the fact that they do plan to make significant changes in the Homeland Security
enterprise.
And I think if you really carefully look closely at the Project 2025 chapter on the Department of Homeland Security, I think that is going to
see something that we'll see come to fruition where they start to dismantle the department. And I think she'll be playing a big role in that.
HILL: In terms of dismantling the department, Olivia, what do you think that will look like?
TROYE: I think that they will certainly pull away the immigration components, the focus of it, which is why they have called Tom Homan border
czar. I think that is critical for them. And then I think you're going to see them piecemeal it.
I think you'll see them either move the coast guard entity, the Department of Justice, or you'll see Department of CISA, which I do think is critical
in terms of the role that they play in countering our threats on cybersecurity and the role that they play in critical infrastructure with
private sectors and businesses and their partnerships.
They could be moved. They could be moved into the Department of Interior, which would be a little bit suspect.
But, ultimately, I think when you combine all of this with the now announcement of the government office that Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy
will be running the Government Efficiency Office, I think that'll be interesting to see how these components interact and how they actually
pursue their agenda for defining what government efficiency is. And I'm pretty sure that DHS will be at the forefront of it.
HILL: Thank you for setting us up well for a conversation that we're going to have on the other side of a quick break, Olivia.
Just ahead here, we will take a closer look at what that means. This new plan for Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy.
Also, Republicans, who at this point are just two seats away, from reclaiming a majority in the U.S. House. How could that impact Donald
Trump's ability to follow through on his campaign promises? We're going to ask former congressman Charlie Dent, just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:30:51]
HILL: Welcome back to ONE WORLD, I'm Erica Hill.
At this hour, President-elect Donald Trump is meeting with President Joe Biden. They're just finishing a meeting there, of course. They shook hands
when they first met in front of reporters, talk of a smooth transition of power.
Despite their years of harsh words to each other, the two were cordial. Donald Trump saying, the world of politics, in his words, is tough, but
that quote, it's a nice world today.
On Capitol Hill at this hour, Republican Senator John Thune has just won Senate leadership after two rounds of voting. The U.S. House majority
remains undecided more than a week after the election, as we wait for some of those final races to be called. But at this point, it does look likely
Republicans are going to end up with a slim majority in the House.
As of today, they're just two seats away. And that puts the party, of course, on the cusp of controlling both chambers of Congress and the White
House.
Joining us to discuss, former Pennsylvania Republican Congressman Charlie Dent, who's currently a senior advisor of Our Republican Legacy, and
executive director at the Aspen Institute Congressional Program. Always good to talk to you.
When we look at where things stand and where we are today, this slim majority, which is likely in the House, giving Republicans a lot of power
to carry out these campaign promises from the president-elect, there are questions, too, about the guardrails, because Donald Trump also has a lot
of power, thanks to that immunity decision, from the Supreme Court.
Do you believe some of these guardrails and checks and balances will hold in the next couple of years?
CHARLIE DENT, FORMER UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVE: Actually, I think our institutions are a lot stronger than people gave us all credit for. I think
one of the problems of this past election cycle was many people on both sides raised the stakes too high. Donald Trump was saying if he didn't win
the election, we wouldn't have a country anymore. The Democrats were saying if Donald Trump won the election, we would move to an autocratic
dictatorship and democracy would be over.
Well, I think a lot of this was overstated. But bottom line is I think some guardrails will hold. Will they be tested? Of course they'll be tested
because Trump, as we know, will always push the limits.
But there are plenty of people out there who, elected officials, who are going to have to get re-elected in two short years. And that might be the
ultimate guardrail or check of all.
[12:35:02]
HILL: Yes. Let's be honest, the race for 26 has already started for a lot of folks in the House, which is the way it works --
DENT: Indeed.
HILL: -- as you know all too well. Donald Trump has run to on this idea of disruption, right? And there are millions of people in this country who
voted for that. They want to see changes in government. They want to see what they perceive to be a lot of inefficiencies go away. They want things
to be smoother, to work better for them.
Based on what you're seeing, in terms of some of these appointments so far, do you believe Donald Trump could put the country on a track to that?
DENT: Well, when you talk about disruption, you know, there are a lot of people who want change, and some of them want disruption. But when we start
-- when things start to get disrupted, then people react.
Take the tariff proposal, for example. There will be extreme disruption. And I can assure you that there are going to be a lot of members of
Congress, Republican members of Congress, who are going to be hearing from their constituents loudly about how damaging this will be. So there's a
disruption. Was it a good one? And there may be political consequences.
So, yes, there's disruption. And, but again, you know, one thing to talk about it, but once you start enacting it, you start making these types of
changes, people will react.
