Return to Transcripts main page
One World with Zain Asher
CNN Goes Inside Secret Prison In Syria; Man Believed To Be Missing U.S. Citizen Found In Syria; Trump Wins Time Person Of The Year, Rings NYSE Opening Bell; NYPD: Suspect's Fingerprints Match Ones Near Crime Scene; Sullivan: Looking To Close Gaza Hostage And Ceasefire Deal; Officials Investigating Drones Over New Jersey. Aired 12-1p ET
Aired December 12, 2024 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:00:26]
ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Remarkable stories of survival emerged from Syria.
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: ONE WORLD starts right now.
Syria's caretaker leadership says Assad's security forces are a thing of the past. CNN is on the ground as Syrians look to their future.
ASHER: Donald Trump is named "Time Person of the Year," as the president- elect doubles down on controversial plans for illegal migrants.
GOLODRYGA: Plus, could a ceasefire deal in Gaza be close? We'll bring you the latest on the Biden administration's efforts for a ceasefire and
hostage deal.
Hello, everyone. Live from New York, I'm Bianna Golodryga.
ASHER: And I'm Zain Asher. You are watching ONE WORLD.
The leader of the rebel group that toppled the brutal dictatorship of Bashar al-Assad is now moving quickly to put his stamp on Syria.
Mohammad al-Jolani told Reuters that he plans to dissolve Syrian security forces used by the previous regime and will close the country's notorious
prisons. Jolani also said his team is working with international organizations to secure possible chemical weapon sites.
ASHER: But as a new caretaker government navigates this tenuous transition of power, the situation on the ground is chaotic, with dozens of competing
factions vying for control.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. In Northern Syria, a pro-Turkish group that has been fighting Kurdish forces says a four-day ceasefire is now underway around
the city of Manbij. The U.S. has been concerned that battles in the area could hurt efforts aimed at preventing the resurgence of ISIS.
Rights groups, meanwhile, are alarmed over worsening conditions in the region and warned tens of thousands of displaced civilians lack the most
basic of necessities.
ASHER: And complicating things even further, Israel and Turkey have been conducting airstrikes on Syria's military bases as well.
Meantime, families in Syria are desperately searching for loved ones who were held in one of Syria's notorious prisons operated by the Assad regime.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. CNN's Clarissa Ward went inside one of them and made an incredible discovery behind a cell door.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Deep in the belly of the regime's air force intelligence headquarters --
WARD: These are English letters.
WARD (Voice-over): -- we are hoping to find traces of Austin Tice, an American journalist held captive in Syria since 2012. It's one of many
secret prisons across the city. This specific branch was tasked with surveillance, arrest, and killing of all regime critics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are all cleaned out.
WARD (voice-over): We don't find any hints of Tice, but come across something extraordinary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't tell, though. It might just be a blanket. But it's the only cell that's locked.
Is he going to shoot it?
WARD (voice-over): The guard makes us turn the camera off while he shoots the lock off the cell door.
We go in to get a closer look. It's still not clear if there is something under the blanket.
WARD: It moved. Is there someone there? I thought I saw it move. Is someone there? Or is it just a blanket? I don't know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One second, I think someone. Hello?
WARD: OK. Let's me just -- it just moved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's OK. It's OK. It's not Tice. Journalist. Journalist. Journalist.
WARD (voice-over): I'm a civilian, he says. I'm a civilian.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's OK. It's OK. It's OK.
WARD (voice-over): He tells the fighter, he's from the city of Homs and has been in the cell for three months.
WARD: OK. You're OK. You're OK. You're OK. You're OK.
WARD (voice-over): He clutches my arm tightly with both hands.
WARD: OK. Does anyone have any water? Water. OK. It's water. It's water. OK. OK. OK. You're OK. You're OK. You're OK.
WARD (voice-over): We start to walk him outside. Thank God you are safe. Don't be afraid, the fighter says. You are free.
[12:05:04]
This is the third prison they brought me to, he says. It's the third prison.
After three months in a windowless cell, he can finally see the sky.
My God, the light, he says. Oh, God, there is light. My God, there is light.
OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. You're OK.
Stay with me. Stay with me. He repeats again and again.
For three months, I didn't know anything about my family, he says. I didn't hear anything about my children.
The fighter hands him something to eat, barely lift it to his mouth. But his body can't handle it.
OK. You're OK.
His captors fled during the fall of Damascus, leaving him with no food or water. That was at least four days ago.
I'm shaking. My face is shaking, he says. The rebel tells him, there's no more army, no more prisons, no more checkpoints. Are you serious? He says.