And so just remember that nothing is permanent in politics. Everybody's out there talking right now like there's a mandate. The winning party always,
always misreads their mandate. Democrats misread their mandate in 2020. Republicans will probably end up overreaching and misreading their mandate
going forward. I hope that's not the case, but expect it.
And this disruption, you know, will obviously have political repercussions for many members, particularly in the most vulnerable districts.
HILL: In terms of this, in this moment, misreading the mandate, what do you think has been misread to this point?
DENT: Well, right now, I mean, look, Donald Trump, he's in his grace period, a little bit of a honeymoon here. He's making his nominations for
some good and some questionable, like a defense.
But so far, you know, he's -- I think people are going to give him a little bit of latitude. But what I'm expecting right now, I mean, they have to
make some really big decisions quickly. Like, are they going to finish the appropriations bills and deal with the debt ceiling, which ripens on
January 2nd?
I mean, they should get it all done now. But I have a feeling Trump is going to be under pressure from the hardliners in the House especially to
kick all this into the new year.
So on top of that, they have to get all these nominations through the Senate. They're going to have to deal with the border issues. They're going
to have to deal with the tax changes that they want to make through reconciliation. They're going to have a pile up pretty quickly if they
don't get things moving smartly now by clearing the deck clean the barn so to speak in the Congress right now before Christmas.
HILL: Well, speaking of appropriations in Congress, look, Congress controls the purse strings. We say this all the time. I was struck by some of what
we're hearing from Elon Musk, who is essentially an advisory board, right? They're calling it a department, but to create a whole new --
DENT: Right.
HILL: -- department would be a whole -- a whole headache.
But claiming that he can cut $2 trillion from the budget, which is about $6.5 trillion, he's spoken pretty grandly about eliminating entire
departments, getting rid of people. So they're -- sort of a two-part question for you.
Number one, how does that actually happen as a man who has served in Congress for a number of years, the chances of that happening? And number
two, do you think they're taking into account the potential ramifications of that?
If you're talking about getting rid of thousands of jobs, right, you have more people unemployed, you have a decrease in spending power, that also
has a significant impact on their personal lives and on the economy.
DENT: Well, to put $2 trillion in perspective, you know, on a $6.5 trillion federal budget, little under $2 trillion is what we spend on what's called
discretionary spending. That's the Department of Defense and other departments and agencies.
Not what we call -- this is not the mandatory or entitlement spending, which is Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, a lot of veterans benefits,
food stamps, or what they call them, SNAP now, that's most of the budget.
But the truth -- but you're spending a little less than $2 trillion on discretionary spending. If you wiped that all out in one year, I mean, you
wouldn't have a Defense Department, you wouldn't have a Justice Department, a Homeland Security Department. I mean, you've got a list.
So, you know, I don't know where they're picking these numbers out of, but only about the discretionary part of the budget is subject to the
appropriations process. The other spending is on autopilot. What changes? They're going to have to make changes to Medicare in a big way, Medicaid
and Social Security if they hope to get anywhere close to $2 trillion in savings.
So I'm anxious to see the details because I suspect we're not going to see a whole lot.
HILL: Well, we will be -- we'll be looking at those. Do you have any concerns about jobs going away?
DENT: In the federal -- in the federal bureaucracy?
HILL: Yes.
DENT: You know, I think there'll be some pressure. I think the bigger issue is what are they going to do about some of these civil service positions?
Will they -- will they try to do what they can to make -- turn those into political appointments? I think that's really the more immediate question.
HILL: Yes.
DENT: But, look, if Donald Trump wants to enforce the border, as he should, that's -- if he has a mandate, it's to help enforce the border. Well, he's
going to need more personnel. They're going to need more people at ICE and the Border Patrol and Customs and Border Protection. They're going to need
more people, not less, just to take care of that one campaign promise that Trump has made.
[12:40:20]
So I'm not sure where they're going to cut these folks out. But, you know, a big part of the federal workforce is, oh, it's the Armed Forces. They're
going to make reductions there? You know, I mean, I -- I mean, they have to get specific, because some of these positions are essential. Maybe they'll
be able to find some, but defense is a big chunk of this.
And so is the VA, which is the largest health system in the country.
HILL: Yes.
DENT: Are they going to make cuts at the VA? I mean, these are -- again, there are more questions than answers at this point. Throwing around a
number like $2 trillion is easy. But when you get into the details of federal spending, it's hard.
HILL: Yes, the specifics. The devil is always in the details. That is for sure.
Charlie Dent, always good to see you. Thanks.
DENT: Thank you.
HILL: Just ahead here, CNN speaks with a convicted January 6th rioter and her supporters who are certain that a Trump pardon is coming her way
following his reelection, but will he deliver?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HILL: Hundreds of Donald Trump supporters who were convicted for their roles in the January 6th attack on the U.S. Capitol are now waiting to see
whether the president-elect will deliver on his promise to pardon a number of them.
CNN's Donie O'Sullivan has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Today was amazing. Woke up with the President of the United States, the rightful president back in his spot. And today, after
828 days, we're going to pop some champagne and raise a glass to President Trump.
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the mother of Ashli Babbitt, the rioter who was shot and killed by Capitol Police on
January 6.
SHERRI HAFNER, J6 PARDON ACTIVIST: Mama Micki, we love you, honey. And we are so grateful for you bringing this freedom family together.
(CHEERING)
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): It's the night after the election. Trump supporters have gathered here as they have every night for the last 800
nights, outside the Washington D.C. jail.
O'SULLIVAN: How did you feel when Trump won last night?
HAFNER: I knew that meant freedom for our guys. And I was overwhelmed, thankful, and I know that God heard our prayers.
[12:45:05]
O'SULLIVAN: Were you emotional?
HAFNER: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Jan. 6 inmates calling to talk to the organizers nightly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This whole journey, this stressful bearing journey has finally come to an end with the election of our beloved President Donald J.
Trump.
HAFNER: I couldn't stop crying last night that you guys are finally going to get pardon. You're going to be set free. And all of this is going to be
behind us.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Trump has repeatedly promised to give pardons to some people serving time for their actions on January 6th.
SUZZANNE MONK, FOUNDER, J6 PARDON PROJECT: And now, we have to continue to put pressure on the president to make that right decision to fulfill that
promise. And I -- I know that he will, but I also know my president understands trust, but verify.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): One person who certainly hopes to be pardoned is Rachel Powell.
O'SULLIVAN: How do you feel when you watch this?
RACHEL POWELL, CONVICTED JAN. 6 RIOTER: You know, I think -- I am more numb when I look at this stuff. It's like surreal to me. I mean, look how angry
I look.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): I met Rachel back in January of this year, right before she was about to go to prison for crime she committed at the Capitol
on January 6th while protesting what she believed was a stolen election.
O'SULLIVAN: Have you ever had a moment where you were like, you know, maybe I'm wrong, maybe Biden actually won the election. Maybe I'm the conspiracy
theorist.
R. POWELL: No. Not at all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This call is from a federal prison.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Rachel and I stayed in touch throughout the year.
R. POWELL (via telephone): I feel like I just need to be home with my family.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Rachel has eight children ranging in ages from 8 to 28, along with seven grandkids. We spoke to three of Rachel's older
daughters, Adah, Rebekah, and Savannah.
O'SULLIVAN: Oh, this is you and your mom?
ADAH POWELL, DAUGHTER OF RACHEL POWELL: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: When was this taken?
REBEKAH FEDOSICK, DAUGHTER OF RACHEL POWELL: Yes. This was in the prison. This is Adah, our mom. This is Gideon, me and my husband.
SAVANNAH HUNTINGTON, DAUGHTER OF RACHEL POWELL: The only thing I could think of when I heard that Trump won the election was that my mom is coming
home. She's going to be able to come home now.
FEDOSICK: Yes.
HUNTINGTON: Just, we're going to have our mom back.
FEDOSICK: You just know she's freaking out.
HUNTINGTON: Yes. She's so excited. She's so happy.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Their mom was found guilty of engaging in physical violence and of destruction of government property, for breaking a window
at the Capitol with an ice axe.
O'SULLIVAN: Do you ever just think, oh, mom, I wish you didn't go to Washington D.C. that day?
A. POWELL: I feel like that's a pretty normal thought to have when there's so many consequences to the actions. But ultimately, she was going to
support something she believed in.
SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.
FEDOSICK: Yes.
A. POWELL: And she's our mother, so we support her in whatever she decides to do.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
FEDOSICK: I don't blame her for going, kind of wish she had a little, like, held herself back.
A. POWELL: Maybe a little more restraint would've been nice.
FEDOSICK: Exactly. Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: You guys are not of the opinion your mom went to Washington, D.C. chasing a conspiracy theory, chasing a lie?
HUNTINGTON: No.
A. POWELL: No.
FEDOSICK: No.
A. POWELL: You know, she had a strong belief. She wanted to go support it. And we all share her belief that it was definitely stolen in our opinions.
O'SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. You're certain he will pardon your mom?
FEDOSICK: Yes.