Syria is free, he tells him.
It's the first time he has heard those words.
He tells us his name is Adil Khurbal (ph), and that officers from the much feared Mukhabarat Intelligence Services took him from his home and began
interrogating him about his phone.
They brought me here to Damascus. They asked me about names of terrorists, he says. Did they hit you, the fighter asked. Yes, yes, he says.
As a paramedic arrives, the shock sets in. There's nothing, everything is OK. The Red Crescent is coming to help you, this man assures him. You are
safe. Don't be afraid anymore. Everything you are afraid of is gone.
Tens of thousands of Syrians have disappeared in Assad's prisons. Up until 15 minutes ago, Adil Khurbal was one of them. He is still petrified.
Don't be afraid, don't be afraid, the ambulance worker reassures him. Every car I got into, they blindfolded me, he says.
It is the end of a very dark chapter for him and for all of Syria. But so many ghosts remain.
Clarissa Ward, CNN, Damascus.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Our thanks to Clarissa Ward for that really captivating piece.
Meantime, Syria's new caretaker government says that it is ready to cooperate with the U.S. in the search for Americans who went missing under
Assad's regime. As Clarissa had mentioned, efforts are currently underway to find journalist Austin Tice who vanished in 2012.
ASHER: Yes. This as the U.S. works on bringing home another American found walking barefoot just outside of Damascus. Travis Timmerman had been
reported missing in Hungary earlier this year.
CNN's Salma Abdelaziz has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A U.S. citizen that went missing in Hungary has turned up in Damascus. Travis Timmerman, a Missouri native, 29
years old, a U.S. citizen, was found disoriented, barefoot in wandering south of Damascus in a field.
He has spoken to media. He has spoken to residents in the area. I want you to take a listen to this interview with NBC to get a sense of his state of
being.
TRAVIS TIMMERMAN, MISSING AMERICAN WANDERING OUTSIDE DAMASCUS: After that, I went to the Syrian border illegally. I crossed the mountain between
Lebanon and Syria. And I was living in that mountain for three days and three nights with no water.
And I was seen by a border guard, I did that. And then that's when I was arrested. I was sent to a Syrian prison called (INAUDIBLE).
ABDELAZIZ: Now, as you heard there, Timmerman does admit that he illegally crossed into Syria from Lebanon under the very tight control of President
Bashar al-Assad's regime. Anyone crossing into Syria would absolutely be stopped by security forces. That's what took place a few days after he
arrived in Syria.
[12:10:01]
Timmerman was then taken to a regime prison. He was held there for seven months. He says he was treated relatively well, given food, given water,
given bathroom breaks.
But he says he heard the sound of people being tortured in that prison every single day. Now, when rebels liberated Damascus, he, among others,
was able to break out of prison.
The U.S. says it is aware of his case and is providing support on the ground. An extraordinary tale and a welcome end for his family.
Salma Abdelaziz, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: America's top diplomat, Antony Blinken, was in Jordan for urgent meetings on Syria and the region as a whole. He met earlier with King
Abdullah and repeated the Biden administration's call for an inclusive process to form Syria's next government.
ASHER: Yes. That's a process that he says that must allow Syrians to choose their path forward. Take a listen to what we had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The focus of our work here is to coordinate efforts across the region to support the Syrian people as they
transition away from Assad's brutal dictatorship.
What we're focused on is not choosing a path for Syria, but making sure the Syrian people have the opportunity to choose their path forward.
I think to succeed and to emerge from the past dominated by Assad, any transitional government has to adhere to certain basic principles.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: Blinken is also reiterating America's commitment from stopping ISIS from growing in Syria in the wake of the Syrian government's collapse.
All right. Even for a man who has won the presidency of the United States, today is big day, with a lot of honors, actually.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Donald Trump was named "Time Magazine's" Person of the Year this morning. It is his second time as Person of the Year for the magazine,
also being named when he won the presidency back in 2016.
ASHER: Yes. In an interview with "Time," Trump said he plans to use the U.S. military to help carry out his plans for mass deportations of
undocumented immigrants. He said that he might have to build camps to hold those migrants as well.
GOLODRYGA: Trump also spoke to "Time" about his plans for the Department of Education, saying that he wants to virtually shut down its operations in
Washington and hand education over to the states.
ASHER: Separately, Trump's press secretary says, they have invited Chinese leader Xi Jinping to Trump's inauguration on January 20th. No word if Mr.
Xi has accepted it.
GOLODRYGA: And the morning topped off with Donald Trump ringing the opening bell at the New York Stock Exchange. Several members of his family and his
V.P., J.D. Vance, also attended the ceremonial bell ringing.