HUNTINGTON: Yes. Yes. He will -- he will keep to what he said. He will keep his word. He is going to pardon her.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): While we're at Rachel's home, she called from prison.
R. POWELL (via telephone): Oh, man. When Trump won, it was amazing. It was -- which I knew. I knew that that's what the American people wanted, so I
had no doubt.
But as everybody knows, I believe there was election fraud last time. And so I just wondered, are we going to have a fair election this time? And it
appears that we did because Trump got elected.
O'SULLIVAN: And do you think he's going to pardon you?
R. POWELL (via telephone): I know he's going to pardon me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HILL: And our thanks to Donie O'Sullivan for that reporting.
Still ahead here, how Melania Trump may be looking to buck tradition for her second term as first lady. We're live, just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:50:42]
HILL: Just getting you up to speed on the breaking news out of Washington in the past hour. Senate Republicans electing South Dakota Senator John
Thune as their leader. Of course, Senate Majority Leader there.
President-elect Donald Trump will be making his way to Capitol Hill this afternoon, following meetings with President Biden at the White House. Both
leaders at the start of the moment -- start of the meeting, pardon me, were speaking, very cordial with one another, promising a smooth transition.
Sources telling CNN that for her second go-round as first lady, though, it's unlikely Melania Trump will move back into the White House full-time.
After the 2016 election, of course, Mrs. Trump delayed her move to Washington for several months to allow her son, Barron, to finish out the
school year in New York.
She also declined today's invitation from first lady Jill Biden to come to the White House, citing a scheduling conflict.
Joining me now, CNN senior White House producer Betsy Klein. Betsy, good to see you.
You have covered the former, now incoming, first lady for some time. So the fact that she's not moving to Washington full-time, is that a surprise at
all?
BETSY KLEIN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE PRODUCER: Well, Erika, if you watched Melania Trump in the first four years of her term, she made a point of her
willingness to buck tradition. So she's laying an early marker here that this time will be no different.
She decided to skip that meeting with First Lady Jill Biden after Biden extended her that invitation as their husbands met in the Oval Office
today.
But First Lady Jill Biden did greet President-elect Donald Trump and she offered a handwritten note to Melania Trump expressing her hope that they
can have a smooth transition.
Now, we've also learned, as you mentioned, that Melania Trump is unlikely to move full-time to Washington next year when President-elect Trump takes
office. She's expected to divide her time largely between New York, where Barron Trump is in college, as well as Palm Beach, where Mar-a-Lago is, and
she's built a community and circle of friends there.
And as you mentioned, a first lady declining to live full-time at the White House, that is unprecedented. But if you observe Melania Trump, it
shouldn't really come as a surprise, because her preference, frankly, is not to be publicly involved. She has her husband's ear on a variety of
topics and advises him frequently, but she really telegraphed early on in this campaign that she was not going to be an active presence compared to
back in 2016 and 2020.
We saw her at the announcement event. We saw her at Madison Square Garden. And then the third and final time we saw her on the campaign trail was on
election night up on the stage with families. So she made that clear.
But make no mistake, she has a constant voice in her husband's ear, giving him advice. They -- there was this sort of misconception during the first
four years that she was some sort of so-called resistance, but that is really not the case. She is incredibly aligned with her husband, and we
expect her to continue to do so.
HILL: Do we expect from her sort of bucking tradition, as we've seen, and again, as you point out, Betsy, perhaps not entirely unexpected, given what
we saw in the first Trump administration.
Is there a sense, though, that there will be a particular cause? We remember her Be Best campaign or something anxious or looking forward to
getting behind come January?
KLEIN: Yes. She did an interview with Fox News just before the election promoting her book where she talks about how she wasn't anxious this time
around because it's different. And it's different because she has experience. She knows what to expect at the White House. She knows the pace
and the flow and what the staffing is like.
[12:55:04]
I think a lot of the big questions now are she had a relatively skeletal staff compared to other modern first ladies. Is she going to beef that up
from a policy perspective? How does she build on or expand that Be Best initiative?
As you mentioned, it was sort of wide-ranging and unfocused. It was focused on cyberbullying and the opioid epidemic, as well as children's well-being.
So is there going to be an effort to kind of tighten that up, refocus it going forward? Or will she take on a new issue entirely? Much to be seen in
the coming months.
HILL: Yes, absolutely. Betsy, appreciate it. Thank you.
Thanks to all of you for joining me this hour for ONE WORLD. I'm Erica Hill in New York. Thanks for watching. Stay tuned. "AMANPOUR" is next after a
quick break. You're watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:00:00]
END