So much going on today. We want to talk more about Trump's preparations for the White House. Joining us, CNN's senior political commentator, Scott
Jennings. Scott, it was interesting to see Trump there at the NYSC. My old stomping ground. My first job in New York was a producer there. So it's
always exciting.
And you see how he was met with real enthusiasm by the traders there, obviously, the economy, a top issue for so many voters and for him as well.
But it was notable in this interview with "Time Magazine" when he was asked about the economy, being a big factor in his victory. And he said, no, no,
it was a big factor, but the bigger factor, I believe, was the border.
He was then asked about the price of groceries and whether he felt that if they didn't go down that he would be blamed. And he was rather honest about
saying, listen, I hope they go down. I'd like to bring them down. It's hard to bring down once they're done.
We know that the economy was the number one issue for most voters. How much leeway do you think Americans will give him on that issue of inflation? We
saw it remain rather stubbornly high, meeting estimates in a report earlier this year.
This is going to be a big challenge for him, Scott.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It is. I think he will get some leeway. Because I think Trump's going to be honest with the
American people about the situation that we're in.
And I think one of the reasons voters punished Biden and Harris, ultimately, is because they weren't truthful about what was going on.
They repeatedly I think were dishonest about how their policies have led to some of the inflation that was crippling people. And then at the end of the
campaign, they were trying to tell everyone that inflation was going down when in fact it was not going down. The rate of inflation might have been
slowing, but prices were still creeping up. As you just noted, it's still stubbornly high.
So I think Trump is telling the truth. It's hard to bring prices down once they go up. But if you're honest, and then you further institute policies
that don't make it worse that, in fact, alleviates some of the economic anxiety that people are having, I think voters will give you some leeway
and ultimately reward you for that kind of transparency.
But you're going to get a radically different economic vision out of Trump than you are of Biden. And for politics purposes, you hope that vision and
you hope that those policies alleviate that anxiety that has sort of permeated the electorate for the last four years.
ASHER: I mean, just in terms of him being named "Time" Person of the Year, I mean, just talk to us about the sort of massive seismic impact that
Donald Trump has had on U.S. politics, not just from 2016 onwards, but just really in the last, you know, couple of years alone.
[12:15:05]
You think about the fact that he campaigned largely from a New York courtroom, the fact that, you know, after his sole debate with President
Biden, that led to President Biden dropping out of the race.
And then, of course, the assassination attempts. I put the sort of S in brackets, because obviously there was a second attempt as well.
And then you have the fact that not only did he win, but he won by such a huge margin really bringing in a lot of voters that people didn't expect to
vote Republican this time around.
Just talk to us about what sort of impact the president-elect has had on the shape of U.S. politics this year alone.
JENNINGS: Well, first of all, it's the greatest comeback story in American political history. I mean, when you think about all the things you just
listed that he survived, from the political stuff to the lawfare to the assassination attempts to the Democrats changing out their campaign.
When you think about all the unprecedented stuff that he had to survive in order to come back from losing in 2020 to winning, not just the Electoral
College, but the popular vote in 2024, there's never been anything like it.
And you're right, he did bring out voters that only want to support Donald Trump. And I think one of the things that we learned in this election, one
of the superpowers of Donald Trump is that he's the breaker of narratives. And there were always narratives around him that he could never win the
election, that the case in New York was going to bring him down, that, you know, this or that was going to be the thing that finally brought down
Donald Trump or that Kamala Harris was the greatest presidential candidate we have ever seen and so on and so forth.
Trump is the breaker of narratives. And I think he exposed, really, the political information distribution complex in this election for what it is,
which is often a distributor of narratives and not facts.
And a lot of people came out and supported Donald Trump because they felt like they were being lied to by the current administration. They had a real
mistrust of the policies that had been instituted. They were upset about the economy. The border was really -- and I think he's right. The border
was really on people's minds for all of the societal impacts of that.
And he broke all of the narratives around it that was coming out of the media and coming out of the Democrats and won this huge victory. I think
it's earth-shattering what he did, not just for politics, but the way we as Americans receive and process our political information. He kind of
bypassed in some ways the mainstream media and went right to these alternative media sources. And it turns out his entire strategy around that
was correct.
GOLODRYGA: Scott, the other big headline we got yesterday was the announcement from FBI Director Christopher Wray that he would be stepping
down before his term ends in 2027, his 10-year term, at the end of President Biden's administration. This was widely expected.
But there is some concern among those in the industry at the FBI, Justice Department officials, about the precedent that this sets as to not wait and
let Donald Trump make this unorthodox decision by firing him before he would resign, just for the principle alone of the independence of the
organization, and to really claw back some of what people believed were overreaching powers that the FBI once had under the likes of Hoover and
during the era of Watergate, especially now that Trump has stated that he plans to appoint a loyalist like Kash Patel to the post.
What do you make of that, the longer-term ramifications? I know that it's his right to fire an FBI director, but these 10-year terms are set to avoid
the optics of any sort of impropriety and avoid the optics of the FBI not being an independent organization.
JENNINGS: Well, I sort of quibble with the idea that it's independent. It exists in the executive branch. And the person is appointed by the
president. I personally believe in the unitary executive theory, which means the president's the head of the executive branch, and he can hire and
fire people in there as he chooses.
Take Trump out of it, though, for a second, and look what's happened to the FBI over the last 10 years. There was some Gallup polling released recently
that showed the cratering of confidence that the American people have in the FBI. It used to have a very high approval rating. Now it's something
like 40 percent.
A lot of this has happened on Christopher Wray's watch. There have been inspector general reports that he has had to respond to that have shown
chapter and verse just how the FBI made serious mistakes internally with investigations and the way they treated American citizens that led to this
cratering of public confidence.
So take Trump out of it for a second. I actually think it's right for Christopher Wray to resign. He's presided over what I think has been a
disastrous period for the FBI. This agency is important and it needs to be trusted by the American people.
And if you have overseen this massive loss of institutional trust, what choice do you have but to resign? And what choice does Donald Trump have
but to bring in an outsider who can maybe clean things up, shake things up, and really try to reform an agency?
It's important. It's vital. We need a strong and trusted FBI. But we obviously don't have that right now. And not only have the American people
lost trust in him, but a lot of people on Capitol Hill have as well.
[12:20:05]
So I think a lot of this is being pinned on Trump. But a lot of Christopher Wray's political problems or image problems were brought on by him and by
what happened in the agency while he was the director.
ASHER: Scott Jennings live for us there, thank you so much.
GOLODRYGA: Thanks Scott.
ASHER: All right. The White House says that Joe Biden has set a record. The U.S. president today commuted the sentences of some 1,500 people convicted
of crimes in one fell swoop. He also issued pardons to 39 nonviolent criminals. It is the largest single act of clemency in presidential
history.
And sources said the individuals whose sentences were commuted had been under home confinement since the COVID pandemic and demonstrated a
commitment to rehabilitation and also helping their community as well.
GOLODRYGA: Well, South Korea's president says he won't go. That's despite protesters at his front door literally and his own party ready to take a
drastic step. We'll update you on the crisis after the break.
ASHER: But first, key evidence ties Luigi Mangione to the scene of the healthcare CEO's murder. Why his lawyer says that it proves nothing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: South Korea's president delivered a defiant speech earlier on Thursday. His aim was to justify his declaring martial law back on December
3rd.
ASHER: Yes. Yoon Suk Yeol's own party, the People Power Party, was unmoved and is throwing its support behind impeachment. They had hoped he'd
resigned, but he is still remaining defiant.
And outside President Yoon's home, protesters clashed with police earlier. The protesters carried signs demanding Yoon be arrested and tried to enter
his residence, but obviously they were blocked. Another impeachment vote is expected on Saturday.
All right. New York investigators are retracing Luigi Mangione's steps before his arrest for the murder of healthcare CEO, Brian Thompson.
GOLODRYGA: All this, as police say, shell casings and a water bottle and an energy bar wrapper all point to Mangione being at the scene. Brynn Gingras
has the details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): While Luigi Mangione sits alone in a Pennsylvania jail cell, police say they now have crucial
connections between the 26-year-old and the Manhattan crime scene.
JESSICA TISCH, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: First, we got the gun in question back from Pennsylvania. It's now at the NYPD crime lab. We were
able to match that gun to the three shell casings that we found in midtown at the scene of the homicide.
GINGRAS (voice-over): The NYPD commissioner also confirming what CNN first reported. Mangione's fingerprints match evidence found where UnitedHealth
CEO Brian Thompson was gunned down a week ago.
[12:25:10]
TISCH: We were also able in our crime lab to match the person of interest's fingerprints with fingerprints that we found on both the water bottle and
the KIND bar near the scene of the homicide.
GINGRAS (voice-over): Sources also telling CNN a to-do list on how to carry out a killing was found in the pages of a spiral notebook along with notes
justifying the plan, suggesting what could better than, quote, to kill the CEO at his own bean counting conference.
LUIGI MANGIONE, ACCUSED OF KILLING HEALTHCARE CEO: It's completely out of touch and an insult to the intelligence of the American people. It's lived
experience.
GINGRAS (voice-over): Investigators are also working to track his whereabouts days, weeks, months before the murder.
A hotel clerk telling ABC Mangione tried to check into this Altoona, Pennsylvania hotel before his arrest.
JOHN KUKLIS, HOTEL CLERK: There was somebody that checked in and the officer goes, did he have a mask on? Did he ever take a mask off? I think,
no, he never did take the mask off. He says, I'll be down there in five minutes, talk to you. And we pulled it up on surveillance, and sure stuff,
they go, yes, that's him.
GINGRAS (voice-over): In February, Mangione traveled to Japan and met Japanese poker player Obara Jun, who tweeted about having lunch with him in
Tokyo.
A month later, it appears the 26-year-old went backpacking in Thailand and told a fellow traveler he was in between jobs and was planning to return to
the U.S. in June. He stopped hearing from him in July, according to Reuters.
Mangione's neighbor in Hawaii says he ran into him three or four months ago after not seeing him for a long time.
CHRIS KWOCK, NEIGHBOR IN HAWAII: He was a nice guy. He, you know, said hi, we rode the elevator a couple times, always smiling, really good. So I just
asked him where he's been and for like six months he was like on the mainland. Like he just said medical stuff.
GINGRAS (voice-over): Then this summer, it seems as if Mangione fell off the grid as concerned friends reached out. I haven't heard from you in
months. One friend commented on X.
GINGRAS: And more about that missing persons report filed by Mangione's mother. A source telling CNN that she told police she did it because she
tried calling her son's personal phone, his work phone where he was working at the time and everything was going to voicemail. And she said she was
worried about him, but she was not worried that he was a danger to himself or to others.
Brynn Gingras, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: For the most part, most search engines and social media sites will provide you with news for free.
ASHER: Australian lawmakers, however, want to put an end to that. They want big tech firms to pay Australian media companies for news content.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. The government says it creates a financial incentive for companies like Meta and Google to pay news outlets. A spokesman for
Facebook's owner, Meta, says just being on its platform provides value for publishers.
ASHER: All right. Still to come, Syria's caretaker government says it's working to steer the country towards a new future. We'll look at the
challenges, ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:30:37]
ASHER: All right. Welcome back to ONE WORLD. I'm Zain Asher.
GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga.
Syria's political sands continue to shift.
ASHER: Yes. Rebel leader, Abu Mohammad al-Jolani telling Reuters, he will dissolve the security forces of the toppled regime of Bashar al-Assad and
close down notorious prisons, saying he's prepared to work with the U.S. to locate American citizens who went missing during the Assad regime.
GOLODRYGA: This as Secretary of State Antony Blinken is in Jordan meeting regional leaders to discuss the country's future. Now reality is on the
ground with dozens of competing factions fighting for territorial control could upset this volatile transition.
In Northern Syria, a pro-Turkish group that has been fighting U.S.-backed Kurdish forces in Northern Syria says a four-day ceasefire is now under way
around the city of Manbij. The U.S. has been concerned that battles in that area could complicate efforts to prevent ISIS from regrouping.
And U.S. National Security Adviser, Jake Sullivan, is in Israel to talk about Syria and other regional issues.
ASHER: Yes. Earlier, he met with Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. The two discussed the situation in Syria and regional
developments as well. Sullivan told reporters at a news conference in Tel Aviv later that they are, quote, looking to close a Gaza hostage and
ceasefire deal. I want you to listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE SULLIVAN, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I got the sense today from the prime minister, he's ready to do a deal.
And when I go to Doha and Cairo, my goal will be to put us in a position to be able to close this deal. This month, not later.
Now, we've been closed before and haven't gotten there, so I can't make any promises or predictions to you. But I wouldn't be here today if I thought
this thing was just waiting until after January 20th.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: CNN's Jeremy Diamond is in Tel Aviv for us.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: The national security adviser made clear -- made clear that he is optimistic about the future progress of
a hostage and ceasefire deal, but he also made clear that they have been close before when it comes to these negotiations. And so he would not say
that a deal will indeed be achieved, but he did say that there is cause for optimism.
He explained why he believes that's the case. First of all, he said that the ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon may have changed
Hamas' position. We've heard that repeatedly, of course, from U.S. and Israeli officials, but at this moment, Sullivan made clear that he believes
that the ceasefire in Lebanon changed Hamas' calculus and made them as he said adapt their posture at the negotiating table.
At the same time, he also indicated that there have been some changes on the Israeli side that the military successes that Israel has achieved in
Gaza as it relates to killing Sinwar to dismantling Hamas' military structures inside the Gaza Strip that that may also be contributing to
getting the two sides closer potentially to a deal here.
So from Israel, the national security adviser is now heading to Doha, Qatar, as well as to Cairo, Egypt, where, of course, the two key mediators
in these negotiations are based. And he said that his goal is to, quote, put us in a position to close this deal this month.
Again, staying clear of saying that this deal can happen, will happen this month, but clearly making no bones about the fact that these negotiations
are at a critical juncture at this time. And that there is the possibility in the air of closing things out.
He also made clear that both President Biden and the incoming President Trump are both eager to see a hostage and ceasefire deal. And he doesn't
believe that Israel will wait until Trump comes into office to reach that deal.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[12:35:10]
ASHER: All right. Time now for The Exchange. We want to focus on the aftermath of the fall of the Assad regime. We've got two guests to discuss
the fast-moving developments. We've got Alon Pinkas, who is former Israeli consul general for New York. He joins us live now from Tel Aviv, Israel.
And Jasmine El-Gamal, a former Pentagon Middle East adviser who joins us from London. So good to see you both.
Alon, let me start with you, because as you know, over the past sort of year and a couple of months of this war between Israel and Gaza, a lot of
people have accused Netanyahu of prolonging that war against Hamas for his own political advantage and, of course, to keep himself in power and out of
jail as well.
We are getting some indication that there is movement in terms of potential ceasefire hostage deal, including the fact that Hamas has now said that
they are content with possibly allowing an IDF presence in Gaza, at least temporarily, while the hostages are released.
Just walk us through why you think Netanyahu, at this point in time, would be willing to agree to a ceasefire deal, especially given that he's been
delaying it. A lot of Israelis believe this, delaying it for so long for his own political advantage. Why now and what has changed?
ALON PINKAS, FORMER ISRAELI CONSUL GENERAL, NEW YORK: Well, the delays, Zain, exhausted its usefulness, and he is under pressure from president-
elect or the designated president Donald Trump to wrap this up before January 20th.
Now, we don't know the exact details of this hostage deal and ceasefire and realignment of the IDF in Gaza. So, you know, we can only be -- we can only
comment intelligently after it's been done.
But look, this deal from the little we know about the contours and the details of it, this deal couldn't should have been reached last November of
2023 and again in December. And again, and again in March and April when it was negotiated.
And Mr. Netanyahu did prolong the war purposely. And he did intentionally sacrifice the hostages. And he did lie more than once to the American
administration, reneging on agreements that he himself proposed.
The only reason that he's doing this now has to do with the pressure or the appearance of pressure from President-elect Trump and to a lesser extent,
the fact that the war in Gaza, for all intents and purposes, is over.
Israel reached some kind of a ceasefire, a circumstantial tenure with ceasefire in South Lebanon. But now it is stretch even thinner because of
Israeli activity in Syria.
So he felt that this is the time to reach an agreement. I wouldn't be surprised that this would be a partial agreement, not to hold view.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And it's important to remember that former Defense Minister Gallant and the entirety of the security establishment back last summer
said that the situation was ripe for a deal at that time too, that they felt that the security of Israelis was in place enough to facilitate a deal
that could see hostages return back in July.
Jasmine, let me turn to you, because we did hear from Secretary of State Blinken, who's in Jordan. And tomorrow we should note, he will be in
Ankara, say that the role of the Kurdish-led SDF fighters was, quote, critical to preventing a resurgence of Islamic State jihadists in Syria
following Bashar Assad's ouster.
And this is where things get complicated between these two NATO allies, Turkey and the United States. They have divergent interests where Turkey
views these Kurdish fighters as terrorists. The United States views them as allies. How do you see this playing out? And what is the message you think,
Antony Blinken, should be delivering tomorrow in Ankara?
JASMINE EL-GAMAL, FORMER PENTAGON MIDDLE EAST ADVISER: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. That's a really important question. And I think
it comes to -- it really gets to the -- to the main worry that the U.S. and other neighboring countries around Syria have when it comes to this really
sudden, really shocking transition in Syria.
They worry about a power vacuum that could lead to a resurgence of ISIS. You know, that's how ISIS was able to gain power in certain parts of Syria
back in, you know, 2012, '13, '14 and onwards.
And so, really, the message coming from Secretary Blinken, the message from King Abdullah in their meetings on his trip, and really the message from
everyone who was concerned about the stability of a future Syrian government is, we need to avoid a power vacuum.
[12:40:02]
And it is not in anyone's interest to allow for or enable any kind of infighting among all the different groups that are now and have been
present in Syria. And so it is in the interest of Turkey and the SDF to work together for the U.S. to continue to be involved in the counter-ISIS
mission.
Because as we've seen in the past, and not just in Syria, but I mean we've seen this in Iraq as well after the invasion and the power vacuum that was
left in Iraq that the people who benefit from that power vacuum are the extremists. And so that's one thing that the majority of parties involved
in Syria and the bordering countries are worried about and are in agreement about is preventing that power vacuum from taking place.
ASHER: And, of course, one country that is very concerned about that is, of course, Israel.
Alon, let me turn back to you because Israel carried out at least 480 strikes, at least, this week on Syrian soil. And Israel said on Thursday
that its military is actually going to stay on Syrian territory until a new force, a new force is established that meets its security demands.
Just walk us through what those demands might be, what those demands actually look like and Israel's greatest concern as well at this point in
time.
PINKAS: Well, Israel's greatest concern is exactly what Jasmine just said and that is a resurgence of ISIS or an ISIS-like infrastructure in Syria.
And let's not forget that HTS and Mr. Muhammad al-Jolani, he's saying all the right things now, but he is a splinter group of al-Qaeda and ISIS in
different variations.
So what Israel is dealing with right now is much like Jordan is or Iraq is or the U.S. and Turkey is, and that is who will control Syria? How will
Syria be governed? Will it remain -- will it maintain rather?
It's territorial integrity that has that already been eroded throughout the Civil War or will it splinter within a year into four or five semi-
autonomous regions?
Now in order to prevent any kind of infiltration of jihadist elements of various organizations, whose names I don't even know yet, into areas close
to the Israeli border, Israel went on a precautionary and preventive military strike against naval targets, airfields, airplanes, weapons depots
and even a minor, well, it may not be minor but a relatively small territorial incursion into Syria.
What I think Israel should do to prove its intentions are just are just -- are, you know, impermanent is to set up a huge field hospital in the areas
where it already -- where it is positioned.
Because there are tens of thousands of both Jews and Bedouins who are fleeing the areas in southeastern Syria. And that would be a good sign for
Israel toward whomever is going to govern Syria. That Israel has no intentions of a land crab but, you know, saying this is easier than
actually doing it.
GOLODRYGA: And, Jasmine, we did hear from national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, in Israel today where he stated that the balance of powers in the
Middle East really has shifted significantly since October 7th of last year and not in the favor of Iran or its proxies. And I would add to that at
least temporarily Russia as well.
So I'd like you to respond to what at least the Russian defense ministry is saying right now and that they apparently have an informal understanding
worked out with HTS that would allow them to keep both their naval and their military bases in Syria.
What do you make of that? And what, if anything, can the United States should the United States be doing both in the last month of Biden's
administration and more importantly as Trump is set to begin his term in a way of taking advantage of this opportunity and allowing Russian to no
longer have a stronghold there?
EL-GAMAL: Those are all great questions and they're exactly the kinds of questions that we should be thinking about right now and looking at and
monitoring.
So let me just start with what Jake Sullivan said because I was actually watching his press conference. And I noted that he said that this is the
beginning of a different Middle East. And it is one where Iran is weaker and where Israel is stronger.
Now that is undoubtedly true from a military and security perspective at the moment, in the current moment that we're in. Hezbollah has been
completely decimated. Hamas has been decimated. Iran has lost its lifeline to Hezbollah through Syria. It lost its ally in Syria. President Bashar al-
Assad, although at the end Assad had kind of become a liability for Iran and Russia, if anything.
[12:45:20]
But it is quite true that militarily that Israel has emerged from this stronger and Iran weaker. I would very much caution though at trying -- at
looking at this as a long-term security victory for Israel and a loss for Iran.
Because at the same time that Israel has had all of these military successes, there are also a lot of issues that have not been resolved,
diplomatic issues, political issues. There's still the long-term issue of Israel, Palestine, and whether there will be a two-state solution or not.
There is the long-term solution of how Hezbollah is going to whether it's going to turn into a purely political force in Lebanon or whether it will
try to regroup. And, of course, one can assume, we can only assume that Iran will not let go of its regional ambitions and will try to find a way
over the next few years to regroup. And now we have Syria as well.
And what I worried about when I saw these Israeli strikes into Syria, they're bombing, not just chemical weapons sites, but military
infrastructure as well, is that they're essentially going in and before giving a chance for Syrians to decide what their future looks like and to
put together a transitional government and one beyond that is more permanent, that they've decided that the situation in Syria is either Assad
or terrorists. And you get the sense that that's the way the U.S. is talking about it as well.
And from experience, when you have such a binary view of the region, it ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy. And so I would just caution
against Israeli military action in Syria that might end up, A, giving groups like ISIS an excuse to recruit people into their organizations using
Israeli strikes and land grabs as an excuse. And secondly, uniting groups and people that may not otherwise have much in common to that common enemy
of Israel. So that's just from sort of a short-term versus long-term perspective.
In terms of HTS, I'll say quickly that Jolani has been, like Alon said, saying all the right things, doing all the right things. They've been
indicating that they're open to hearing criticisms from Syrians about the way they're going about these early days and that they're willing to talk
to outside actors as well to figure out what the best way is forward.
They're not making any huge decisions like the Russians must go or the Iranians must do this. Or they're not even saying anything about the
Israelis right now. So they're really taking it step by step. And I think keeping quite an open mind in terms of how the future proceeds.
And when it comes to, quickly I'll say about the U.S., I think the U.S. should do a couple of things quickly. One is consider the sanctions that
they have on Syria and what might be taken off to allow for more ease of dealing with the parties in Syria at the moment, getting critical
humanitarian assistance in and other assistance into Syria, and then thinking about how they want to approach HTS.
It's still listed as a foreign terrorist organization. There is an opportunity, I believe, here to shape HTS's movements going forward by
saying that the terrorist designation is not a permanent thing, but one that can be removed if HTS says and does the right things moving forward.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. If being the really important word here, because we have yet to see how things will ultimately play out.
All right. Jasmine El-Gamal, Alon Pinkas, thank you so much.
ASHER: Thank you both.
GOLODRYGA: Really interesting conversation. Appreciate it.
EL-GAMAL: Thank you.
ASHER: We'll be right back with more after the short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:50:16]
ASHER: All right. One police department in Northern New Jersey said they've received 11 reports of drones flying in the sky over the last few weeks.
Now the FBI says they're looking into it.
GOLODRYGA: Such a bizarre story. So what is going on in New Jersey? CNN's Gary Tuchman has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Questions abound about what these moving lights in the sky are, but there seems to be
certainty about what they are not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It definitely wasn't a plane because it was too low. And it was also going back and forth and then forwards and backwards.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Mark Taylor is the Mayor of Florham Park, New Jersey.
MARK TAYLOR, MAYOR OF FLORHAM PARK IN NEW JERSEY: They look like a small car to me. Their wing spans are probably six feet across.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): What they appear to be, are drones, clusters of unidentified drones flying much lower than a plane would.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think the creepy part is not that it's just a drone that they're so large.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): In New Jersey's Ocean County, sheriff's deputies took their own video of the drones.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We saw something flying a little low, so we took some video of it, you know, and not really sure what it was, definitely
something flying low and fast.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Lower, faster and larger than a recreational drone, says the deputy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was coming our direction. It spun around the 180 degrees. Went back out the other way, then it kind of looped around and
then took off past us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Planes, they have, you know, a white tail light coming from them, and each wing has a different color, whether it be red or green.
Whatever it is, it's different.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Understandably, there is concern. The drones are occasionally flying near military facilities, but the Pentagon knocked down
this social media post.
New Jersey Republican Congressman Jeff Van Drew who claimed on X that the drones are, quote, possibly linked to a missing Iranian mothership.
SABRINA SINGH, DEPUTY PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: There is not any truth to that. There is no Iranian ship off the coast of the United States, and
there's no so-called mothership launching drones towards the United States.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): But it's all still a mystery. Homeland Security and FBI officials in New Jersey have just met with state and local lawmakers.
They and the state's governor have stressed the drones do not appear to threaten public safety, nevertheless.
TAYLOR: People are calling myself, my home, you know, just -- it's one of those things where they are alarmed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's definitely something, and we're just going to be looking into it a little bit more to see if we can figure it out.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Gary Tuchman, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:55:06]
GOLODRYGA: And finally, a squirrel stuck in a tree is the winner of the Comedy Wildlife Photo of the Year. Italian photographer, Milko Marchetti,
caught this image of a red squirrel struggling to get into his hiding spot.
ASHER: The contest is sponsored by the Nikon camera company. Marchetti's prize is a week-long safari in Kenya for him and a guest.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Hope he has fun. That does it for this hour of ONE WORLD. I'm Bianna Golodryga.
ASHER: I'm Zain Asher. I appreciate you watching. "AMANPOUR" is up next. You're watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
